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Microsoft Piles -- er Stacks?
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jxyama
macrumors 68040
for clearing the desktop feature common in both windows and panther/expose, i think the intent is a little different.
in windows, i think its intent was to minimize all the windows. not much more than that. i *think* the main goal was to clear up the windows - and as a consequence, the desktop shows up. it's a toggle, which shows that the window minimizatin was the goal.
for panther, i think it's subtly different. since when this function is invoked in expose, you see the windows slide off to the edges - and only while you press the F key. i'd say the intent is to clear the windows temporarily in order to access the desktop. it's not the windows that's the subject of the function - it's the access to desktop that's important, not the cleaning of windows..
very subtle and probably indistinguishable and i claim no lack of bias in my part. and as i said before, i don't really care who invented it, as long as it's elegantly and functionally done for my OS of choice. (that would be OS X, of course.)
in windows, i think its intent was to minimize all the windows. not much more than that. i *think* the main goal was to clear up the windows - and as a consequence, the desktop shows up. it's a toggle, which shows that the window minimizatin was the goal.
for panther, i think it's subtly different. since when this function is invoked in expose, you see the windows slide off to the edges - and only while you press the F key. i'd say the intent is to clear the windows temporarily in order to access the desktop. it's not the windows that's the subject of the function - it's the access to desktop that's important, not the cleaning of windows..
very subtle and probably indistinguishable and i claim no lack of bias in my part. and as i said before, i don't really care who invented it, as long as it's elegantly and functionally done for my OS of choice. (that would be OS X, of course.)
Rower_CPU
Moderator emeritus
Well, I guess we should all just shut up and go home then. 🙄
What's "truth" to you isn't necessarily so for anyone else. People have showed over and over and over how the feature you said Apple "copied" is obviously different from its Windows counterpart. And yet you persist...
This whole argument is pointless. In the current desktop metaphor of computing, there are a finite number of UI interactions. Do you hear Mac users point out that Windows stole the Mac OS' concepts of menus, windows, icons, etc. (which were derived from Xerox's work at the PARC)? No.
Give it a rest, 1adonis1.
What's "truth" to you isn't necessarily so for anyone else. People have showed over and over and over how the feature you said Apple "copied" is obviously different from its Windows counterpart. And yet you persist...
This whole argument is pointless. In the current desktop metaphor of computing, there are a finite number of UI interactions. Do you hear Mac users point out that Windows stole the Mac OS' concepts of menus, windows, icons, etc. (which were derived from Xerox's work at the PARC)? No.
Give it a rest, 1adonis1.
stcanard
macrumors 65816
Actually, the difference in the functions between windows show desktop, and expose's expose dektop is very distinguishable with my work pattern.
I currently have 16 windows open on my desktop, 10 of them terminal windows. (it's a low count, if I was coding instead of just debugging I could double that with editor windows too). Terminal windows don't get named well, so I identify them postionally (all windows on the top, right are tailing log files, all windows on the bottom, left are for running commands, windows in the middle of the screen are my working "temporary" windows, etc)
Windows that are on the desktop are actively in use. Windows that are minimized are for tasks that I'm not currently working on (think of it as a desktop version of virual memory)
I'm in Windows now. If I want to look for something that's only on my desktop, I have to carefully drag windows to the side until I expose the icon, while trying to not move them too far out of their position when I will start to confuse their purpose. It's a royal pain. If I try to use show desktop, then open a new application, I lose the careful partitioning of used / paged out applications.
If I was able to use expose, one button exposes my desktop, I open the application / document I want, and everything immediately comes back into the right place.
The difference in usability is stunning. Now when you combine that with the expose show all / tab trick on osxhints, I can easily manage a dozen terminal windows, a dozen editor windows, and several browser windows without ever getting lost.
Fast User Switching
I think apple covered it by modifying original patent for Newton to update it with "Multiple persona", i guess. Apple is going to use that to show prior case if MS comes knocking. But apple have a chance to fight with MS on "piles" though.
I think apple covered it by modifying original patent for Newton to update it with "Multiple persona", i guess. Apple is going to use that to show prior case if MS comes knocking. But apple have a chance to fight with MS on "piles" though.
Fukui
macrumors 68000
Re: Re: Here are some visuals of Longhorn
Anyways, ironically I did use a thesuarus....the one in MS word.
Aside from getting into a retarded and useless argument about semantics, your example shows a problem, copy and similar are synonyms to the word equivalence, not to each other...
Anyways, ironically I did use a thesuarus....the one in MS word.
iPC
macrumors 6502
Re: Re: Re: Here are some visuals of Longhorn
To me, similar does not equal copy. Duplicate equals copy however. There are differences in the implementations. Apple went from being behind, to jumping ahead. This is what they do. They are very rarely first to market with an all new thing, but they do usually make improvements worth noticing.
--
10 terminals open - you need a terminal app that does tabs. Then you could have 2 or 3 open (for side to side comparisons when you need it) windows instead of 10.
I happen to agree with you. I was just showing the jump in logic the other poster was probably using. I was a engineering major, so I usually don't care about semantics unless we are discussing accuracy vs. precision. 😉
To me, similar does not equal copy. Duplicate equals copy however. There are differences in the implementations. Apple went from being behind, to jumping ahead. This is what they do. They are very rarely first to market with an all new thing, but they do usually make improvements worth noticing.
--
10 terminals open - you need a terminal app that does tabs. Then you could have 2 or 3 open (for side to side comparisons when you need it) windows instead of 10.
jxyama
macrumors 68040
Re: Re: Re: Re: Here are some visuals of Longhorn
probably not "all new" thing but they do a pretty good job of introducing something useful to the masses in a very functional package. (superdrive, wireless, wireless-g, iTMS, firewire, usb, etc. none of these were invented by apple, with the exception of firewire and iTMS, but apple definitely was the first to implement them to be used by much wider audience than the original inventor.)
i tend to think adopting the technology to be usable/available to the masses is almost worth equal in praise as the original invention. who made the transistor radios available to the public to be useful - sony or engineers that invented transistors?
probably not "all new" thing but they do a pretty good job of introducing something useful to the masses in a very functional package. (superdrive, wireless, wireless-g, iTMS, firewire, usb, etc. none of these were invented by apple, with the exception of firewire and iTMS, but apple definitely was the first to implement them to be used by much wider audience than the original inventor.)
i tend to think adopting the technology to be usable/available to the masses is almost worth equal in praise as the original invention. who made the transistor radios available to the public to be useful - sony or engineers that invented transistors?
iPC
macrumors 6502
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here are some visuals of Longhorn
http://www.linksys.com/press/press.asp?prid=107&cyear=2003
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/01/07/airport/
Above are links just an example...
superdrive and 802.11g are 2 recent examples of Apple _NOT_ being first to market. Linksys 802.11g routers were out months before Airport Extreme was available. IIRC, the Pioneer DVD-R drive Apple used was available for sale well before it was included in PowerMacs. I think Apple was first with firewire, and they used USB before anyone else important, again, IIRC. iTMS does not count, as it is a service, and it is definitely _NOT_ first to market as a place to buy music files online (essentially all that iTMS does - no matter how nicely).
http://www.linksys.com/press/press.asp?prid=107&cyear=2003
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/01/07/airport/
Above are links just an example...
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
Sorry - Sony was shipping iLink standard on its Windows systems before Apple included it on any Mac.
You are right here, due to careful choice of language.
USB ports were standard on many PCs for at least a year before the iMac shipped.
Few of the USB ports on PCs were actually *used*, however, since the PCs had alternate ports and the Windows support for USB was pretty poor before Windows 98....
Apple brought out the iMac with *only* USB expansion at this time, and jump started the moribund USB industry.
Rower_CPU
Moderator emeritus
Link?
Apple had Firewire on Macs in January, 1999.
http://www.apple-history.com/noframes/body.php?page=gallery&model=g3blue
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
Even COMPAQ had 1394 before Apple!
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9812/10/tophome.idg/
There were earlier systems as well, but a magazine review from December 1998 pretty much destroys any claim that the B&W G3 was first.
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9812/10/tophome.idg/
There were earlier systems as well, but a magazine review from December 1998 pretty much destroys any claim that the B&W G3 was first.
Phil Of Mac
macrumors 68020
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here are some visuals of Longhorn
DVD authoring used to require dedicated hardware (other than the drive itself). Apple innovated in accomplishing it in software at a fast enough rate to be useful.
Apple invented FireWire.
DVD authoring used to require dedicated hardware (other than the drive itself). Apple innovated in accomplishing it in software at a fast enough rate to be useful.
Apple invented FireWire.
jxyama
macrumors 68040
i never said apple was the first to use the technology or make it available. i said available to the general public in useful (configured) way. it's one thing to say there were external devices you can use for dvd-r or wireless-g before apple included them - i know that and i don't dispute that - but another thing to say they came standard (or as an option), pre-configured with functional software bundled to make them usable to any joe schmoe.
before sony put together transistor radio, any techies with knowledge of transistors could have done the same. that still doesn't take away from sony making it widely available to the public by offering it in the form that's usable and cost effective. if the technology is there but is not used, then what's the point?
i'm not interested at all who invents what. all i'm interested in is who makes those inventions available and useful to me.
before sony put together transistor radio, any techies with knowledge of transistors could have done the same. that still doesn't take away from sony making it widely available to the public by offering it in the form that's usable and cost effective. if the technology is there but is not used, then what's the point?
i'm not interested at all who invents what. all i'm interested in is who makes those inventions available and useful to me.
Re: Re: UNIX troll
BTW, I stopped responding to the troll because I think his posts stand by themselves. Heck, maybe it'd cause a few people to scroll back and read my post to see what he's trolling.
(3) is a really bad idea. Classic Mac zealot David K. Every ruined a perfectly good critique of Panther by trying to use Fast User Switching as a substitute for Virtual Desktops.
I'm going to have to side with Aiden here. The salient points of "FUS" is the concept of multiple logins and on the desktop. The only way I can do FUS in the Unix world is to use Virtual Network Computer (VNC). Yes, I've been using multiple logins for years, heck, I've been using multiple X sessions for years, but until FUS, I wasn't using multiple logins on a physical machine.
Not that I'm using FUS today. My roomates however like it. They're using my mac fileserver much more, much to my chagrin.
Too bad you can't leave iTunes running, it'd be nice if my roomate can leave iTunes open so he can access his music share over Rendezvous when my other roomate wants to listen to his crap.
BTW, I stopped responding to the troll because I think his posts stand by themselves. Heck, maybe it'd cause a few people to scroll back and read my post to see what he's trolling.
(3) is a really bad idea. Classic Mac zealot David K. Every ruined a perfectly good critique of Panther by trying to use Fast User Switching as a substitute for Virtual Desktops.
I'm going to have to side with Aiden here. The salient points of "FUS" is the concept of multiple logins and on the desktop. The only way I can do FUS in the Unix world is to use Virtual Network Computer (VNC). Yes, I've been using multiple logins for years, heck, I've been using multiple X sessions for years, but until FUS, I wasn't using multiple logins on a physical machine.
Not that I'm using FUS today. My roomates however like it. They're using my mac fileserver much more, much to my chagrin.
Too bad you can't leave iTunes running, it'd be nice if my roomate can leave iTunes open so he can access his music share over Rendezvous when my other roomate wants to listen to his crap.
Well, no one seems to have mentioned what happens when you right click on the start bar thingy. You get a menu with, among other things, "cascade windows", "tile windows horizontally", "tile windows vertically", "show desktop" ... etc
these have a similar effect as expose, but keep the windows in place (ie, used for arranging windows, not finding misplaced ones). If you like, you can right click again, and select "undo tile". Not sure who all the bozos where offering up bets that "windows apologists" have not used expose (I have, btw) but it seems they haven't used XP.
All this said, I agree with the Kid's point about smooth transitions. Makes it more pleasant, but it is still pretty clear that the *functionality* of expose is in XP (caveat: "omg omg, but is is not functional without the smooth transition and... and... WAAAAAA!!!" folks can bite me.)
you can bite me you little sh*t. next what you are talking about is nothing like expose and you know it. you are a pc troll. have you even tried expose? i thought not. then shut your hole.
jxyama
macrumors 68040
ok, it's not cool to start cursing and such, guys. i don't know why this happens on online boards. people say things they wouldn't in person.
i guess some of us are very adament about XP and expose and such... all i can say is, i've used XP and it was never advertized to me of all those "features." at least apple told me that such features are available and i've found them to be very useful. i'll try XP stuff when get home on my gf's dell.
i guess some of us are very adament about XP and expose and such... all i can say is, i've used XP and it was never advertized to me of all those "features." at least apple told me that such features are available and i've found them to be very useful. i'll try XP stuff when get home on my gf's dell.
Good. I will bet $20 that you wont like it as much as expose, but it *will* make you feel a little differently about the degree of Apple's innovation with expose.
Everyone else should try it out too, if only so that you can more clearly express why you like expose more. You won't win any converts with uninformed soapboxing. (or you should feel guilty about it, anyhow) 🙂