Microsoft Remains on Offensive with 'Apple Tax' Report and Latest Laptop Ad

[rotta]

Hi, my name is Prof. and I'm a Mac because I like my computers to last longer than 2 years.

Maybe, but after Apple tax you can buy 3 PC's for the price of one comparable Mac. A 2 year old Mac is not that hot anymore...

After the last "upgrade" the price of one Mac Pro is silly. I don't like it, but my next desktop will probably be a PC.

Guess I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person after all. Sadly, I already got 3 of them, but.....

 

[OldMike]

Maybe Apple should seriously consider taking the iMac, MBP, and the XServe to a business stance and REALLY push for it - highlight it for a serious business; something with IMPACT in their respective industry and widely known. Its time Apple kick Microsoft in their money maker ... the corporate industry.

+1

It seems as though there will be a firesale going on over at SUN soon. Apple should acquire Sun on the cheap - and make a break for the enterprise. I'm sure it wouldn't take too much work to get OS X to run on Sparc servers. For that matter, I'm sure it would also be possible to swap Darwin/BSD for Solaris as the core to the OS X operating system. Having the best Unix front end on the most reliable and scalable Unix backend, all with Apple's ease of use - would just be an unstoppable force in the enterprise datacenter...

 

[southernpaws]

No it wouldn't. If you have multiple photoshop files open, they would appear ONLY if you RIGHT clicked on the dock bar and it depends for other programs. It wouldn't work for flash or dreamwever.
Windows 7 replicates this same function BUT fixes apple's issue by having an mini-expose on EACH taskbar item on hover.

Good point. I didn't think about that situation.

That being said, I still prefer expose activated by hot corners/gestures to the taskbar, especially in situations where the taskbar would get crowded and start collapsing. having hot corners set for desktop/all windows/application windows has been pretty efficient, but i'm sure that just boils down to a matter of preference.

As for Windows 7, it hasn't been released yet, so for now i just have to go on current features for comparison.

 

[guzzlamiamor]

Maybe, but after Apple tax you can buy 3 PC's for the price of one comparable Mac. A 2 year old Mac is not that hot anymore...

After the last "upgrade" the price of one Mac Pro is silly. I don't like it, but my next desktop will probably be a PC.

Guess I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person after all. Sadly, I already got 3 of them, but.....

You can buy 3 13 inch notebooks for 1200 that are comparable to a Macbook? I must have missed the 400.00 premium notebook sale. Same analogy for an iMac. It has nothing to do with being cool. I don't drive a BMW because I can't afford to buy one, but if I could I would. "I am not cool enough to be a Mac person" is another way of saying I can't afford, or don't want to pay a premium price for what is in many ways a premium product.

 

[dL.]

Also, If you jump between Dreamweaver, Photoshop, and Flash.....Windows is better. With OSX, you gotta bring up expose, find the correct window, then click it. With Windows, you just click it on the taskbar. Expose is better when you're switching once a minute and Windows Taskbar is better if you switch every 20 seconds....productivity wise.

I disagree. Expose allows me to see the visual of the file that I am about to switch over, whereas Windows would only allow me to see the filename (if I have saved it) and also a super tiny preview if you hover it for a second in Vista.

Windows 7 may be another ball game, but for now, no.

Hence why I personally prefer designing on a 13.3" Macbook than a PC desktop with 20".

dL

 

[rotta]

You can buy 3 13 inch notebooks for 1200 that are comparable to a Macbook? I must have missed the 400.00 premium notebook sale. Same analogy for an iMac. It has nothing to do with being cool. I don't drive a BMW because I can't afford to buy one, but if I could I would. "I am not cool enough to be a Mac person" is another way of saying I can't afford, or don't want to pay a premium price for what is in many ways a premium product.

Guess I can buy any PC / Mac I want, but I ain't stupid. Photoshop / Lightroom / Premiere / After Effects run just as well on a PC.
Apple is rich enough already, got more $$ in the bank than I do...

 

[djellison]

Geez, save your PCI-X slots and use USB tuners instead. Also, get an X-FI and enable the crystallizer function. You will never listen to audio/video on a macbook ever again after listening to an X-FI.

That's good call. £1500+ MBP's, £1000+ MB's.... and they ALL have audio hiss from their outputs.

£300 HP laptops nextdoor - no hiss.
£500 HP and IBM laptops at work ( >30 of them ) - no hiss.

Oh - and the viewing angle on ALL those HP's and IBM's is better than my Macbook. As is the viewing angle on my £300 netbook.

Apple don't just charge over the odds - they use some rather crap components. This is why the car analogy fails so catastrophically.

 

[Lesser Evets]

am i poor for spending $2000 on a computer that isnt a Mac?

Poor, yes.

In the wallet, no.

 

[guzzlamiamor]

Guess I can buy any PC / Mac I want, but I ain't stupid. Photoshop / Lightroom / Premiere / After Effects run just as well on a PC.
Apple is rich enough already, got more $$ in the bank than I do...

I don't base my computing choices on how well Adobe's bloatware will run. In fact, I started using Acorn, which is a nifty little photo editor for Mac. Does everything that Elements does and uses up less resources, needs 1/10th the space, and costs about 1/3. I can't speak to how well the programs you mentioned run on either machine because I don't use any of them.

 

[Journojulz]

Seriously PC designers do not understand aesthetics

Interviewer: what do you think of your competitors..
Jobs: they have no taste

 

[dL.]

vista IS more reliable when it tells you WTF is going on

you tell me whats wrong with the computer based on these 2 error messages

right away with the bluescreen and 2 seconds of google, its my SATA/Raid drivers (which is easy to fix)

Agree, perhaps Apple should write a new KP database and number them so people can easily reference to the problem. That'd be sweet.

But anyways, the reason why it's so easy to google a BSOD is because there are a lot more people that have exposed to this already.

How often do people get a kernal panic in their Mac? For me, once on my iMac and none on my Macbook. Both are 1.5 years old.

Not saying my PC is bad. I rarely get BSOD but I did get about 10 over the last 2.5 years.

dL

 

[Eidorian]

Agree, perhaps Apple should write a new KP database and number them so people can easily reference to the problem. That'd be sweet.

But anyways, the reason why it's so easy to google a BSOD is because there are a lot more people that have exposed to this already.

How often do people get a kernal panic in their Mac? For me, once on my iMac and none on my Macbook. Both are 1.5 years old.

Not saying my PC is bad. I rarely get BSOD but I did get about 10 over the last 2.5 years.

dL

I've actually SEEN the kernel panic screen about twice in 4 years. Otherwise a hard system lock that I can't recover from is a little more common. Nothing gets logged either beyond, "Oh you restarted your system at this point". My money is on Safari or FireFox though. On the hardware side USB.

I don't base my computing choices on how well Adobe's bloatware will run. In fact, I started using Acorn, which is a nifty little photo editor for Mac. Does everything that Elements does and uses up less resources, needs 1/10th the space, and costs about 1/3. I can't speak to how well the programs you mentioned run on either machine because I don't use any of them.

Acorn is a little too rich for my blood when I have GIMP and a few other applications. That's just how I feel though. I got GraphicConverter in a MacUpdate bundle ages ago too.

 

[brop52]

It's called the console. Obviously it is hard to fish through it though to find what you want so I agree on that point. Usually it is due to RAM issues though so it's not hard to diagnose. Other than that third party add-ons are notorious.

 

[polaris20]

Don't try to lie. I never said this. I said that mac's cannot use X-FI. If you don't use an X-FI, you don't have a home theater system, PERIOD. Using an external DAC is lame and sounds very poor compared to Crystallizer.

External DAC is lame? Huh? Ever heard of Apogee? Ever heard of RME? Ever heard of Lynx?

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/mini-dac.php

You've got a $10K system, but you're running a $150 Creative?

 

[rotta]

I don't base my computing choices on how well Adobe's bloatware will run. In fact, I started using Acorn, which is a nifty little photo editor for Mac. Does everything that Elements does and uses up less resources, needs 1/10th the space, and costs about 1/3. I can't speak to how well the programs you mentioned run on either machine because I don't use any of them.

Well, whaddya know...
When I wanna buy a desktop, I want the space to use several HDs, lotsa HD video and thousands of photos. You may like Adobe or not, but their applications are sized to handle big files and a lot of them. The competition ain't that big...

More than 90% of the world run Adobe bloatware on a windows platform. Not my first choice, but they make it OK, I believe.
And a lot more bang for the buck.

 

[ericinboston]

But anyways, the reason why it's so easy to google a BSOD is because there are a lot more people that have exposed to this already.


How often do people get a kernal panic in their Mac? For me, once on my iMac and none on my Macbook. Both are 1.5 years old.
dL

I'm certainly not bashing Apple but this question/comment is one that drives me nuts.

The REASON why Mac folks *may* never get such a critical message is because Apple makes/guarantees the hardware...Apple makes the OS and guarantees that it will be 100% compatible with the hardware (that they R&D)...and Apple fully supports/guarantees any Mac you buy. Not to mention that for the last 10 years Apple Macs (except for the ridiculously prices $2800 Pros) are completely closed-box, black box solutions. Most people have no idea how to install a bigger driver or want to take a putty knife to their pretty Mini or iMac. You can argue that there is no reason to...but I beg to differ that after owning "a computer" for a few years that you may want to simply add more memory or a hard drive or a new dvd burner or even a better soundcard.

Because Apple controls 100% of the "system" they obviously have full control and R&D control over what parts go into their system.

Since PC land does not operate like Apple/Mac land (in that you can buy from billions of configurations), people like (and are allowed) to swap out or add stuff all the time and actually PC land promotes this act. Rarely it ends in a BSOD (I've gotten 2 since 1995 with NT 4.0 all the way up through XP Pro) and every time I've gotten the BSOD it's been a driver issue and had nothing to do with Microsoft or my system manufacturer...it was the video card manufacturer (for example). Again, it is super rare to get a BSOD and 99% of the time the true person to blame is the installer who didn't read & follow the instructions...or confirm the OS was supported (or patched)...

And the reason there are so many Google hits is pure math... when 90% of the world (billions of users...over time...that have been using Windows NT 3.5.1 through XP which has been 15 years of time) run on PC and not on Mac...all it takes is 1% of a billion users to generate a lot of hits/posts/questions/threads on some websites.

So...I just wanted to add some feedback to your comment about all those BSODs that people claim happen often.

-Eric

 

[Anuba]

If Macs are overpriced, then how come their sales have been increasing at such a nice price? Apparently people don't think that they are overproved. If they did, they would not be buying them.

Some people buy them and the market share has been improving over the last couple of years, but if you look at the whole picture it should be doing much, much better. Think about it...

- They have the iPod/iPhone/iTunes "halo" effect. Apple is no longer an obscure company, everyone is familiar with them these days.
- They get more exposure in movies and TV shows than any other brand, due to all the product placement. And it's not lacking in celebrity endorsements, either.
- Apple (as well as Mac users) are totally confident that if people only try out OS X, they will discover how great it is and switch at first opportunity.
- Vista has been a total flop, and there was never a better opportunity to get frustrated PC users to switch.
- Apple has been making computers for 25 years. Macs aren't some new thing that people are only beginning to discover, they've been around forever. The success of the iPhone has shown that even when a market is oversaturated with products and Apple joins the game long after everyone else, they can work up a better market share in just two years than they've managed to do with the Mac in over two decades. And the competition (Nokia, Blackberry, Sony Ericsson etc) makes very good products, so it's a difficult market.
- A few years ago they introduced the Mac Mini, a low-priced "plugin Mac" that you can plug into your existing PC peripherals and place on top of your desktop PC. So there are ways to get a Mac without robbing a bank.

So... if Mac prices are right, and PCs are so horrible, and Microsoft is so horrible, and Windows is so horrible, and Vista is especially horrible, heck -- the Mac's market share should be at least 25-50% worldwide. But after 25 years it's still only at 10% in the US and 2-3% internationally. I can therefore only conclude that something is very very wrong with either their prices, or their product range, or both.

Last time I compared their prices, they were more or less the same. And the Mac pro has the best-engineered chassis out there.

Well... the chassis is nice, but how much is it worth?

I have a budget this year that would buy me an MBP 17" and a Mac Pro. I've looked at the 2.93 GHz quad. A Mac Pro with 4-core Xeon Nehalem 2.93 (W3540), 6 GB RAM, two 640 GB hard drives and one ATI HD4870 would cost me 38275 SEK without the AppleCare plan. A Dell Precision T3500 with the same W3540 CPU, 6 GB, two 750 GB hard drives and one ATI FirePro V5700 would cost 28546 SEK. I could use the 10000 SEK and go on a nice trip to New York or something, but let's use it to add some more stuff. So I'll throw in 12 GB of RAM (up to 24 GB is possible, while the Mac Pro only takes up to 8 GB), a 1 GB ATI FirePro V8700, and a Blu-Ray drive. Now I'm at 38395 SEK, with twice the RAM, more HD space, a Blu-Ray drive and a monster 1 GB ATI card. And I don't need to pay extra for a 3-year warranty because that's included. Is OSX worth losing all that stuff? Not for me.

 

[IrishSniper87]

I'm certainly not bashing Apple but this question/comment is one that drives me nuts.

The REASON why Mac folks *may* never get such a critical message is because Apple makes/guarantees the hardware...Apple makes the OS and guarantees that it will be 100% compatible with the hardware (that they R&D)...and Apple fully supports/guarantees any Mac you buy. Not to mention that for the last 10 years Apple Macs (except for the ridiculously prices $2800 Pros) are completely closed-box, black box solutions. Most people have no idea how to install a bigger driver or want to take a putty knife to their pretty Mini or iMac. You can argue that there is no reason to...but I beg to differ that after owning "a computer" for a few years that you may want to simply add more memory or a hard drive or a new dvd burner or even a better soundcard.

Because Apple controls 100% of the "system" they obviously have full control and R&D control over what parts go into their system.

Since PC land does not operate like Apple/Mac land (in that you can buy from billions of configurations), people like (and are allowed) to swap out or add stuff all the time and actually PC land promotes this act. Rarely it ends in a BSOD (I've gotten 2 since 1995 with NT 4.0 all the way up through XP Pro) and every time I've gotten the BSOD it's been a driver issue and had nothing to do with Microsoft or my system manufacturer...it was the video card manufacturer (for example). Again, it is super rare to get a BSOD and 99% of the time the true person to blame is the installer who didn't read & follow the instructions...or confirm the OS was supported (or patched)...

So...I just wanted to add some feedback to your comment about all those BSODs that people claim happen often.

-Eric

My 4 year old Acer Bluescreens playing Eve online, and that requirements for that are LOW.

It also bluescreens randomly for no reason. I think it has driver issues, but it has Intel integrated graphics 915M I think and I have tried every driver in existence for it. Many hour wasted

Anyway, I have used Windows 95, 98, ME, and XP and have esperienced many many BSOD. It's just something you have to deal with. In that period I have gone thru about 4 or 5 computers, and all my PC's tend to last for at least 4-5 years. They may be outdated, but I keep them in good condition and I run period spyware, virus, and other checks and programs to keep them fresh.

I admit I don't game much on my PC's, I usually stick to consoles for convenience. I find I'd rather game on my 32' LCD HDTV over XBox Live then game on my 19' LCD monitor on a PC game. I do NOT want to start the console PC argument though, I'm just saying buy what works for you. Everyone seems to think the way they do things is superior to the way other people do things.

If you want a Mac, get one. if you want a 16.4' Vaio, get one.

If you want $300 computer speakers on a 10k audio system, be my guest. Just don't come over and **** on what I have and how I do things.

Offer polite suggestions on how I can do things better. But don't be a ****.

 

[rotta]

Well... the chassis is nice, but how much is it worth?

I have a budget this year that would buy me an MBP 17" and a Mac Pro. I've looked at the 2.93 GHz quad. A Mac Pro with 4-core Xeon Nehalem 2.93 (W3540), 6 GB RAM, two 640 GB hard drives and one ATI HD4870 would cost me 38275 SEK without the AppleCare plan. A Dell Precision T3500 with the same W3540 CPU, 6 GB, two 750 GB hard drives and one ATI FirePro V5700 would cost 28546 SEK. I could use the 10000 SEK and go on a nice trip to New York or something, but let's use it to add some more stuff. So I'll throw in 12 GB of RAM (up to 24 GB is possible, while the Mac Pro only takes up to 8 GB), a 1 GB ATI FirePro V8700, and a Blu-Ray drive. Now I'm at 38395 SEK, with twice the RAM, more HD space, a Blu-Ray drive and a monster 1 GB ATI card. And I don't need to pay extra for a 3-year warranty because that's included. Is OSX worth losing all that stuff? Not for me.

I agree with my swedish friend here. Internationally, Apple Pro prices suck. The new quad-core is even more expensive than the previous 8-core model. Maybe somewhat faster, but that is what to expect after more than a year since the last upgrade.
I'm looking elsewhere for my next desktop, I guess.

 

[gnasher729]

The Microsoft Tax

Interesting article here: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/716/1051716/microsoft-fined-eur9-million-germany

It looks like Microsoft has just been convicted in Germany for illegal price fixing for student versions of Microsoft Office. I wonder what the affected students think about that kind of "Microsoft Tax".

 

[CuriousMacster]

Why is it such a big deal to have a Bluray player in a laptop any way? I could understand a BR player if your using your computer for home entertainment but doesn't make any since for portability. I know I wouldn't carry around an bunch of BR discs with me when I leave the house, it would be a pain. That's why I just download movies, much easier. That and the only games made on BR discs right now are PS3 games, so BR not important for PC gaming.

I do know however that a BR burner would be handy for backing up large files to disk, but a burner is a whole other story.. and not cheap either.

 

[IrishSniper87]

Some people buy them and the market share has been improving over the last couple of years, but if you look at the whole picture it should be doing much, much better. Think about it...

- They have the iPod/iPhone/iTunes "halo" effect. Apple is no longer an obscure company, everyone is familiar with them these days.
- They get more exposure in movies and TV shows than any other brand, due to all the product placement. And it's not lacking in celebrity endorsements, either.
- Apple (as well as Mac users) are totally confident that if people only try out OS X, they will discover how great it is and switch at first opportunity.
- Vista has been a total flop, and there was never a better opportunity to get frustrated PC users to switch.
- Apple has been making computers for 25 years. Macs aren't some new thing that people are only beginning to discover, they've been around forever. The success of the iPhone has shown that even when a market is oversaturated with products and Apple joins the game long after everyone else, they can work up a better market share in just two years than they've managed to do with the Mac in over two decades. And the competition (Nokia, Blackberry, Sony Ericsson etc) makes very good products, so it's a difficult market.
- A few years ago they introduced the Mac Mini, a low-priced "plugin Mac" that you can plug into your existing PC peripherals and place on top of your desktop PC. So there are ways to get a Mac without robbing a bank.

So... if Mac prices are right, and PCs are so horrible, and Microsoft is so horrible, and Windows is so horrible, and Vista is especially horrible, heck -- the Mac's market share should be at least 25-50% worldwide. But after 25 years it's still only at 10% in the US and 2-3% internationally. I can therefore only conclude that something is very very wrong with either their prices, or their product range, or both.

Where are you getting your numbers? I'm not sure about the whole international thing. Interesting.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8

This is an operating system market share table

Windows is at 88% (XP, Vista, and all other versions, XP is 65% of the market)

Mac is 9.77%

iPhone is 0.49% and iPod Touch is 0.11%, so Apple is slightly over 10% when those users are included

Linux users are 0.9%

The OS that run Palm, RIM, Playstation, and XBOX devices all total less then 1%.

 

[FreedomFighter]

If apple wanted to counter these adds they should revisit these people say 3 months on and ask to see there computer...... only to find lynx as there operation system and an iMac siting on the desk in the corner....lol

FreedomFighter

 

[gnasher729]

I'm not complaining about "vague". I'm talking about comparisons that are demonstrably false, like listing Office as an expense for the mac user but not for the PC user. Has Apple made any claims that are that clearly false?

Since Microsoft sells and gets paid for Microsoft Office, doesn't that mean that it is Microsoft who charges people a tax and then has the audacity to call it an "Apple Tax"? Or is this like the "Linux tax" where people have to pay more for a PC with Linux instead of Windows installed, because of contracts between manufacturers and Microsoft?

 

[Anuba]

Where are you getting your numbers? I'm not sure about the whole international thing. Interesting.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8

This is an operating system market share table

Windows is at 88% (XP, Vista, and all other versions, XP is 65% of the market)

Mac is 9.77%

iPhone is 0.49% and iPod Touch is 0.11%, so Apple is slightly over 10% when those users are included

Linux users are 0.9%

The OS that run Palm, RIM, Playstation, and XBOX devices all total less then 1%.

Umm... since when did browser stats equate computer sales market share? iPhone has 58% of the browser market share for smartphones, does that mean 58% of all smartphones are iPhones? No.
Macs are overrepresented in browser stats because they're underrepresented on the corporate side. Tons of people have a Mac at home and a PC at work. You can't blow your whole workday surfing but when you come home to your Mac you can surf yourself silly. Macs get a lot more fun time than all those millions of poor office cubicle PCs that only see spreadsheets and the company intranet.