Microsoft Reveals New Band 2, Lumia Phones, Surface Pro 4, and Surface Book

[maflynn]

Impressive offering from MS. Build quality is OK. Not anywhere near the build quality you get from a Macbook Pro but a really good progression for MS.

How so - maybe I missed your explanation later in the thread but how are you determining the build quality compared to the MBP. I'm not disagreeing with you, but rather what features or elements of the computer seemed inferior in quality to the MBP?

This will force Apple to up their game.

No it won't. Apple rarely responds to competitors. The one exception is the iPad Pro which is a virtual rip off of the Surface/Surface Pro tablets.

 

[shanson27]

No Microsoft car play
No Microsoft Pay
No 3D Touch
No Touch fingerprint sensor
No Bluetooth v4.2
No Display Flash
And still a plastic body

huh !

 

[Serban]

i watch a lot of videos about these surface, there is lag when you drag and drop, lag when you erase with your pen,
but still the only PRO and for a lot of people is the only reason, is that runs Full Windows 10 PRO

Nice tech for Microsoft since a long time

 

[MacBH928]

A dedicated GPU for $1900 , Apple only offer a dedicated GPU on their $2500 model.

And 12 hour battery life... which can turn into a tablet... which has stylus writing detection...

these are not 3 different products... its 1 product...

 

[Kissaragi]

And Wacom did it before that.

The difference is, how it's applied. Wacom's application is different than the one Microsoft bought, and the one Apple made.

The original poster was implying Microsoft had copied Apple, I was pointing out that they didn't.

 

[MacHiavelli]

Yeah, like those low-end managers, board members and general 90% of the global workforce that don't use Mac OS you mean? There are virtually no Macs in the business world. Let's not get cocky here.

Yes, you're supporting my point. The business world is made up of low-end workers. The peasants of the industrial world who have traded their grandparents' spades for Windows hardware and software. You are 100% right. You just don't realise you are supporting my point.

 

[Macboy Pro]

The Surface Book looks great, only problem is... it runs Windows..

You clearly have not used Windows 10 or Yosemite/El Capitan.

 

[Ghost31]

Probably because laptops have been referred to as Notebooks for as long as they've been referred to as laptops.

Didn't you know Apple invented calling notebooks "book"?

You clearly have not used Windows 10 or Yosemite/El Capitan.

Can't tell you how much I agree with this. When the free upgrades came for Windows 10, I upgraded my old laptop from 2009. Windows 10 made it feel like a brand new laptop. It was truly amazing what ms did with a simple update to old hardware.

And Windows 10 itself is amazing. We are at the point now where we can't look at Windows and vomit before running back to OS X. Windows is a legit good OS. Anybody that says different either hasn't tried Windows in years or is a flaming fanboy

Ever since their new CEO at Microsoft, forget his name.... they have been awesome. The new book and surface pro 4 makes the iPad Pro look useless. iOS for iPads needs to start looking more like MAC OS X otherwise it's gonna fail.

I was already not that impressed with iPad pro when it was announced but I thought "meh. Maybe it'll somehow be more useful down the line so whatever".

After the Microsoft announcement I just can't look at the iPad "pro" the same way at all. I never thought I would say this, but MS absolutely killed it

Curious, what are the "lots of ways" the iPad Pro is dependent on iTunes? For me iTunes is just an added convenience because I can download and restore multiple device updates over USB without having them each download it... But that's about.

Well not iTunes but the iPad is sandboxed into the App Store unless you're able to jailbreak, whereas Windows you can download whatever the hell you want

 

[Macboy Pro]

What's boxy, weighs too much, costs $1.5K to $3K, has an armadillo hinge and doesn't know whether it wants to a tablet or a laptop?

What has a pathetic 2010 screen, has old processors, terrible graphic performance processors, costs $1K (unusable) to $2.5K, and requires you to buy an iPad for another $1K if you want a tablet? The winner seems pretty straight forward.

Outside of the iphone, Apple has done little innovation for years. Each conference, same old dudes walk out and tell you they are innovating and providing people what they need but don't know it. Apple needs to refresh itself as a company and as an executive team.

The iPhone has to be one of the greatest innovations in modern history. Apple has been surfing that success wave for 8 years. Without the iPhone, Apple would be a small fraction of itself today. Time for Apple to innovate again!

 

[maflynn]

Outside of the iphone, Apple has done little innovation for years. Each conference, same old dudes walk out and tell you they are innovating and providing people what they need but don't know it. Apple needs to refresh itself as a company and as an executive team.

Well they do like to use the word amazing a lot in their presentation

Seriously though I agree to a point. Its hard to turn on innovation. I think the apple watch is their latest and biggest attempt at innovation. As for Apple's other product lines - I think there's been more subtle attempts at innovation, i.e., force touch the touchpad, new keyboard mechanism, etc.

I think overall MS is swinging for the fences, coming from a position of weakness (in a sense), and Apple is playing it safe coming from a position of strength.

 

[ioioos]

No Microsoft car play
No Microsoft Pay
No 3D Touch
No Touch fingerprint sensor
No Bluetooth v4.2
No Display Flash
And still a plastic body huh!

Isn't it a bit worrying if that list is the reason to choose Apple over what is clearly some excellent innovation from MS? And even on this list....

No MS car play? Their phones work with all any universal Bluetooth car set up.
No Microsoft Pay? No biggy, they'll simply jump on with the next iteration of paypal.
No 3D Touch? Win Phones already have the hold function that does the same thing.
No fingerprint sensor? They've jumped that with Hello and don't even need a finger.
No Bluetooth v4.2? No biggy for a few years yet.
Plastic body phone? Really? It bounces and doesn't need a fugly case around it.

Lets compare that list to what MS delivered in the last 12 months.

Damn good fast stable operating system.
Single platform across all devices that now seems to work.
Excellent apps to work beyond a walled garden (onedrive, office, onenote, cortana).
Ability to run full third party software on the go.
Touchscreens. Done well, its damn useful.
Continuum. Pumping the phone into a proper portable computer.
MS platform as the native partnership with the forthcoming Oculus Rift.
Superb tie in with Xbox One functionality.
Hololens on its way.
Hardware. Finally backing it up with a great hardware line up.

They are spanking Apple right now, unless your view of success is sales numbers rather than consumer technical innovation.

There is a reason the MS keynote thread has cooked up 22 pages of response on an Apple forum (much more than the 6S pages did at keynote), and that’s because they have been releasing new products with substance. I don't think they have got it all right, but they are certainly the only ones trying at the moment. The Apple keynote was all spin, claiming innovation for ideas that already existed 12 months before on other devices. It was more about shareholder peace of mind than market shaping. In all industries the market leader becomes a victim of shareholder satisfaction.

With most of the negative comments centred on their presentation quality, a hinge or comparisons with their OS 10 years ago, it clear their isn't much to hit at here.

Hopefully their sales numbers will take, then Apple can pull their finger out. They have truly become complacent.

 

[840quadra]

Surface Book 512GB/i7 "Out of Stock" already on Day 1 pre-orders. You have to understand people have been waiting for this Jesus-book for years. I've got a feeling MS could sell millions of these except for the fact that they totally will underestimate demand.

Reminded me of the original band, which I tried to order and buy for well over a month before I lost interest and got something else. They either took a page form Apple by driving up interest using scarcity as a tool, or, they completely underestimated interest as you say.

Also in regards to demand, People also need to remember that laptops running Windows have well over 2x the demand (due to much greater market share) of those running Mac OS. While Apple is doing well, they still have only a tiny slice of the overall market share, and can still Considered by many to be a niche brand in the personal computer market.

I don't think this announcement is a shot across the bow of Apple, I would be more worried if I was an OEM like Lenovo, HP, Dell and the likes.

No it won't. Apple rarely responds to competitors. The one exception is the iPad Pro which is a virtual rip off of the Surface/Surface Pro tablets.

They have actually responded quite a few times in the past. Usually in software, but, it is still a response to competitors, or competitive features asked for by their customers.

With regards to the iPad pro, Was it a rip off, or did they share in the development in some ways? Apple has a recent history of working well with Microsoft with regards to tablets and mobile devices. There was also an agreement between the companies that prevents them from making identical, or nearly identical products.

Only time will tell ( lawsuits? ) if they did infact work together or not, though I found it intriguing that Microsoft was the first on stage after the announcement, and there appeared to be no overall negative press on the iPad pro from Redmond.

I am curious if Apple was able to make the keyboard cover and larger devices based on their patent application from 2011. Apple also had filed a patent in 2011 for a magnetically attached keyboard cover, and input methods involving a stylus. That said, I fully acknowledge that it's possible Microsoft had a working unit in development beforehand, and Apple got wind of it.

Ideas and IP in this market is an interesting subject, I think the estate of Gene Roddenberry should sue them all.

 

[RickInHouston]

Didn't you know Apple invented calling notebooks "book"?


Can't tell you how much I agree with this. When the free upgrades came for Windows 10, I upgraded my old laptop from 2009. Windows 10 made it feel like a brand new laptop. It was truly amazing what ms did with a simple update to old hardware.

And Windows 10 itself is amazing. We are at the point now where we can't look at Windows and vomit before running back to OS X. Windows is a legit good OS. Anybody that says different either hasn't tried Windows in years or is a flaming fanboy


I was already not that impressed with iPad pro when it was announced but I thought "meh. Maybe it'll somehow be more useful down the line so whatever".

After the Microsoft announcement I just can't look at the iPad "pro" the same way at all. I never thought I would say this, but MS absolutely killed it


Well not iTunes but the iPad is sandboxed into the App Store unless you're able to jailbreak, whereas Windows you can download whatever the hell you want

You totally lost me at "iTunes is an added convenience." This, said by NO ONE.

 

[Serban]

A dedicated GPU for $1900 , Apple only offer a dedicated GPU on their $2500 model.

And 12 hour battery life... which can turn into a tablet... which has stylus writing detection...

these are not 3 different products... its 1 product...

12h battery life AS a laptop, whtih keyboard attached browsing the web ! As a tablet you get 3h battery life AND what kind of dGPU? if its Nvidia 750M the Iris pro HD6200 is already there and with not a lot of heat like with a dGPU

 

[maflynn]

With regards to the iPad pro, Was it a rip off, or did they share in the development in some ways?

I think since Apple's prior stance on styli has been steadfast against it uses, I can only draw a conclusion of Apple copying MS in this case. I don't think Apple and MS are sharing any development at all.

 

[Serban]

On paper and event these product were looking great, better than anything else..but after event hands on remain only the great microsoft products ever released

 

[maflynn]

Only time will tell ( lawsuits? )

I don't think its stealing in a way that could draw a lawsuit. I mean when Dell came out with an AIO computer years ago, it was in response to Apple's iMac.

Both are tablets that Apple saw how popular the SP was and how sales of the iPad were shrinking. They decided to copy MS in this instance. On the other hand MS copied Apple with a lot of the eye candy and what not with Windows 7 back in the day - so much so they admitted looking at OS X and copying some elements.

 

[kodos]

The more that certain Apple apologists on this thread continue to squeal and produce vitriol against Microsoft; the more clear it is that Microsoft hit Apple square between the eyes yesterday. It's really fun to watch these posters. Love it. Cannot remember the last time this happened. Fun stuff.

 

[Popeye206]

Don't worry Apple will copy the detachable screen, how do I know this? Look at the Apple Pencil for iPad, something Jobs said would never happen. Tim Cook calibrating with Microsoft and see where that got him, a FridgeToaster tweet.

The way I look at it... MS should be careful what bear they poke. Although the new hardware from MS looks good, they have a long ways to go to mass up the sales and Apple has been at hardware waaaaay longer than MS and can easily trump them if they want.

So, will Apple do a detachable screen? Probably... but personally, I don't think I'd be running to buy one. I'd be more likely to buy the next generation of the MacBook once it has a better processor and the price drops some (which is historically the case).

I think Apple's challenge is figure out a way to redefine the tablet again. Right now, if you purchase a tablet you more or less can use it until it dies... which seems to be a long time since we still use our iPad2. Sure it's slow, but for what we do with a tablet, it's fine. Some of the features of the iPad Pro are really cool, but not sure if these features were brought to the iPad Air I'd re-invest just yet. The point being... they need to find some new secret sauce to re-energize the tablet market and detachable screens from MacBooks I'm not sure is that redefinition. I see that as a different category.

Not sure if I make sense.

 

[spinedoc77]

Hmm, I don't notice ANY pen lag on my SP3 at all. What Ntrig has is hover lag, when you lift the tip off it goes into some kind of semi sleep state which causes that. From what I understand that was fixed, but we'll have to wait and see hardcore reviews. But as soon as that tip touches the screen it's perfect, no lag there.

From seeing videos I agree that the eraser function might be crappy. It looked more like undo, rather than eraser, that is when you applied the eraser it would simply undo whatever you did after putting the pen tip down. At least that's what it looked like on the keynote video where he had like 3 or 4 squiggles, and he just touched the eraser down and each touch completely erased a squiggle. That's not what I want, I want something that erases pixel by pixel. When drawing often you overdraw and then sculpt it down with an eraser, and I'm not sure if that's possible with what I saw.

While I'm a huge MS fan, I find it interesting the person who said no one at the Adobe event was talking about the surfaces. This is apples strong point, marketing. I read also that they brought the iPad pro to Disney developers/graphic artists and they wanted to order a bunch of them. MS needs to get out there and market.

Now as the end of the day does this really matter for the hardcore graphic artist? Don't they still end up choosing a Wacom tablet for whatever reason, size, accuracy, ability to run PS, etc? I can't see Wacom simply going out of business tomorrow and I'm excited to see what they release to counter this invasion of tablets into their space. My feeling is at best tablets like the IPP and SP4 will be used on the go for small projects, or by amateur graphic artists who don't want to spend a lot on a Wacom setup, although I suppose the price differential is much less now looking at the insane prices of the surface book.

 

[maflynn]

I think Apple's challenge is figure out a way to redefine the tablet again.

That's apple's issue - outside of some of us techies, people just don't upgrade their iPads. My wife uses an gen 1 Mini, I have a gen 2 mini and we have no plans on upgrading. The sliding sales of the iPad illustrate the issue, once people get an iPad they see no need to upgrade.

 

[till213]

This is basically what the iPad Pro + Keyboard is, no?

No.

 

[till213]

They compared it to a 2012 MacBook Pro. Of course it is 2x faster.

They didn't.

 

[till213]

Hyperbole much?

Envy much?

 

[Serban]

Hmm, I don't notice ANY pen lag on my SP3 at all. What Ntrig has is hover lag, when you lift the tip off it goes into some kind of semi sleep state which causes that. From what I understand that was fixed, but we'll have to wait and see hardcore reviews. But as soon as that tip touches the screen it's perfect, no lag there.

From seeing videos I agree that the eraser function might be crappy. It looked more like undo, rather than eraser, that is when you applied the eraser it would simply undo whatever you did after putting the pen tip down. At least that's what it looked like on the keynote video where he had like 3 or 4 squiggles, and he just touched the eraser down and each touch completely erased a squiggle. That's not what I want, I want something that erases pixel by pixel. When drawing often you overdraw and then sculpt it down with an eraser, and I'm not sure if that's possible with what I saw.

While I'm a huge MS fan, I find it interesting the person who said no one at the Adobe event was talking about the surfaces. This is apples strong point, marketing. I read also that they brought the iPad pro to Disney developers/graphic artists and they wanted to order a bunch of them. MS needs to get out there and market.

Now as the end of the day does this really matter for the hardcore graphic artist? Don't they still end up choosing a Wacom tablet for whatever reason, size, accuracy, ability to run PS, etc? I can't see Wacom simply going out of business tomorrow and I'm excited to see what they release to counter this invasion of tablets into their space. My feeling is at best tablets like the IPP and SP4 will be used on the go for small projects, or by amateur graphic artists who don't want to spend a lot on a Wacom setup, although I suppose the price differential is much less now looking at the insane prices of the surface book.[/QUOTE
I agree, i am sure Apple will make the eraser function to the pencil when they reach the natural feel. The guy who was on apple event and try on the pencil and now on Microsoft surface said that are different, surface pen is a nice accessory while the other is a perfect stylus,thats why probably Apple charge you 99$ and is not in the box, because after you try it out, you will pay for it.