Microsoft Says Its New Surface Book 2 is Twice as Powerful as Latest MacBook Pro

[deanthedev]

You are the one that wanted to see them... you can look through the list.

But do tell what "work" would I be doing that the A11 is going to "slaughter" any Android device. I do real work on my Note 8. Its fully integrated with my business apps. I heavily use OneDrive, OneNote, the office suite, Email, Web, as well as entertainment apps... and dozens more. In zero of them have I seen any noticeable difference in performance to my iPhone. Not sure how you can slaughter something that is already pretty much instant response. One area the Note 8 "slaughters" any iPhone is that I can take pen based notes in the full OneNote app on my Surface, and then open that notebook on my Note 8 and edit the hand written notes with the S-pen. There are many other "slaughter" use cases because I am worried about function, and you are apparently looking at CPU benchmarks as your measure of capability. Fast is fast... who cares if one can be clocked faster if it can't do a function I want to do???

I do photo and video editing and illustration. I also do a lot of music/audio production. These are significantly faster (and some features I use aren’t even available in any comparable Android device/App).

In the entire history of computing it’s been advances in processor performance that moved the industry forward. Tasks that were reserved for high-end workstations or super computers migrated down to PCs. And now they are migrating down to mobile devices.

Having a very fast processor is what will allow developers to continue to push the envelope of what’s possible with mobile. Imagine if Intel, AMD or Nvidia had the attitude that computers were already fast enough?

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Wow RIP macbook pro.....this is how you innovate and make a amazing looking device. The 15 inch use to be a dream and now it's here.............

What's so innovative?

It has VASTLY inferior I/O to even the 13" MBP, and nevermind the 15". You can get those 2 USB 3.1 Connectors and SD Card slot for around $15 on Amazon all day long. And then the 13" MBP will STILL have 20 Gbps of I/O Bandwidth available, and the 15" MBP will STILL have 60 Gbps of I/O bandwidth available.

SurfaceBook: Proprietary Dock Connector that adds $200 to the price. MBP: Industry-Standard USB-C/TB 3 Ports that can connect to a wide variety of "Docks". MBP suits a MUCH larger "Application Envelope".

Not to mention the fact that, although the Nvidia GPUs are somewhat faster than the AMD GPUs used in the MBP, they do not have nearly the same External Display-Driving ability as the AMDs (which is why Apple chose them).

I don't for one second believe their 17 hour battery life, unless 8 of those hours are spent with the screen so dim you can't read it except in a pitch-black room.

MBP still has the fastest SSD on the market BY FAR.

MBP can still have a TouchBar. Laugh if you will; but most people that have them, think they are pretty cool.

Windows OS. 'Nuff said.
[doublepost=1508341397][/doublepost]

Windows has come a long way. It's a lot better than what people think.

No, it isn't. And I use both every single day.

 

[Stella]

Why in the world would Apple license MacOS when they can keep doing minimal effort on the hardware side and charge premium prices?

Suppose your right while Timmy the bean counter is in control.

 

[Falhófnir]

I do photo and video editing and illustration. I also do a lot of music/audio production. These are significantly faster (and some features I use aren’t even available in any comparable Android device/App).

In the entire history of computing it’s been advances in processor performance that moved the industry forward. Tasks that were reserved for high-end workstations or super computers migrated down to PCs. And now they are migrating down to mobile devices.

Having a very fast processor is what will allow developers to continue to push the envelope of what’s possible with mobile. Imagine if Intel, AMD or Nvidia had the attitude that computers were already fast enough?

The more important thing in that regard is that the 'mobile' chips keep making gains on the 'high performance' chips

What's so innovative?

It has VASTLY inferior I/O to even the 13" MBP, and nevermind the 15". You can get those 2 USB 3.1 Connectors and SD Card slot for around $15 on Amazon all day long. And then the 13" MBP will STILL have 20 Gbps of I/O Bandwidth available, and the 15" MBP will STILL have 60 Gbps of I/O bandwidth available.

SurfaceBook: Proprietary Dock Connector that adds $200 to the price. MBP: Industry-Standard USB-C/TB 3 Ports that can connect to a wide variety of "Docks". MBP suits a MUCH larger "Application Envelope".

Not to mention the fact that, although the Nvidia GPUs are somewhat faster than the AMD GPUs used in the MBP, they do not have nearly the same External Display-Driving ability as the AMDs (which is why Apple chose them).

I don't for one second believe their 17 hour battery life, unless 8 of those hours are spent with the screen so dim you can't read it except in a pitch-black room.

MBP still has the fastest SSD on the market BY FAR.

MBP can still have a TouchBar. Laugh if you will; but most people that have them, think they are pretty cool.

Windows OS. 'Nuff said.
[doublepost=1508341397][/doublepost]
No, it isn't. And I use both every single day.

Some of your points I agree with, some I don't - IO for example is highly personalised, some might prefer four uniform ultra bandwidth ports, some might be better off with 2 USB A, SD and a USB C sans having to buy and pack a dongle.

The 17 hour battery life is a long shot, but even if they get 12, they're still doing better than what any MacBook bar an air can do.

While I'm not so concerned by SSD speed, the MBP use MLC SSDs whereas I expect the Surface book probably uses standard TLC ones, meaning the MacBook will have better longevity. That I do care about, but I would have to confirm what type of SSD is being used first.

Windows vs Mac is again personal preference. Personally quite happy using both, sometimes it helps to see others' perspectives.

 

[groove-agent]

It's not that Apple's prices are high, rather their value is low for the price.

The Surface is also a tablet, which is really good value. Plus, guess what, it has ports which means not having to buy an array of dongles.

Apple's MBP doesn't have touch, or can run as a tablet, nor does it have useful ports or the Kaby Lake Refresh processor. It does however have a large price tag.

Looks to me like the same price as their MBP counterparts. Does that mean we can stop bitching about Apple's prices being too high?

 

[alexanderkilts]

It can also be charged with the USB-C port.

What's your point? You can also charge the Surface Book 2 through the USB-C port and the proprietary connector is also there for the (separate) docking station. If they would remove that they would lose the backwards compatibility with the dock. It is the best of both worlds. Nothing to complain about.

Oh, good. And thanks for that correction.

I searched the site and thought i read through the technical info, but I must have missed it. I concede that my rant is less relevant to this specific situation.

 

[alexgowers]

With so many aspects that make up a computer claiming anything is faster is totally pointless and meaningless.

Drive speed alone requires complex testing and doesn't produce a single figure. Cpu can contain many facets that mean certain software runs faster, video editing on a Mac for example. GPU is another area apple while weak on is impossible to compare as so few games run on MacOS. Co processors, ram speed, screen quality, IO, IO speed, Charge speed, Audio quality, speaker quality, etc etc etc. You just can't say it's twice as fast without a LONG LONG list of caveats.

Comparing actual software performance and raw numbers for the software that exists on both would show no difference for 99% even an underpowered MacBook from years ago. MS is blowing smoke up your ass.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

With so many aspects that make up a computer claiming anything is faster is totally pointless and meaningless.

Drive speed alone requires complex testing and doesn't produce a single figure. Cpu can contain many facets that mean certain software runs faster, video editing on a Mac for example. GPU is another area apple while weak on is impossible to compare as so few games run on MacOS. Co processors, ram speed, screen quality, IO, IO speed, Charge speed, Audio quality, speaker quality, etc etc etc. You just can't say it's twice as fast without a LONG LONG list of caveats.

Comparing actual software performance and raw numbers for the software that exists on both would show no difference for 99% even an underpowered MacBook from years ago. MS is blowing smoke up your ass.

You would have been right if that was the claim, but it isn't. The claim is that the Surface Book is 2x as powerful. That does not mean 2x faster perse. Subtle difference. For instance MS can claim that the touch aspect of the Surface Book makes it more powerful. The fact that you can use it as a tablet as well makes it more powerful. The fact that it has a longer battery life makes it more powerful. etc. etc.

 

[Ethosik]

Twice as powerful? Really don’t see how that is possible. Seems like they are comparing their top end Surface 15” to the entry level 13” MBP. That, to me, seems to have gone over the line in terms of deceptive advertising.

Also can’t wait to see battery life tests. Somehow I don’t think it will do that well under load.

I also note they talk about the “latest MBP” but have a picture of one from three generations ago.
*edit: um wow. Looking again that is the 2012 Model. WTF?

Oh Microsoft. *rollseyes

Twice as powerful is relative anyway. My 2017 iMac is "twice" as powerful than my 2010 Mac Pro in benchmarks, but my workflow does NOT benefit from having the latest hardware.
[doublepost=1508344105][/doublepost]

Windows 10 is worst than you think.

I have had more issues with Windows 10 across six different computers than I have had from Windows 95 to Windows 8.1. And that actually includes Windows Me and Windows Vista (I didn't have any issues with those OSes).

I ran disk cleanup once on Windows 10 1607 and it resulted in a blue screen and my Windows was lost. Good thing I had an Acronis backup from the night before.

When Windows 10 1607 was released every SINGLE shortcut failed to work the first time you clicked it. "Bad stub data received" error showed up. On top of that, Windows Update failed to update properly. So in order to fix it, I had to run an update from the catalog site manually.

The October cumulative update just released is causing a lot of BSOD.
[doublepost=1508344212][/doublepost]

Now we're talking. 15", Intel Coffee Lake, gaming VR capable Nvidia GTX1060, largest software ecosystem and no stupid emoji bar gimmicks.

This also puts to rest the silly fake news that Microsoft is dropping the Surface line.

Yes because professional software and VR gaming is the same right? Some of us need AMD cards for our work - FCPX primarily.
[doublepost=1508344299][/doublepost]

Am I the only one that thinks Apple is getting confusing for customers:
- 8 different iPhones
- 5 different MacBooks
When Steve Jobs returned to Apple after being fired, the first thing he did was get rid of all the duplicate products.
I wish he could come back again.

We cannot compare then to now. How many product lines existed then? There were no smartphones when Steve returned. There were no tablets. There were no ultrabooks.
[doublepost=1508344426][/doublepost]

You're right it's not half bad... it's 100% bad.

Seriously though, I try and avoid using Windows as much as possible. The way it handles fonts and high resolution screens is poor, I can't stand the file explorer and the UI is a cluttered mess and a mishmash of old and new ideas. The whole thing seems to have been engineered to ensure the average user's PC will slow to a crawl within a year or so of light use. Perhaps this is a tactic to increase the sale of new PCs.

Microsoft should just scrap all their old code and start again from scratch.

Visual Studio and gaming. That is all Windows is good for these days (to me at least). I use macOS for everything except for when I need to game or use Visual Studio.

 

[rowspaxe]

Hey MR community, save some hate for the awesome HP Zbook X2.
http://surfaceproartist.com/

 

[Ethosik]

I love my Macs. However Apple needs to step up the hardware game, on the desk\laptop side. A great UI/X isn't going to trump the latest and greatest. Especially the GPU and spec specs. When I look at the current iMac and MBP it looks like they are at least ~2 years behind in those two areas.

There are Radeon 780 mobile chips available?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Nothing says Fisher Price like the macOs animated dock.

Good one lol ... but a clock applet vs the start menu tiles implemented by a Microsoft Executive who looks like a Picaso painting descendant ... that Start Menu Tiles you see almost 100 times daily vs something you don't require in macOS (menu bar clock shows the time).
[doublepost=1508344835][/doublepost]

Windows 10 has come a long way it's very reliable fast and I have had 0 issues with it since launch . I think 10 is their best work since XP

Stable and fast (especially on SSD/M.2) agreed!

It's the layout I'm not a fan of ... classic mode helps.

 

[kaneda]

You mean that in a couple of years the MBP line will have a GPU thats of comparable strength to the one in the Surface Book now?

Removable multi-touch screen.

 

[Ethosik]

People in this thread are saying windows has gotten better... guys, windows is so, so much worse than it used to be. There are literal ads in the start menu. Windows randomly installs crap applications without your permission, and computers come loaded with so much third party bloatware its not even funny. And Windows is basically spyware now - tracking everything you do and sending to Microsoft. Don't like internet explorer? Oh look, it got renamed and Microsoft helpfully pinned it to your desktop without your permission.

Yep. I agree. When it works, I actually prefer it to Windows 7 and Windows XP. But, Windows 10 just does not work a lot of the times as mentioned in my previous post. Seriously, running disk check on several computers running Windows 10 1607 resulted in BSOD and windows failing to boot and even be repaired? REALLY? And how did they break all ALL shortcuts? Were desktop shortcuts new with Windows 10? No. How could they break something that has been around for a LONG time?

 

[lowendlinux]

Too much, regardless of the Windows vs. macOS/ PC vs. Mac pissing contest that is occurring in this thread, the price for these machines is high. Too high imo, I was critical of Apple pricing their MBPs so high back when they rolled out the new 2016 models, I'm not going to give MS a pass on the same issue. I can see myself using the 15" laptop, save for the high price.

Sadly, I feel that Ms has more quality item then the current MBPs. The MBP keyboards are sore point of contention given their propensity to fail.

Apple has two advantages though; most Americans are closer to an Apple store than a MS store to get service and Apples resale value is still pretty high. I agree in general that both of these systems are just too expensive even if they're halo products.

Wow. When you turn down that next billion dollar offer, would you please give me a referral??!!
[doublepost=1508330299][/doublepost]
I haven't run Windows on any of my PC laptops in a decade. I run Linux. In general, the two downsides to running Linux on a desktop/laptop these days are 1) Linux kernels lag a bit for the latest PC hardware - you generally have to wait a few months to get bleeding edge hardware to work correctly with it, and 2) you have to be a bit self-sufficient in maintaining applications and the OS. I retired from working in a technical field, so am used to the self-sufficiency part. You have to be familiar enough with software/hardware issues to get help from Linux forums when you need it. I wish this machine was offered pre-configured for Linux, as Dell offers that option with the XPS 13. I have no interest in Windows anymore, but running Linux on this box is really appealing to me. I wouldn't risk the money on it until I was sure it would run with a non-windows system.

I've had a bad week with computers as both of mine are dead all in a matter of days so I'm in the market for a new Laptop and I'm still tossing around the new Pixel Book or a System76 Galago Pro. When I was googling to compare the Galago Pro with the XPS 13 developer I couldn't find the newer version available with Ubuntu anymore just the last generation.

I'm still not exactly sure where I'll head but I have until the insurance claim pays to figure it out.

 

[Ethosik]

Anyone who says "too bad it runs Windows" clearly hasn't used Windows lately.

I have tried the full Windows experience full time (and for a while) after well over a decade of using a Mac exclusively and while I would say that I definitely prefer macOS, I don't think Windows is bad. In fact, we are slowly approaching OS parity where both platforms are very stable, have awesome features and are fast and fluid.

Whatever the preference, I would not bet against Windows at this point. It's moving in the right direction and fast.

...and fast.

That is exactly what is wrong with Windows 10. it is being updated too fast. Same with Apple and macOS and iOS. Both Microsoft and Apple have this idea of major updates need to be FAST FAST FAST yet all it does is introduce a lot of bugs. I have had more bugs and issues with Windows 10 than I ever have had with Windows 95-8.1. I do not experience a lot of bugs in macOS, but they do not seem to be as polished as when it took a couple years for an update. Same with Microsoft. Windows 10 is a hot mess. I loved Windows XP and Windows 7, and when Windows 10 works I prefer that over any other Windows OS. But it is just a messy OS that causes serious bugs (from one of my earlier post).

 

[ksnell]

But there’s a *lot* more variety in anti-virus software than there is for macOS.
[doublepost=1508336865][/doublepost]
Only? Seems like a lot.

1. This is where the customization comes in. The firewall is much more customizable than macOS .
2. I use my computers for a lot more than those 4 things. So basically my Mac is a really expensive syncing device that can edit the occasional photo while my Workstation does the powerful work and can drive more displays.

 

[Ethosik]

I really wish Apple would bring touchscreens to its Mac line. Do it right, and I bet a lot of creative professionals would come back. Plus, look at Apple's push into AR. Why can't they do that with touchscreens on Macs as well? I'm getting into digital photography and drawing, and would love something like the Surface Studio, but with macOS & a better graphics card.

Absolutely not. It would be Windows 8 and 10 all over again, bringing GIANT interfaces even if you use Keyboard/Mouse in order to have touch screen support. Windows 10 is much better, but the Apps (settings) is touch design first, keyboard/mouse design second. I do not want just a few big buttons for my settings, I want my old style Control Panel back with a massive list of options.

And I am seriously sick of hearing NVIDIA = better graphics card. It depends on your usage. There is no blanket statement that AMD cards are far worse. Especially if you use something like FCPX. I have a GTX 980 in my 2010 Mac Pro and it is FAR FAR FAR worse than the AMD 7950

 

[evatar]

Am I the only one that thinks Apple is getting confusing for customers:
- 8 different iPhones
- 5 different MacBooks
When Steve Jobs returned to Apple after being fired, the first thing he did was get rid of all the duplicate products.
I wish he could come back again.

This, this, and THIS.

 

[Ethosik]

I’m on Window 7 using a 2010 i5 and a Win 7 install from 2011. No problems here. Stable except for outlook which has always been glitchy since I started using it in 1999. I would upgrade to 10 but I don’t like their forced upgrade system.

Yes, Windows 7 is pretty solid. Windows 10 is not. Unfortunately, Windows 7 is also getting too old now. When Windows 10 works, I prefer it.

 

[Regime2008]

Absolutely not. It would be Windows 8 and 10 all over again, bringing GIANT interfaces even if you use Keyboard/Mouse in order to have touch screen support. Windows 10 is much better, but the Apps (settings) is touch design first, keyboard/mouse design second. I do not want just a few big buttons for my settings, I want my old style Control Panel back with a massive list of options.

And I am seriously sick of hearing NVIDIA = better graphics card. It depends on your usage. There is no blanket statement that AMD cards are far worse. Especially if you use something like FCPX. I have a GTX 980 in my 2010 Mac Pro and it is FAR FAR FAR worse than the AMD 7950

Out of curiosity, would that be due to drivers? Or how Nvidia/CUDA work? I was just seeing how a RX480 mopped the floor with a GTX 1080TI, when it comes to exportation on FCPX. No one would even think to compare those two GPU's when it comes to windows, which is pretty impressive.

Also the Vega 56/64 beat the TI by a huge margin in Forza 7 benchmarks. But every other game seems to have a much higher FPS on the green side of the fence.

 

[falainber]

I do photo and video editing and illustration. I also do a lot of music/audio production. These are significantly faster (and some features I use aren’t even available in any comparable Android device/App).

In the entire history of computing it’s been advances in processor performance that moved the industry forward. Tasks that were reserved for high-end workstations or super computers migrated down to PCs. And now they are migrating down to mobile devices.

Having a very fast processor is what will allow developers to continue to push the envelope of what’s possible with mobile. Imagine if Intel, AMD or Nvidia had the attitude that computers were already fast enough?

Why are these tasks migrating to mobile? Are you sitting at your desk and work on a tablet? Or do you need to edit video in the field?

 

[Ethosik]

Out of curiosity, would that be due to drivers? Or how Nvidia/CUDA work? I was just seeing how a RX480 mopped the floor with a GTX 1080TI, when it comes to exportation on FCPX. No one would even think to compare those two GPU's when it comes to windows, which is pretty impressive.

Also the Vega 56/64 beat the TI by a huge margin in Forza 7 benchmarks. But every other game seems to have a much higher FPS on the green side of the fence.

Primarily a driver issue. It is also due to AMD cards having better OpenCL tasks that FCPX uses too. NVIDIA cards can do some good OpenCL work too, but AMD seems to work better with the compute that Apple is using.

I agree, if you game get NVIDIA. But also if you game, you need Windows and are better suited for a Windows PC anyway than a mac. But my 2017 iMac with the Radeon 580 plays games nicely in bootcamp. Not as good as my GTX 1080 system, but Mac's aren't geared towards heavy gaming platforms anyway.
[doublepost=1508348780][/doublepost]

I don't know what people mean by "windows is stable now", Win 7 was stable for the longest time...

Windows 7 is more stable than Windows 10.

 

[tkermit]

I don't know what people mean by "windows is stable now", Win 7 was stable for the longest time...

Stability had never really been my issue with Windows, certainly not since Windows 2000.

 

[Ethosik]

...allegedly. I still haven’t seen my 2016 rMBP last that long.


It’s rather that Microsoft overcharges as much as Apple.

I got my 2016 15" Macbook Pro to last 15 hours once working in Pages.