Microsoft Says Its New Surface Book 2 is Twice as Powerful as Latest MacBook Pro

Discussion in 'MacRumors.com News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. john123 macrumors 68020

    john123

    Joined:
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    #901
    The answer to your question—and the demonstrated flaw in the your logic—rests with the fact that you say two contradictory things:

    1) basically, paraphrasing, "I don't need a bunch of the ports that were offered"
    2) "The laptop does not need dozens of ports on it."

    More varied ports means more flexibility. For everyone. (Whether each person needs or benefits from that flexibility is a separate question.)

    Now, you do cite a use case that "more varied ports" doesn't inherently address: namely, something like your need two VGA ports.

    But the great thing about more varied ports combined with a standard like USB-C—and the very approach the Surface Book 2 takes—is that you can address that. A couple USB-C/TB-3 ports combined with ports for legacy equipment is a win-win-win situation for nearly everyone. And then if you WANT to carry an additional dongle around for the real edge cases, you can! But most users wouldn't have to. BY CONTRAST, the TB MBP forces nearly 100% of people today to use dongles.

    A couple USB-C/TB-3 ports, a SD port, and a couple USB-A ports, and a MagSafe is a pretty ideal setup for 2017-2018. (And whaddya know--that's exactly what the old models had, with the exception of it having a separate HDMI port and the USB-C being TB-2). And if you want to keep your laptop around beyond 2018 (i.e., as things switch more and more to USB-C), you could carry hubs and dongles to expand your use of those two ports.

    This is, of course, academic, as Apple is notorious for doubling down on its decisions. But as this thread is about the Surface Book 2, I wanted to point out the reasons why I think their decision is a super smart one.
     
  2. xWhiplash macrumors 68000

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    #902
    Then let's put back VGA ports on these laptops. I need those more than USB-A.

    More varied ports does not equal flexibility. Not for EVERYONE like you state. How does having an HDMI port on my laptop when I do NOT use HDMI give me flexibility? If I ever needed HDMI, I could use one out of the four USB-C/TB3 ports instead of a dedicated HDMI port. That way I could use the same port for my USB-C thumb drive the next day, and to charge my laptop the day after that. These ports are more flexible. Can I use my USB-C or USB-A thumb drive or charge my laptop with an HDMI port? No. Can I use the thumb drive, charge my laptop, OR HDMI with the USB-C/TB3 port? Yes. Therefore, more flexible.

    Your scenario is not a win-win-win situation. A couple of TB3 ports only. So you would sacrifice the two additional TB3 ports for those of us that need it?

    Seriously, like was mentioned, how is this "dongle" issue still going on? $10 can get you a powered over USB hub with 4 USB-A connections. No need for dongles, just get that hub and that ONE USB-C port turned into four USB-A ports. And more than likely you could get by with just cables. I have USB-A to USB-C, USB-B to USB-C, micro variations of those to USB-C, DisplayPort to USB-C, DVI to USB-C. All of those combined only was around $50. No need for dongles. I have an 8-port USB-A hub connected, I have ZERO dongles.

    It is fine if you like the Surface Book 2's choices. We can like different things. Obviously, I like the USB-C and TB3 setup that the MacBook Pros have. That is why we have different types of computers :). I still see new motherboard with the PS/2 connector for keyboard and mouse.

    There is a contractor I work with for Microsoft Dynamics. He has a Lenovo and he has to have a USB dongle in order to connect to the ethernet. I have no idea where "dongles is bad news" came from. It doesn't make you any less of a professional. And as a professional, you should have dongles anyway. You never know if you might come across a projector that only accepts VGA.
     
  3. jefffriscotx Suspended

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    Oct 22, 2017
    #903
    it is just like Android said we gonna kilk Apple for years!
     
  4. john123 macrumors 68020

    john123

    Joined:
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    #904
    I feel like you didn't read anything I typed. And it seems like you just want to argue for your 4 USB-C ports in the face no matter what--logic be damned.

    To answer your points:
    • Flexibility simply means options. Perhaps we are having a semantic debate about definitions--which would be a shame since that's a colossal waste of time. But having an HDMI port gives USERS flexibility, or options, one of which is no dongles/hubs. Including you. Even if you don't use HDMI day to day, if for some reason you eventually find yourself in a situation needing HDMI, having it built in means you'd have it. Right there. No dongle required. (Although again, I specifically alluded in my previous post to the notion that dropping HDMI made sense, as it was NOT listed in my proposed port configuration.) And even if you don't ever see yourself in that situation and will never be in it, other users will. Hence flexibility. Or options. Or whatever we choose to call it.
    • Then you talk about "sacrificing" the two additional TB3 ports for people who "need" it. If you're such a big fan of dongles, then arguing against hubs is downright silly. And in fact, your next paragraph goes on to praise hubs. So that solves your use case right there. You can't have it both ways. In fact, since you're saying you're going to use hubs ANYWAY, you personally are no worse off with the setup I described! Buy two hubs--one for each of your USB-C ports. What exactly wouldn't you be able to do then that you can do with the 2016-2017 MBP?
    • As for the "dongle issue," it's pretty simple, and once again, I think you're engaging in semantics. When people say they don't want to be required to use dongles, they're implicitly also saying they don't want to be required to use hubs. People don't want to be required to carry stuff around with their allegedly portable computer. And, more than that, people don't want to be required to USE that stuff for most use cases. Whether that's a dongle or a hub--the same principle applies. It becomes a mandatory accessory.
    • And as for "dongles is bad news," dongles are an unnecessary annoyance. This, too, is a simple point. No one said anything about how "professional" it makes someone (or if they did, it wasn't me). It's just a pain.

    TL/DR: a setup similar to that which I described gives many users the ability not to use dongles and/or hubs. People like you were going to buy and use hubs (and/or dongles) anyway, so you're not really disadvantaged either. Like I said, what I proposed is a win-win.
     
  5. xWhiplash, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017

    xWhiplash macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    #905
    Um I did read your post. Not sure why you thought I didn't.

    I just do not find having USB-A, HDMI, SD card, or any other ports as flexible. Again, why not add VGA, DVI, DisplayPort, Mini DisplayPort and more to the list of ports on a system? That would certainly be flexible right? But guess what, I do have four HDMI ports, just a simple $5 HDMI to USB-C cable and I can connect to any of the four ports. I have four ports that can be anything I want. This is what flexible means to me.

    Like I said, flexibility to you means something else. It is fine if we have different ideas on things. It would be boring if everyone on the planet had the same ideas and feelings about stuff.

    There is a difference between two TB3 ports with a hub and four TB3 ports without a hub. For example, an eGPU would suffer if I have that connected to a 5K monitor with a TB3 port than natively connecting it to a free TB3 port on the laptop itself. I do not think a port can double or triple in its maximum bandwidth because it detects a hub attached to it. The 15" has four TB3 ports totaling in 160 Gbps. I do not think just making it two ports makes each port now allowing 80 Gbps.

    USB hubs are different. I do not have TB class performance on my USB devices, so a hub is fine. I am not connecting my eGPU with USB, so a hub is fine.
     
  6. SteveJUAE macrumors 68020

    SteveJUAE

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    Land of Smiles
    #906
    Good for you

    I think the funny part is that ideally a 2 or 4 USB-A ports on a laptop would of equally done all that you require as your not hub/dongle adverse and maybe at times even your 8 port hub would not be required :D

    USB-C/TB3 enabled ports only really kick in when you can afford the add-ons to use the high I/O they are capable of, if you have the right cables to match ie not the one supplied with your MBP

    else

    IMO in these bridging years of USB-C mixed ports suits most
     
  7. xWhiplash macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    #907
    From experience, a 1080p monitor connected to just USB-A is absolutely horrible. DisplayPort over USB-C (not even TB3) is identical to native DisplayPort connections.

    My profession has always had me carry around dozens of dongles. It makes my laptop bag no heavier or bigger because of it. I never know if I need to walk in to an office and need to connect to a projector that only has VGA (I encounter this a lot). Or if they need me to set up at a desk somewhere for a while and only have monitors with DisplayPort cables. Or DVI. Or VGA again. If the business only has Ethernet and not wireless. If I need to connect a keyboard, mouse, and a couple other USB-A devices in (my 2013 rMBP only had two USB-A ports).
     
  8. SteveJUAE macrumors 68020

    SteveJUAE

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    #908
    Exactly my point you have gained little flexibility just using a different hole and a new set of cables/dongles/adapters :rolleyes:
     
  9. john123 macrumors 68020

    john123

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2001
    #909
    Sigh, this and literally every other thing you said was addressed in my previous post. Like I said on this point: semantics. Others have picked up the issues are run with it, so I won't bother repeating myself. You just keep digging your heels in, so really, what's the point?

    You're entitled to your opinion. And if you like your 4 USB-C ports, that's wonderful for you.

    However, I am certain when I say that if you polled most 2017 users and prospective buyers about what they would prefer with respect to their ports right now, you and your viewpoint would be in the minority. I say this as someone with a decade of experience designing and running market research studies, including conjoint analyses, on topics including technology purchases.

    I'm equally certain that, as I also stated previously, it doesn't matter. Apple isn't going to change, so this debate is entirely academic.
     
  10. xWhiplash, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017

    xWhiplash macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    #910
    We are just going in circles on the definition of flexibility.

    What can an HDMI port do? Just HDMI, mini/micro HDMI right?
    What can USB-C/TB3 do? Power, HDMI, DVI, VGA, DisplayPort, Mini DisplayPort, USB-A, USB-B, micro/mini variations of all of these, TB3.

    Which one of those is more flexible? Person A can use HDMI while person B could use it to connect a USB-A to it. How is that NOT flexible?

    Can I power my laptop with HDMI? Can I use my USB external hard drive with HDMI?

    (I am just using HDMI as an example, same can be applied to USB-A - as in TB3 speeds and video out with USB-A are not ideal and you cannot power the laptop with USB-A)
    --- Post Merged, Oct 23, 2017 ---
    If there is indeed a major backlash of USB-C only ports, Apple will change. But I am not the only person around in my area that has the same feelings about it. I think you would be surprised.

    Isn't this what I said the last two times? That your thoughts and ideas are fine too and we can like/want different things? I tried to be nice stating that it is okay that we like/need/want different things, but I get the feeling with your "sigh" and "digging my heels in" comment that I am just done now. What is the point of a forum then? My opinions do not match yours so I should just shut up otherwise I am "digging my heels in"?

    I do this for a living. If somebody came to me saying they absolutely could NOT live without USB-A ports, I would not give them advice about picking up the 2016/2017 MacBook Pro. Different needs, different systems.
     
  11. SteveJUAE macrumors 68020

    SteveJUAE

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    #911
    I think you mixing your replies up LOL and flogging a dead horse we know you like dongles etc and some of us like mixed port options enough said
     
  12. john123 macrumors 68020

    john123

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2001
    #912
    I literally just addressed this too. Ugh.
    --- Post Merged, Oct 23, 2017 ---
    And this. We are NOT talking about you personally versus me personally. For the third time now.
     
  13. xWhiplash macrumors 68000

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    Oct 21, 2009
    #913
    No you did not. This is what you said:

    I said, they WOULD if they got SO MUCH BACKLASH. You said they would not. If everyone on the planet complained to them, they would change. You would be surprised how many people are satisfied with the port situation.

    I am not going to turn this into a battle. So sorry for my part in it. Your idea of flexibility is single use ports while my idea of flexibility is a standardized port that can do anything. Again, we can think what we want. Different people need different computer setups.
     
  14. john123 macrumors 68020

    john123

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2001
    #914
    Except they don't.

    You say you don't want to "turn this into a battle," but by not reading and twisting people's (my own included) words, that's what you have done. And an artificial battle at that, since you continue to engage in semantics. As many times as I've had to point that out, I have to wonder if you're unfamiliar with what "semantics" means.

    No one said "backlash." Not me. Not the other posters. Just you.

    As for "you would be surprised how many people are satisfied with the port situation," again, I've done market research studies on people's technology preferences. You haven't.

    And you confuse "satisfied" with "not ideal but not a deal breaker."
     
  15. PowerMac G4 MDD macrumors 68000

    PowerMac G4 MDD

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    #915
    You're just like the guys who complained about Apple not including a floppy drive with their original 1998 iMac. Get over it... single-use ports are dying out. A single USB-C port can do so many things.

    Also, a desktop setup is stationary anyway... is it that big of a deal to use a hub while the MacBook is docked? You don't load photos until you're home, right?
     
  16. xWhiplash macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    #916
    Let’s just drop this ok? It’s going nowhere. I did not twist your words. I didn’t say that you were the one who said backlash. I did say that because if 100% of MacBook Pro owners complained about the ports, we would see change.

    I know plenty of people with the new systems. They were hesitant at first but absolutely love the USB-C / TB3 ports after owning the system.
     
  17. SteveJUAE macrumors 68020

    SteveJUAE

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    #917
    No one is denying this but until it's universal this interim stage can be a PIA for many and possibly more so if you travel
     
  18. xWhiplash macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    #918
    I can see how that can be an issue. I have so many dongles in my laptop bag, but they really don’t add to the weight or add bulk to it.

    In my profession, I always needed adapters and hubs.
     
  19. Abazigal macrumors G3

    Abazigal

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    Singapore
    #919
    And that is why we need a company like Apple to push technology forward, because it’s clear that there are many people who, left to their own devices, are never going to change and adapt.

    This is precisely how generational shifts work - first you try to force the new tool to fit the old workflow, and then the new tool creates a new workflow. Both parts are painful and full of denial, but the new model is ultimately much better than the old.

    So to the people still clamouring for the return of old ports, my advice to you is to adapt and move on. Short-term pain is better than long-term suffering, as the saying goes. Otherwise, you can complain and gripe all you want, but the only person you are doing a disservice to is yourself.
     
  20. convergent macrumors 68030

    convergent

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #920
    That's awesome for you. I don't NEED a bunch of dongles if my machine has the right ports. As a traveling consultant, I find it looks totally unprofessional if I need to create a rats nest of dongles to do basic things when I am in a meeting room. And every extra dongle adds weight and bulk. When I moved to the Surface Pro, I reduced about half my traveling weight and bulk, and I love it. I ditched the iPad and all the crap that went with it, the full sized laptop and charger, and I bought the most compact external drive available. I still ended up with a couple of dongles so a few more dedicated ports would have been even better.
     
  21. SteveJUAE, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017

    SteveJUAE macrumors 68020

    SteveJUAE

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    #921
    Yes, but I would not mind if all USB-C dongles were equal and there was one USB-C cable that does all which adds to the PIA

    We have several USB-C only devices since 2015 sometimes the Apple dongle works other times it does not and the equivalent Samsung one does and vice versa then through charging may not work :rolleyes:

    Sometimes it's just easier to pull out a W10 laptop and cast when my wife wants one of her UK soaps abroad

    I stayed in a hotel the other week in the middle east and the hallway WiFi went down fortunately my backup laptop has a port for Ethernet

    As you know crap happens and most offices still have VGA projectors in meeting rooms and swapping files using flash drives post meetings is common as often you do not have access to client networks and files may be to big for email

    My little dash cam I use for hire cars has micro SD

    USB-C has not made any significant improvements in many scenarios and given that 80% of it's capability is the same as USB-A, it's solved little

    Yes charging capabilities are better/higher for laptops etc that have larger batteries but many small notebooks charge via micro usb, but equally you lose port when charging

    USB-C has great potential and with TB3 on top can be amazing but I doubt very few of us currently have 2/3/4 TB3 add-ons and very likely never will

    This before we get to the mess of different USB-C cable options which must confuse the hell out of many

    Although you say it adds little to your bulk I find many international airlines are getting stricter with carry on baggage and it's easy to get up to 7 or even 9Kgs with 2 laptops, bag of cables/dongles external SSD and a few personal items and I use a small Tumi backpack that weighs nothing

    Sure for many who use their laptops at home or at school will encounter little issues and can pop down to Best Buy in 2 mins should they need something and can't see what the fuss is about :) until they go aboard on holiday

    PS I even used my superdrive the other day as someone gave me a box set of Star Trek DVD's :D which is good for when streaming plays up some evenings in Thailand
    --- Post Merged, Oct 23, 2017 ---
    Thanks I agree and I adopted and moved on since 2015 with USB-C :)

    Whilst it may sound good that Apple are helping to push forward the greater world population are just not aware and when it comes to $ for the poorer nations and users it's not even on their radar for the foreseeable, sure it will trickle down eventually and has to start, but that will be years
     
  22. xWhiplash macrumors 68000

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    Oct 21, 2009
    #922
    Why does everything have to turn into such a hassle on this site?

    What do you do when the projector in that meeting room has VGA? What would you say? "I don’t believe in dongles as it makes me look unprofessional so I can’t present with this projector. "
     
  23. PowerMac G4 MDD macrumors 68000

    PowerMac G4 MDD

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    #923
    I digress here, but I've attended several lectures in which the sole reason the presentation faltered was Windows itself being Windows. Any Mac is going be a better machine for displaying content over a projector, since OSX isn't a pile of trash. Windows has so many inherent flaws, I wouldn't trust it even if my machine had every video port known to man.

    Last time this happened, I went to help out and found that Windows 10 ended up crashing before I could screw around with the TWO conflicting audio managers that the laptop had. I turned towards the viewers and said, "Does anyone have a Mac?"
     
  24. Abazigal macrumors G3

    Abazigal

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    Singapore
    #924
    The ironic thing is that for VGA projectors in the very least, you are likely already using an adaptor to begin. Be it mini-display or HDMI to VGA. You aren’t any better or worse off using a USB-C to VGA in its place.
     
  25. Euro_Guy, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017

    Euro_Guy macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    #925
    And this concludes the argument: For you, no matter what ports a pc might have, in your opinion a mac will ALWAYS be better than a Windows pc.

    You have every right to hold that opinion. Just as you hold every right to believe you know a pro photographer's workflow from your own experiences with a Sony A 6000, as per your argument from yesterday.

    To me, it is absurd in so many ways to claim that a Windows pc is a priori not able to show a presentation, that I choose not participate any further in the discussion.

    I am not sure if you are not aware of basic facts or just trolling, but alas I do not find this debate is going anywhere meaningful. I wish you all the best.
     

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