Microsoft Says New Surface Pro is 1.7× Faster Than iPad Pro With 35% More Battery Life

[profets]

Definitely not MY ideal computer, not even close.
[doublepost=1495721796][/doublepost]The highlighted part is all I am referring to here and I would suggest saying it is becoming a primary computer. Almost everyone's? I think that may be a little optimistic. I base that purely on my experience as a friend and neighbor helping others with their computers and the demographic is seniors older than 55.
I do agree with the statement about seniors having a hard time grasping how to use a mouse but in every case, these are folks who never used a computer before and are trying to stay up to date with technology as they age, and are almost literally forced to have a computing device.

I think your definition of "the majority of people in the world" (in the context of computers) is another definition than mine. Your definition only seems to include (non technical savvy) home users doing some media consumption.
In my definition the majority of computer users in the world are people who use their computers for work. People working in offices or professionally from home. Most of those people need desktop OS computers and in their cases an IPad Pro simply will not do.
The post PC era has not happened at all since 99% of the professional work (varying from MS Office to high end graphical and 3d design) still can't be done on an iPad or smart phone but still has to be done on machines with a desktop OS.

In your definition you simply rule out the whole professional workforce in the world.

One other comment, for the folks I know, that own an ipad, they much prefer their desktop computer for most of their computing chores including media consumption. Their ipads, like ours (mine and wife's) is purely used for convenience when we are away from the desktops. And most of this desktop preference is based on having a large easy to read screen, a mouse, and a regular keyboard. All are much preferred over the ipad setup especially for long term browsing/consumption.

Yes, I'm ignoring work places right now. I'm speaking about people as individuals and what would be ideal for personal computing.

Do you agree that most people are not technically savvy like we are?

And for most people, for personal computing, an iPad is ideal. I mentioned earlier - security, easy of use, quick access for installing software. I'd still like to hear some reasons why they should be using MacOS or Windows. And remember, for every day consumer use.

And regard the post PC era. Do you honestly disagree that most people's primary computer is their phone?

 

[DNichter]

I think your definition of "the majority of people in the world" (in the context of computers) is another definition than mine. Your definition only seems to include (non technical savvy) home users doing some media consumption.
In my definition the majority of computer users in the world are people who use their computers for work. People working in offices or professionally from home. Most of those people need desktop OS computers and in their cases an IPad Pro simply will not do.
The post PC era has not happened at all since 99% of the professional work (varying from MS Office to high end graphical and 3d design) still can't be done on an iPad or smart phone but still has to be done on machines with a desktop OS.

In your definition you simply rule out the whole professional workforce in the world.

I think it is beginning to be somewhat valid to remove the workforce from this discussion. I understand that is a part of it, but here is what I am seeing. A lot of people work in an office setting, and they are typically given a desktop or laptop to use daily. Unless your work comes home with you, there is less and less "work" (completely subjective and different from person to person) that needs to be done at home. For home use, a lot of people are able to get by just using an iPhone or an iPad (or anything similar). An iPad won't replace a computer in an office setting for a lot of people, but it is becoming easier to have an iPad as your only computer at home. I think this will become more and more prevalent. **This is just my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of anyone else on this forum**

 

[MacFather]

Deleted.

 

[convergent]

I think it is beginning to be somewhat valid to remove the workforce from this discussion. I understand that is a part of it, but here is what I am seeing. A lot of people work in an office setting, and they are typically given a desktop or laptop to use daily. Unless your work comes home with you, there is less and less "work" (completely subjective and different from person to person) that needs to be done at home. For home use, a lot of people are able to get by just using an iPhone or an iPad (or anything similar). An iPad won't replace a computer in an office setting for a lot of people, but it is becoming easier to have an iPad as your only computer at home. I think this will become more and more prevalent. **This is just my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of anyone else on this forum**

Except that this thread is talking about a "pro" device, which by definition kind of goes along with something you might use in the workplace. Microsoft's Office suite is used by the vast majority businesses, and so Microsoft is very much about trying to leverage that and make the experience better. All the hoopla in other threads here about how Apple has turned their back on the "pro" customer applies. Microsoft is and will be very focussed on them.

The good part is that there are plenty of people in the world that want a consumption device for the non tech savvy, and there are plenty of people in the world that want a device to use for the workplace. I don't think we are in danger of either market getting smaller any time soon.

Apple could have really stepped up their presence in the enterprise if they wanted to. The partnerships they struck, and getting IBM to say it was more cost effective to roll out Macs. But for whatever reason, Apple is content to be smartphone company with some other supporting product lines. I don't see that changing until a time comes when iPhone sales curtail.... if that ever happens. My personal opinion is that time will come.

 

[DNichter]

Except that this thread is talking about a "pro" device, which by definition kind of goes along with something you might use in the workplace. Microsoft's Office suite is used by the vast majority businesses, and so Microsoft is very much about trying to leverage that and make the experience better. All the hoopla in other threads here about how Apple has turned their back on the "pro" customer applies. Microsoft is and will be very focussed on them.

The good part is that there are plenty of people in the world that want a consumption device for the non tech savvy, and there are plenty of people in the world that want a device to use for the workplace. I don't think we are in danger of either market getting smaller any time soon.

Apple could have really stepped up their presence in the enterprise if they wanted to. The partnerships they struck, and getting IBM to say it was more cost effective to roll out Macs. But for whatever reason, Apple is content to be smartphone company with some other supporting product lines. I don't see that changing until a time comes when iPhone sales curtail.... if that ever happens. My personal opinion is that time will come.

That's a good point. I have pretty much ignored the "pro" designation with Apple products and just looked at feature sets. I bought (and sold) the 9.7 pro for the quad speakers, much improved screen, and an increase in speed. Sometimes I forget which thread I am in as eventually they all converge haha.

 

[panleya]

No serious writer writes in long hand. That's just dumb. As far as drawing does, that's all fine a great for artists but lets be honest, they make up a small sector of the market. If you're going to be a pure artist, a painter for example, you're still going to paint on a real canvas with real paint. Graphic artists should get a kick out of this, but really nobody else.
[doublepost=1495730399][/doublepost]

I would gladly take Windows over a supersized version of my iPhone 7 Plus......Since the iPad was rumored I always hope it would have full Mac OS

Windows is a dumpster fire falling off a cliff. A giant flaming ball of suck. Cramming Windows onto a screen that is supposed to be designed for touch and the pen is not only lazy, but stupid.

 

[Martyimac]

Yes, I'm ignoring work places right now. I'm speaking about people as individuals and what would be ideal for personal computing.

Do you agree that most people are not technically savvy like we are?

And for most people, for personal computing, an iPad is ideal. I mentioned earlier - security, easy of use, quick access for installing software. I'd still like to hear some reasons why they should be using MacOS or Windows. And remember, for every day consumer use.

And regard the post PC era. Do you honestly disagree that most people's primary computer is their phone?

First point you made -- I agree
Second point you made -- I disagree, your comment is purely opinion, as is mine. But the mac desktops/laptops are pretty secure, very easy to use in fact some commented that their ipads weren't as easy to use as they expected. Quick access to software isn't a concern to any of them thanks to the app store. So the reasons they use the desktops is that they are comfortable with the paradigm. And and that applies to both Mac and Windows users.
Third point you made -- Absolutely disagree. I have done a quick and dirty survey both in social media and at this mornings MUG meeting. The results? -- 100% do NOT use their iPad/iPhone as their primary computer. All mentioned they like the iDevices for consumption and convenience but ALL said they use their desktops/for anything else that would come up. Things like banking, emails, writing letters, photo editing, and web browsing, to name the common uses mentioned.
So in summary, I disagree with the concept that we are in a post PC era.

 

[convergent]

No serious writer writes in long hand. That's just dumb. As far as drawing does, that's all fine a great for artists but lets be honest, they make up a small sector of the market. If you're going to be a pure artist, a painter for example, you're still going to paint on a real canvas with real paint. Graphic artists should get a kick out of this, but really nobody else.
[doublepost=1495730399][/doublepost]
Windows is a dumpster fire falling off a cliff. A giant flaming ball of suck. Cramming Windows onto a screen that is supposed to be designed for touch and the pen is not only lazy, but stupid.

Have you actually used any of the stuff you are calling a "giant flaming ball of suck" and stupid?

Microsoft is doing a lot with the pen.

• You can write freehand math formulas and it can interpret the formula and create a graph.
• It can convert freehand writing to searchable text. In many situations, writing freehand is preferable... its more creative and more personal.
• When doing an interview, I feel a bit awkward typing notes, while I'm quite comfortable writing on a pad.
• You can also draw shapes and it will convert your freehand drawn circles and rectangles to vector graphics.
• One of the especially interesting things you can do with the Surface Pro is record the audio of a lecture/seminar while you are writing in freehand with the pen. During later review of your notes, you can highlight a portion of the freehand text and it will play the portion of the audio that corresponds to the time you wrote that part of your notes. There have been many times I've reviewed my notes and not remembered exactly what I meant.
• Reviewing documents... new integration in the whole MS Office suite... doing mark up and redlining with a pen is much preferred to writing with your index finger which is a bit lacking detail.
• Have you seen the Studio and the integration of touch, pen, and dial? Its a beautiful thing. While Microsoft was busy announcing that, Apple was rolling out their touch bar.

What's lazy and stupid is Apple ruling out touch and pen entirely on there computers while Microsoft is continuing to explore and develop new capabilities with it. Is it perfect? No. Is it getting better and better? Yes. Microsoft has proven they will keep sticking with something over the long term. Maybe Apple will come around. Jobs said no to the pen, and yet out comes the pencil. Maybe they will see the light with the touch bar and rethink some things. Its good to have multiple players in the game trying different things.
[doublepost=1495734143][/doublepost]

First point you made -- I agree
Second point you made -- I disagree, your comment is purely opinion, as is mine. But the mac desktops/laptops are pretty secure, very easy to use in fact some commented that their ipads weren't as easy to use as they expected. Quick access to software isn't a concern to any of them thanks to the app store. So the reasons they use the desktops is that they are comfortable with the paradigm. And and that applies to both Mac and Windows users.
Third point you made -- Absolutely disagree. I have done a quick and dirty survey both in social media and at this mornings MUG meeting. The results? -- 100% do NOT use their iPad/iPhone as their primary computer. All mentioned they like the iDevices for consumption and convenience but ALL said they use their desktops/for anything else that would come up. Things like banking, emails, writing letters, photo editing, and web browsing, to name the common uses mentioned.
So in summary, I disagree with the concept that we are in a post PC era.

Bottom line is that trying to use an iPad as a replacement for a full function computer is like trying to do any physical task with one hand tied behind your back. There are constraints on you keeping you in a small box. For more savvy people, they are going to miss that. For a large portion of users that just use their computer to browse the web, do email, and consume media... they are not going to feel constrained and enjoy the simplicity of the iPad. I am the first, and my wife is the second. There will be a market for both.

 

[Martyimac]

Have you actually used any of the stuff you are calling a "giant flaming ball of suck" and stupid?

Microsoft is doing a lot with the pen.

• You can write freehand math formulas and it can interpret the formula and create a graph.
• It can convert freehand writing to searchable text. In many situations, writing freehand is preferable... its more creative and more personal.
• When doing an interview, I feel a bit awkward typing notes, while I'm quite comfortable writing on a pad.
• You can also draw shapes and it will convert your freehand drawn circles and rectangles to vector graphics.
• One of the especially interesting things you can do with the Surface Pro is record the audio of a lecture/seminar while you are writing in freehand with the pen. During later review of your notes, you can highlight a portion of the freehand text and it will play the portion of the audio that corresponds to the time you wrote that part of your notes. There have been many times I've reviewed my notes and not remembered exactly what I meant.
• Reviewing documents... new integration in the whole MS Office suite... doing mark up and redlining with a pen is much preferred to writing with your index finger which is a bit lacking detail.
• Have you seen the Studio and the integration of touch, pen, and dial? Its a beautiful thing. While Microsoft was busy announcing that, Apple was rolling out their touch bar.

What's lazy and stupid is Apple ruling out touch and pen entirely on there computers while Microsoft is continuing to explore and develop new capabilities with it. Is it perfect? No. Is it getting better and better? Yes. Microsoft has proven they will keep sticking with something over the long term. Maybe Apple will come around. Jobs said no to the pen, and yet out comes the pencil. Maybe they will see the light with the touch bar and rethink some things. Its good to have multiple players in the game trying different things.

Well said. As a user of W10 I am finding more to like about it and if I ever need a tablet/laptop replacement, the surface pro will be on the short list.

 

[profets]

First point you made -- I agree
Second point you made -- I disagree, your comment is purely opinion, as is mine. But the mac desktops/laptops are pretty secure, very easy to use in fact some commented that their ipads weren't as easy to use as they expected. Quick access to software isn't a concern to any of them thanks to the app store. So the reasons they use the desktops is that they are comfortable with the paradigm. And and that applies to both Mac and Windows users.
Third point you made -- Absolutely disagree. I have done a quick and dirty survey both in social media and at this mornings MUG meeting. The results? -- 100% do NOT use their iPad/iPhone as their primary computer. All mentioned they like the iDevices for consumption and convenience but ALL said they use their desktops/for anything else that would come up. Things like banking, emails, writing letters, photo editing, and web browsing, to name the common uses mentioned.
So in summary, I disagree with the concept that we are in a post PC era.

There you go - all things that could be done easily on iOS/iPad.

So you truly believe, that the device the average consumer or most consumers spend time on is not their smart phone?

 

[mi7chy]

Um... "dummy OS without true multi-thread"? iOS is the same core as macOS / OS X. It absolutely is multithreaded. Just because third-party apps cannot choose when to stay active doesn't make it not multithreaded. And apps *CAN* be written in a way that they stay active when not in front.

They might share BSD unix roots but iOS is dumbed down to maximize Apple's profit. The background multitasking limitation of iOS is imposed by the OS and not by apps and the reasoning for that is so that Apple can equip devices with minimal battery and DRAM to maximize profit. Furthermore, even as consumption devices iOS and iPads are weak since Apple maximize profit by not paying license for modern codecs like HEVC and don't implement modern HEVC and VP9 hardware acceleration into silicon.

 

[JMacHack]

They might share BSD unix roots but iOS is dumbed down to maximize Apple's profit. The background multitasking limitation of iOS is imposed by the OS and not by apps and the reasoning for that is so that Apple can equip devices with minimal battery and DRAM to maximize profit.

Which is beneficial for devices like the iPhone, which hardly see heavy computing use.

 

[Martyimac]

There you go - all things that could be done easily on iOS/iPad.

So you truly believe, that the device the average consumer or most consumers spend time on is not their smart phone?

That is a new and completely different question than the one I answered before. And the answer is no, they do spend more time on the iPhones/smartphones purely because it's with them all the time. E.G. Every one of us at the MUG had either an iPhone, an iPad, or both of them with them this morning, including myself (iPhone).
Heck, just about everybody carries a cell phone with them nowdays. My wifes is an old Motorola flip phone, it does all she want's it to do, make and receive phone calls. Her computer at the house is a PC running W10. She prefers the puter over her iPad. My friend has a galaxy S7 and while he does email on it. at home he defers to his windows laptop. Another friend has an iPhone and an iMac. At home, he uses his iphone as his hotspot and surfs on his iMac.
So, two different questions, two different answers.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Or they realize the people using computers for work aren't the majority of computer users.

Check your math.

 

[profets]

That is a new and completely different question than the one I answered before. And the answer is no, they do spend more time on the iPhones/smartphones purely because it's with them all the time. E.G. Every one of us at the MUG had either an iPhone, an iPad, or both of them with them this morning, including myself (iPhone). Heck, just about everybody carries a cell phone with them nowdays. My wifes is an old Motorola flip phone, it does all she want's it to do, make and receive phone calls. Her computer at the house is a PC running W10. She prefers the puter over her iPad. My friend has a galaxy S7 and while he does email on it. at home he defers to his windows laptop. Another friend has an iPhone and an iMac. At home, he uses his iphone as his hotspot and surfs on his iMac.
So, two different questions, two different answers.

Precisely. Computing really grew exponentially with general consumers when the internet came along and communication became a big use for them. That's quickly moved to smartphones over the past decade. Our primary computer is the one that is with us and in our pocket. Post-PC era has happened.

Just look at the sales. In 2016 alone:

PCs: 269,717,000
Smartphones: 1,495,358,000

 

[convergent]

Precisely. Computing really grew exponentially with general consumers when the internet came along and communication became a big use for them. That's quickly moved to smartphones over the past decade. Our primary computer is the one that is with us and in our pocket. Post-PC era has happened.

Just look at the sales. In 2016 alone:

PCs: 269,717,000
Smartphones: 1,495,358,000

No... "Post PC Era" as Apple has proclaimed it, is not here. That would mean that masses of people have abandoned computers for tablets. That is the context the proclamation was made. In the business world, this clearly hasn't happened at all. In the home world, you have people that have added tablets in many cases, but still have a computer in the home. Example, my wife only uses her iPad now, but we still have a home computer I sync it to. I don't see us ever not having the home computer. She doesn't use it, but I do. I suppose if she were single, she may not have one and would have to rely on a subscription to iCloud or something. I also see a lot of people moving to Chromebooks... my daughter being one of them. Is that post-PC or not? I don't know... its a PC, but its running a cloud based OS. Its not what Apple was talking about in their definition of Post PC Era. The vast majority of people that don't need a full function computer can easily get by with a $250 Chromebook ... so over time will many of them spend $1000 for an iPad? I doubt it. Nothing new is happening in the iPad to attract the people that mostly buy them. As a consumption device, there isn't anything the new ones do that you couldn't do with the older ones. So the iPad market will continue to decline. I have two, and haven't used them in over a year. My wife has a first gen iPad Air. I don't see her every replacing it until it dies. It does everything she wants to do. You have to remember that the folks who aren't geeks don't care about all this fluffy stuff that is getting added in minor OS updates.

 

[Martyimac]

Precisely. Computing really grew exponentially with general consumers when the internet came along and communication became a big use for them. That's quickly moved to smartphones over the past decade. Our primary computer is the one that is with us and in our pocket. Post-PC era has happened.

Just look at the sales. In 2016 alone:

PCs: 269,717,000
Smartphones: 1,495,358,000

I still disagree with your overall premise. While the iphone MAY be the computer that is with us all the time, I still maintain that the PC era is not over and that folks prefer the PC over the iphone when given a choice. Time spent with the iphone at hand does not mean it is the preferred device. Again, different definition of primary vs preferred.

And as to sales figures, I have bought 6-7 iphones over a time period corresponding to my buying 2 PC's. PC's do not get replaced nearly as often as smartphones. My newest PC is the 2015 13" rMPB because my older MBP died. Everyone is caught up in the newest and greatest phone. Even I was caught up in that paradigm but at this point, my 6s will last me at least another 2 years, maybe more. The new phones just wont do anything any better, that I want, than my current iPhone. So as far as I am concerned, PC vs smartphone sales figures are apples to oranges.

 

[profets]

No... "Post PC Era" as Apple has proclaimed it, is not here. That would mean that masses of people have abandoned computers for tablets. That is the context the proclamation was made. In the business world, this clearly hasn't happened at all. In the home world, you have people that have added tablets in many cases, but still have a computer in the home. Example, my wife only uses her iPad now, but we still have a home computer I sync it to. I don't see us ever not having the home computer. She doesn't use it, but I do. I suppose if she were single, she may not have one and would have to rely on a subscription to iCloud or something. I also see a lot of people moving to Chromebooks... my daughter being one of them. Is that post-PC or not? I don't know... its a PC, but its running a cloud based OS. Its not what Apple was talking about in their definition of Post PC Era. The vast majority of people that don't need a full function computer can easily get by with a $250 Chromebook ... so over time will many of them spend $1000 for an iPad? I doubt it. Nothing new is happening in the iPad to attract the people that mostly buy them. As a consumption device, there isn't anything the new ones do that you couldn't do with the older ones. So the iPad market will continue to decline. I have two, and haven't used them in over a year. My wife has a first gen iPad Air. I don't see her every replacing it until it dies. It does everything she wants to do. You have to remember that the folks who aren't geeks don't care about all this fluffy stuff that is getting added in minor OS updates.

That's fair. When I say Post PC I don't mean it in the context that Apple ever mentioned (honestly can't even remember when or how they said that). But I'm talking about the move to smartphones myself and an extension of that - iPad being ideal for most consumers.

I get it - you having a computer at home; I'm sitting in front of a Mac every day. But it doesn't mean that for most consumers an iPad isn't ideal.

And honestly I agree mostly with the Chromebook too. Not a device that I like, but for what the majority of consumers need, it fits the bill.

And yes, folks who aren't geeks are exactly who I'm talking about as most consumers. What do they use most? Messaging, camera/photos, email, social, etc. All of which they likely do most of on their smartphone.
[doublepost=1495738299][/doublepost]

I still disagree with your overall premise. While the iphone MAY be the computer that is with us all the time, I still maintain that the PC era is not over and that folks prefer the PC over the iphone when given a choice. Time spent with the iphone at hand does not mean it is the preferred device. Again, different definition of primary vs preferred.

Ok, let me ask you a question. For most consumers (not us geeks), if they have both a smartphone and a PC (majority likely only have a smartphone anyway), if they were asked to get rid of one device, which do you think they would keep? The smartphone or the PC?

And as to sales figures, I have bought 6-7 iphones over a time period corresponding to my buying 2 PC's. PC's do not get replaced nearly as often as smartphones. My newest PC is the 2015 13" rMPB because my older MBP died. Everyone is caught up in the newest and greatest phone. Even I was caught up in that paradigm but at this point, my 6s will last me at least another 2 years, maybe more. The new phones just wont do anything any better, that I want, than my current iPhone. So as far as I am concerned, PC vs smartphone sales figures are apples to oranges.

I do agree, phones are turned over more frequently than PCs, but not at the rate that smartphones are outselling PCs. And there definitely are people who keep their phones for longer period of times than you and I (I buy and sell every year, though in all honestly these devices are reaching the point where they can last for 3-4 years).

But I stand by my opinion, I see it every day. The majority of consumers are using a smartphone all day long. They're attached to them. They've become their primary and preferred method of computing. And if need they need a bigger screen at home, an iPad can be ideal.

 

[itguy06]

I didn't miss the point of a 2in1 at all. My opinion is that a removable keyboard makes what you described way better. Folding the keyboard around 360 degrees is going to result in a device that is way too heavy to hold like a tablet. The Surface Pro, with keyboard removed, is still heavier than the iPad, but not so much so that its unusable. In fact, its pretty close in weight to the original iPad when it was released. Also, having a keyboard on the back of your tablet is kind of weird. I get the 2in1 but prefer the removable keyboard to a 360 degree hinge.

Not to be confrontational but you did. It's not a device for hand holding like a tablet. It's more than that. When I had an iPad I never handheld it. I'd bet many iPads are used just like that. Once it's on a table or in a lap it works great. If you handhold it then none of the 2-in-1s are good but as a hybrid device they rock. I don't know why Apple doesn't just concede that point and try it.

I do get the idea that a keyboard on the back is weird. It is and takes some getting used to. But the unit I have has larger bezels at the top and bottom so you rarely grab the keyboard.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Precisely. Computing really grew exponentially with general consumers when the internet came along and communication became a big use for them. That's quickly moved to smartphones over the past decade. Our primary computer is the one that is with us and in our pocket. Post-PC era has happened.

Just look at the sales. In 2016 alone:

PCs: 269,717,000
Smartphones: 1,495,358,000

Sales numbers and usage numbers aren't necessarily related. For instance:

I didn't purchase a computer in 2016.

But I used a computer EVERY SINGLE DAY in 2016.

You're quick to point out how the sales numbers of smartphones dwarf the sales numbers of PCs. And that's absolutely true.

But did you consider that you can get a smartphone for $50 in some parts of the world?

China and India alone are 2.6 billion people. They buy a lot of smartphones.

But they don't buy a lot of PCs.

I was just stating how the sales numbers don't really tell the whole story.

You buy something once... but you can keep using it for an indeterminate amount of time. Look at how many people here use 5+ year old Macs...

 

[Michael Goff]

Check your math.

I did. Where is your math that says otherwise?

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I did. Where is your math that says otherwise?

Where's yours? (You DID check it didn't you? )

 

[profets]

Sales numbers and usage numbers aren't necessarily related. For instance:

I didn't purchase a computer in 2016.

But I used a computer EVERY SINGLE DAY in 2016.

You're quick to point out how the sales numbers of smartphones dwarf the sales numbers of PCs. And that's absolutely true.

But did you consider that you can get a smartphone for $50 in some parts of the world?

China and India alone are 2.6 billion people. They buy a lot of smartphones.

But they don't buy a lot of PCs.

I was just stating how the sales numbers don't really tell the whole story.

You buy something once... but you can keep using it for an indeterminate amount of time. Look at how many people here use 5+ year old Macs...

I don't disagree. Sales numbers don't tell the whole story, but they are quite telling in a way. In a single year smartphones outsold PCs 5.5:1.

I would find it very hard to believe that smartphones, for the majority of consumers aren't their primary device.

I did. Where is your math that says otherwise?

Where's yours? (You DID check it didn't you? )

LOL

 

[Michael Goff]

Where's yours? (You DID check it didn't you? )

My math is based on the assumption that the easiest way to determine the number of computer users is to look at mobile numbers. There are some people whose only computers are smart phones and visa versa, but that number seems to be most likely to be real.

2b Android
1b iOS

3b computer users

Now let's do some simple math and determine which type of job is more prevelant. Computer jobs or not computer jobs?

 

[convergent]

Not to be confrontational but you did. It's not a device for hand holding like a tablet. It's more than that. When I had an iPad I never handheld it. I'd bet many iPads are used just like that. Once it's on a table or in a lap it works great. If you handhold it then none of the 2-in-1s are good but as a hybrid device they rock. I don't know why Apple doesn't just concede that point and try it.

I do get the idea that a keyboard on the back is weird. It is and takes some getting used to. But the unit I have has larger bezels at the top and bottom so you rarely grab the keyboard.

But wouldn't you rather be able to completely remove the keyboard? I don't see how that is a bad thing.