To be fair the A9X IS actually quite powerful. But what does it help on a crippled mobile OS.
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Microsoft Says New Surface Pro is 1.7× Faster Than iPad Pro With 35% More Battery Life
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To be fair the A9X IS actually quite powerful. But what does it help on a crippled mobile OS.
Knowing it's limited to MS Store apps, yep it's S for S**T. No testing needed. Thanks but it's based on features, or lack thereof. Also if it has the same ADs and Spyware as windows 10 then yeah it's based on a foundation of S**T. Even windows 8.1 was better than this BS MS is pulling right now.
Holy crap, those prices. 4GB RAM, A9X CPU, 128GB storage... £819.00??!Holy crap, those prices. 4GB RAM, i5 CPU, 128GB SSD... £979??!
You were credible until you said W 8.1 was better than 10. W 8.1 was a poorly done upgrade to 8 which was as bad, if not worse than Vista and that is saying a lot. We have 2 W 10 computers in the house which are head and shoulders better than 8.1 would EVER be. Of course like your opinion, this one is mine. YMMV
You can do 'serious work' with a pen and paper, but that's not the point.
I'm a good example: I'm a photographer - I deal with thousands of images at a time, usually starting with Capture One Pro, and occasionally round-tripping into Photoshop etc. I can't do that on an iPad, I can on a Surface pro. A lot of the time I don't want to bring my iMac, and I don't want to bring my laptop. an iPad (if it could do what I need it to - it can't) would be the perfect form factor. The Surface Pro offers a similar sized package, is more capable (can run the programs I mentioned) and I can plug a hard drive into it too. I can use it as a tablet when I need to, so to me it's a better hybrid option because it offers more. All of this makes the iPad seem a bit lacking. Whichever way you look at it, it just can't do as much as the Surface Pro.
What difference does it make how fast it is if it does not run the software you want to use?
Windows is infinitely more productive than iOS, which can only run some games.
I think you miss the use case of the 2-in-1. Yes they tout it as a tablet but I agree I don't think I'd want to use one as a tablet for a long period of time. But when I had an iPad the first thing I got for it was a keyboard and used it like a normal laptop so I don't know I ever handheld it either.
But with the 360 hinge it's immensely useful. I've got one on my PC and, honestly it's awesome for graphics and everyday use.
- Want to draw on the screen? Fold it back into tablet mode and lay it on the table or your lap and use the pen and you've got a Cintiq. Win 10 has an onscreen keyboard or use a USB one.
- Want to show a bunch of people stuff? Fold it like an A and have a better presentation. Also useful for drawing on the screen?
- Fold it flat on a table and you can do all the above. Maybe even trace something if that's your thing.
- Watch movies or surf the net in bed? Fold it backwards so the keyboard is face down. Instant tablet.
- Also it's infinitely adjustable so you can orient it no matter what your angle is for good viewing.
I've been converted and really like the functionality it offers. I don't think I could go back to a regular laptop.
Someone ran Cinebench R15 on an i5 Surface Pro:
*For anyone wondering, Cinebench often reports Windows 10 as Windows 8. The Surface Pro is in fact running Windows 10.
For comparison (source - Notebookcheck 1 2)
Cinebench R15
Surface Pro (fanless / Windows) - i5-7300U / HD 620
*For anyone wondering, Cinebench often reports Windows 10 as Windows 8. The Surface Pro is in fact running Windows 10.
For comparison (source - Notebookcheck 1 2)
Cinebench R15
Surface Pro (fanless / Windows) - i5-7300U / HD 620
- CPU multi 64Bit: 337
- OpenGL 64Bit: 33.26
- CPU multi 64Bit: 309
- OpenGL 64Bit: 35.34
- CPU multi 64Bit: 339
- OpenGL 64Bit: 36.9
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Microsoft mainly compares the surface pro to laptops, which is what you hear apple fanboys always hollering about. Personally I think they should also directly compare it to the ipad. An ipad with a faster chip, so what? So I can run Instagram faster? It doesn't matter because there are no applications which really take advantage of it, certainly no desktop type applications like MS office and such. Better battery life, yes that will always be good, but there is still a trade off. The consumer will have to decide if they can live with a crippled device with awesome battery life they can use as a great consumption device, or if they want to sacrifice some battery life in order to have a full desktop experience. Certainly the needs of the consumer take precedence here, everyone is different and my needs are most likely not the same as yours.
I don't necessarily agree that MS isn't taking some ipad users, although I don't think it's a huge amount. Personally I fall right into that category. I loved my ipad, thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But as soon as the first windows tablet came out I dropped it like a hot potato. I highly doubt I was the only ipad convert.
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Haha this one really made me laugh as well. Yep ecosystem is better, OneDrive, OneNote, the MS office suite all synced up, File system tied into OneDrive that I can actually access, some apps but whatever apps are missing are easily replicated by web or programs, support is top notch with Microsoft physical locations just like Apple, windows 10 mobile has nothing to do with this conversation, etc etc.
Overall usability is optimized for touch in most areas, this is an area Microsoft continues to rapidly improve. For the core OS they have almost changed all aspects to be touch friendly. But even then the smaller aspects aren't that unfriendly at all, and the surface pro's screen is very responsive and very accurate even with very small items. Although I see far smaller items to touch on webpages on a daily basis, but people still seem to be ok with them on the ipad. Plus I'll trade you windows small UI elements for that teeny tiny little back arrow Apple uses in iOS.
Excel on an ipad? Yeah I wouldn't do that, but on my SP4 I can. Not only has excel been modified to work great on touchscreens, if I need to do really heavy work I can swing out the keyboard and a mouse and I'm all set for desktop level work.
I really wish all the windows 10 detractors would just use windows 10. There have been so many changes in very rapid succession that even if the last time you used windows 10 was a month ago you would be missing out on. Little things like the entire control panel being ported to a touchscreen paradigm inside of settings just to name one out of many. It's not like iOS where you see just a very few changes a few times a year, Microsoft is cranking these changes out on a weekly basis.
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The point I was making was... $2,700 is a lot to spend on any computer with a mobile dual-core i7 and no dedicated GPU. That's what the earlier comments were hinting at.
And that's why I suggested a combo of a powerful desktop and a light laptop.
Yes... syncing data might be a pain (though less so with various cloud services we have now... would be fine for smaller documents... not giant video files...)
But sure... one computer that is both mobile and dockable is great. Just realize you're paying A LOT of money for not very much performance per dollar.
Aren't you gonna cry when you plug your $2,700 Surface Pro into your 4K monitor when it doesn't have a dedicated GPU?
Survey says...EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. I have my surface pro 3 (yes 2 generations ago) that I use as my main work PC plugged into two (2) 4k monitors and I'm sitting here typing this on that setup. The SP3 acts as a 3rd screen that I can use to sign documents, overflow and things like that. It's the i5/256gb SP3 by the way.
I don't disagree that $2700 is a lot, but you can get by with the $799 entry level one, of the $1199 one I am using (which is probably closer to $300 second hand these days). But you can say that about anything, I can say why spend so much on a $1k iPhone when you can get an equally decent smartphone for 1/3 of the price? We all have our needs and maybe under that list of needs is mobility and the ability to only have a single PC instead of several PCs, a laptop and an ipad. If I was going to spend that much (and I am) I'd get a Surface Studio which is just a bit more.
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Even there it loses IMO, although that's definitely a preference thing. I can run PC games on my SP4, and yes it plays the latest and greatest with all the settings turned down, which still look great. Personally I think games on iOS mostly suck because of the interface limitations. Once again just my opinion. Now back to being productive by not playing games, sigh.
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I have a Surface Pro 4 and its probably the worst piece of junk ever. BAD laptop, AWFUL tablet. The worst of both worlds. If you want to do real work and need a Windows machines (poor souls), get a Lenovo or Dell.
All of the ecosystem points you made are available on iOS or macOS. It's good that Microsoft is continuing to improve the touch aspect of the OS, but it is just not there yet. You are correct about the Excel point, I wouldn't want to use any tablet (Apple or otherwise) for that. A laptop like the Surface Pro or MacBook? Sure, makes sense. I have said many times that I enjoy Windows 10, I think it is a great platform for Windows 10 to build on. I just don't see the Surface Pro as a tablet. The same way I don't view an iPad as a laptop. I think the comparisons are silly, but I think we can both admit the iPad is the better tablet and the Surface the better laptop. Easy enough.
Well yeah, that's the point, MS has just as many ecosystem benefits as iOS. Really more IMO because of the integration, not only within MS products but with ALL products such as my iPhone or android phone. On the touch aspect I'm not fully disagreeing with you at all, I just think it's quite overblown and many make it seem like you are using windows xp or windows 7 on a touchscreen, when the reality is a FAR cry from that. Personally I don't think what makes a good touch interface is necessarily huge buttons and sometimes on an ipad I feel like a toddler, why do I need such fine control when the accuracy of the screen is plenty for me to click on small items? I always envision someone writing their masters thesis on an ipad, one handed while standing on the subway, yeah those huge buttons may come in handy. I guess my point is that we can reach too far the other way and make things too simple, too touchable, and end up complicating things by losing functionality.
Great discussion BTW. No we still disagree, I think the SP4 is the better "tablet", but that's ok because we are just espousing our opinions. Nothing we say is a fact, it's just we prefer different things in a tablet. In the end I am thankful that we are even having this discussion because it means we have choices, choices between what are pretty incredible pieces of technology. Building my first 80286 beige box 30 years ago I'd never have imagined I'd have something infinitely more powerful in the palm of my hand, whether it is the ipad or the SP.
Absolutely, always good to have a discussion seeing both sides. I couldn't agree more about the opinion part. We have every right to feel differently about a given topic. It seems that a lot of people on here forget that sometimes. I do have to ask though, since you still feel the SP4 is the better tablet. Would you still feel the same way if it were a touch only device?
No it doesn't, stop spreading lies. Read up on things and you'll look less like a fool.
Nah, that's not accurate. According to AnandTech the SP4 gets about 7.83 hours browsing, 9.37 hours video playback (which makes MS claims pretty accurate as they base them on video playback).
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9727/the-microsoft-surface-pro-4-review-raising-the-bar/7
And that's an old review, Microsoft did a ton to optimize battery life. The reality for "desktop" type use in my experience is closer to 5-6 hours though, but that's using legacy programs and such and not apps. If the new surface pro brings that up to 7-8 hours I'll be ecstatic.
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As a tablet, yeah I think it would still be the better tablet. But much of the power of the surface pro series is in being able to swing out that keyboard/trackpad and turning it into a laptop/desktop setup. So without the keyboard it would definitely lose a ton of usability with myself.
Another thing I'm really curious about is how the heck you guys live without a kickstand. I will never ever buy a tablet again without a kickstand. How the heck do you prop it up? Are you all just buying that cheap flimsy cover for it, and rolling it back, wow brings back nightmares from when I used to own an ipad. Part of life's pleasures for me is putting my SP4 on my breakfast counter and scrolling through webpages and my news app with my finger as I eat breakfast. Not having a kickstand, or having to use that flimsy non adjustable cover would drain that pleasure right out of me.
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I tend to think that this whole idea of a "tablet" industry is misleading. There is just one successful tablet, the iPad. The iPad was a wild success from the beginning for two reasons: (i) it is sold by Apple, which has the Midas touch; and (ii) it provides a great user experience. Following that success, every company seems to believe they can produce and sell tablets because people want/need tablets. No, they don't. People want the iPad because it is a great product. And sales of the iPad are declining, because perhaps people are realizing they don't really need the iPad, or at least don't need it that much to upgrade every year.
The Surface Pro, for instance, is now being targeted as a laptop. It has always been a laptop, but disguised as a tablet. And it seems to me it is a good laptop but not exactly a replacement for the iPad. The iPad is on a category of its own, and I don't really think there is a huge market for tablets other than the iPad.
Now, Microsoft seems to have done a great job with the new Surface Pro. Apple used to say that you cannot make a toaster and a refrigerator in the same product, and that a laptop with touch screen is a bad ideal because of the vertical screen. Microsoft's concept of the "studio mode" is a slap at Apple's face. It's reconciling the concept of a laptop and a touch screen in an original manner addressing Apple's criticism. Genious.
As a tablet, yeah I think it would still be the better tablet. But much of the power of the surface pro series is in being able to swing out that keyboard/trackpad and turning it into a laptop/desktop setup. So without the keyboard it would definitely lose a ton of usability with myself.
Another thing I'm really curious about is how the heck you guys live without a kickstand. I will never ever buy a tablet again without a kickstand. How the heck do you prop it up? Are you all just buying that cheap flimsy cover for it, and rolling it back, wow brings back nightmares from when I used to own an ipad. Part of life's pleasures for me is putting my SP4 on my breakfast counter and scrolling through webpages and my news app with my finger as I eat breakfast. Not having a kickstand, or having to use that flimsy non adjustable cover would drain that pleasure right out of me.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. To me, when you add a keyboard and trackpad to it, you might as well just be using a laptop. Like people want an iPad that has a keyboard, mouse support, and runs macOS (they sell it, it's called a MacBook). It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me, I see compromises. The kickstand part I have never really thought about. I never used one of my iPads (don't currently own one, mainly a software issue) on a desk/table setting, which I am assuming is the most natural place to use a kickstand. I have always used an iPad sitting on the couch, laying in bed, on the deck, things like that. The smart case and keyboard allows you to prop it up when needed though, it works well although expensive.
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What's the "studio mode"? The rest of your point makes perfect sense to me.
Another thing I'm really curious about is how the heck you guys live without a kickstand. I will never ever buy a tablet again without a kickstand. How the heck do you prop it up? Are you all just buying that cheap flimsy cover for it, and rolling it back, wow brings back nightmares from when I used to own an ipad. Part of life's pleasures for me is putting my SP4 on my breakfast counter and scrolling through webpages and my news app with my finger as I eat breakfast. Not having a kickstand, or having to use that flimsy non adjustable cover would drain that pleasure right out of me.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. To me, when you add a keyboard and trackpad to it, you might as well just be using a laptop. Like people want an iPad that has a keyboard, mouse support, and runs macOS (they sell it, it's called a MacBook). It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me, I see compromises. The kickstand part I have never really thought about. I never used one of my iPads (don't currently own one, mainly a software issue) on a desk/table setting, which I am assuming is the most natural place to use a kickstand. I have always used an iPad sitting on the couch, laying in bed, on the deck, things like that. The smart case and keyboard allows you to prop it up when needed though, it works well although expensive.
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What's the "studio mode"? The rest of your point makes perfect sense to me.
My comment was heavily sarcastic. Of course a computer grade processor will be faster than one designed for a mobile tablet.
Fair enough. To me, when you add a keyboard and trackpad to it, you might as well just be using a laptop. Like people want an iPad that has a keyboard, mouse support, and runs macOS (they sell it, it's called a MacBook). It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me, I see compromises. The kickstand part I have never really thought about. I never used one of my iPads (don't currently own one, mainly a software issue) on a desk/table setting, which I am assuming is the most natural place to use a kickstand. I have always used an iPad sitting on the couch, laying in bed, on the deck, things like that. The smart case and keyboard allows you to prop it up when needed though, it works well although expensive.
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What's the "studio mode"? The rest of your point makes perfect sense to me.[/QUOTE]
Take a look at this:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-pro/overview