Microsoft Shares Holiday Ad Promoting Surface Go Over Apple's iPad: 'Big Dreams Need a Real Computer'

[Martyimac]

Just a voice from the peanut gallery.
Yes the iPad is a computer, as is the iPhone. But it is not a production computer, for me. It is a consumption computer. I take the ipad on vacation because it can do the minimum I need, ie email, searches from my hotel room, etc. But when it comes to writing in a word processor, surfing the web, other things that my desktop does at ease, the ipad doesn't cut it, for ME. I much prefer to have a mouse and a keyboard and a larger screen when I am doing anything on a daily basis.
If they give the iPad the same functionality with folders and file storage options that I like, capability to hook into my 27" 4K monitor and use my favorite keyboard and mouse, then MAYBE I will consider one when the desktop dies. But I don't expect that to happen for at least 8-10 years and by then?

 

[Tinmania]

I don't see these as mentioning any product specifically. It's a generic user of typical PC's at the time, whether it be HP, Lenovo, whatever.

Yea sure. PCs weren't a "competitor" to Apple. That is why they wasted all that money on an ad campaign that did just that.

"Apple never mentions any competitors, or compares their products to anyone."

The above statement is false, no way to wiggle around it. That is why it was funny.

 

[bondr006]

Apple never mentions any competitors products? Someone is drinking the Hard Koolaid

https://youtu.be/VHid1bcf1sM

I'm sure there is more, but I neither have the desire or time.

 

[DNichter]

Yea sure. PCs weren't a "competitor" to Apple. That is why they wasted all that money on an ad campaign that did just that.

"Apple never mentions any competitors, or compares their products to anyone."

The above statement is false, no way to wiggle around it. That is why it was funny.

If there is an Apple ad that specifically mentions a competitors brand or product, let me know. I haven't seen one.

Edit: I see one above. I forgot that they mentioned Vista specifically by name back in the day. I am wrong about this.

 

[H2SO4]

I can't say, I don't know what a cooker is.
[doublepost=1544106539][/doublepost]

I 100% do, I even said so just a little bit down in the exact post you quoted - "I am not oblivious to the fact that laptops, desktops, and all traditional PC's are still completely viable and the best tool for the job for a lot of people and situations."
[doublepost=1544106681][/doublepost]

You can try to diminish what I need a computer for all you want. Here is an excerpt from when someone asked what I use my iPad for daily. If you don't feel that these tasks equate to what a "computer" is needed for, then so be it.

Nope, I sold my MacBook and went iOS/iPad only as my primary computer about 3 years ago. I am in an executive level position for a logistics brokerage. I use my iPad mainly for email, performance dashboard management (Safari/Excel), talent management (Safari), drafting proposals for clients (Word), FaceTime meetings with my virtual team, creating presentations (Powerpoint), sharing and collaborating on documents with my team (Office 365, OneDrive, Dropbox, Documents, or Files app), and financial reporting management (Excel). At home, I am a heavy user as well. I use my iPad for web browsing (Safari), movies (Plex, Tubi, Netflix), music (Apple Music), TV (Netflix, Playstation Vue), FaceTime with family and friends, photo management (Photos), server management (QNAP) for Plex and HomeBridge, fantasy football, reddit, Apple News, stuff like that. The iPad has been my favorite computer by far (10.5 and now 11).

Im not diminishing anything. Just because A does the job of B doesn’t make it one of them.
Some people find their car can be completely replaced by their bike, but they don’t try and suddenly say it is one.
It may be deemed a ‘computer’ some day but right now it’s a stretch and you know it.
That traditional sense has not yet changed. You and Tim Cook can think it has if you like, that’s your prerogative.
Nice deflection with the cooker thing BTW.

 

[Sabelonada]

I can't say, I don't know what a cooker is.
[doublepost=1544106539][/doublepost]

I 100% do, I even said so just a little bit down in the exact post you quoted - "I am not oblivious to the fact that laptops, desktops, and all traditional PC's are still completely viable and the best tool for the job for a lot of people and situations."
[doublepost=1544106681][/doublepost]

You can try to diminish what I need a computer for all you want. Here is an excerpt from when someone asked what I use my iPad for daily. If you don't feel that these tasks equate to what a "computer" is needed for, then so be it.

Nope, I sold my MacBook and went iOS/iPad only as my primary computer about 3 years ago. I am in an executive level position for a logistics brokerage. I use my iPad mainly for email, performance dashboard management (Safari/Excel), talent management (Safari), drafting proposals for clients (Word), FaceTime meetings with my virtual team, creating presentations (Powerpoint), sharing and collaborating on documents with my team (Office 365, OneDrive, Dropbox, Documents, or Files app), and financial reporting management (Excel). At home, I am a heavy user as well. I use my iPad for web browsing (Safari), movies (Plex, Tubi, Netflix), music (Apple Music), TV (Netflix, Playstation Vue), FaceTime with family and friends, photo management (Photos), server management (QNAP) for Plex and HomeBridge, fantasy football, reddit, Apple News, stuff like that. The iPad has been my favorite computer by far (10.5 and now 11).

Out of sincere curiosity, how was the transition to Office on the iPad? Losing the cursor and having to touch the screen for fine control is a significant change. The difference being moving my hand to my mouse, trackball, or trackpad or to the screen. The distance is quite smaller if the screen isn't the input device.

It seems that Apple (maybe just Steve Jobs) is/was convinced that is a bad process. Yet, in pushing the iPad as a laptop replacement, that's exactly the interaction required. I think this change is inevitable as all screens will eventually become touch enabled.

I found it quite amusing when I went to the Apple store with a Mac person. She was looking at the MacBook Pro and kept trying to interact with the screen. I watched and reminded her that doesn't work on a Mac. She has seen me use my Surface Pro with touch, keyboard, and pen so I am guessing she assumed that Apple would also offer that.

Given her experience and yours, I think Apple is wrong in saying that touch on MacBooks is bad. For an iMac, probably. Unless it offers a form factor similar to the Surface Studio. But with a laptop, my hands are often inches away from the screen anyhow. And for those growing up with tablets, that is the natural way to interact with a computer.

 

[DNichter]

Im not diminishing anything. Just because A does the job of B doesn’t make it one of them.
Some people find their car can be completely replaced by their bike, but they don’t try and suddenly say it is one.
It may be deemed a ‘computer’ some day but right now it’s a stretch and you know it.
That traditional sense has not yet changed. You and Tim Cook can think it has if you like, that’s your prerogative.
Nice deflection with the cooker thing BTW.

To say the iPad is not a computer is simply stupidity. It may not be the right computer for you or the task you need to accomplish, but it is absolutely a computer. I wasn't deflecting about the cooker thing, I just don't honestly know what a cooker is.
[doublepost=1544111975][/doublepost]

Out of sincere curiosity, how was the transition to Office on the iPad? Losing the cursor and having to touch the screen for fine control is a significant change. The difference being moving my hand to my mouse, trackball, or trackpad or to the screen. The distance is quite smaller if the screen isn't the input device.

It seems that Apple (maybe just Steve Jobs) is/was convinced that is a bad process. Yet, in pushing the iPad as a laptop replacement, that's exactly the interaction required. I think this change is inevitable as all screens will eventually become touch enabled.

I found it quite amusing when I went to the Apple store with a Mac person. She was looking at the MacBook Pro and kept trying to interact with the screen. I watched and reminded her that doesn't work on a Mac. She has seen me use my Surface Pro with touch, keyboard, and pen so I am guessing she assumed that Apple would also offer that.

Given her experience and yours, I think Apple is wrong in saying that touch on MacBooks is bad. For an iMac, probably. Unless it offers a form factor similar to the Surface Studio. But with a laptop, my hands are often inches away from the screen anyhow. And for those growing up with tablets, that is the natural way to interact with a computer.

It was an adjustment at first, for sure. I wouldn't recommend it for doing extensive Excel work or anything, as that can be tedious, but I haven't had any issues with Word or PowerPoint. For Excel stuff, I am usually reviewing reporting or making small edits. Keyboard shortcuts are a huge help, but I'll also just lay the iPad flat or slightly propped up when it is more comfortable/ideal. I honestly have no issue with a touch screen laptop, but I just think the OS has to be right. I don't personally think macOS would translate super well in a touch environment, it is better suited for iOS. I do think trackpad support will come to iOS at some point, but not system wide - more so in certain productivity apps.

 

[bondr006]

Im not diminishing anything. Just because A does the job of B doesn’t make it one of them.
Some people find their car can be completely replaced by their bike, but they don’t try and suddenly say it is one.
It may be deemed a ‘computer’ some day but right now it’s a stretch and you know it.
That traditional sense has not yet changed. You and Tim Cook can think it has if you like, that’s your prerogative.
Nice deflection with the cooker thing BTW.

Webster Dictionary:

computer
noun, often attributive

com·put·er | \kəm-ˈpyü-tər

\
Definition of computer
: one that computes specifically : a programmable usually electronic device that can store, retrieve, and process data.

Google Dictionary:

com·put·er
/kəmˈpyo͞odər/
noun
noun: computer; plural noun: computers
an electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program.

Techopedia:

Computer
Definition - What does Computer mean?
A computer is a machine or device that performs processes, calculations and operations based on instructions provided by a software or hardware program. It is designed to execute applications and provides a variety of solutions by combining integrated hardware and software components.

Dictionary.com:

computer
[kuh m-pyoo-ter]
See more synonyms for computer on Thesaurus.com
noun
a programmable electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Mainframes, desktop and laptop computers, tablets, and smartphones are some of the different types of computers.

Yourdictionary.com:

computer
a device used for computing and otherwise processing information; specif., an electronic machine which, by means of stored instructions and information, is used to perform rapid, often complex calculations, compile and correlate data, download and play audio and video communications, access the World Wide Web, send and receive e-mail, etc.; now, esp., digital computer


Now, you can deny that the iPad is a computer all you want. Just because you don't think it is, doesn't make it so. My iPhone is a computer as well. I keep commenting to my wife and son how neat it is to have a computer in my pocket. No, it's not a desktop or laptop, but it damn sure is a computer by any definition.

 

[ipponrg]

If there is an Apple ad that specifically mentions a competitors brand or product, let me know. I haven't seen one.

Edit: I see one above. I forgot that they mentioned Vista specifically by name back in the day. I am wrong about this.

Apple will not go after the Dells/HPs/etc. That's not what the original intent behind Apple computers. Apple went after PCs. PCs at the time were synonymous with DOS/Windows. You're really comparing operating systems here and not PC brands. I think you need to distinguish between the 2 when you're talking about competitors.

 

[DNichter]

Apple will not go after the Dells/HPs/etc. That's not what the original intent behind Apple computers. Apple went after PCs. PCs at the time were synonymous with DOS/Windows. You're really comparing operating systems here and not PC brands. I think you need to distinguish between the 2 when you're talking about competitors.

Yea, definitely a difference there. I didn't remember about the Vista commercials, pretty specific haha. I guess they were a pretty obvious target at the time. From Apple's perspective at the time, I guess I get it - little guy (Apple) going after the big guy (Microsoft). Interesting that it's now companies like Microsoft and Samsung making the same type of ads.

 

[ipponrg]

This dumb recurring argument would be like me saying those aren't real computers because they can't do some tasks as well as an iPad can. It's very short sighted.

I think there is a difference between "can't do as well vs can't do at all". Again going back to my example. The iPad is a subset of a desktop/laptop experience. I don't disagree that it's a computer for you. You just have to accept that some people will disagree with you when you say that it's a real computer (for all). I would imagine you'd get less pushback if you simply said it's a "real computer for me" and left it at that. And there would be no question if you're implying "for all" anywhere

 

[bondr006]

I think there is a difference between "can't do as well vs can't do at all". Again going back to my example. The iPad is a subset of a desktop/laptop experience. I don't disagree that it's a computer for you. You just have to accept that some people will disagree with you when you say that it's a real computer (for all). I would imagine you'd get less pushback if you simply said it's a "real computer for me" and left it at that. And there would be no question if you're implying "for all" anywhere

According to my research posted above, the iPad is a real computer by any definition. Just as my iPhone is a real computer. They may not be a desktop, laptop, or mainframe computers....but are truly real computers nonetheless.

 

[DNichter]

I think there is a difference between "can't do as well vs can't do at all". Again going back to my example. The iPad is a subset of a desktop/laptop experience. I don't disagree that it's a computer for you. You just have to accept that some people will disagree with you when you say that it's a real computer (for all). I would imagine you'd get less pushback if you simply said it's a "real computer for me" and left it at that. And there would be no question if you're implying "for all" anywhere

That's the thing. I have never once said it's an ideal computer for all. I have always said to use the best tool for the job. For some tasks and situations, that's an iPhone, sometimes it's an iPad, sometimes it's a MacBook Pro. All depends. I know that the iPad can't replace a computer for a lot of people right now. My only gripe is the people who simply won't accept that it's a computer at all, or those that try to diminish your individual use of an iPad as an example for why it shouldn't be considered a computer. Like somehow their coding or STEM work is more appropriate "work" than my use of an iPad to manage my team of 60 people. In the end, I say use what works best for the individual, and that obviously includes the iPad.

 

[ipponrg]

According to my research posted above, the iPad is a real computer by any definition. Just as my iPhone is a real computer. They may not be a desktop, laptop, or mainframe computers....but are truly real computers nonetheless.

If you read a few posts above that, you will see I agree with you that it's a computer. However, you need to understand the societal interpretation of what a computer is to them. Pulling the definition from a dictionary isn't going to help you understand why people say this.
[doublepost=1544116192][/doublepost]

I know that the iPad can't replace a computer for a lot of people right now. My only gripe is the people who simply won't accept that it's a computer at all, or those that try to diminish your individual use of an iPad as an example for why it shouldn't be considered a computer. Like somehow their coding or STEM work is more appropriate "work" than my use of an iPad to manage my team of 60 people.

I think you just have to ignore those posts and read in between the lines. Those people have tasks that require a desktop/laptop. Most of the apps/workflows on the iPad exist on the desktop/laptop with more functionality.

The reality is people generally don't do complex work on an iPad at the moment. Maybe it will change once Apple un-gimps iOS.

 

[DNichter]

If you read a few posts above that, you will see I agree with you that it's a computer. However, you need to understand the societal interpretation of what a computer is to them. Pulling the definition from a dictionary isn't going to help you understand why people say this.
[doublepost=1544116192][/doublepost]

I think you just have to ignore those posts and read in between the lines. Those people have tasks that require a desktop/laptop. Most of the apps/workflows on the iPad exist on the desktop/laptop with more functionality.

The reality is people generally don't do complex work on an iPad at the moment. Maybe it will change once Apple un-gimps iOS.

Yea, I mostly do. Depends on my mood I guess, occasionally it's fun. I don't mind a healthy debate, but I never understood taking a completely one sided mentality when it comes to this discussion. I guess it depends what you consider complex. My fiancee uses it for her graphic design business through Affinity apps, I'd consider that fairly complex. Operational, or repetitive mundane click heavy tasks, no - not ideal. I agree though, Apple needs to move the platform forward from a software perspective a lot faster than it is today. I think the push back of iOS 12 iPad features to iOS 13 and the release of the new Pro's without the OS they were made for is making this debate even more apparent today than ever before.

 

[bondr006]

Doing a little more reading, the term Hand Held Computer has been around for awhile. Back in the 80's and 90's there were the PDA's that ran on Windows CE and Palm OS. In the 2000's came the iPod Touch and Smart Phones, and then the iPad. These all fit into a class of computers known as Handheld Computers. Just to reiterate, Handheld Computers have been around for decades now. The ones from the 80's and 90's were more simple, but today's handhelds rival traditional computers in complexity, functionality, and speed.

 

[ldandp0]

The only people doing complex work on an ipad are those who would also sit on a strip of nails if it had an apple logo on it. It's just plain old self inflicted pain to do so.

 

[bondr006]

The only people doing complex work on an ipad are those who would also sit on a tack of nails if it had an apple logo on it. It's just plain old self inflicted pain to do so.

I would guess that would depend on the definition of complex work. Just like the definition of what a computer is. There are many shades my friend. And, when I said complexity, I was referring to the components and hardware, which are just as complex as any laptop or desktop.

 

[H2SO4]

Webster Dictionary:

computer
noun, often attributive

com·put·er | \kəm-ˈpyü-tər

\
Definition of computer
: one that computes specifically : a programmable usually electronic device that can store, retrieve, and process data.

Google Dictionary:

com·put·er
/kəmˈpyo͞odər/
noun
noun: computer; plural noun: computers
an electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program.

Techopedia:

Computer
Definition - What does Computer mean?
A computer is a machine or device that performs processes, calculations and operations based on instructions provided by a software or hardware program. It is designed to execute applications and provides a variety of solutions by combining integrated hardware and software components.

Dictionary.com:

computer
[kuh m-pyoo-ter]
See more synonyms for computer on Thesaurus.com
noun
a programmable electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Mainframes, desktop and laptop computers, tablets, and smartphones are some of the different types of computers.

Yourdictionary.com:

computer
a device used for computing and otherwise processing information; specif., an electronic machine which, by means of stored instructions and information, is used to perform rapid, often complex calculations, compile and correlate data, download and play audio and video communications, access the World Wide Web, send and receive e-mail, etc.; now, esp., digital computer


Now, you can deny that the iPad is a computer all you want. Just because you don't think it is, doesn't make it so. My iPhone is a computer as well. I keep commenting to my wife and son how neat it is to have a computer in my pocket. No, it's not a desktop or laptop, but it damn sure is a computer by any definition.

My microwave oven does what's described above, don't be so obviously obtuse.

 

[I7guy]

My microwave oven does what's described above, don't be so obviously obtuse.

Really obtuse? Your microwave accesses the World Wide Web, receives email and downloads pictures and plays video files?

 

[bondr006]

My microwave oven does what's described above, don't be so obviously obtuse.

Does your microwave edit pictures and videos? Does it surf the web? Can it create spreadsheets and documents? Can you watch a movie or chat with friends on it? Can you create playlists and listen to music on it? Can you print pictures and documents on your printer with it? Can you play games on your microwave? And the list goes on. Don’t be so obviously ignorant!

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Does your microwave edit pictures and videos? Does it surf the web? Can it create spreadsheets and documents? Can you watch a movie or chat with friends on it? Can you create playlists and listen to music on it? Can you print pictures and documents on your printer with it? Can you play games on your microwave? And the list goes on. Don’t be so ignorant!

Are the dictionary definitions you showed stressing anything about needing to watch movies or creating spreadsheets? According to the definitions you showed a microwave fits nicely. By the way the title of this thread is about a 'real computer'. That's a far more subjective discussion than just showing the dictionary definitions for a computer. Life is not only black and white.

 

[H2SO4]

Really obtuse? Your microwave accesses the World Wide Web, receives email and downloads pictures and plays video files?

My microwave computes. Period. That’s a fact. A computer with no NIC does not access the web but it’s still a computer.
Go into a Best Buy and ask for a computer, what I’m guessing >95% of the staff will not think you want us an iPad.
[doublepost=1544123186][/doublepost]

Really obtuse? Your microwave accesses the World Wide Web, receives email and downloads pictures and plays video files?

A computer computes. End of story. By that metric my microwave, wristwatch, clock radio etc are all computers.
But we both know they don’t fit the definition that the general public have.

 

[bondr006]

My microwave computes. Period. That’s a fact. A computer with no NIC does not access the web but it’s still a computer.
Go into a Best Buy and ask for a computer, what I’m guessing >95% of the staff will not think you want us an iPad.
[doublepost=1544123186][/doublepost]
A computer computes. End of story. By that metric my microwave, wristwatch, clock radio etc are all computers.
But we both know they don’t fit the definition that the general public have.

I'll bet that 100% of them won't lead you to a microwave, wristwatch, clock radio, etc. It is interesting though, that in the Best Buys here, they have the iPad and its accessories in the computer department. Also interesting that when you do a search for computer at bestbuy.com, that iPads and Samsung tablets come up in the results. Nothing about microwaves, wristwatchs', or clock radios though.

 

[I7guy]

My microwave computes. Period. That’s a fact. A computer with no NIC does not access the web but it’s still a computer.
Go into a Best Buy and ask for a computer, what I’m guessing >95% of the staff will not think you want us an iPad.

Moved the goalposts. Period. Your microwave does not do the functions of the post you quoted and attempted knock.

Go into Best Buy and ask for a computer and doubt you will get an iPad also, but probably won’t get a surface offered either.

A computer computes. End of story. By that metric my microwave, wristwatch, clock radio etc are all computers.
But we both know they don’t fit the definition that the general public have.

Microprocessor purpose built for special applications, like ecus, elevators and microwaves are not the same class of computer that one would use when writing a term paper. An iPad and surface pro are closer together than a microchip powering a dishwasher and a batttery operates candelabra on a timer.