Microsoft Shuffles Executives as Nokia Debuts New Windows Phone with 41MP Camera

[Toltepeceno]

I also tend to disagree like other commenter.
If you don't know, just look up Nokia 808 which was considered a good replacement for P&S(low to mid-end and few high-ends also).
Don't believe me blindly though. Just look up online.

OK, then that's you. A car could be replaced by a horse, but not a good replacement unless the car was a pos.

I also stated in a post I was looking at it from MY perspective. I have a dslr, but if I had a point and shoot as primary camera it would CERTAINLY not get beat out by ANY current phone camera.

 

[ibuyufo]

it's a great phones, really hard for me not to buy it, but the thing is windows needs to grow their app store, not enough apps is only issue i have with the windows phones.

If everyone thought like you that the app store needs to grow some more then no one would buy the windows phone. But if no one buys the windows phone then there isn't any incentive for developers to build apps for it. It's quite a vicious cycle.

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the extra megapixels are for oversampling and lossless digital zoom

meanwhile
- it also uses Zeiss optics
- the sensor size is 1/1.5", which is bigger than every smartphone cam sensor except the original Pureview 808. The iPhone 5's sensor size = 1/3.2", which isn't even half as big as the sensor on this phone
- it uses a xenon flash. Meaning you know how you take a picture on an iPhone with an LED flash in low light and you get a blurry mess if something's moving? That won't happen here.
- it has mechanical optical stabilization that's motorized and sitting on ball bearings

other than the 808 Pureview, this is the best smartphone cam currently on the market.

no kidding about the iphone taking a mess of a picture with the flash. My wife's iphone 4S is pretty much useless with the flash. The pictures comes out with a haze. Pretty much useless. The person who said the best camera you have is the one on you would cry when he/she sees the flash photos from my wife's 4S.

 

[thekev]

and dSLRs.

Heck, at 41MP, people will need TB's of storage on their phones if shooting RAW

This is just another mhz war. I'm not sure if you remember when consumer scanners would advertise 48 bit color due to the dropping cost of A/D circuitry. I wouldn't even want 41MP out of a phone currently. We can assume jpeg only, but it would still be out of line with current storage. This doesn't even tell you how they came up with the number. Sigma claimed similar MP with their foveon sensor. In some ways it did output more resolution, as RGBG designs tend to be somewhat deficient with reds and blues. It wasn't triple the resolution though as their "brilliant" marketing team claimed.

All that matters is that in the end whenever something integrated is good enough for the majority of people, they stop buying separate products. Phone cameras do not offer some of the control, but their quality has been increasing for years. They're popular, so companies have a way to fund the required R&D. All it really says is that Canon and Nikon need to hedge their bets on more than just image quality, and at some point both will likely require exit strategies for the consumer photography markets, regardless of what hardware is tied to them.

 

[ibuyufo]

I am really shocked that most of the commenters on this thread don't seem to know about 808 Pureview which already showed why Nokia used 41MP.
Also, even if no one knew about 808, there are numerous photos and hands-on images/videos already out on the web for this new Lumia that any one can look up before totally dissing the capability of this phone/camera.

I mean, yes I am an Apple fan but that doesn't mean I am blind to what everyone else is doing and will just close my eyes to any new tech since it is not by Apple.

This is really remarkable!!

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Really?

Hey don't question these people because they're experts! Being an expert doesn't mean they need to know that the Nokia 808 does exist and has a 41mpixel sensor. All they need to know is what apple has to offer.

 

[Renzatic]

This is just another mhz war. I'm not sure if you remember when consumer scanners would advertise 48 bit color due to the dropping cost of A/D circuitry. I wouldn't even want 41MP out of a phone currently. We can assume jpeg only, but it would still be out of line with current storage. This doesn't even tell you how they came up with the number. Sigma claimed similar MP with their foveon sensor. In some ways it did output more resolution, as RGBG designs tend to be somewhat deficient with reds and blues. It wasn't triple the resolution though as their "brilliant" marketing team claimed.

Comeon, Kev. Of all people here, I expect you to look at the info on something before commenting on it.

The 41 megapixel sensor doesn't produce 41 megapixel images. Rather, it uses the extra resolution to oversample what you're taking a shot of for more light data and information without producing as much noise, and produces a 7MP image.

 

[swifty168]

A lot of confusion in this thread. Eyebye and a few others have it right.
Forget the 41MP part. Yes it's exploited as a marketing feature but there are some real advantages to having the high sampling frequency.
Look at the total sensor size (and hence total sensel area for light collection) and the quality of the lens in front of it. Other than the Pureview 808, no other sensor size in smart phones approaches it as far as I know.
Those concerned with noise are only looking at per pixel values. A more valid comparison is resizing to the same viewing size, pick any size but unequal pixel count images need to be resized to the same for a like-for-like comparison. So you can either take the automatic resized 5MP images or resample the original 41MP to 8/10/12MP etc. yourself in post processing and compare it to camera x.

If Apple included a sensor approaching 1" (regardless of resolution) in their future iphone, that would put a very big grin on my face.

Btw, the Nokia method is completely different to Sigma's Fovean sensors which doesn't take 3 images and combine it to one. If Nokia did have a Fovean-like sensor it'd be even more impressive but it's still a conventional sensor with a colour filtration array but not your traditional Bayer configuration.

 

[D*I*S_Frontman]

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm doing any sort of professional photography I want control of iris, focal length of the lens (via switching primes or using a zoom lens), and exposure time/gain. Only when you control all three can you get precisely the level of depth of field that you need to compose the shot properly.

Shallow DOF and flattened perspective via longer lenses together make up the "look" of pro photography, because the only thing tiny sensor cameras can produce are "everything's in focus" snapshots. A pro photographer often wants to manipulate where the viewer's eye is directed, and shallow DOF is one of the most effective way to do that.

To do shallow DOF, you want the biggest sensor possible. That's why DSLRs will never, ever go away. This 41MP camera just takes slightly better snapshots. Heck, zooming in on this thing doesn't alter perspective and flatten the image the way optical zoom does--it just makes one area of the original image bigger. For a professional photographer or cinematographer, zoom completely alters depth perception and perspective. Like Speilberg's famous dolly/zoom shot from Jaws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB4bikrNzMk&feature=player_embedded

So as dazzling as 41MP sounds, it's really not a game-changer. Better snapshots. That's it.

 

[Rogifan]

Regarding this Microsoft reorg, can someone explain why Ballmer gave the hardware spot to someone with a software engineering degree and the operating systems spot to a guy that has a mechanical engineering background? Seems backwards to me.

 

[thekev]

Regarding this Microsoft reorg, can someone explain why Ballmer gave the hardware spot to someone with a software engineering degree and the operating systems spot to a guy that has a mechanical engineering background? Seems backwards to me.

In each case does their work history match their degree?

Comeon, Kev. Of all people here, I expect you to look at the info on something before commenting on it.

The 41 megapixel sensor doesn't produce 41 megapixel images. Rather, it uses the extra resolution to oversample what you're taking a shot of for more light data and information without producing as much noise, and produces a 7MP image.

Yes.... I was responding tangential to the comment. Sometimes I just enjoy doing that. I read the article itself. I'm not sure what they mean by oversampling though. I suspect it's written that way for marketing purposes, but if the resolution is really there, downsampling is one way to clear up noise, even if it's not perfect. Typical bayer array sensors use an rgbg pattern as I mentioned. In a square formation you would have 2 greens diagonal from each other with one red and one blue. Extra electronics required for signal processing would be located between pixels. If the pixels are responsive and it doesn't create issues with camera shake like what happened with some of the early 39 MP digital backs, it could be a nice step up. Things are always simplified for marketing though. If Nokia publishes a white paper description, that would be much more interesting.

Another interesting area where high resolution sensors have been employed has been in attempts at moire reduction without the use of low pass filters. I could go on again in regard to stochastic sampling and moire patterns, but I do too much nerd talk, and there are people who understand the underlying physics of those topics far better than myself.

 

[Renzatic]

Things are always simplified for marketing though. If Nokia publishes a white paper description, that would be much more interesting.

It's not a white paper, but Slashgear has a couple of quick, but informative articles about it. Apparently it's a pretty basic and straightforward idea when you get right down to it. Pureview is all about using a lot of resolution to produce accurate colors on a per pixel level at lower resolutions. And I guess because it's so accurate and has a tendency to separate and balance colors at such a low level, it gives you HDR like photos from a single shot rather than a composite. Hence why it's pretty decent for low light photography.

 

[thekev]

It's not a white paper, but Slashgear has a couple of quick, but informative articles about it. Apparently it's a pretty basic and straightforward idea when you get right down to it. Pureview is all about using a lot of resolution to produce accurate colors on a per pixel level at lower resolutions. And I guess because it's so accurate and has a tendency to separate and balance colors at such a low level, it gives you HDR like photos from a single shot rather than a composite. Hence why it's pretty decent for low light photography.

Well real noise has a somewhat stochastic pattern. It's not as uniform as what would be generated in photoshop, and one way of clearing noise both in photos and renders is to downsample. The white and black line grids are a typical way of demonstrating the problems inherent with sampling high contrast levels of very small objects. I hesitate to suggest really far away as atmospheric reflections would take care of that.

Also like I said earlier, if it's good enough it could threaten cheaper dslrs. Quality is the biggest sticking point for most people rather than control. Delivering cleaner data at the same resolution is great.

 

[CShort]

With a sensor that small, 41MP will produce extremely noisy photos. They have the logic wrong on this, unless we're talking about daylight shots.

The sensor is large, just thought I'd point that out incase you hadn't noticed the hump.
The 41MP Nokia 808 photos blows the iPhone 5 photos away by a long, long shot and this phone camera is the same idea but with some improvements.

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What bias? Bigger pixels mean more light; more pixels mean smaller pixels, sensor size being equal (which it necessarily is here). Adding that many pixels to a small-sensor camera is easy, but it's nonsensical if quality is your goal.

I guess someone has already pointed out that the sensor size is not equal. The hump is to make room for the larger sensor.

 

[Rogifan]

In each case does their work history match their degree?

Not sure, although I believe Julie Larson Green was heavily involved in creating the metro interface and was also responsible for the ribbon in Office.

 

[CShort]

The problem that I see with a 41mp sensor is - zooming to mere 2x would reduce sensor area in use by device to 25%, but still whole sensor will consume same power as 1x.
View attachment 422634

On the lighter side, just naming your wife as Princess Diana wont make you Prince Charles! xD

Funny enough, P&S level optical zooms reduce the apeture sharply as they zoom. The light you lose from the drop of apeture from the mechanical zoom is more than the light lost from less pixels.
Problem is Nokia's method doesn't allow for much more than a few times zoom - heaps more than zero but nothing like the 20x that you can get from similarly priced P&S. Since I don't carry a P&S with me everywhere though and I love to take photos Nokia's method is a very welcome bonus.

 

[hary536]

Well real noise has a somewhat stochastic pattern. It's not as uniform as what would be generated in photoshop, and one way of clearing noise both in photos and renders is to downsample. The white and black line grids are a typical way of demonstrating the problems inherent with sampling high contrast levels of very small objects. I hesitate to suggest really far away as atmospheric reflections would take care of that.

Also like I said earlier, if it's good enough it could threaten cheaper dslrs. Quality is the biggest sticking point for most people rather than control. Delivering cleaner data at the same resolution is great.

Here is the actual white paper from Nokia.
http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

and Here is the white paper for their 1st iteration on 808 Pureview.
http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/849564/data/2/-/Download1.pdf

Found in google search.

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OK, then that's you. A car could be replaced by a horse, but not a good replacement unless the car was a pos.

I also stated in a post I was looking at it from MY perspective. I have a dslr, but if I had a point and shoot as primary camera it would CERTAINLY not get beat out by ANY current phone camera.

Agree.
My analogy was that a GM/Ford sedan can be replaced by a Corolla or Civic. None of them are BMWs, Audis etc but still a good worthy replacement for the majority.

 

[yablochnik]

Look guys! Another kid who can't research before posting!

Have you ever done anything with image processing? Do you understand the oversampling algorithms they've included that make use of the 41MP?

Wow, talk about overreacting.
I understand what Nokia is trying to do here, and I admire their work in that direction.
My post was simply about the consumer view of the product. Was 808 a huge success? No. Today's phone cameras are already good enough, and I personally don't see 41MP as a huge advantage.

 

[gto55]

Quite impressive

Could Apple do better with the 5S ?

 

[nia820]

Windows OS is still uglyyyyyyy

Even though im an android and ios user. I get jealous of the windows design. It's very sexy.

 

[thekev]

Here is the actual white paper from Nokia.
http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

and Here is the white paper for their 1st iteration on 808 Pureview.
http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/849564/data/2/-/Download1.pdf

Found in google search.

Ahh you know I didn't even try to search that one, but I will read them. Thanks man. I suspected the last link referenced white papers not just because it mentioned that, but because the line patterns are a typical test for a lot of things for lenses, rendering engines, shader testing, cad, etc.

Not sure, although I believe Julie Larson Green was heavily involved in creating the metro interface and was also responsible for the ribbon in Office.

I don't know either, but I know there's definitely crossover between degrees and what people do for a living..... Ugh....

 

[Renzatic]

Wow, talk about overreacting.
I understand what Nokia is trying to do here, and I admire their work in that direction.
My post was simply about the consumer view of the product. Was 808 a huge success? No. Today's phone cameras are already good enough, and I personally don't see 41MP as a huge advantage.

There's no such thing in the world of technology where something is so good it can't be better.

The whole 41MP thing is actually an aside for me. It doesn't even output 41MP images. That's just a part of the process it uses to create better than usual (for a camera phone) images. The big deal is how well it performs in low light environments, both with and without the flash. Bag on its popularity all you want. That speaks nothing to the inherit quality of the phone or camera as a whole. There's no denying it can take beautiful pictures, day or night.

 

[yablochnik]

There's no such thing in the world of technology where something is so good it can't be better.

The whole 41MP thing is actually an aside for me. It doesn't even output 41MP images. That's just a part of the process it uses to create better than usual (for a camera phone) images. The big deal is how well it performs in low light environments, both with and without the flash. Bag on its popularity all you want. That speaks nothing to the inherit quality of the phone or camera as a whole. There's no denying it can take beautiful pictures, day or night.

Well, I won't argue with that, too. As I said, I admire the work Nokia does to implement such a technology into a smartphone, for a simple daily usage.

But I'm just an ordinary consumer, and from my point of view, I'd rather buy 920 with its 8.7MP.

Probably I read too much into what Nokia tries to say with the phone, but I, again, don't see this camera as a definite ”killer feature" or whatever.

 

[0dev]

At least that happens when I'm overclocking or using a broken GPU or using a corrupt hard drive and not when I go to Bing.com or play Chicken Invaders 2. And yes, those are the 3 reasons I've gotten KPs and the 2 reasons I've gotten BSoDs, respectively (both are rare).

Last two times I got a kernel panic it was completely random, I think because OS X didn't like my HDMI cable.

BTW Windows Phone 8 is a solid stable OS, it very rarely crashes. Same goes for modern Windows on computers. My MBP and my Windows 8 laptop are just as reliable as each other.

 

[mumph]

Windows OS is still uglyyyyyyy

It looks great. Its just implemented poorly.

 

[ToM7]

ugly

 

[Renzatic]

Well, I won't argue with that, too. As I said, I admire the work Nokia does to implement such a technology into a smartphone, for a simple daily usage.

But I'm just an ordinary consumer, and from my point of view, I'd rather buy 920 with its 8.7MP.

Probably I read too much into what Nokia tries to say with the phone, but I, again, don't see this camera as a definite ”killer feature" or whatever.

I like it simply because it might spur on other smartphone manufacturers to up their game here in response. I've had many a situation where I wanted to take a photo on my iPhone after dusk, and ended up being let down by the end results.

For me, a good quality camera isn't quite a killer feature, but it's pretty damn close. Like I'll always pick the phone/tablet/whatever that has the widest variety of quality apps and best developer support. But in a situation where all things are equal save for the camera, I'd probably pick the phone with the better one.

In other words, a great camera isn't 100% necessary, but it is a really, really nice thing to have.