Microsoft Shuffles Executives as Nokia Debuts New Windows Phone with 41MP Camera

[jimmydude911]

this is dumb. normal people just don't understand that more megapixels does not equal better pictures. just bigger bad ones

 

[eyebye]

Uhh, ideally? But I don't think that's always the case. Higher density doesn't always equal a better image. There's other factors that come into that, things that can affect the quality of the image being captured. There's certain advantages that might come from having the extra pixels, but that wont always equate to a better image.

My D700 is a lower pixel density than my D7000. I get better images out of My D700. I can stop it down further than I can with the D7000. It performs better in the mid-range ISO range.

I don't think you understand diffraction if you're sitting there telling me a higher density sensor would never perform worse than a lower density sensor. If we have two 32mp sensors, Crop and Full frame... that full frame sensor is going to perform better. I can stop the lens down further without losing sharpness.

In fact, this is why I prefer my D700 over the D7000. Stopped down so far, I get a sharper image. I can stop my D7000 down to about f/5.6 before it stars getting soft. My D700 can stop down to about f/11. The difference in resolution is negligible, the difference in sharpness is noticeable. If I'm shooting at night with a f/1.4 50mm lens @ 6400, neither is really better than the other. If I'm shooting portraits in a studio with lights and a lens stopped down to f16-f22, the differences become more apparent.

I brought up diffraction because it's a physical limitation that affects higher density sensors and it's one of the downsize of having such a high density sensor. I'd expect anyone that had experience coming up against that wall would have realized this. There are certain physical limitations that we have to work against, especially as we make things smaller and smaller.

If we're down sampling a 41mp image to 7mp image then sure, diffraction isn't such an issue. That's a bit of a straw man argument though. The loss of pixels negates the loss of quality that was caused by diffraction. If it's as some have suggested though, that when you zoom in, you're actually cropping down to a smaller part of that 41mp image, the quality of the photo is going to drop as the issues of diffraction become more apparent.

I indicated a higher density sensor would never be worse than a lower density sensor and that there will be scenarios where it wont be better, but most of the time it will. As for diffraction, at equivalent image size and downsampled resolution a higher-density sensor will have no more diffraction than a lower-density sensor. Diffraction is only more visible at the pixel level, but again pixel level metrics don't mean anything because images are rendered by groups of pixels (area) rather than individually.

 

[finalcut]

41MP camera in a such small sensor noiseless! I will believe it when I see pictures.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

41 megapixels in a sensor that small!? I'm expecting noise and poor low light performance. If they can pull it off without that then Nikon, Canon and all the rest may as well be out of business.
Better hope they give you tonnes of internal memory too - I'm not buying big expensive SD cards as well as a phone.

Nokia was the first company to put a camera into a cellphone - and Nikon recently made a statement alluding to a post-point and shoot world where their only camera products are SLR's. I wouldn't put it past Nokia to have some amazing tech that is worrying Nikon and Canon.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Well if it did have optical zoom, I'm pretty sure they would have flaunted it during the announcement.

yeah, I figured it out, the OIS is motorized and the entire lens assy moves up and down

 

[captain kaos]

If there was a better choice in the windows app store and an easy way for it to play nicely with a Mac and the Apple world id have a look at a Win phone.

Also, 41MP??! You dont get a better picture from throwing MP at it!

 

[aerok]

Also, 41MP??! You dont get a better picture from throwing MP at it!

Dude just read the numerous post preceding yours explaining how the 41 megapixels improves image quality, not just size.

Or even better, read about the new product.

 

[yablochnik]

41MP is great and all, but who would even need that, really?
And I personally just hate the way the camera sticks out of the phone, probably a bit better than in 808, but still not enough to fit the overall design, which is quite good.

 

[MuffCabbage]

41MP is great and all, but who would even need that, really?
And I personally just hate the way the camera sticks out of the phone, probably a bit better than in 808, but still not enough to fit the overall design, which is quite good.

Look guys! Another kid who can't research before posting!

Have you ever done anything with image processing? Do you understand the oversampling algorithms they've included that make use of the 41MP?

 

[Sincci]

If there was a better choice in the windows app store and an easy way for it to play nicely with a Mac and the Apple world id have a look at a Win phone.

Also, 41MP??! You dont get a better picture from throwing MP at it!

Haven't you guys actually read the thread at all? The huge amount of megapixels has been explained at least dozens of times in this thread alone (it's oversampling those megapixels into a 5mpix picture with a much less noise and more details when zooming), yet everyone keeps just joining the discussion with complaining how stupid it is to have such amount of megapixels. With only 9 pages long, it's not really too demanding to actually first read the whole thread before starting to shout nonsense that has been already discussed (and usually even on the latest page).

On the other hand, if this would have been Apple's product, people would have been high-fiving each other and praising Apple for such an unbelievable innovation

 

[Liquorpuki]

this is dumb. normal people just don't understand that more megapixels does not equal better pictures. just bigger bad ones

the extra megapixels are for oversampling and lossless digital zoom

meanwhile
- it also uses Zeiss optics
- the sensor size is 1/1.5", which is bigger than every smartphone cam sensor except the original Pureview 808. The iPhone 5's sensor size = 1/3.2", which isn't even half as big as the sensor on this phone
- it uses a xenon flash. Meaning you know how you take a picture on an iPhone with an LED flash in low light and you get a blurry mess if something's moving? That won't happen here.
- it has mechanical optical stabilization that's motorized and sitting on ball bearings

other than the 808 Pureview, this is the best smartphone cam currently on the market.

 

[bwillwall]

Holy crap it must take a gigabyte just to store a single photo

 

[Toltepeceno]

I have to disagree with you on this one. I see many people carrying $100 point and shoots with them all the time, taking over exposed pictures with their flash on all the the time. So carrying a phone like the Lumia 1020 instead of that crappy point and shoot won't make that much of a difference.

That's because you are talking about a "crappy" point and shoot, I am not. Why would anyone have a "crappy" point and shoot as a primary? You know for certain that 100.00 camera is their PRIMARY? I have a dslr, if I did not have it I would certainly have not a 100.00 primary. It would be something like this and no phone is ready to replace something like this:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417599,00.asp

A 100.00 primary would be someone that does not take it serious and doesn't care what their pictures look like. I probably should have stated I am talking about people that care about pictures.

 

[suprakc]

In order to manage capturing the supposedly-amazing photos, one would need much more emphasis on properly-balanced aperture and lens design. Look at a DSLR. Design is key, not numbers. This is all neat and all, but when the iPhone 5s is introduced, it will, IMO, have far better features and design behind its camera, and it won't be anywhere near 41 mp. Yet it will take phenomenal photos for the average user.

 

[falconeight]

Its by far the best phone ever released and it made a company that know how to design. WP8 is also a great os. Too bad it has no eco system.

 

[marconiusrex]

"We are rallying behind a single strategy as one company — not a collection of divisional strategies. Although we will deliver multiple devices and services to execute and monetize the strategy, the single core strategy will drive us to set shared goals for everything we do. We will see our product line holistically, not as a set of islands."

LOL! Or start trying to be Apple! Good luck with that!

 

[ijohn.8.80]

The best supporting evidence is that the highest density sensors available today also have class-leading or class-matching low-light performance

Then how does the Canon 6D have better lowlight performance than the Nikon D600? The Canon is 20MP and the Nikon is 24MP?

 

[hary536]

Do people on this forum not do any research? Really?

I am really shocked that most of the commenters on this thread don't seem to know about 808 Pureview which already showed why Nokia used 41MP.
Also, even if no one knew about 808, there are numerous photos and hands-on images/videos already out on the web for this new Lumia that any one can look up before totally dissing the capability of this phone/camera.

I mean, yes I am an Apple fan but that doesn't mean I am blind to what everyone else is doing and will just close my eyes to any new tech since it is not by Apple.

This is really remarkable!!

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In order to manage capturing the supposedly-amazing photos, one would need much more emphasis on properly-balanced aperture and lens design. Look at a DSLR. Design is key, not numbers. This is all neat and all, but when the iPhone 5s is introduced, it will, IMO, have far better features and design behind its camera, and it won't be anywhere near 41 mp. Yet it will take phenomenal photos for the average user.

Really?

 

[macs4nw]

Cameras such as these will be the death if point-and-shoot cameras.

and dSLRs.

Sales of P&Ss have been decimated by phone cameras, but DSLRs will be here for many years yet; those DSLRs, they are putting those full-frame sensors in, will be getting smaller though.

Heck, at 41MP, people will need TB's of storage on their phones if shooting RAW

One of the reasons, your first point won't materialize yet.

Windows Phone 8 UI is refreshing. It tried to be something entirely new and should be commended. I really wish Apple could speed up the miniaturization of camera parts so we could enjoy super high quality photos without sacrificing the industrial beauty of the iPhone.

This is funny, a camera phone with 41mb of poor quality. Until they put a Micro 4/3 mount on the phone for quality lens, they can throw 2000MB into the camera and you will still have poor pictures.

On what basis does MacRumors contend that Nokia's 41MP camera is "impressive"? Megapixels may provide a marketing advantage, but too many pixels relative to the size of the sensor will diminish photo quality in some of the most common situations.

41 megapixels in a sensor that small!? I'm expecting noise and poor low light performance. If they can pull it off without that then Nikon, Canon and all the rest may as well be out of business. Better hope they give you tonnes of internal memory too - I'm not buying big expensive SD cards as well as a phone.

Agreed! For all smartphone manufacturers, the size of the sensor is still the limiting factor, and these are phones, with a built-in camera, not cameras with a built-in phone, so if any compromises are to be made, you know where those compromises are going to be made.

 

[Rossatron]

A friend has one of the earlier phone (820 I think) and it is an impressive device. BUT the lack of apps still keep it from being a viable alternative to... Anything, really. They can put a billion pixel camera, but without more apps, it's just an expensive dumbphone

 

[Liquorpuki]

A friend has one of the earlier phone (820 I think) and it is an impressive device. BUT the lack of apps still keep it from being a viable alternative to... Anything, really. They can put a billion pixel camera, but without more apps, it's just an expensive dumbphone

Personally I see the app ecosystem becoming less and less of an issue. I've been waiting for the longest time for Yelp to get updated from a placeholder app to allowing check-ins and reviews. They did that today.

Stuff I was waiting for like Instagram and Spotify are now on there. I've been waiting for a Mint app for a long time and that's finally being developed.

Pretty much the only things that are not guaranteed to be on the OS are Google related, because Google and MS hate each other right now and are trying to screw each other over any which way they can.

Nokia is driving a lot of the ecosystem. At this point in time, I'd say even though WP8 is OEM licensed, Nokia OWNS the OS.... they're the only OEM that matters. Apps like Path, Flipboard and Hipstamatic are Nokia exclusives. A lot of the best games are Nokia exclusives too. Nokia is pushing the platform HARD, to the point it's no longer even worth it to get an HTC, or Samsung WP8 handset. You end up missing out on half the ecosystem, like I do with my 8X

 

[AnonMac50]

Sometimes I think one person mentions something as a fact and then everyone just takes that and makes it as if it were something that is definitely a fact.

 

[lk400]

A high pixel-density sensor will always resolve more detail than a lower pixel-density sensor. In good light that extra detail will be usable and even with higher per-pixel noise at the image level the higher pixel-density sensor will have more detail and less noise. In low light the extra pixels can be either binned or downsampled to again produce an image superior to a lower density sensor in both detail and noise.

Your assumption is that the glass in front of the sensor is capable of resolving infinite detail? If this sensor was capturing 40+ megapixel images (and I understand its not), then you would need some mighty fine lens to focus that much detail into such a small spot.

----------

That sounds really awesome actually! Why isn't this implemented in more cameras? Is it a new tech/concept?

I think pixel binning is fairly widespread - and I guess this is just an evolution of that.

In fact, as a Canon shooter, you probably read about the new 70D which has a 40mp sensor, but they are combined to give a 20mp image (allowing for pixel level phase detection across the sensor). I think this sensor is the result of years of R&D, and isnt just a double density sensor with some special software.

 

[Reason077]

How do they jump from 8.7 megapixels to 41?

Such dramatic leaps are indeed difficult to explain with terrestrial science alone.

Presumably,they are using technology harvested from crashed alien spacecraft - such as that recovered from the Roswell, NM since the 1947 crash incident.

 

[hary536]

For someone that uses a point and shoot as their primary camera it would not be a good replacement.

I also tend to disagree like other commenter.
If you don't know, just look up Nokia 808 which was considered a good replacement for P&S(low to mid-end and few high-ends also).
Don't believe me blindly though. Just look up online.