Microsoft Surface Beats iPad in Design, Productivity, and Accessory Use in New J.D. Power Study

[Abazigal]

One of the biggest turnoffs from using an iPad is how much time has to be invested into making a semi-decent workflow.

It's like a puzzle, trying to get all the right apps and make them play together.

"Oh, you want to view this file? You'll need a different app. Oh, you want to work on this file now? Yet another app please."

Being able to store files in folders isn't "legacy" at all.

I see it more as an investment. What you wish to get out of a device depends on how much effort you are willing to put in to make it work for you. It was the case when I switched from windows to a Mac, and it's no different now. The only difference is that with the Mac, my time was spent googling for a particular command or function, while on iOS, it's looking for a certain app which does the same thing.

There are quite a number of things I find myself reaching for my iPad over my Mac simply because it's more convenient and accessible. If Federico of Macstories can do it, so can I, and I did.

Likewise, for me, having used an iPad for work and entertainment for many years now, I find I have come to appreciate having my files silo'ed by app. For example, I open Scanbot and all my scanned documents are there. I open pages and all my documents are there. No need to open word, then navigate through a file hierarchy searching through folder after folder for that file I want. It just feels faster and more convenient for me.

 

[profets]

I see it more as an investment. What you wish to get out of a device depends on how much effort you are willing to put in to make it work for you. It was the case when I switched from windows to a Mac, and it's no different now. The only difference is that with the Mac, my time was spent googling for a particular command or function, while on iOS, it's looking for a certain app which does the same thing.

There are quite a number of things I find myself reaching for my iPad over my Mac simply because it's more convenient and accessible. If Federico of Macstories can do it, so can I, and I did.

Likewise, for me, having used an iPad for work and entertainment for many years now, I find I have come to appreciate having my files silo'ed by app. For example, I open Scanbot and all my scanned documents are there. I open pages and all my documents are there. No need to open word, then navigate through a file hierarchy searching through folder after folder for that file I want. It just feels faster and more convenient for me.

Funny you mention the parallel of the move to Mac from Windows. I've always thought that was a good example. Thinking back 10-15 years you would hear similar complaints or reasons as to why you still need Windows and how OS X at the time couldn't do everything that was needed.

 

[Abazigal]

Funny you mention the parallel of the move to Mac from Windows. I've always thought that was a good example. Thinking back 10-15 years you would hear similar complaints or reasons as to why you still need Windows and how OS X at the time couldn't do everything that was needed.

And they were not wrong. But the Mac did enough of what I wanted it to do (and did them well enough) that I didn't mind putting up with the shortcomings and limitations (lack of gaming support, for instance).

Same here. As a teacher, my workflow has changed again and the iPad simply allows me to do more of what I want, the way I want it done, compared to any other computing device available.

That's all there is to it in a nutshell - me choosing the right tool for the job.

 

[Luis Ortega]

Are you still stuck in 1990?

Lol...Aren't all fanboys?

 

[Radon87000]

No it can't. 10 hour battery life, make phone calls, use of specialty b/t pencil, 2.2 million apps to name a few.

You need an iPhone to make phone calls. Surface does have a stylus.
Surface has bazillion number of Win32apps. My tax returns software with a 1995 interface would run on Surface but won't on iPad

None of that makes a case for windows or an sp4 over an iPad

You get the same mobile apps and games you asked for. And it's still unnecessary because why should I run a crippled mobile app of MS office or Adobe when I can get the real thing. Why should I play games with IAP when the real Need for speed and real FIFA are available on Surface. Why should I be limited to the iTunes Store for Music?

I've cleaned up quite a few windows viral infections, so great for you you haven't been infected.

It's impossible to get an virus on Windows unless you visit a web site you shouldn't have. Some basic common sense is all that's needed. I don't visit sites I don't know. Before I connect a USB drive or a HDD I scan it for viruses . For those who can't control themselves I use Norton and the SONAR feature is extremely useful in it as it catches viruses based on behavioural detection rather than a signature based detection

Yes, the test where windows 10 churned.

Windows XP was installed on an iPhone 7 Plus and it was churning. Likewise you can't expect to install Windows 10 on a more than 10 year old PC and expect it to run. The fact that Windows 10 even turned on on an PC from the 2006 era is a testament to Microsoft's optimisation. If I tried running iOS 10 on an iPhone 1 ..... let's just say I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy . At least try to keep the examples relevant . A normal PC from 2009 which came with a 7200 HDD and a clean installation of Indows does not slow down

So now I need to get older hardware for good battery life on Microsofts product. Never an issue with iPads.

Same with Apple. When I bought a iPad Pro I wanted the 12.9 but because the 9.7 Pro was cheaper but had a better true tone display I got the cheaper model. It has better battery life and a better display than the 12.9 pro but lesser resolution and is weaker

It's more than consumption for 600. The iPad Pro is a beautiful device for artistic people as well as those who want a top notch artistic creation device.

If I pay more than 700 it better do more than sketches and web browsing. Or I might as well get a Surface which does this already

The new iPads will rue around the slump and sales will rocket skyward.

Sales have been continuously declining since Dec 2012. Good luck if this recycled tablet can help with sales

Not my article I'm just reporting the finding.

Make sure the article is relevant to the discussion before posting it. I could post Windows XP running worse than Windows 95 on 1995 clas hardwade

Still doesnt do as good a job as an iPad.

It does

Typical of Microsoft products, low cost, fast, good battery life. Pick two out of three.

Typical of Apple products. Want the best display on the iPad, the best battery life and low cost. Pick 1 out of three

The way you spend your money is not my concern.

Then why post what you could have spent when I never asked what you wanted to spend on

Only time will tell if they are successful, but I'm guesssing not.

unless Tim redesigns the software or comes out with a kickass design for the iPad the sales of the iPad will continue their decline

$329 price should jump start sales. Hopefully Timmy will figure out a way out of Jobs mess.

iPad Air 2 was selling for 299 at many stores. iPad Mini was the cheapest iPad and it didn't help any. Hopefully Tim realises how Jobs used to do things and regain the foothold on the iPad which Jobs had given him

Again that's the Microsoft choice, to get what you want you have to buy an inferior product by today's standards.

Same choice I faced when getting a new iPad.

 

[Tech198]

Well, the Surface has got a stand... (by default)..

I guess that will win some points .. not everyone will buy smart covers for iPad. or the smart keyboard.

 

[Kabeyun]

[a really long post with an impressively large number of quotes]

Wow. You may have just set a new record.

 

[maflynn]

Hopefully Tim will realise his mistake sooner rather than later. But somehow

Doubtful, one thing that seems to be getting more and more clearer, is that Cook does not have a vision of what Apple should be, nor does Apple have a grand strategy. You can see this when Apple announced they'll no longer make Apple branded displays only to reverse course and now say they will. Other examples of lack of vision are in the Mac sector, but I'll not bore you with those details as there are other threads for that topic.

The iPad failed because Jobs didnt see where the market was headed

Steve Jobs stepped down from his position in 2011, there's no way you can lay the failure of the iPad in 2017 at his feet. Even if he failed to properly set up the iPad for the future, Cook has had 6 years to rectify that, instead we got thinner and thinner iPads (except for the latest iteration).

Apple's knee jerk response of the iPad Pro was to copy Microsoft and its Surface Pro. We suddenly got a 12" iPad, with a keyboard with a stylus just like the Surface Pro.

Now the iPad pro is a fabulous ipad, don't get me wrong, but Apple should have rolled something like that years before hand, and even now the specs of the iPad pro should on all the models, its quite confusing to have a 9.7" iPad that cannot handle a stylus, but one that can.

 

[Ludatyk]

its quite confusing to have a 9.7" iPad that cannot handle a stylus, but one that can.

I don't think its confusing.

I think it's clear cut. If you want stylus support then get the Pro model, if you want to forgo stylus support and go the cheaper route with the $329 iPad.

I've read plenty of comments bashing the iPad and how it can't compete against the Microsoft Surface, which perhaps those users are correct. And I believe the Microsoft Surface is a outstanding device, but I've been a iPad user for awhile now.

I even had a chance to own a Microsoft Surface, but I prefer ecosystem that Apple has provided with my Mac & iPhone along with the iPad. Even the great developer support with tablet apps. I just think it's a better overall experience... just my opinion.

 

[6foot5foot]

Doubtful, one thing that seems to be getting more and more clearer, is that Cook does not have a vision of what Apple should be, nor does Apple have a grand strategy. You can see this when Apple announced they'll no longer make Apple branded displays only to reverse course and now say they will. Other examples of lack of vision are in the Mac sector, but I'll not bore you with those details as there are other threads for that topic.


Steve Jobs stepped down from his position in 2011, there's no way you can lay the failure of the iPad in 2017 at his feet. Even if he failed to properly set up the iPad for the future, Cook has had 6 years to rectify that, instead we got thinner and thinner iPads (except for the latest iteration).

Apple's knee jerk response of the iPad Pro was to copy Microsoft and its Surface Pro. We suddenly got a 12" iPad, with a keyboard with a stylus just like the Surface Pro.

Now the iPad pro is a fabulous ipad, don't get me wrong, but Apple should have rolled something like that years before hand, and even now the specs of the iPad pro should on all the models, its quite confusing to have a 9.7" iPad that cannot handle a stylus, but one that can.

I find it amusing (and naive) when people have this false view that Steve Jobs was a flawless visionary who had lightning bolt "Eureka!!" moments, year after year, without which Apple wouldn't have been a successful company again.

Yes, of course he was very strong willed and had a laser focus, but if you read
Leander Kahney's book about Jony Ive, I think you'll open your eyes a little - Mr Jobs was wrong on many an occasion, often almost to the point of screwing up a product completely due to personal obsession. Only with persuasive conversations with his colleagues, did said projects launch with the wisdom and prudence of seeing things OUTSIDE Jobs' personal, limited vision.

People hold him up as some flawless, genius idol, he was anything BUT that. He was key to Apple's growth and success due to his OVERALL desire to have things personable, emotional and relatable in how they're designed, marketed, sold, used and supported, but never be so foolish so as to think he was anything beyond a human being, as we all are. There are many, many unknown, untapped talents of equal or exponentially LARGER ability and vision than Steve Jobs, out in the world this very minute, but they either don't know how blessed they are, or are just not known of. Steve was one of a kind, but not THE ONLY one of a kind.

 

[I7guy]

Steve Jobs stepped down from his position in 2011, there's no way you can lay the failure of the iPad in 2017 at his feet. Even if he failed to properly set up the iPad for the future, Cook has had 6 years to rectify that, instead we got thinner and thinner iPads (except for the latest iteration).

Apple's knee jerk response of the iPad Pro was to copy Microsoft and its Surface Pro. We suddenly got a 12" iPad, with a keyboard with a stylus just like the Surface Pro.

Now the iPad pro is a fabulous ipad, don't get me wrong, but Apple should have rolled something like that years before hand, and even now the specs of the iPad pro should on all the models, its quite confusing to have a 9.7" iPad that cannot handle a stylus, but one that can.

The introduction of the ipad was both brilliant and flawed(in my opinion). It was brilliant because Apple produced a new form factor that gave developers additional screen real estate for cool things, whereby people who knew how to use an iphone could pick up an ipad with virtually no learning curve. In addition, the ipad would attract a new generation of Apple customers.

So-called convergence had been happening for a while. I remember using Windows based tablets prior to the introduction of even the iphone. The convergence is what Steve missed, imo. Now a few years later apple has a problem of declining sales(which Cook is being blamed for: sic) and does the market really want an ipad pro form factor running an apple operating system?

Apple certainly has the technical capability to run one of it's operating systems on an ipad pro specced device. But putting an intel processor in it, brings the headaches of battery life and cooling evident in the i7 version of the sp4. Running an operating system on an arm platform, imo, has it's own set of issues. And then there is the issue of the selling price and what should apple charge and where does a tablet running a full apple operating system fit into the lineup?

Due to apples secrecy we don't know what the future is, but this issue became compressed in time and magnified quickly and some see it as a Cook issue. While he now is CEO and has to fix what is broke, this issue started before he became CEO.
[doublepost=1491665265][/doublepost]

You need an iPhone to make phone calls. Surface does have a stylus.
Surface has bazillion number of Win32apps. My tax returns software with a 1995 interface would run on Surface but won't on iPad

No, my ipad on 10.3 signed into my appleid can make phone calls on LTE. Stylus on surface pro isn't as good as ipad prod. I own a sp4 and have compared them in the apple store. I can watch 10 hours of netflix on my ipad, not so much on my sp4.

You get the same mobile apps and games you asked for. And it's still unnecessary because why should I run a crippled mobile app of MS office or Adobe when I can get the real thing. Why should I play games with IAP when the real Need for speed and real FIFA are available on Surface. Why should I be limited to the iTunes Store for Music?

You can run anything you want, why would I want a sub-par tablet experience on my sp4, when I get an excellent tablet experience on my ipad.

It's impossible to get an virus on Windows unless you visit a web site you shouldn't have. Some basic common sense is all that's needed. I don't visit sites I don't know. Before I connect a USB drive or a HDD I scan it for viruses . For those who can't control themselves I use Norton and the SONAR feature is extremely useful in it as it catches viruses based on behavioural detection rather than a signature based detection

Really? The attack vectors on windows are massive more than just web.

Windows XP was installed on an iPhone 7 Plus and it was churning. Likewise you can't expect to install Windows 10 on a more than 10 year old PC and expect it to run. The fact that Windows 10 even turned on on an PC from the 2006 era is a testament to Microsoft's optimisation. If I tried running iOS 10 on an iPhone 1 ..... let's just say I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy . At least try to keep the examples relevant . A normal PC from 2009 which came with a 7200 HDD and a clean installation of Indows does not slow down

Really? Windows XP was installed on an iphone 7 plus? Stopped reading after that. However, pc worlds conclusion is their conclusion. Take it up with them.

Same with Apple. When I bought a iPad Pro I wanted the 12.9 but because the 9.7 Pro was cheaper but had a better true tone display I got the cheaper model. It has better battery life and a better display than the 12.9 pro but lesser resolution and is weaker

Wrong, apples website lists battery life at 10 hours. That is their standard.

If I pay more than 700 it better do more than sketches and web browsing. Or I might as well get a Surface which does this already

Everybody has their own use case, your use case does not carry forward into the next persons.

Sales have been continuously declining since Dec 2012. Good luck if this recycled tablet can help with sales

Yes due to Steve Jobs(imo) as I outlined above.

Make sure the article is relevant to the discussion before posting it. I could post Windows XP running worse than Windows 95 on 1995 clas hardwade

Your moving the goalposts here, there was no qualification on hardware initially, only software.

It does

IMO, it doesn't.

Typical of Apple products. Want the best display on the iPad, the best battery life and low cost. Pick 1 out of three

Not quite. My sp4 cost $1,500 and comes with severe limitations, heat and battery life, lack of ports to name a few. The ipad that costs $329 for 5 times less does not and should not have the hardware of a $1,500 device. You pay 5 times less and get a little less.

Then why post what you could have spent when I never asked what you wanted to spend on

Because you are vacillating between I'm dumping apple to I'm being the first on-line to get the next iphone.

unless Tim redesigns the software or comes out with a kickass design for the iPad the sales of the iPad will continue their decline

It's clear this is on Tim's plate to fix what was not broken by him.

iPad Air 2 was selling for 299 at many stores. iPad Mini was the cheapest iPad and it didn't help any. Hopefully Tim realises how Jobs used to do things and regain the foothold on the iPad which Jobs had given him

That was a sale price and not the apple msrp. iphone 7 was being given away for $0, is that the selling price?

Same choice I faced when getting a new iPad.

You are paying far less and getting more functionality as a percentage of price with the introduction of the new ipads. That's different than than telling someone they have to buy last years products to get good battery life. You don't have to make such compromises on apple hardware.

 

[Radon87000]

No, my ipad on 10.3 signed into my appleid can make phone calls on LTE. Stylus on surface pro isn't as good as ipad prod. I own a sp4 and have compared them in the apple store. I can watch 10 hours of netflix on my ipad, not so much on my sp4.

The stylus is not good FOR YOU. Don't state it as a fact. It does have a stylus

And if you wanted battery life you should have gotten a Surface 3.iOS is a toy compared to Windows. The fact that it lasts even 70% of how iOS does with the stuff it does in the background is incredible. Leave an app in the background on iOS for 8 hours and iOS terminates it. After I wake up that program is still in memory on Windows. iOS severely compromises many aspects to give that battery life

You can run anything you want, why would I want a sub-par tablet experience on my sp4, when I get an excellent tablet experience on my ipad.

Why should I pay laptop prices for an enormous iPhone?

Really? The attack vectors on windows are massive more than just web.

It doesn't happen if common sense is used. If your PC is being handled by novices it will get infected which is why anti viruses exists and if you managed to get infected even with an anti virus running you were going out looking for trouble and it found you. Most antiviruses have at least 80%+ detection according to lab tests anyway

Really? Windows XP was installed on an iphone 7 plus?

Yes.

https://www.idropnews.com/news/iphone-7-can-run-windows-xp/33955/

Runs like crap though

Stopped reading after that. However, pc worlds conclusion is their conclusion. Take it up with them.

Their conclusion is irrelevant to what I posted. I said all PCs from 2009 which came with bloat free Windows and used with care and common sense do not slow down. You brought up an article with a PC from 2006 and a netbook which is a deflection. There were huge advances in processing speeds and hard drives since 2006. The difference between an i7 920 from 2009 and an i7 2600k from 2015 aren't that huge. On the other hand the differences between a 2006 and a 2009 processor is monstrous.Then SSDs came into the picture etc

Wrong, apples website lists battery life at 10 hours. That is their standard.

Reviews stated the Pro 12.9 to have slightly less battery life and I went with a conservative estimate. Regardless my main purpose of not getting that one are costs and display which is inferior

Yes due to Steve Jobs(imo) as I outlined above.

Steve Jobs made the iPad the most popular tablet on the market and even while its cratering Surface cant hope to catch up with it simply because of the sheer lead it got when Jobs was heading it. Tim Cook has done absolutely nothing noteworthy with the iPad since he took over to the point that a 2013 tablet with an A9 has been rereleased in 2017,4 years later. All iPads in the current lineup have some sort of compromise. There is no proper flagship. The 12.9 lacks truetone. For that I have to get the 9.7 .If I want a higher resolution and an more powerful tablet its the 12.9. An optimum iPad would be a 12.9 inch with a True Tone display and the very best battery life out of them all but it doesn't exist.

Your moving the goalposts here, there was no qualification on hardware initially, only software.

Then why was that article with 2006 hardware brought into the discussion?

IMO, it doesn't.

Unless you explain how this is just boilerplate language

Not quite. My sp4 cost $1,500 and comes with severe limitations, heat and battery life, lack of ports to name a few. The ipad that costs $329 for 5 times less does not and should not have the hardware of a $1,500 device. You pay 5 times less and get a little less.

You get a hell of a lot less. Not as fast. A much more inferior display to even the Air 2. No Apple Pencil support. No 4gigs of RAM. No double speakers. Thicker chassis. More weight etc

Because you are vacillating between I'm dumping apple to I'm being the first on-line to get the next iphone.

I am only getting the new iPhone if Apple prices it reasonably and by reasonable I mean 128GB OLED iPhone at 1K. That's my limit. If that doesn't happen, I am jumping ship

It's clear this is on Tim's plate to fix what was not broken by him.

He is not being paid a 7 figure salary for nothing. Its been 6 years and we have only seen thinner iPads

That was a sale price and not the apple msrp.

You can call it whatever you want. In reality they were being purchased by customers at those prices and there wasn't much change in sales. If you ask me the bezel less 10.5inch OLED iPad will make an uptick in iPad sales

You are paying far less and getting more functionality as a percentage of price with the introduction of the new ipads. That's different than than telling someone they have to buy last years products to get good battery life. You don't have to make such compromises on apple hardware.

iPad Pro 12.9 is a product from 2015 and does not have true tone and is supposed to be Apple's flagship and yet its in many ways inferior to a much cheaper product. I am paying more for less. So effectively what I told you is the same choice I faced when I was deciding between the iPads

 

[Ludatyk]

Due to apples secrecy we don't know what the future is, but this issue became compressed in time and magnified quickly and some see it as a Cook issue. While he now is CEO and has to fix what is broke, this issue started before he became CEO.

I think the issue is simple... make a iPadOS and a iPhoneOS, break iOS into two parts.

iPads are still selling well, and to try to compare iPads to iPhones sale is just not fair. iPhones are their cash cow, I believe knows that iPads are the future it's just going to take awhile for iOS to mature into the OS we want in a full fledge operating system.

Breaking up iOS will help Apple focus more on the iPad.

 

[jujufreeze]

Call me old fashioned but I still use micro sd card slot and usb 3 ports. I like the freedom of having a file management system. That alone makes the surface pro more useful to me.

 

[I7guy]

The stylus is not good FOR YOU. Don't state it as a fact. It does have a stylus

It is a fact the stylus on the ipad pro is better than the sp4. Not that either is not competent, but the stylus on the ipad pro is outstanding while the stylus on the sp4 is just good.

And if you wanted battery life you should have gotten a Surface 3.iOS is a toy compared to Windows. The fact that it lasts even 70% of how iOS does with the stuff it does in the background is incredible. Leave an app in the background on iOS for 8 hours and iOS terminates it. After I wake up that program is still in memory on Windows. iOS severely compromises many aspects to give that battery life

So again we're back to the sp4 doesn't have it all and have to get generations old hardware to get decent battery life.

Why should I pay laptop prices for an enormous iPhone?

You should get what your needs dictate, but that doesn't mean others don't see the utility in the ipad.

It doesn't happen if common sense is used. If your PC is being handled by novices it will get infected which is why anti viruses exists and if you managed to get infected even with an anti virus running you were going out looking for trouble and it found you. Most antiviruses have at least 80%+ detection according to lab tests anyway

Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it sure happens to many people. Way to easy to get ring 0 level execution permissions in windows.

Yes.

https://www.idropnews.com/news/iphone-7-can-run-windows-xp/33955/

Runs like crap though

I forgot about that. It should run like "crap", given it's running on a virtual machine inside of IOS.

Their conclusion is irrelevant to what I posted. I said all PCs from 2009 which came with bloat free Windows and used with care and common sense do not slow down. You brought up an article with a PC from 2006 and a netbook which is a deflection. There were huge advances in processing speeds and hard drives since 2006. The difference between an i7 920 from 2009 and an i7 2600k from 2015 aren't that huge. On the other hand the differences between a 2006 and a 2009 processor is monstrous.Then SSDs came into the picture etc

Their conclusion, most certainly is relevant. You said windows 10 runs better than windows xp on old hardware. PC world disproved it.

Reviews stated the Pro 12.9 to have slightly less battery life and I went with a conservative estimate. Regardless my main purpose of not getting that one are costs and display which is inferior

I'm going by the apple website who published their official specs. It's not of interest what some reviewer posted as their anecdotal experience.

Steve Jobs made the iPad the most popular tablet on the market and even while its cratering Surface cant hope to catch up with it simply because of the sheer lead it got when Jobs was heading it. Tim Cook has done absolutely nothing noteworthy with the iPad since he took over to the point that a 2013 tablet with an A9 has been rereleased in 2017,4 years later. All iPads in the current lineup have some sort of compromise. There is no proper flagship. The 12.9 lacks truetone. For that I have to get the 9.7 .If I want a higher resolution and an more powerful tablet its the 12.9. An optimum iPad would be a 12.9 inch with a True Tone display and the very best battery life out of them all but it doesn't exist.

Yes, Tim Cook "has done nothing noteworthy" as he is cleaning up the ipad mess that was left him as I explained above. And as ipads have some sort of compromise, so does the surface 4, heat and battery life, bulk and lack of cellular chip to name a few. Going forward I expect all idevice flagships to have at least tru-tone.

Then why was that article with 2006 hardware brought into the discussion?

You brought it up.

Unless you explain how this is just boilerplate language

Boilerplate language?

You get a hell of a lot less. Not as fast. A much more inferior display to even the Air 2. No Apple Pencil support. No 4gigs of RAM. No double speakers. Thicker chassis. More weight etc

As said above, it was a sale price, same as iphone selling at $0 by some carriers. The ipad has the a9 processor that destroys the a8x.

I am only getting the new iPhone if Apple prices it reasonably and by reasonable I mean 128GB OLED iPhone at 1K. That's my limit. If that doesn't happen, I am jumping ship

Reasonable to one is not reasonable to another. We'll see what the price is, what the phone is called, what the features are in a few months.

He is not being paid a 7 figure salary for nothing. Its been 6 years and we have only seen thinner iPads

Then there is this and look carefully from 2011, the stock price, the company valuation. Some noteworthy sources have already said, he is earning his keep. Touch id, apple pay, air pods, apple watch, new idevices, laptops, 64 bit operating systems that sent the competition into a frenzy etc. Right "only have seen thinner ipads".

You can call it whatever you want. In reality they were being purchased by customers at those prices and there wasn't much change in sales. If you ask me the bezel less 10.5inch OLED iPad will make an uptick in iPad sales

It's called for what it is, a sale. The new ipad should improve the downmarket penetration and bring in new apple customers. I'm even getting one to replace my aging ipad 2 workhorse.

iPad Pro 12.9 is a product from 2015 and does not have true tone and is supposed to be Apple's flagship and yet its in many ways inferior to a much cheaper product. I am paying more for less. So effectively what I told you is the same choice I faced when I was deciding between the iPads

Not every device gets updated with every feature at the same time. Look at Microsoft, they did exactly that with the sp4, bulky, less battery life than it's predecessor, more heat and no cell chip. That's even more egregious than what you mentioned given at this time an almost two year old device.

 

[OneMike]

Not surprised. If you want to use desktop applications. Surface is the only option.

 

[willzyx]

Ballmer might have been a crazy CEO, but the guy pushed the Surface line and it really paid off for Microsoft. Everyone laughed it off, the guy insisted on selling it and it turned into one hell of a device. Owned a Surface Pro, was too small for me, so exchanged it for a Surface Book and it's the best damn laptop I ever used (that includes my Macbook Pro).

 

[Altis]

....snip....
Likewise, for me, having used an iPad for work and entertainment for many years now, I find I have come to appreciate having my files silo'ed by app. For example, I open Scanbot and all my scanned documents are there. I open pages and all my documents are there. No need to open word, then navigate through a file hierarchy searching through folder after folder for that file I want. It just feels faster and more convenient for me.

Have you ever seen anyone organize files on their computer in folders based on file type? I never have, once.

It's always files (of all types) that are relevant to that folder.

So I don't see why it's better to have all my files split across various apps. The app used to open isn't the important part of the data, it isn't the part that the relates the file content.

For example, if I have a folder for taxes, then subfolders by year, I want ALL of my tax-related files to be in that folder. Might be PDFs, images of receipts, text documents, etc... When I go into the folder, all the files are there.

Keep in mind that you often don't keep track of which files you have. What if I didn't know that I had a photo of a receipt because it was stored in another app that I hadn't checked (and then searched for within)?

 

[KuttyJoe]

The iPad is a much higher quality device and experience. The Windows tablet is about getting everything done, but the experience always, always leaves something to be desired. Crappy, inaccurate styluses. Poor battery life. Windows itself. I still prefer the idea of a tablet PC but no one has executed one well enough. I've had a few in the past. Some I had for a week before returning. The iPad Pro a one trick pony for me. Just art. Trying to do anything else on it is painful and aggravating. When someone makes a tablet PC that is not severely compromised, I'm sure I'll be back. I suspect though that if it ever happens, it'll be running Mac OS. Not Windows.

 

[oldhifi]

http://www.thescore.com/news/1117107

Yea it was a Microsoft tablet

 

[0lf]

It's impossible to get an virus on Windows unless you visit a web site you shouldn't have.

nonsense

Sales have been continuously declining since Dec 2012. Good luck if this recycled tablet can help with sales

https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/03/ipad-sales-ipad-mini-sales/
largely due to iPad mini sales declining. 9.7 and 12.9 are not that bad.

its quite confusing to have a 9.7" iPad that cannot handle a stylus, but one that can.

?
Apple product line is surely more complicated that when they were a very small company, but their product line remain quite simple.
What I find confusing is to sell without a mouse a computer that require a mouse to have a great user experience.

So again we're back to the sp4 doesn't have it all and have to get generations old hardware to get decent battery life.

Not only that. He says Surface 3, so ATOM based tablet (less performance than iPad air 2, even less single core perf than iPad air...)

 

[6foot5foot]

I was just about to watch a video on my parent's Windows 10 laptop, and I saw this fine example of what an UTTER mess Windows is, aesthetically...

The video thumbnail for the selected item is at the bottom, and yet the selected area, instead of being neatly trimmed CLOSE to the icon, is VAST... and there's all that empty, wasted space ABOVE the icon, just showing the blue selection highlighting - WTF? What a disastrous mess... and to think there are people out there who have started spouting this utter nonsense "Oooh, have you tried Windows 10? It's muuuuuch better, and is on par with macOS..."

No. No. Just stop, STOPPPPP! Just walk away, you've got NO idea, just give up.

Windows 10 is the same rattling bag of rusty, clanking old legacy code that they've had hanging over them for the last 20+ years, but just with some candy painted all over it... and not even NICE candy, just cheap crappy stuff.

 

[spinedoc77]

Jobs was 1000% right in releasing the ipad. He was smart enough to see that tablets of that time were clunky, had terrible battery life, were huge and weighed a lot, and windows was a terrible experience on them. Just as he was smart enough to realize that the experience on smartphones of that time was not optimal, leading to the iphones success. Where they've gone wrong IMO is keeping that same dumbed down experience even though others have released hardware that does it all, such as Microsoft has. So now I can virtually have the same battery life, weight, thinness of an ipad but with a FULL operating system? Yeah count me in, I ditched my ipad a LONG time ago and no one would ever get me to go back to such a primitive device. But Apple still counts on you buying 2 devices, that's how they make their money. I like when I can flip up the cover on my "desktop", pop it out of its dock and take it with me, letting me combine a laptop, desktop and tablet into one.

But I get it. If you invested in Apple's ecosystem you are stuck, err I mean comfortable with everything. Although it's ironic that Microsoft are the ones trying to break you out of the Apple ecosystem as many of its programs have decent ports, although they do remain primitive versus the full version. You also have no issue buying 2 devices, as most research shows ipad owners overwhelmingly have main computers they use such as laptops with full operating systems on them. No the ipad is not the future of PC's, that's just marketing. I understand many out there can utilize and thrive with the loss of functionality apps have versus full windows programs, but personally I could never get by with just an ipad. No, the hardware is just a poor argument for having an ipad IMO. The only real argument is having apps, and I can totally understand that if that's what you need, then an ipad is certainly a better choice for you. You really can't argue with what a person needs in their computing device. Although my challenge of coming up with a list of apps which don't have some equivalent on windows never really gets addressed other than a small list of somewhat niche apps. Quality may differ, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I've found the "simplicity" of apps often makes them more complicated to use.

It's not just apps/iOS either. The hardware is superb, easily on the level of Apple quality, if not surpassing it. Many of its hardware features are just things that all tablets should have as standard. The kickstand for one, I could never go back to not having one. The keyboard is amazing for how light and thin it is. The pen is great to have. Best of all I can use a mouse with it!!

 

[Radon87000]

nonsense

Not nonsense as I haven't caught a single virus in 10 years of using PCs and that's my strategy

https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/03/ipad-sales-ipad-mini-sales/
largely due to iPad mini sales declining. 9.7 and 12.9 are not that bad.

If the 12.9 and the 9.7 sales were increasing I am sure that's one point Cook would,love to point out to investors

Apple product line is surely more complicated that when they were a very small company, but their product line remain quite simple.
What I find confusing is to sell without a mouse a computer that require a mouse to have a great user experience.

There is nothing simple about this product line which asks me to choose between a tablet with the best display and the tablet with the best performance. Yes that is confusing for a typical customer

Not only that. He says Surface 3, so ATOM based tablet (less performance than iPad air 2, even less single core perf than iPad air...)

What's the use of all this power in my Air 2 if I can run only crippled mobile apps? The Surface 3 can run full fledged MS Office and Photoshop. The Air 2 can't. The Surfave can run desktop apps. The iPad can't

As I posted earlier an i7 6950 and a GTX 1080 are useless if all you can run is candy crush and movies

 

[Radon87000]

I was just about to watch a video on my parent's Windows 10 laptop, and I saw this fine example of what an UTTER mess Windows is, aesthetically...

The video thumbnail for the selected item is at the bottom, and yet the selected area, instead of being neatly trimmed CLOSE to the icon, is VAST... and there's all that empty, wasted space ABOVE the icon, just showing the blue selection highlighting - WTF? What a disastrous mess... and to think there are people out there who have started spouting this utter nonsense "Oooh, have you tried Windows 10? It's muuuuuch better, and is on par with macOS..."

No. No. Just stop, STOPPPPP! Just walk away, you've got NO idea, just give up.

Windows 10 is the same rattling bag of rusty, clanking old legacy code that they've had hanging over them for the last 20+ years, but just with some candy painted all over it... and not even NICE candy, just cheap crappy stuff.

The other day while I was using my MacBook the scrolling stuck and I had to force restart my Mac. Windows 10 is not bug free but no software in the world is. And judging by your screenshot so,e system file has been corrupted. Try running the SFC /scannow command. That's not a Windows 10 bug