Microsoft Surface Estimated to Have Sold Only 1.7 Million Units Since Launch

[spinedoc77]

That's the whole point. Windows is freaking complicated and not user friendly. If the sales reps need training (which you know they got) and the PC section is still a hot mess, that should tell you everything you need to know. Sales reps, consumers, friend and foe don't care about Windows anymore.

Just to show you an example of how half ass Microsoft does stuff, go to the Sports Metro tile and try to add a College Football or Basketball team to follow. Good luck.

We were at a Windows Store a few weeks back and went into Metro on a large touch screen monitor. Apparently MS thought is was much easier to close out the metro app my swiping from the very top and going to the bottom of the screen (which worked sometimes) versus hitting a close button.

Stop it. I'm really finding it difficult to believe that such EASY stuff is beyond your tech expertise, you are a well spoken seemingly intelligent individual. It's funny that you bring this up, because my 11 year old cousin was just playing around with the sports tile on my tablet a couple of weeks ago.

Firstly there is a search, it's a prominent bar with a magnifying glass always present on the upper right. I search for Giants and it comes up with a beautiful picture of Eli Manning and it has their major stats right there in big letters. If I scroll to the right it gives me all the top stories about them, scroll farther to the right and it gives me their schedule, showing me all their regular season games, who they are against, what the opposing teams record is, and which TV station is broadcasting the game. Scroll farther to the right and I get division standings, Team leaders and stats, team stats, even a freakin roster. The sports tile is pretty amazing and EASY to use.

As for what you specifically want, there is a HUGE tile that says "Favorite Teams", if y ou click the BIG plus sign you then enter the team name and hit ADD. You get a list of possible teams, so if I search for Michigan it will let me choose from a list of different Michigan teams and I can scroll thru it and pick the one I want, then it's added to the front page of my sports tile.

Seriously, is that hard? Honestly, really, is it?

----------

The problem is that for a windows tablet, both choices suck.

You have the ability to launch apps with a tile-like interface, but then you are still stuck with the app's default desktop-like UI. If I am using the tablet docked to a keyboard (like the surface), I wouldn't need launchpad. But if I use the tablet by itself, I am hobbled by being restricted to using my finger to interact with an interface that was designed for a keyboard and mouse environment.

The irony of having choice and options (up to 5 modes of input for a windows tablet) is that they actually end up getting in the way of one another, and they each suck so bad that I am forced to constantly switch amongst the five just to get anything done).

And then MS and all its OEM partners make the baffling decision of releasing their tablets in the 16:9 ratio, which sucks for any form of productivity (because you are typically left with 30 - 40% of the screen after factoring in the onscreen keyboard and ribbon bars).

These are things marketing and hollow boasts of being able to multitask or run Office won't tell you, that they suck so bad to use on a tablet that you likely won't end up wanting to use them anyways, even when the option presents itself.

Which Apps have a desktop like interface/UI? The apps I've used are customized for a touch "Metro" interface. I don't have to go to the desktop unless I need a legacy program, and even then it's not as hard as people make it out to be. But I won't begrudge the fact that the dual desktop/Metro nature of windows tablets is holding it back, that is completely true. It's a progression, an evolution, a necessary evil for MS to transition into since instead of making a toy OS they decided to put a full and real OS on a tablet.

It's just amazing to me that you think multitasking sucks so badly. I know you guys think I'm a fan boy, but I think I've been quite honest in what I feel are shortcomings in both windows tablets and Microsoft's strategy. But the things you guys come up with are just beyond my comprehension. Multitasking is sweet in Metro, resizable windows, side by side, swiping thru programs, etc.

Edit: I can only assume you are referring to Office 2013, which has been revamped specifically to be touch friendly. The menus, layout, and ribbon have been made very nice for finger/touch use. Seriously, give it a shot, Office 2013 is pretty nice to use. Other than that I'm baffled.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Stop it. I'm really finding it difficult to believe that such EASY stuff is beyond your tech expertise, you are a well spoken seemingly intelligent individual. It's funny that you bring this up, because my 11 year old cousin was just playing around with the sports tile on my tablet a couple of weeks ago.

Firstly there is a search, it's a prominent bar with a magnifying glass always present on the upper right. I search for Giants and it comes up with a beautiful picture of Eli Manning and it has their major stats right there in big letters. If I scroll to the right it gives me all the top stories about them, scroll farther to the right and it gives me their schedule, showing me all their regular season games, who they are against, what the opposing teams record is, and which TV station is broadcasting the game. Scroll farther to the right and I get division standings, Team leaders and stats, team stats, even a freakin roster. The sports tile is pretty amazing and EASY to use.

As for what you specifically want, there is a HUGE tile that says "Favorite Teams", if y ou click the BIG plus sign you then enter the team name and hit ADD. You get a list of possible teams, so if I search for Michigan it will let me choose from a list of different Michigan teams and I can scroll thru it and pick the one I want, then it's added to the front page of my sports tile.

Seriously, is that hard? Honestly, really, is it?

----------



Which Apps have a desktop like interface/UI? The apps I've used are customized for a touch "Metro" interface. I don't have to go to the desktop unless I need a legacy program, and even then it's not as hard as people make it out to be. But I won't begrudge the fact that the dual desktop/Metro nature of windows tablets is holding it back, that is completely true. It's a progression, an evolution, a necessary evil for MS to transition into since instead of making a toy OS they decided to put a full and real OS on a tablet.

It's just amazing to me that you think multitasking sucks so badly. I know you guys think I'm a fan boy, but I think I've been quite honest in what I feel are shortcomings in both windows tablets and Microsoft's strategy. But the things you guys come up with are just beyond my comprehension. Multitasking is sweet in Metro, resizable windows, side by side, swiping thru programs, etc.

Edit: I can only assume you are referring to Office 2013, which has been revamped specifically to be touch friendly. The menus, layout, and ribbon have been made very nice for finger/touch use. Seriously, give it a shot, Office 2013 is pretty nice to use. Other than that I'm baffled.

What's a toy OS?

 

[dec.]

What's a toy OS?

He might be referring to iOS with it's extremely limited functionality compared to Windows. But then really for us hardcore geeks Windows is just as limited, as long as we cannot edit the source code and modify the system as we wish . And besides that there are a lot of professional clients out there who are too stupid to realize that they are using toys - iPads - in their business environments, which therefore are ...doomed!!11!!!

(s/eriously, tired of idiots "complaining" (aka trolling) about Apple devices being "toys" when tons of real world cases prove different)

 

[stroked]

Not that I'm complaining. As long as Ballmer is CEO, that's one less competitor for Apple.

How is this a good thing?

 

[spinedoc77]

He might be referring to iOS with it's extremely limited functionality compared to Windows. But then really for us hardcore geeks Windows is just as limited, as long as we cannot edit the source code and modify the system as we wish . And besides that there are a lot of professional clients out there who are too stupid to realize that they are using toys - iPads - in their business environments, which therefore are ...doomed!!11!!!

(s/eriously, tired of idiots "complaining" (aka trolling) about Apple devices being "toys" when tons of real world cases prove different)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not an idiot or a troll. Once someone says "troll" I stop reading as that word is so overused and for most now just means "disagrees with my opinion".

But you bring up a great point, and I have changed the way I think and agree with you 100%, iOS is not a "toy" OS. Seriously, I think the next step is for iOS to completely replace Windows and osX on laptops and desktops all around the world, I mean what need is there for Windows and OSx anymore if we have iOS?

 

[whiteboytrash]

He might be referring to iOS with it's extremely limited functionality compared to Windows. But then really for us hardcore geeks Windows is just as limited, as long as we cannot edit the source code and modify the system as we wish . And besides that there are a lot of professional clients out there who are too stupid to realize that they are using toys - iPads - in their business environments, which therefore are ...doomed!!11!!!

(s/eriously, tired of idiots "complaining" (aka trolling) about Apple devices being "toys" when tons of real world cases prove different)

Agree on real world examples.

Good friend of mine owns a bike shop.

He sells Trek bikes and Trek gave him an iPad built into the stand which sits in front of the range of bikes. The customer walks into the shop and can configure the bike the way he wants it on the iPad. Chooses colour, groupset, gear ratios etc. the shop assistant is free to keep running the shop whilst the customer plays on the app until they comes up with what they want. When happy they can order the bike right there ans the assistant takes them through purchasing plans etc.

He said it works a treat as he used to waste so much time with tyre kickers who were never going to buy anything whilst good customers would walk out of the store because they couldn't be bothered waiting.

The app is basic. Just pointing and clicking but the customers gets to see the colour of the bike etc. on the screen.

I gave the example of the estate broker and the DJ. All real world examples of where iOS is actually much more efficient and powerful that anything before it, including fully blown Windows OS.

Too many in this forum think Excel is real world. I cannot remember a time in the last 2 years where I used excel. Well maybe I put a list of names into long list! Haha!

 

[spinedoc77]

Agree on real world examples.

Good friend of mine owns a bike shop.

He sells Trek bikes and Trek gave him an iPad built into the stand which sits in front of the range of bikes. The customer walks into the shop and can configure the bike the way he wants it on the iPad. Chooses colour, groupset, hear ratios etc. the shop assistant is free to keep running the shop whilst the customer plays on the app until they comes up with what they want. When happy they can order the bike right there ans the assistant takes them through purchasing plans etc.

He said it works a treat as he used to waste so much time with tyre kickers who were never going to buy anything whilst good customers would walk out of the store because they couldn't be bothered waiting.

The app is basic. Just pointing and clicking but the customers gets to see the colour of the bike etc. on the screen.

I gave the example of the estate broker and the DJ. All real world examples of where iOS is actually much more efficient and powerful that anything before it, including fully blown Windows OS.

Too many in this forum think Excel is real world. I cannot remember a time in the last 2 years where I used excel. Well maybe I put a list of names into long list! Haha!

It's a non example. Why can't this be accomplished in Metro? It's not a good example of why iOS is better, it may be a good example of iOS having more apps, but not that it's better in general or even that it's better suited to a tablet. iOS is not more efficient and powerful, it just has more apps and I've never argued that point. As for Excel, you are right, I think no one in the "real world" uses Excel anymore.

 

[whiteboytrash]

It's a non example. Why can't this be accomplished in Metro? It's not a good example of why iOS is better, it may be a good example of iOS having more apps, but not that it's better in general or even that it's better suited to a tablet.

Exactly my point. Tablet software without a full blown OS.

In Metro this would work fine.

But seeing iOS owns the market 300 million units to 1 million it makes sense to do it in iOS.

Why develop in an environment that will probably be redundant in 2 years and replaced with something else.

 

[spinedoc77]

Exactly my point. Tablet software without a full blown OS.

In Metro this would work fine.

But seeing iOS owns the market 300 million units to 1 million it makes sense to do it in iOS.

Why develop in an environment that will probably be redundant in 2 years and replaced with something else.

I understand what you are saying, and I've said it before I don't disagree that consumers in mass may not care about full blown windows on their tablets, although I have a feeling that a considerable amount do, but that's just my opinion. My main points were people saying windows tablets were hard to use and that they didn't function well, which is utter crap IMO.

But at the same time if MS used your strategy of Metro only they would fail because IMO they cannot out ipad the ipad, the real world example of this would be the terrible flop of RT.

It remains to be seen how many users value full Windows on their tablets, I certainly don't have that answer, and I don't think today's number are indicative of anything except Microsofts incompetence in transitioning into the mobile space. I know many users value full Windows on their desktops and laptops, but it remains to be seen how many of these also value this in their tablets.

 

[whiteboytrash]

I understand what you are saying, and I've said it before I don't disagree that consumers in mass may not care about full blown windows on their tablets, although I have a feeling that a considerable amount do, but that's just my opinion. My main points were people saying windows tablets were hard to use and that they didn't function well, which is utter crap IMO.

But at the same time if MS used your strategy of Metro only they would fail because IMO they cannot out ipad the ipad, the real world example of this would be the terrible flop of RT.

It remains to be seen how many users value full Windows on their tablets, I certainly don't have that answer, and I don't think today's number are indicative of anything except Microsofts incompetence in transitioning into the mobile space. I know many users value full Windows on their desktops and laptops, but it remains to be seen how many of these also value this in their tablets.

It's a good discussion.

What killed the original Mac when it debuted was not that it was inferrior to Windows. But it had no software to run on it other than MacPaint, MacWrite etc. Whereas at the time a DOS or a Windows machine had a plethora of software including shareware and freeware. Developers were crazy about developing for the IBM rather than the Mac.

And that's the point. The OS is of little relevance in real world context. The users wants the apps to make their life functional. If iPad is the gateway then all the more sales to Apple.

That's where I fail to see how a full blown OS on a tablet provides the user anything of real use. What software that a Windows desktop can run would you actually require on a tablet? I can't see that there would be anything.

I'm sure some would say Office. But it's not like you can't write in a other app and then import it into Word etc.

If you need a full blown OS then you need to be plugged into the wall and have a desk with a large monitor.

 

[dec.]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not an idiot or a troll. Once someone says "troll" I stop reading as that word is so overused and for most now just means "disagrees with my opinion".

You did not stop reading.

But you bring up a great point, and I have changed the way I think and agree with you 100%, iOS is not a "toy" OS. Seriously, I think the next step is for iOS to completely replace Windows and osX on laptops and desktops all around the world, I mean what need is there for Windows and OSx anymore if we have iOS?

Again, there are tons of cases that prove your statement "toy OS" wrong. Pretty easy to understand, you'd think.

 

[Black Magic]

Stop it. I'm really finding it difficult to believe that such EASY stuff is beyond your tech expertise, you are a well spoken seemingly intelligent individual. It's funny that you bring this up, because my 11 year old cousin was just playing around with the sports tile on my tablet a couple of weeks ago.

Firstly there is a search, it's a prominent bar with a magnifying glass always present on the upper right. I search for Giants and it comes up with a beautiful picture of Eli Manning and it has their major stats right there in big letters. If I scroll to the right it gives me all the top stories about them, scroll farther to the right and it gives me their schedule, showing me all their regular season games, who they are against, what the opposing teams record is, and which TV station is broadcasting the game. Scroll farther to the right and I get division standings, Team leaders and stats, team stats, even a freakin roster. The sports tile is pretty amazing and EASY to use.

As for what you specifically want, there is a HUGE tile that says "Favorite Teams", if y ou click the BIG plus sign you then enter the team name and hit ADD. You get a list of possible teams, so if I search for Michigan it will let me choose from a list of different Michigan teams and I can scroll thru it and pick the one I want, then it's added to the front page of my sports tile.

Seriously, is that hard? Honestly, really, is it?

I'm discussing Surface, Windows 8, and Windows RT in general mostly because the thread is about the Surface and those are the OSes that the product uses. You start adding in other tablets to support your discussion point which derails the convo and proves just how complicated Microsoft offerings are. Think about it. It's so complicated the thread participants lose focus!

One of your points you mentioned was how easy it was to find and change file associations in Metro. I disagree. Why does the user (particularly an average user like a soccer mom) have to go through the hassle in the first place? Microsoft doesn't care about user experience, they just jam everything in regardless of usefulness, efficiency, or experience just to say the feature is there.

I also see you try to decouple Metro from the desktop portion of the OS. You state that Metro UI doesn't have to worry about the registry and all the traditional issues of Windows which I again disagree with. Why? Because Metro sits on top of the desktop portion and you will go back and forth between the two or choose desktop only. If you choose desktop only like the geeks will do, then you are back to the traditional problems like Antivirus scans, BSODs, fragmentation, driver updates. Just because us geeks can navigate the OS fairly simple doesn't mean the average soccer mom can. It's too complexed. Think about Windows 7. A soccer mom goes into a store wanting to upgrade her PC to Windows 7. Well, there is HOME, HOME PREMIUM, STARTER, PRO and so on. More than likely she will need to consult a technical person just to make that choice!

Oh and how is it intuitive or efficient to require fully swiping from the very top of a 27in monitor to the very bottom to close out an app? If you go too fast, it won't work. It's honestly ridiculous the very little thought MS put into the user experience on the touch UI. It was rushed to market as a "me too" product. Nothing more.

In regards to adding favorite sports teams in the Sports tile, I am asking you to specifically go in there and add the Alabama Tide Football team as a favorite team to follow. I tried to add a college team I love back when I had Windows 8 installed on a spare system and it could not be done (at least through that portion). I'm not talking about Windows 8.1 either. Sure you can add PRO teams, but that was it at least at that time. Post a screenshot if you are successful.

Lastly, you always use intelligence as a discussion point as if anyone that doesn't understand Windows like you do or thinks iOS is powerful is not very intelligent. I'm not really feeling that. I think iOS is very powerful and in some ways rival desktop OSes. Again, a perfect example is checking your bank account on iPad versus Surface Pro. On the iPad more than likely you just click on the app and check out your goodies. Easy, efficient, powerful. On The Surface Pro, the app doesn't exist more than likely so let's hit the browser. Well, which browser? Metro Browser has a list of sites that work but let's skip that and go to the desktop browser to make sure it works. Browser is up but now we need to type in the URL. Oh wait, I may need to check the minimum requirements because the site may not work well if its not a specific browser and doesn't have the required plugins. Sigh. Complicated, inefficient, and a time suck. I can apply the same concept to controlling your DVR, your AC Unit, and so on.

Windows is just too complicated and inefficient. There is minimal desire by most consumers to emulate that traditional experience on mobile devices.

P.S. Using Surface in portrait mode is a non-starter seriously. The UI is clunky and text is cut off due to the resolution, form factor, or both.

 

[Renzatic]

I also see you try to decouple Metro from the desktop portion of the OS. You state that Metro UI doesn't have to worry about the registry and all the traditional issues of Windows which I again disagree with. Why? Because Metro sits on top of the desktop portion and you will go back and forth between the two or choose desktop only.

Nope. Someone could stay in Metro exclusively without ever once dipping into the desktop if they want. The only exception to this issue are RT users using Office, and that's just because MS was dumb and didn't make a Metro excusive version of the suite.

Also, the quote about Metro being complicated because of the registry is like saying iOS is too hard to use for the average soccer mom because it's built on Unix, and terminal is difficult for anyone but computer geeks. Seriously, there are literally ZERO reasons anyone has to mess with the registry. I haven't ever had a probelm with it, and it hasn't been a problem in general since the first version of Windows 95.

If you choose desktop only like the geeks will do, then you are back to the traditional problems like Antivirus scans, BSODs, fragmentation, driver updates. Just because us geeks can navigate the OS fairly simple doesn't mean the average soccer mom can. It's too complexed.

Win7 isn't much more complicated to use than OSX. Antivirus scans? In Win8, MSE is installed to the background, and doesn't require any user intervention to update or use. It's like the malware scanner in OSX (and yeah, it does have one). You never notice it until you need it.

BSOD's? Not a problem unless you're having hardware issues. Then it's not really the OS at fault.

Driver updates? You don't need to update your drivers unless you're a hardcore gamer. If the computer works out of the box, then you're good.

Fragmentation? Like that's ever been a huge problem. And even if it were, Windows 7 defrags the drive while the screen saver is on.

You're just picking issues and shooting them out to bloat your argument.

Think about Windows 7. A soccer mom goes into a store wanting to upgrade her PC to Windows 7. Well, there is HOME, HOME PREMIUM, STARTER, PRO and so on. More than likely she will need to consult a technical person just to make that choice!

Consumers buying a computer off the shelf have two options: Home Premium and Pro. If they need Pro, they'll know they need Pro, and buy Pro. If they don't, they'll just pick up a computer and be happy with it, never knowing or never needing any other version out there.

Anyway, I'd reply to the rest of your thread, but...well...it's all strawman arguments. Plus I'm not at the house at the moment, and I think I'm being rude typing on my iPad in front of everyone.

 

[Black Magic]

Nope. Someone could stay in Metro exclusively without ever once dipping into the desktop if they want. The only exception to this issue are RT users using Office, and that's just because MS was dumb and didn't make a Metro excusive version of the suite.

Also, the quote about Metro being complicated because of the registry is like saying iOS is too hard to use for the average soccer mom because it's built on Unix, and terminal is difficult for anyone but computer geeks. Seriously, there are literally ZERO reasons anyone has to mess with the registry. I haven't ever had a probelm with it, and it hasn't been a problem in general since the first version of Windows 95.



Win7 isn't much more complicated to use than OSX. Antivirus scans? In Win8, MSE is installed to the background, and doesn't require any user intervention to update or use. It's like the malware scanner in OSX (and yeah, it does have one). You never notice it until you need it.

BSOD's? Not a problem unless you're having hardware issues. Then it's not really the OS at fault.

Driver updates? You don't need to update your drivers unless you're a hardcore gamer. If the computer works out of the box, then you're good.

Fragmentation? Like that's ever been a huge problem. And even if it were, Windows 7 defrags the drive while the screen saver is on.

You're just picking issues and shooting them out to bloat your argument.



Consumers buying a computer off the shelf have two options: Home Premium and Pro. If they need Pro, they'll know they need Pro, and buy Pro. If they don't, they'll just pick up a computer and be happy with it, never knowing or never needing any other version out there.

Anyway, I'd reply to the rest of your thread, but...well...it's all strawman arguments. Plus I'm not at the house at the moment, and I think I'm being rude typing on my iPad in front of everyone.

You are just making my point. If you use Office and you like Metro, you will be bouncing back and forth regardless of RT and PRO which is the opposite of user friendly.

Not sure why you compare Win 7 to OSX because we are really talking about tablets. Having a tablet that uses a desktop OS means you have to worry about desktop problems. Not an issue with iOS. In fact, earlier in this thread someone stated they got a BSOD on their surface device. You can minimize it all you want but iOS is simply a powerful and efficient OS. Windows 8 and RT are powerful, complex and inefficient.

Oh and saying that a soccer mom would know the differences between HOME PREMIUM and PRO is wrong. Come on man, you stretching so hard for a valid argument that you killing yourself here throwing out crazy opinions.

 

[0098386]

The files folks move around aren't getting appreciably larger. Excel and Word files have a natural limit that was long since exceeded by the power of the computers. I work with PDFs that are large (30 MB sometimes) and opening and manipulating them can stall my computer a bit. But just a bit and this is something I might do a few times a day. So no big deal.

I work in the games industry and things are getting crazy. You've got the console folks that have backups of many many terrabytes, and countless iOS devs with tens of gigabytes of projects.

The more tablets pop up, the more people will create for those. There's always a nice amount of developers to number of systems available, I don't know how many but in console terms it seems to be 20 big studios (50-500 people in each) to 1 million users.

We're not going to grow into a world of 1 billion tablets and only have the same number of developers. As users grow, so will the people to create content for them. And interestingly (anecdotal as it is) my mother and sister started off with iPhones, moved onto some kind of Android tablet and now want a desktop computer (to process RAW, create video, websites etc). They're a nice entry drug!

 

[spinedoc77]

It's a good discussion.

What killed the original Mac when it debuted was not that it was inferrior to Windows. But it had no software to run on it other than MacPaint, MacWrite etc. Whereas at the time a DOS or a Windows machine had a plethora of software including shareware and freeware. Developers were crazy about developing for the IBM rather than the Mac.

And that's the point. The OS is of little relevance in real world context. The users wants the apps to make their life functional. If iPad is the gateway then all the more sales to Apple.

That's where I fail to see how a full blown OS on a tablet provides the user anything of real use. What software that a Windows desktop can run would you actually require on a tablet? I can't see that there would be anything.

I'm sure some would say Office. But it's not like you can't write in a other app and then import it into Word etc.

If you need a full blown OS then you need to be plugged into the wall and have a desk with a large monitor.

I use quite a few programs which are windows only, many of them are related to my work, sometimes healthcare moves very slowly. But at the same time I have the luxury of having a consumption tablet with Metro. I'm curious which apps iOS has that are either not on Metro, or available as a legacy program or web app which users find so crucial? I'm not saying there are none, I'm just curious.

The full blown OS is a plus to what is already a very nice mobile OS. Why wouldn't you want windows, the same windows you use on your desktop or laptop? This gives me the option of ditching my desktop and my laptop, which is pretty much what I have done. I can just plop it into a docking station at home and work and I have a full blown computer. As much as people can shoehorn full OS functions onto the ipad, (and believe me there is a very large industry built around that exact same shoehorning) it is still just shoehorning and as you said, when you need a full blown OS you turn to the desktop. Well I don't, I stay on my tablet. I can use my tablet for ALL of my computer needs. Obviously I don't need a specialized desktop for graphics or other powerful needs, but the days of a windows tablet taking that spot are NOT far away, in fact they may only be as far away as this holiday season when Haswell tablets begin to come out.

Really the only viable argument you have put forth is the app store, which I do agree is a very compelling argument. This is a consumers decision though, and for me the app store is incredibly repetitive where you may have hundreds of fart apps but they still all boil down to one core application counted as hundreds of apps. Microsoft is all in, they are heavily pushing their app store, they have exponentially added apps in the last year and their app store is exploding.

In the end I am only giving you MY reasons why I prefer a windows tablet, but I'm assuming as an intelligent person you already knew that. I will continue to say I don't know what consumers will do, that is always a mystery that can be difficult to predict. Who knows if Apple will be unpopular 3 years from now, or if they will lose their aura of mystique when they become the purveyor of cheap plastic iphones and an OS that is stagnant, or on the other hand consumers may love this and keep them at the top.

----------

You did not stop reading.



Again, there are tons of cases that prove your statement "toy OS" wrong. Pretty easy to understand, you'd think.

Wait, I was agreeing with you, iOS is NOT a toy OS. Like I said, when can we throw away all the Windows and OSx laptops and desktops in the world and replace them ALL with iOS?

 

[spinedoc77]

I'm discussing Surface, Windows 8, and Windows RT in general mostly because the thread is about the Surface and those are the OSes that the product uses. You start adding in other tablets to support your discussion point which derails the convo and proves just how complicated Microsoft offerings are. Think about it. It's so complicated the thread participants lose focus!

One of your points you mentioned was how easy it was to find and change file associations in Metro. I disagree. Why does the user (particularly an average user like a soccer mom) have to go through the hassle in the first place? Microsoft doesn't care about user experience, they just jam everything in regardless of usefulness, efficiency, or experience just to say the feature is there.

I also see you try to decouple Metro from the desktop portion of the OS. You state that Metro UI doesn't have to worry about the registry and all the traditional issues of Windows which I again disagree with. Why? Because Metro sits on top of the desktop portion and you will go back and forth between the two or choose desktop only. If you choose desktop only like the geeks will do, then you are back to the traditional problems like Antivirus scans, BSODs, fragmentation, driver updates. Just because us geeks can navigate the OS fairly simple doesn't mean the average soccer mom can. It's too complexed. Think about Windows 7. A soccer mom goes into a store wanting to upgrade her PC to Windows 7. Well, there is HOME, HOME PREMIUM, STARTER, PRO and so on. More than likely she will need to consult a technical person just to make that choice!

Oh and how is it intuitive or efficient to require fully swiping from the very top of a 27in monitor to the very bottom to close out an app? If you go too fast, it won't work. It's honestly ridiculous the very little thought MS put into the user experience on the touch UI. It was rushed to market as a "me too" product. Nothing more.

In regards to adding favorite sports teams in the Sports tile, I am asking you to specifically go in there and add the Alabama Tide Football team as a favorite team to follow. I tried to add a college team I love back when I had Windows 8 installed on a spare system and it could not be done (at least through that portion). I'm not talking about Windows 8.1 either. Sure you can add PRO teams, but that was it at least at that time. Post a screenshot if you are successful.

Lastly, you always use intelligence as a discussion point as if anyone that doesn't understand Windows like you do or thinks iOS is powerful is not very intelligent. I'm not really feeling that. I think iOS is very powerful and in some ways rival desktop OSes. Again, a perfect example is checking your bank account on iPad versus Surface Pro. On the iPad more than likely you just click on the app and check out your goodies. Easy, efficient, powerful. On The Surface Pro, the app doesn't exist more than likely so let's hit the browser. Well, which browser? Metro Browser has a list of sites that work but let's skip that and go to the desktop browser to make sure it works. Browser is up but now we need to type in the URL. Oh wait, I may need to check the minimum requirements because the site may not work well if its not a specific browser and doesn't have the required plugins. Sigh. Complicated, inefficient, and a time suck. I can apply the same concept to controlling your DVR, your AC Unit, and so on.

Windows is just too complicated and inefficient. There is minimal desire by most consumers to emulate that traditional experience on mobile devices.

P.S. Using Surface in portrait mode is a non-starter seriously. The UI is clunky and text is cut off due to the resolution, form factor, or both.

Meh, you keep harping on the file associations, I haven't had an issue with them. Which ones in particular? Mine seem pretty intuitive if I install a Metro app the file associations go there. So once you see how EASY it is to change file associations you have to invent some other perceived difficulty the consumer encounters to keep your argument afloat, but it's already sunk fast to the bottom of the ocean.

As for the registry, BSOD's, fragmentation, driver issues, etc THESE DO NOT MATTER, you never come across these. There are no BSOD's, there have not been any since windows xp at least. There is no fragmentation. Windows update takes care of drivers automatically with no input from the user, and being a closed system the drivers are easy to be self managed and are stable. I've used almost every single Atom tablet in production today, I've used the surface Pro, all of these exaggerated claims are EXACTLY that, exaggerated. I'm not sure why you stubbornly refuse to give a windows tablet some credit, it's kind of weird how strongly you crusade against them. As for Win7, hey I'll meet you 2 years ago in my time machine and then we can talk about that.

And I hate to keep bursting your bubble and proving you wrong for stuff that you claim with no experience of using it on a windows tablet. That bank app that doesn't exist on the windows tablet? Guess what, it does. I have my BofA app on Metro and it works quite well. I'm not sure if you make this stuff up hoping no one looks it up, or if you truly don't know. Portrait mode, no text is cut off, that's a load of BS, I can post screen shots if you want, just tell me what SPECIFIC program or app you had issues with.

Lastly, as for Alabama college football, enclosed screenshots of how freakin EASY it is to do this. Seriously.... My 11 year old cousin figured this out in 3 minutes.

 

[whiteboytrash]

I use quite a few programs which are windows only, many of them are related to my work, sometimes healthcare moves very slowly. But at the same time I have the luxury of having a consumption tablet with Metro. I'm curious which apps iOS has that are either not on Metro, or available as a legacy program or web app which users find so crucial? I'm not saying there are none, I'm just curious.

The full blown OS is a plus to what is already a very nice mobile OS. Why wouldn't you want windows, the same windows you use on your desktop or laptop? This gives me the option of ditching my desktop and my laptop, which is pretty much what I have done. I can just plop it into a docking station at home and work and I have a full blown computer. As much as people can shoehorn full OS functions onto the ipad, (and believe me there is a very large industry built around that exact same shoehorning) it is still just shoehorning and as you said, when you need a full blown OS you turn to the desktop. Well I don't, I stay on my tablet. I can use my tablet for ALL of my computer needs. Obviously I don't need a specialized desktop for graphics or other powerful needs, but the days of a windows tablet taking that spot are NOT far away, in fact they may only be as far away as this holiday season when Haswell tablets begin to come out.

Really the only viable argument you have put forth is the app store, which I do agree is a very compelling argument. This is a consumers decision though, and for me the app store is incredibly repetitive where you may have hundreds of fart apps but they still all boil down to one core application counted as hundreds of apps. Microsoft is all in, they are heavily pushing their app store, they have exponentially added apps in the last year and their app store is exploding.

In the end I am only giving you MY reasons why I prefer a windows tablet, but I'm assuming as an intelligent person you already knew that. I will continue to say I don't know what consumers will do, that is always a mystery that can be difficult to predict. Who knows if Apple will be unpopular 3 years from now, or if they will lose their aura of mystique when they become the purveyor of cheap plastic iphones and an OS that is stagnant, or on the other hand consumers may love this and keep them at the top.

----------



Wait, I was agreeing with you, iOS is NOT a toy OS. Like I said, when can we throw away all the Windows and OSx laptops and desktops in the world and replace them ALL with iOS?

Viable argument? This is not an argument. It's a discussion. A very good one.

It is clear that your needs of typing 70+ pages per day on a tablet is not standard. That's not why people buy tablets.

I'm not intelligent. A long way from it. But I know the difference between something that is useful and something that will be a headache.

iPad wins hands down in the headache free stakes. I don't think anyone is saying Metro is inferior spec for spec on iPad. But what's the point? People are not just investing in the device. It's the ecosystem and where is all their files today.

Like I said. I can't be bothered going to another brand. Too much hard work. iPad for me performs my job perfectly. I go see a client and I have their 500 page contract on my device. 5 years ago we'd sit in a meeting thumbing through pages looking for a legal term and find out one person has the previous iteration of the contract. Producivity for me is miles ahead.

Same examples I gave for the broker and the DJ. The bike shop owner. All different uses of the iPad but assists this jobs greatly without the need for a full desktop.

In addition all my music etc. is in iTunes so I'm not swapping devices for work and play.

Enough messing about. People just want get their jobs done.

 

[spinedoc77]

Viable argument? This is not an argument. It's a discussion. A very good one.

It is clear that your needs of typing 70+ pages per day on a tablet is not standard. That's not why people buy tablets.

I'm not intelligent. A long way from it. But I know the difference between something that is useful and something that will be a headache.

iPad wins hands down in the headache free stakes. I don't think anyone is saying Metro is inferior spec for spec on iPad. But what's the point? People are not just investing in the device. It's the ecosystem and where is all their files today.

Like I said. I can't be bothered going to another brand. Too much hard work. iPad for me performs my job perfectly. I go see a client and I have their 500 page contract on my device. 5 years ago we'd sit in a meeting thumbing through pages looking for a legal term and find out one person has the previous iteration of the contract. Producivity for me is miles ahead.

Same examples I gave for the broker and the DJ. The bike shop owner. All different uses of the iPad but assists this jobs greatly without the need for a full desktop.

In addition all my music etc. is in iTunes so I'm not swapping devices for work and play.

Enough messing about. People just want get their jobs done.

Absolutely, i won't argue that consumers entrenched in the apple ecosystem will easily be dislodged. I've tried to get off my iPhone for years, and i can't because I find it to be the most easily usable phone on the market. Yet I still think there is a subset of iPad consumers such as myself who feel as if they've been sacrificing by using iOS and have been waiting for what i will continue to call a real OS, it just has yet to be seen if those are significant numbers or not, i don't have a crystal ball. For me being able to ditch my laptop, desktop and iPad are significant.

Its a great discussion thanks for not letting it devolve. Both are great tablets IMO, but with different consumers and needs out there.

 

[Black Magic]

Meh, you keep harping on the file associations, I haven't had an issue with them. Which ones in particular? Mine seem pretty intuitive if I install a Metro app the file associations go there. So once you see how EASY it is to change file associations you have to invent some other perceived difficulty the consumer encounters to keep your argument afloat, but it's already sunk fast to the bottom of the ocean.

As for the registry, BSOD's, fragmentation, driver issues, etc THESE DO NOT MATTER, you never come across these. There are no BSOD's, there have not been any since windows xp at least. There is no fragmentation. Windows update takes care of drivers automatically with no input from the user, and being a closed system the drivers are easy to be self managed and are stable. I've used almost every single Atom tablet in production today, I've used the surface Pro, all of these exaggerated claims are EXACTLY that, exaggerated. I'm not sure why you stubbornly refuse to give a windows tablet some credit, it's kind of weird how strongly you crusade against them. As for Win7, hey I'll meet you 2 years ago in my time machine and then we can talk about that.

And I hate to keep bursting your bubble and proving you wrong for stuff that you claim with no experience of using it on a windows tablet. That bank app that doesn't exist on the windows tablet? Guess what, it does. I have my BofA app on Metro and it works quite well. I'm not sure if you make this stuff up hoping no one looks it up, or if you truly don't know. Portrait mode, no text is cut off, that's a load of BS, I can post screen shots if you want, just tell me what SPECIFIC program or app you had issues with.

Lastly, as for Alabama college football, enclosed screenshots of how freakin EASY it is to do this. Seriously.... My 11 year old cousin figured this out in 3 minutes.

You keep missing the point. If you want to just stay in desktop mode, you have to change file associations for things like photo viewer and such. Being that the OS doesn't know what it wants to be, this just adds to the confusion and complexity for the consumer.

Drivers and BSODs are still an issue with Microsoft's newest OSes and the Surface. Earlier in the same thread a user commented about getting a BSOD on his Surface because of a driver update. Why is this relevant? Because its TRULY not an issue on iPad. You keep making claims about issues not being issues anymore which is so far from the truth that the IT community as a whole rolled their eyes on your comments about BSODs being a thing of the past.

Sports Tile and Alabama Tide debacle. Looks like they fixed it. Good job posting screenshots. Hope that wasn't Windows 8.1 screenshots.


So you found one bank app that actually exists on the Microsoft store. That hardly debunks my point. Is there a UVerse App to record shows on DVR? Is there a USAA app? Are there apps to control your thermostat? More than likely, no. Even if those small few still exists, there are thousands of others that don't. My point stands.

Surface being in portrait mode is an awkward experience. No one disputes this but you.

 

[VoR]

Drivers and BSODs are still an issue with Microsoft's newest OSes and the Surface. Earlier in the same thread a user commented about getting a BSOD on his Surface because of a driver update. Why is this relevant? Because its TRULY not an issue on iPad. You keep making claims about issues not being issues anymore which is so far from the truth that the IT community as a whole rolled their eyes on your comments about BSODs being a thing of the past.

Don't need third party drivers on an ipad because you can't plug devices into it, that's a strange comment

 

[spinedoc77]

You keep missing the point. If you want to just stay in desktop mode, you have to change file associations for things like photo viewer and such. Being that the OS doesn't know what it wants to be, this just adds to the confusion and complexity for the consumer.

Drivers and BSODs are still an issue with Microsoft's newest OSes and the Surface. Earlier in the same thread a user commented about getting a BSOD on his Surface because of a driver update. Why is this relevant? Because its TRULY not an issue on iPad. You keep making claims about issues not being issues anymore which is so far from the truth that the IT community as a whole rolled their eyes on your comments about BSODs being a thing of the past.

Sports Tile and Alabama Tide debacle. Looks like they fixed it. Good job posting screenshots. Hope that wasn't Windows 8.1 screenshots.


So you found one bank app that actually exists on the Microsoft store. That hardly debunks my point. Is there a UVerse App to record shows on DVR? Is there a USAA app? Are there apps to control your thermostat? More than likely, no. Even if those small few still exists, there are thousands of others that don't. My point stands.

Surface being in portrait mode is an awkward experience. No one disputes this but you.

I'm not missing the point, you just keep artificially inflating how hard it is to change file association, it isn't, at least for someone like my 11 year old cousin and above. Seriously, its not difficult, and the hole in your argument is that iOS requires settings also, or does iOS 7 eliminate the settings page as well?

Sports app, yah i thought so. Same with bank app. As for apps in general excuse me for throwing out a big DUH but yes iOS has more apps, no one is arguing this and its not even a point of discussion. Windows apps will proliferate, they already have to a huge degree. Your only point is the obvious one that iOS app store is larger? I'm sure you were saying the same thing about android 3 years ago.

BSODs, etc, stop it, its just plain exaggerating. Pure and utter exaggerating just to prove your non point. I can sit here and say the same about programs force closing on my iPad when i run out of memory, or checkerboarding when browsing the web, or programs not opening at all at times with a new release, or any number of issues I've run into in using my iPad. I don't because I don't like to exaggerate like they happen every minute, because they don't, but they do happen fairly often.

As for portrait mode yeah I DISPUTE YOU, find me which program has text run off the screen, etc. When i get home I'll post some screen shots to show portrait mode isn't bad at all. I understand it isn't everyones cup of tea, but that doesn't mean its bad, simply that its not your choice.

 

[Renzatic]

It is clear that your needs of typing 70+ pages per day on a tablet is not standard. That's not why people buy tablets.

Like I said before, there are actually quiet a few authors out there who bought an iPad specifically to write on. It's not why everyone buys an iPad, but there are a dedicated number of people who do.

Really, you can't point to the lowest common denominator and say "these are the reasons why people buy tablets. They don't want a complicated machine. They want something to read email on". That's certainly one reason, sure. But it's not THE reason. With over 200 million iPads (on a guess) floating around in the wild as we speak, it's almost impossible to point to one feature and say it's the sole reason why people use them.

People like them because they're portable and easier to interact with, but that doesn't mean they're only ever meant to be simple email machines for grandma. They're ideal for writing, drawing pictures, painting portraits, editing photos, taking notes, reading books, playing games, looking at webpages...there are a thousand and one things they're great for. The more powerful they get, the better they'll become at doing more things. You can't just say "people don't buy tablets for that" because you can't point to any one person and say exactly why he bought one.

 

[Black Magic]

I'm not missing the point, you just keep artificially inflating how hard it is to change file association, it isn't, at least for someone like my 11 year old cousin and above. Seriously, its not difficult, and the hole in your argument is that iOS requires settings also, or does iOS 7 eliminate the settings page as well?

Sports app, yah i thought so. Same with bank app. As for apps in general excuse me for throwing out a big DUH but yes iOS has more apps, no one is arguing this and its not even a point of discussion. Windows apps will proliferate, they already have to a huge degree. Your only point is the obvious one that iOS app store is larger? I'm sure you were saying the same thing about android 3 years ago.

BSODs, etc, stop it, its just plain exaggerating. Pure and utter exaggerating just to prove your non point. I can sit here and say the same about programs force closing on my iPad when i run out of memory, or checkerboarding when browsing the web, or programs not opening at all at times with a new release, or any number of issues I've run into in using my iPad. I don't because I don't like to exaggerate like they happen every minute, because they don't, but they do happen fairly often.

As for portrait mode yeah I DISPUTE YOU, find me which program has text run off the screen, etc. When i get home I'll post some screen shots to show portrait mode isn't bad at all. I understand it isn't everyones cup of tea, but that doesn't mean its bad, simply that its not your choice.

Again you keep missing points and I hate having to break out one syllable words for you to understand. On the bank app, you picked one bank that has an app on MS store but most regional banks and credit unions aren't on there. Not really an issue on iOS. How is this relevant you ask? The apps add to the convenience and usefulness of a product.

In regards to an 11 year old knowing how to change file extensions, good for him. I still ask why does he have to do it in the first place and how exactly is that user friendly or beneficial for the average soccer mom?

Lastly, the Surface crashed on a Microsoft exec while he was demoing the Surface, but according to you these things just don't happen.

Linky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxfZ5ejxTzY

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEJTRJY8KEQ

Please note that there were no third party devices plugged in.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Like I said before, there are actually quiet a few authors out there who bought an iPad specifically to write on. It's not why everyone buys an iPad, but there are a dedicated number of people who do.

Really, you can't point to the lowest common denominator and say "these are the reasons why people buy tablets. They don't want a complicated machine. They want something to read email on". That's certainly one reason, sure. But it's not THE reason. With over 200 million iPads (on a guess) floating around in the wild as we speak, it's almost impossible to point to one feature and say it's the sole reason why people use them.

People like them because they're portable and easier to interact with, but that doesn't mean they're only ever meant to be simple email machines for grandma. They're ideal for writing, drawing pictures, painting portraits, editing photos, taking notes, reading books, playing games, looking at webpages...there are a thousand and one things they're great for. The more powerful they get, the better they'll become at doing more things. You can't just say "people don't buy tablets for that" because you can't point to any one person and say exactly why he bought one.

100% agree.

Also.

Always on, with no boot up time. Makes a big difference.

I think for those in the Apple sphere whom are at the cross roads of iPad and laptop can choose iPad/Air. So the decision is not difficult. It may fall either way but always falls the way of Apple.

If you're buying a Surface RT or PRO the decision is muddled. Truly muddled.