Microsoft's Prototype Multi-Touch Tablet/Booklet

[LagunaSol]

Xbox (successful)

Actually, the Xbox is an epic failure based on any rational business measurement - probably the worst failure Microsoft has had. The project has been bleeding red ink for years. Billions of dollars in the red. If/by the time they break even (and by "break even" I mean compensating for all the years of losses) it will be time to start the bleeding all over again with a new console. What kind of business model is this???

Snatching up development studios, paying big bucks for exclusives, Halo Mountain Dew (WTF???)...geez, they even funded an animated cartoon (Viva Piñata) just to try to make the console look more family-friendly. The desperation is palpable.

And that 40%+ failure rate doesn't exactly scream success either...

(My brother is on his third.)

 

[DMann]

MS:

Xbox (successful)
Zune (failure)
Zune HD (not sure yet - but it isn't looking too promising)
Windows Mobile devices (failing)
Pure and Turtle (WTF?)

You threw them a bone there, but deeming XBox successful, with its exorbitant losses in subsidies, is highly debatable. XBox has been a financial sinkhole of epic proportions, with more than twenty billion dollars “invested” over nearly a decade. No amount of recent trickling profit turnaround is gonna fill that hole. Shoveling billions to promote success, with a massively negative return, is hardly a noteworthy achievement.

 

[cumanzor]

Track records. MS really hasn't done anything compelling over thr last decade hardaware-wise (plus the software that runs on it.)

MS:

Xbox (successful) As some said, this is highly debatable, business wise. It is true the Xbox division is the biggest financial black hole of the company. But some people seem to be missing the fact that XBL is still the preferred online platform, and it has a gigantic fanbase. They are not to kill it overnight because there's still a big profit potential from this. Entertainment wise, MS still wins, although Sony is slowly coming back up.
Zune (failure) AFAIK Zunes are still being sold, so until they decide to kill production you have no authority at all saying it is a failure.
Zune HD (not sure yet - but it isn't looking too promising)
Windows Mobile devices (failing) You keep insisting on calling things you don't like failure. A huge number of WM6 phone users would disagree with you. I agree that plain vanilla WM sucks, but with the immense amount of third party software this little devices can be quite amazing. There is a reason why most HTC owners like them
Pure and Turtle (WTF?)

Apple:

iPod + itunes (unbeatable to this day)
iPod Classic (what started it all)
iPod Nano - video (already making waves)
iPod Touch (revolutionary)
iPod Shuffle (meh, it's fine for what it is)

Macs

Macbooks
Macbook Pros
iMacs
all running OS X
(leaders in customer satisfaction; dominate the Premium end of the market)
Macbook Air (not a sales leader, but imitated relentlessly)

iPhone + OS X (revolutionary, currently unsurpassed)

So what do you expect our reaction to be when we hear about MS' latest "attempt", bearing in mind that the current management in Redmond is essentially unchanged from years ago?

Revolutionary? Really? Technologically-wise they aren't such a big deal. Maybe they are the best selling devices but that doesn't make them revolutionary, unless of course, you are quoting your personal jesus Steve Jobs.

Also, OS X is nothing revolutionary, the same 25 year old ui paradigm is still used in all major Operating Systems, if you ask me, there is nothing revolutionary about OS X, Windows 7 or any Linux distro out there. If anything, the closest thing to "revolution" is compiz-fusion, not only because of the fancy ricer effects, but the productivity gain is amazing, specially considering that you have pretty much absolute control over it.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Actually, the Xbox is an epic failure based on any rational business measurement - probably the worst failure Microsoft has had. The project has been bleeding red ink for years. Billions of dollars in the red. If/by the time they break even (and by "break even" I mean compensating for all the years of losses) it will be time to start the bleeding all over again with a new console. What kind of business model is this???

Snatching up development studios, paying big bucks for exclusives, Halo Mountain Dew (WTF???)...geez, they even funded an animated cartoon (Viva Piñata) just to try to make the console look more family-friendly. The desperation is palpable.

And that 40%+ failure rate doesn't exactly scream success either...

(My brother is on his third.)

You threw them a bone there, but deeming XBox successful, with its exorbitant losses in subsidies, is highly debatable. XBox has been a financial sinkhole of epic proportions, with more than twenty billion dollars “invested” over nearly a decade. No amount of recent trickling profit turnaround is gonna fill that hole. Shoveling billions to promote success, with a massively negative return, is hardly a noteworthy achievement.

Something both of you miss on that agrument is MS said from the begining they did not exect to break even on the project for years. The first Gen Xbox goal was to get into the market and get itself establitised (successful there). 360 goal was to grown from there and again not intended to make profit. I believe last year it did turn a profit for the year.

MS always has said that Xbox project was a long long term investment and so far it has been meeting its goals for the company so it is a success.

In success is measured if said project meets it goals. Profit has not been on the goal list for the Xbox. The Xbox project has been meeting its goals so it is still a success rate.

Also the failure rate is not the 40% everyone seems to pull out of there ass. The most realist numbers I seen is around 15-20% failure rate which is still high but not as bad as everyone makes it out to be and that high failure rate was from the earily makes of it.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

Probably.

This is because when apple release a product - its usually been designed to make it easy to use.

Its a matter of trust, faith if you will, that there is substance to match the style and the usability issues have been thought through.

We wouldn't have been cheering Vista just because someone stuck an apple on it.
The badge is the last thing to be added, and it has to be earned.

Leopard wasn't all it was cracked up to be and in the IT world, thus far Snow Leopard hasn't been fun either.

... and who are these moron claiming the XBOX 360 is an epic failure. Get out of here. Its one of the best consoles on the market. The money MS put into XBOX and the Marketplace as a whole is a long term investment, and quite frankly an investment they can afford.

 

[cumanzor]

Also the failure rate is not the 40% everyone seems to pull out of there ass. The most realist numbers I seen is around 15-20% failure rate which is still high but not as bad as everyone makes it out to be and that high failure rate was from the earily makes of it.

Wasn't there some official statement from MS saying it was around 50%

just asking, would be nice to finally see some official numbers. In either case, just so you guys know how successful the Xbox brand is despite the 360 being the most unreliable console of all 3: people still buy 2 or 3 Xbox consoles to replace a failed one. Talk about brand loyalty there, eh.

 

[DMann]

Something both of you miss on that agrument is MS said from the begining they did not exect to break even on the project for years. The first Gen Xbox goal was to get into the market and get itself establitised (successful there). 360 goal was to grown from there and again not intended to make profit. I believe last year it did turn a profit for the year.

MS always has said that Xbox project was a long long term investment and so far it has been meeting its goals for the company so it is a success.

In success is measured if said project meets it goals. Profit has not been on the goal list for the Xbox. The Xbox project has been meeting its goals so it is still a success rate.

Also the failure rate is not the 40% everyone seems to pull out of there ass. The most realist numbers I seen is around 15-20% failure rate which is still high but not as bad as everyone makes it out to be and that high failure rate was from the earily makes of it.

In other words, if a company sets their goals to underachieve, regardless of the financial hit, they'll their goals will safely be met.

 

[cumanzor]

In other words, if a company sets their goals to underachieve, regardless of the financial hit, they'll their goals will safely be met.

Did you even read? It is a long term investment, one MS can afford. This will turn out being probably one of the most profitable divisions over time (like the iPod is to Apple), you can be sure of that.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Wasn't there some official statement from MS saying it was around 50%

just asking, would be nice to finally see some official numbers. In either case, just so you guys know how successful the Xbox brand is despite the 360 being the most unreliable console of all 3: people still buy 2 or 3 Xbox consoles to replace a failed one. Talk about brand loyalty there, eh.

Everything I have read is Microsoft never release any numbers on how many were sent back in. The reports stated Microsoft was being very tight lipped on it.

The 50% was made up numbers and pure guessing.

In other words, if a company sets their goals to underachieve, regardless of the financial hit, they'll their goals will safely be met.

Please read again. I pointed out that it was a long term project. I even laid out how it worked out.

1st gen pure lost. It was upfront cost to get into the market.
2nd Gen - Still eating some of the upfront cost but it was goal was stop bleeding money. Which yes the 360 has met. They started breaking even in a given year.
3rd Gen - they start digging out of the hole and turning a profit.

Long term investment. Microsoft made it crystal clear when they released the first Xbox that the game consol was a very long term investment. It was never intended to turn money for first 10 years or so. They knew going in that it would 20+years before they really started pulling in the cash.

Microsoft has deep pockets and can afford to make an investment like that. They see a lot of promise in it and I expect it in the long term really make money.

Did you even read? It is a long term investment, one MS can afford. This will turn out being probably one of the most profitable divisions over time (like the iPod is to Apple), you can be sure of that.

Clearly he didnt. He went with the Microsoft Bash approuch and fails to see the very clear laid out logic....

 

[DMann]

Did you even read? It is a long term investment, one MS can afford. This will turn out being probably one of the most profitable divisions over time (like the iPod is to Apple), you can be sure of that.

Did you even read? Balancing a $20 Billion deficit will not even be approachable during our lifetimes, or beyond, by the slim profitability of their gaming console. The subsidies involved, in addition to the anticipated failure rates, and negative publicity, make long term profitability seem even further out of reach.

Clearly he didnt. He went with the Microsoft Bash approuch and fails to see the very clear laid out logic....

Long term indeed. Clear, laid out logic? We've been through eight years of that, thank you.

 

[BongoBanger]

Did you even read? Balancing a $20 Billion deficit will not even be approachable during our lifetimes, or beyond, by the slim profitability of their gaming console.

Can you give us the exact cost of development of the Xbox line, taking into account warranty repairs, and project these against the revenue streams from hardware, software and services sales over the next ten years?

I'm assuming you have these figures since you appear to have arrived at an evaluation of the line's future.

The subsidies involved, in addition to the anticipated failure rates, and negative publicity, make long term profitability seem even further out of reach.

Can you please show the sales curve for the Xbox 360 since its release, demonstrating where the failure rates and negative publicity have had an impact. Clearly one would expect a negative trend in any sales graph as a result.

Long term indeed. Clear, laid out logic? We've been through eight years of that, thank you.

So do you have the figures or not?

 

[DMann]

Can you please show the sales curve for the Xbox 360 since its release, demonstrating where the failure rates and negative publicity have had an impact. Clearly one would expect a negative trend in any sales graph as a result.

Yes, one would:

"Revenues in the quarter were down 29 percent to $3.1 billion, and it made $1 billion less in operating profit. The Entertainment business (Xbox) saw quarterly revenues decline 25 percent, but managed to reduce operating loses to only $130 million. 1.2 million Xboxes were sold in the quarter, and each Xbox owner has now bought an average of 8.6 games. At least servers and Tools under Bob Muglia seems to be holding up. Its revenues of $3.5 billion were only down by $200 million and its operating profit of $1.3 billion was essentially flat."

 

[LagunaSol]

360 goal was to grown from there and again not intended to make profit. I believe last year it did turn a profit for the year.

Uh huh. "Our goal is to lose money for many years." Riiight.

MS always has said that Xbox project was a long long term investment and so far it has been meeting its goals for the company so it is a success.

Please stop. I'm getting dizzy from the spin.

I didn't realize so many Microsoft PR people lurked on MacRumors.

 

[CQd44]

Weren't PS3s initially being sold at a loss too?

As I recall, only the Wii was initially sold at a profit.

 

[LagunaSol]

Did you even read? It is a long term investment, one MS can afford. This will turn out being probably one of the most profitable divisions over time (like the iPod is to Apple), you can be sure of that.

^ Another MS spindoctor.

I wouldn't be so "sure" about long-term Xbox and Zune profitability if I were you.

My bet is iPod will continue to kick Zune's trash as far as the eye can see, and Xbox is going to have a hard time against a $299 PS3 with Blu Ray, built-in wireless and free online gaming.

 

[AidenShaw]

Please stop. I'm getting dizzy from the spin.

I didn't realize so many Microsoft PR people lurked on MacRumors.

And I'm getting dizzy from the people who believe that Microsoft must be paying people to counter the misinformation being posted on MacRumours.

Dream on - as if Redmond would even care about trying to clean up this cesspool of Apple fandom....

 

[DMann]

And I'm getting dizzy from the people who believe that Microsoft must be paying people to counter the misinformation being posted on MacRumours.

Dream on - as if Redmond would even care about trying to clean up this cesspool of Apple fandom....

How foolish of you to assume, just because they're not compensating you.

 

[NT1440]

Uh huh. "Our goal is to lose money for many years." Riiight.

Actually, alot of console makers do that, because they make up for the loss through game sales.....

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but its pretty standard to operate at a loss the first couple of years.

 

[LagunaSol]

Weren't PS3s initially being sold at a loss too?

Probably still are. The fact that Sony is as dumb as Microsoft's entertainment division isn't in dispute here.

 

[Pocket lint]

Probably still are. The fact that Sony is as dumb as Microsoft's entertainment division isn't in dispute here.

Moving the goalposts, I see ...

How foolish of you to assume, just because they're not compensating you.

Seriously, stop with the paranoia. I have to say I agree with Aiden. So much nonsense is spewed here, and countering the nonsense doesn't mean one is getting paid to do so, or that money should even enter the equation. It's an utterly daft notion.

 

[LagunaSol]

Dream on - as if Redmond would even care about trying to clean up this cesspool of Apple fandom....

I wondered when the Defender of Truth, Righteousness and the Microsoft Way would chime in.

And funny how this "cesspool" is the place you choose to swim.

 

[LagunaSol]

Moving the goalposts, I see ...

I'd love to hear you try to explain this comment.

 

[kdarling]

I've been online for over three decades, and one thing has never changed. You can always tell when someone is either very young, or they're losing an argument ...

They start to cry "troll" or "astroturfer" as a way to squirm out.

So gentlemen, how about putting a little more thought and research into your posts, and a lot less accusations. And please don't quote more than you need to. Only newbies do that.

Thanks! Now back to the discussions.

 

[Pocket lint]

I'd love to hear you try to explain this comment.

Would you now? It's not that hard, first you go:

Uh huh. "Our goal is to lose money for many years." Riiight.

A couple of posts later, when he mentions Sony having the same business concept, you go:

Probably still are. The fact that Sony is as dumb as Microsoft's entertainment division isn't in dispute here.

- thus suddenly admitting that it might in fact be their plan, but now that isn't the "problem" anymore. No, now your argument isn't that it's unlikely that MS has such a plan, now your problem is the audacity to compare two companies with similar business plans.

Big enough spoon?

 

[AidenShaw]

I'd love to hear you try to explain this comment.

His comment was pretty obvious to me.

Excuse me, I have to go cash my check from Microsoft now....