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Microsoft's Prototype Multi-Touch Tablet/Booklet
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Yes, the sheer magnitude of drivel pedaling, extolling, and defending MSware and vigilant anti-Apple rants around here has been staggering enough to make anyone wonder.
How bizarrely ironic? He chooses to swim in the very cesspool he perpetually dumps in.
What can I say. To a conspirationist, everything is all a part of the plan to "get" you.
It's always good fun to mingle a bit with the common mob.
Seriously, though, I find it amusing to watch you guys attack people for being MS-fanboys or accuse them of getting paid by MS, while at the same time, the entire premise of the argument is that one shouldn't be able to inject realism into the blind fanboyism on this side. I'm all for Macs, but blind fanboyism will never get us good products (again).
I'm not swimming - I'm observing from a comfortable distance (and I'm upwind, so I'm not bothered by the "vapors" coming from you).
Insert favorite tin-foil hat graphic and comment here....
Contrary to the common belief that it was invented for swimmers, it was actually the Earl of Cormia who invented the nose clip mid 16th century to protect his fine nostrils when he was to inspect his big and plentiful stables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Cormia.
True, you're sinking, while observing from a comfortable distance, albeit several fathoms below.
I'm quoting market sentiment. And really, the iPhone was released and then the whole market changed. Radically. That's pretty revolutionary. But don't take my word for it. Examine market sentiment yourself. You don't need a Steve Jobs to tell you what you already know. Namely, that the iPhone changed the entire mobile industry.
I provide links to facts, studies, articles, reports. It's all available. You provide anecdotal opinion and conjecture.
You've got the right to post either one, obviously. But one of them is going to be valid, anf the other begins and ends with the individual.
WTH are you talking about??? I said Xbox is a money pit for Microsoft. CQd44 implied that PS3 is one for Sony as well. I agreed, but pointed out that we weren't currently talking about Sony's stupid business practices, but Microsoft's.
"Moving the goal posts?" Hardly. Sony's gaming strategy this generation is as idiotic as Microsoft's. That doesn't make Microsoft's un-idiotic. And Microsoft happens to be the topic of this discussion.
You fail.
Surely they pay you automatically in Xbox Live Points...
I'd love to hear your theory on the motivation of the horde of full-time griefers who have of late infested this forum and have nothing good to say about Apple, its products, or its customers. Ever.
Please enlighten me.
To claim that the goal of the business plan for XBox is to lose money intentionally for the 8+ years of its incarnation is truly laughable - the quantity of hoops that a company will jump through, just to cry "me too," is beyond belief.
All of which are soon to expire.Surely they pay you automatically in Xbox Live Points...
by you logic you think 401k are stupid or have been the past few years because they dropped 50% or so in value in one year.
The Xbox project is a lot like 401k. A long term investment.
For 2008 and 2009 you have to cut Microsoft some slack on the 360 turning a profit. Like everyone else they are effect by the resesion so income is done but fix cost do not drop or at least not nearly as much.
The 360 I believe one year did turn a slight profit for the year.
Btw the key words for the Xbox project is LONG TERM. Hell if you look back at when the Xbox project was first launch MS even admited that it did not have any hope of it turning a profit for over 10 years. I believe they were looking 20 years down the road.
the Xbox and the 360 never intended to turn a profit. now the 3rd gen I expect to start seeing profit out of it.
The 360 to Microsoft could easily be called a loss leader. They are giving them accesses to a lot of other networks and projects that can turn a profit....
But remember the key works LONG TERM. and remember Long term is measured in years to decades.
you have to give microsoft credit. They had the balls and the guts to do such a huge long term investment. They knew going in that there was little if any hope of even starting to turn a profit after 10 years. Microsoft has both the balls and the money to go for a project that success is going to take decades to see.
It turns out you're right - there's no such thing as paid Microsoft astrotufers covertly spreading FUD about competitors.
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/09/24/want-to-troll-the-gt5-date-dont-get-caught/
Oh wait, I meant to say it turns out you're wrong.
You wanna bet some of these tools are right here with us on MacRumors? Yeah - you don't want to take that bet.
Yeah, the Xbox project is just like a 401k - a 401k where, you know, you find yourself in the hole ten billion dollars or so after a few years but you just know things are gonna turn around before you retire (hopefully).
Glad my 401k isn't like your mythical Xbox 401k...
I think when you said balls you meant to say stupidity.
Not really. By your logic, depositing +$20 Billion into a 401K, having it all evaporate, and then having it earn interest on a mere fraction of the initial investment, is hardly what anyone would consider a sound investment.
I suppose then, we need to cut them additional slack for when the economy was doing especially well, before the recession, from 2002-2006:
Should we also be cutting Apple slack for doing so well with their products during 2008-09?
Let's also be mindfull that if it weren’t for creative accounting in past fiscals, Xbox would remain unprofitable for some additional 6-7 years and $6B-$7B in losses later. Speaking of the warranty charge that was retroactively buried into a previous fiscal, here’s a report on what was really to blame - to save perhaps $10M’s, MSFT designed the graphics chip in-house rather than using an outside expert – eventually resulting in the $1B+ warranty/recall charge. Smart. I don't mean to be overly discouraging, but the XBox will likely be a L-O-N-G TERM LOSS LEADER for the next 30 years and beyond - at this rate, they'll be lucky to recoup 6 out of the +$20 Billion swallowed by this venture, as not even a dramatic surge in sales can place a dent into this fiscal reality.
+$20Yeah, the Xbox project is just like a 401k - a 401k where, you know, you find yourself in the hole ten billion dollars or so after a few years but you just know things are gonna turn around before you retire (hopefully).
Glad my 401k isn't like your mythical Xbox 401k...
I think when you said balls you meant to say stupidity.
Yes, one would:
"Revenues in the quarter were down 29 percent to $3.1 billion, and it made $1 billion less in operating profit. The Entertainment business (Xbox) saw quarterly revenues decline 25 percent, but managed to reduce operating loses to only $130 million. 1.2 million Xboxes were sold in the quarter, and each Xbox owner has now bought an average of 8.6 games. At least servers and Tools under Bob Muglia seems to be holding up. Its revenues of $3.5 billion were only down by $200 million and its operating profit of $1.3 billion was essentially flat."
Yeah I know. Not the best quarter.
So where does this show me the projected revenue streams over the next 10 years along with the $20 billion sunk costs that you've quoted?
Also I note the single quarter decline. Do you have a trend graph for the previous, say, six eight quarters and projected revenue for the next, say, 20?
Your assertion is that the Xbox line will never make profit. One quarter's revenue statement - whilst interesting - is insufficient evidence to either support or invalidate that statement.
So if can you post your rationale and the numbers behind it so we can discuss that would be great?
P.S. For some reason you seem to be pointing at the On-line and service division (mainly search) rather than the Entertainment division (Xbox). Is this just bad placement of your arrow?
Sorry, is it 10 billion or 20? I'm getting confused here.
Perhaps when DMann provides the breakdown we can clear this up once and for all. Mind you, having looked at the revenue chart he posted for the Ents division, the loss appears to be about $6 billion.
Where are all these figures coming from, gentlemen, and which one's are correct?
It was actually over $21 Billion as of Q2 2007:
"Making money, e.g., the creation of long-term shareholder value, has got to be the ultimate driver of Microsoft's gaming (and H&E) strategy, right? Well, after five years and over $21 billion invested all they've got to show for it is $5.4 billion of cumulative operating losses, and Xbox 360 doesn't appear to be the silver bullet to turn things around. I think it is also interesting to note that Microsoft's actual disclosure shows only Revenues and Operating Losses; I backed into and show EXPENSES below for explanatory purposes"
"Why might it be that Microsoft has strayed from the classic Revenues - Expenses = Profits (Losses) disclosure? Perhaps because they don't want investors to focus on the fact that over $21 billion - the market cap of a sizable independent company - has been invested in a business that has performed so poorly, with unclear prospects for improvement. Could this be the reason? Hmmm."
Please feel free to read the article for more clarification, lest we need to hold your hand any further in an effort to thoroughly convince you
Dmann,
Again all very well but your article is from April 2007 - over 2 years ago and less than 18 months into the revenue cycle and predating both Halo 3 and Call of Duty Modern Warfare. I repeat:
"Do you have projected total costs versus revenues for the next 10 years or not?"
Now, to put things in context...
Firstly, the Xbox line represents Microsoft's first stab at consumer hardware (mice and keyboards excluded) and, frankly, their endeavours could be at best described as comical and, if we're being honest, incompetent.
I can understand the first iteration of the 360 suffering faults resulting in a high return rate but to make the same error with the second iteration (in terms of motherboards) is absolutely laughable and represents an appalling approach to quality control. It is quite clear that MS do not have the experience of hardware manufacture that Apple do and because of that they have accrued unnecessary expenses and pushed their profitability point way into the future.
Bluntly, whichever way you look at it the launch of the Xbox 360 was a disaster. There is simply no arguing over this point.
However, despite this the console has been very well received and the thing that amazes me is that despite the high failure rate and attendant publicity it still sells very well. Why? Simply because it is an excellent platform with an extremely attractive on-line model and a lot of very good games and services. In other words the platform itself is awesome and anyone who doubts that it being more than a little foolish.
So, in summary, did MS make a hash of the launch and accrue unnecessary costs due to their incompetence which have pushed, say, a 10 year profit model out to perhaps a 15 year profit model? Undoubtedly. Have MS also firmly cemented their place in the console arena, built an established community and will inevitably expand their sphere of influence? Absolutely - and this despite the reliability issues and their failure to anticipate the Wii.
My issues is not with MS making a hash of the launch (which they did with Vista and for which I sincerely hope MS have had the sense to make the appropriate heads roll), it is with your assertion that the Xbox line will never be profitable. I do not believe this to be the case and until you can provide me with future projections for revenue and growth that will remain so.
As a final point, I prefer PC Gaming and sold my Xbox 360 because a PC is rthe better tool. However, as a decent PC rig will cost a minimum of £700 I can see why the went into the console arena.
Again all very well but your article is from April 2007 - over 2 years ago and less than 18 months into the revenue cycle and predating both Halo 3 and Call of Duty Modern Warfare. I repeat:
"Do you have projected total costs versus revenues for the next 10 years or not?"
Now, to put things in context...
Firstly, the Xbox line represents Microsoft's first stab at consumer hardware (mice and keyboards excluded) and, frankly, their endeavours could be at best described as comical and, if we're being honest, incompetent.
I can understand the first iteration of the 360 suffering faults resulting in a high return rate but to make the same error with the second iteration (in terms of motherboards) is absolutely laughable and represents an appalling approach to quality control. It is quite clear that MS do not have the experience of hardware manufacture that Apple do and because of that they have accrued unnecessary expenses and pushed their profitability point way into the future.
Bluntly, whichever way you look at it the launch of the Xbox 360 was a disaster. There is simply no arguing over this point.
However, despite this the console has been very well received and the thing that amazes me is that despite the high failure rate and attendant publicity it still sells very well. Why? Simply because it is an excellent platform with an extremely attractive on-line model and a lot of very good games and services. In other words the platform itself is awesome and anyone who doubts that it being more than a little foolish.
So, in summary, did MS make a hash of the launch and accrue unnecessary costs due to their incompetence which have pushed, say, a 10 year profit model out to perhaps a 15 year profit model? Undoubtedly. Have MS also firmly cemented their place in the console arena, built an established community and will inevitably expand their sphere of influence? Absolutely - and this despite the reliability issues and their failure to anticipate the Wii.
My issues is not with MS making a hash of the launch (which they did with Vista and for which I sincerely hope MS have had the sense to make the appropriate heads roll), it is with your assertion that the Xbox line will never be profitable. I do not believe this to be the case and until you can provide me with future projections for revenue and growth that will remain so.
As a final point, I prefer PC Gaming and sold my Xbox 360 because a PC is rthe better tool. However, as a decent PC rig will cost a minimum of £700 I can see why the went into the console arena.
Then, why don't you create a projection table for how Microsoft could possibly recoup a combined $26 Billion dollar loss over 30 years? FYI, due to the very high subsidies, the XBox has a very slim profit margin. Even if they sold over 2,000,000 units per year, with modest percentages from game sales, this would be a daunting task, at the very least. It will be interesting to see how your projections come out.
Just think of XBox as Microsoft's version of Apple TV. They're hobbies. AKA market penetrators.
Anyway, thought this was a thread about tablets... or in this case, booklets.
I have to agree with those who say using handwriting for input is an odd choice these days. Even those of us who grew up writing everything, including term papers (and in my case, engineering drawings), have pretty bad script abilities these days.
OTOH, when you need a keyboard for mass data entry, a virtual one is horrible to use... you can't touch type and your fingers get numb from hitting the glass.
Booklets seem destined to a niche, artistic work or home reader market. Too big for a pocket, not big enough for professional use. Thoughts?
Anyway, thought this was a thread about tablets... or in this case, booklets.
I have to agree with those who say using handwriting for input is an odd choice these days. Even those of us who grew up writing everything, including term papers (and in my case, engineering drawings), have pretty bad script abilities these days.
OTOH, when you need a keyboard for mass data entry, a virtual one is horrible to use... you can't touch type and your fingers get numb from hitting the glass.
Booklets seem destined to a niche, artistic work or home reader market. Too big for a pocket, not big enough for professional use. Thoughts?
Sorry, that doesn't fly with shareholders. Besides, a hobby responsible for a quarter trillion dollar loss is in no way comparable to Apple's.
A blue-tooth keyboard would be essential for mass appeal. I imagine one which would be similar to the design of the current wireless iMac keyboard, but even thinner and more compact, running on thin lithium-ion batteries.
This is where flexible OLED might actually fit the bill. They are still a few years away from refinement in regard to brightness, transflective pixels, and flexibility without distortion. Here's hoping for a rapid development of that.
lets just hope microsoft has not just made a good looking product that does not work like windows 7 which blue screens everytime i try to remove a program
Funny, I can uninstall programs just fine. What in the world are you doing wrong?