Microsoft's Prototype Multi-Touch Tablet/Booklet

[Journojulz]

Expose is a solution to multi windows but is is not a solution for Multiple Monitors. I am going to assume you have never used a multiple monitor set up before because then you would understand how nice it is to have one.

Oh no worries - i do use multi screens and they are a particularly aweseome way to work.

I use it for final cut, design work and even hook up the tv as a second monitor so the family can watch streaming tv while i work

My point was more to do with the specifcs of mobile working and what percentage of your time would be used moving things between screens.

You can only really work on one screen at a specific moment, so you are effectively doubling the weight and bulk while halving its battery life for a feature you may not use half of the time.

For a portable machine, the little ergonomic considerations matter.

A heavier, wider form and reduced battery life would put the double 7" screen machine in the "briefcase and coffee bar" category for me - competing with other laptops. And it would do very well, twin screens do rock.

However a single screen 'iPad' form would be a 'pocket' option, something you could stand up and use on the tube or in a queue.

 

[DMann]

So, in summary, did MS make a hash of the launch and accrue unnecessary costs due to their incompetence which have pushed, say, a 10 year profit model out to perhaps a 15 year profit model? Undoubtedly.

You seem to be aware of a revised 15 year profit model. Kindly post your 15 year profit projection table for the XBox, as this would clarify a great deal of confusion and uncertainty regarding its current status and future.

 

[Pocket lint]

WTH are you talking about??? I said Xbox is a money pit for Microsoft. CQd44 implied that PS3 is one for Sony as well. I agreed, but pointed out that we weren't currently talking about Sony's stupid business practices, but Microsoft's.

"Moving the goal posts?" Hardly. Sony's gaming strategy this generation is as idiotic as Microsoft's. That doesn't make Microsoft's un-idiotic. And Microsoft happens to be the topic of this discussion.

You fail.

I "fail"? How old are you?

Seriously, I quoted your posts, and there was nothing there to misinterpret. You were indeed moving the goalposts. The only "fail" here is your inability to even notice you're doing so.

I'd love to hear your theory on the motivation of the horde of full-time griefers who have of late infested this forum and have nothing good to say about Apple, its products, or its customers. Ever.

Please enlighten me.

Why would you again "love to hear" anything? First of all, you really don't want to hear anything contrary to your conspiracy theories, as is evident from the continued accusations from your hand: Anyone and everyone who aren't blinded by the Apple RDF, must be on the take by Microsoft.

The burden of proof is not on me. You're the one making the accusations that everyone not in utter awe of anything Apple and not expressing blind hatred of Microsoft must be paid for by Microsoft. Therefore the burden of proof is on you.

I have no idea what you mean by a "sudden influx". Most of the people you're arguing against in this thread have been here for years (I'm the noteable exception). However, I have been reading this site for several years (four, I think), and you're right to a certain extent that in the last year or so, more people have been taking the blinders off. But that doesn't mean that everyone not applauding Apple for every move and every product must be paid posters for Microsoft.
Please. Try to apply Occam's Razor to your thinking.

 

[kdarling]

However, I have been reading this site for several years (four, I think), and you're right to a certain extent that in the last year or so, more people have been taking the blinders off.

I think the reason is pretty simple: iPhones are not bought by just Apple fans. I'd even venture to guess that with so many phones and ipods sold, the majority of their owners have PCs.

So what used to be an Apple-lover-only site, now has a huge influx of people who are not awed by Jobs, his RDF, Apple secrecy, or have blind love of every Apple device and willing obedience to Apple control. (Okay, I'm being dramatic, but you know what I mean.)

 

[notjustjay]

Every good thread turns into this eventually. Two or three people, going at each other, with increasingly longer and longer posts, clever insults, and the rest of us just stand by and watch.

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Pocket lint]

I think the reason is pretty simple: iPhones are not bought by just Apple fans. I'd even venture to guess that with so many phones and ipods sold, the majority of their owners have PCs.

So what used to be an Apple-lover-only site, now has a huge influx of people who are not awed by Jobs, his RDF, Apple secrecy, blind love of every Apple device, or willing obedience to Apple control.

I think that's true to certain degree. I also think the opposite is true: That some of these "new" Apple users are so in awe with their new device and everything Apple that they think that everyone else should conform to "The Apple Way".

I also think that some "old" Mac users are done with brand loyalty wrt Apple, since their use of Macs have taken a backseat on Apple's priority list the last couple of years, if that makes sense?

 

[*LTD*]

Every good thread turns into this eventually. Two or three people, going at each other, with increasingly longer and longer posts, clever insults, and the rest of us just stand by and watch.

*grabs popcorn*

Are you not entertained??

 

[Journojulz]

Increasingly less as time goes on to be honest.

 

[*LTD*]

I think that's true to certain degree. I also think the opposite is true: That some of these "new" Apple users are so in awe with their new device and everything Apple that they think that everyone else should conform to "The Apple Way".

I also think that some "old" Mac users are done with brand loyalty wrt Apple, since their use of Macs have taken a backseat on Apple's priority list the last couple of years, if that makes sense?

I've been in awe since 1994. Even with all of System 7's little flaws - the extensions, the RAM allocating, etc., it was still a thing of beauty. I miss ClarisWorks.

 

[Pocket lint]

I've been in awe since 1994. Even with all of System 7's little flaws - the extensions, the RAM allocating, etc., it was still a thing of beauty. I miss ClarisWorks.

I have a cd with Appleworks if you feel nostalgic.

Edit:

Somewhat back on track, I think that brand loyalty arrests competition and therefore progress. This gadget from Microsoft is a good thing, even if you don't want to buy it yourself. I know I'd love to have on of those, but I also am almost certain I never will, since gadgets like these seldomly works well for lefties like me.

 

[diamond.g]

Sorry, that doesn't fly with shareholders. Besides, a hobby responsible for a quarter trillion dollar loss is in no way comparable to Apple's.

Eh the shareholders seem to have been fine with it so far (hence why the 360 is still available and wasn't pulled back like say the Dreamcast was).

 

[DMann]

I've been in awe since 1994. Even with all of System 7's little flaws - the extensions, the RAM allocating, etc., it was still a thing of beauty. I miss ClarisWorks.

Those were the days. Even if needing to resort to Conflict Catcher from time to time, the user experience was magical. ClarisWorks was awesome, as was HyperCard, Word Perfect, AfterDark, (screen saver) MacDraw, MacPaint, Lotus, etc. Wonderful memories!

 

[*LTD*]

Those were the days. Even if needing to resort to Conflict Catcher from time to time, the user experience was magical. ClarisWorks was awesome, as was HyperCard, Word Perfect, AfterDark, (screen saver) MacDraw, MacPaint, Lotus, etc. Wonderful memories!

Wasn't Myst done entirely in Hypercard? There's another amazing piece of Apple tech.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54370

 

[kdarling]

Those were the days. Even if needing to resort to Conflict Catcher from time to time, the user experience was magical. ClarisWorks was awesome, as was HyperCard, Word Perfect, AfterDark, (screen saver) MacDraw, MacPaint, Lotus, etc. Wonderful memories!

Indeed, that was when Apple was about getting computing into everyone's hands, not about controlling our access to it.

Hypercard was a great example of Apple trying to give power to common people. Now, Apple refuses any kind of interpreted code on the phone/touch because it might cut into their app store profits.

 

[DMann]

Wasn't Myst done entirely in Hypercard? There's another amazing piece of Apple tech.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54370

Bill Atkinson's the man! He designed MacPaint as well. I believe you're right, Myst was entirely done in HyperCard! I still have a set of Version 3 disks, as well as the first Myst CD.

Indeed, that was when Apple was about getting computing into everyone's hands, not about controlling our access to it.

Hypercard was a great example of Apple trying to give power to common people. Now, Apple refuses any kind of interpreted code on the phone/touch because it might cut into their app store profits.

No doubt, that sucks. Those were truly liberating times. I suppose that's why we have Jail Break.

 

[BongoBanger]

You seem to be aware of a revised 15 year profit model. Kindly post your 15 year profit projection table for the XBox, as this would clarify a great deal of confusion and uncertainty regarding its current status and future.

I used the word 'perhaps'. That said, I'll have a stab at a revenue projection model. It'll be interesting if nothing more comes out of it.

Incidentally you mention a quarter of a trillion dollars as a loss. Wouldn't that be $250 billion dollars? That doesn't sound right.

 

[DMann]

I used the word 'perhaps'. That said, I'll have a stab at a revenue projection model. It'll be interesting if nothing more comes out of it.

Incidentally you mention a quarter of a trillion dollars as a loss. Wouldn't that be $250 billion dollars? That doesn't sound right.

No, you're quite right, I meant $25 Billion, $26B to be closer to the actual figure. It would be great if you would "have a stab" at a revenue projection, whenever you have the chance.

 

[notjustjay]

I miss ClarisWorks.

Me too. My first experience with desktop publishing was learning to use ClarisWorks to put out a daily newspaper at summer camp. Every day I had two hours to come up with a full double-sided page of news to put out at the lunch table. No digital cameras back then, so we couldn't just fill up with photos. It was swaths of text, and clip-art. It was so incredibly easy. The closest thing I found on the PC was Visio (before it was bought up by Microsoft and Officified). OmniGraffle perhaps is close on the Mac. But not really.

I actually bought Appleworks for my G4 and did newsletters in that, and Visio, for a long time because, frankly, nothing else was as easy.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I used the word 'perhaps'. That said, I'll have a stab at a revenue projection model. It'll be interesting if nothing more comes out of it.

Incidentally you mention a quarter of a trillion dollars as a loss. Wouldn't that be $250 billion dollars? That doesn't sound right.

it might be to the point we should just give up because Dmann still does not understand the meaning of LONG TERM INVESTMENT does he.

When the Xbox was first launch it was stated back then that MS knew going in that just on the Xbox it would take 8 years to just break even just on the Xbox and they stated that was with out a new consel launch that they knew they would be doing.

Xbox and the 360 both were never planned to make profit.

Xbox was an upfront cost to get into the counsel market so huge loss on it was expect.

360 goal was to stop the bleed and start to break even and use new technology.

Next gen is were I expect profit to start being shown.

Microsoft expect to be around well past our life time and to them this is a very long term project and they stated that back 8 years ago that they intended to stay in this market and start tracing it back you start noticing the operational losses for the Xbox project over the years has been reducing on average. That tells me they are on the right track.

But you still fail to understand the term LONG TERM investment. You seem to think long term is 2-3 years but Microsoft looking at long term as 20-30+ years.

 

[*LTD*]

it might be to the point we should just give up because Dmann still does not understand the meaning of LONG TERM INVESTMENT does he.

When the Xbox was first launch it was stated back then that MS knew going in that just on the Xbox it would take 8 years to just break even just on the Xbox and they stated that was with out a new consel launch that they knew they would be doing.

Xbox and the 360 both were never planned to make profit.

Xbox was an upfront cost to get into the counsel market so huge loss on it was expect.

360 goal was to stop the bleed and start to break even and use new technology.

Next gen is were I expect profit to start being shown.

Microsoft expect to be around well past our life time and to them this is a very long term project and they stated that back 8 years ago that they intended to stay in this market and start tracing it back you start noticing the operational losses for the Xbox project over the years has been reducing on average. That tells me they are on the right track.

But you still fail to understand the term LONG TERM investment. You seem to think long term is 2-3 years but Microsoft looking at long term as 20-30+ years.

That completely defies any and all sense. MS' underperformance is being excused because they:

a) have enough money
b) are exepcted to be around for a while

Your explanation doesn't simply apply to the xbox franchise. What's dangerous is that if MS is so cavalier with the xbox, imagine what else they treat similarly. Well, no need to imagine, enter the Zune fiasco, years ago and today. Same for Windows Mobile. MS can afford to be uncompetitive, late, or simply wrong, because they can hide behind the "long-term investment" and hobby/experiment excuse.

So users can happily wait on the order of years to get what other companies give them today, and MS can tell investors that they can afford to wait because it's all a "long-term investment" which is really a euphemism for "we'll eventually get it right someday."

This all means that because MS is large and has deep pcokets they have a license to fail repeatdly, both in terms of their own performance (like the previous quarter) and with consumers who look to the company for tech innovation. It's a recipe for a long, slow decline.

You've basically told us that MS lazy, that it's ok because they can afford it.

And if this is truly Microsoft's MO, then small wonder they are shown up regularly by a company half their size, half their resources, half their R&D budget - a company that seems to treat every year as do-or-die.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

Indeed, that was when Apple was about getting computing into everyone's hands, not about controlling our access to it.

Hypercard was a great example of Apple trying to give power to common people. Now, Apple refuses any kind of interpreted code on the phone/touch because it might cut into their app store profits.

The hayday of Apple computing. Back when Apple was about being the number 1 desktop to the masses. Now Apple is a snooty PR machine. They make great products, I use them, support them, but being a mac user since the 80's I can tell you things have changed A LOT with Apple.

 

[LagunaSol]

But you still fail to understand the term LONG TERM investment. You seem to think long term is 2-3 years but Microsoft looking at long term as 20-30+ years.

I think the failure to understand here is coming from you. A few years from now Microsoft will have to release the Xbox 720 (or whatever they'll call it), which will sell for a loss (again) - and the cycle of bleeding will start all over. This is a LONG TERM investment that will continue to lose money LONG TERM. It's a silly, no-win business model. If Microsoft owned the consumer media market, it might make some sense. But they don't. That space for now and the foreseeable future belongs to Apple.

And smart consumers who are buying game consoles this holiday season will see Sony's offering with Blu Ray, built-in wireless and free online gaming for an equivalent price to the Xbox. Guess which they'll choose? The only option for Microsoft now is to slash prices again. Goodbye profit. It will never end.

But keep on spinning this if it makes you feel better. And Microsoft fanboys call Apple users naive. Wow. At some point people (businesses) will realize they don't need $400 office application suites and Microsoft will be left with its money-losing Xbox and Zune operations, scraping along selling OEM copies of Windows to cutthroat hardware manufacturers for $50 a pop. Of course you realize that, which is why the vitriol from the WinBots is so strong these days.

The panic is palpable.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I think the failure to understand here is coming from you. A few years from now Microsoft will have to release the Xbox 720 (or whatever they'll call it), which will sell for a loss (again) - and the cycle of bleeding will start all over. This is a LONG TERM investment that will continue to lose money LONG TERM. It's a silly, no-win business model. If Microsoft owned the consumer media market, it might make some sense. But they don't. That space for now and the foreseeable future belongs to Apple.

And smart consumers who are buying game consoles this holiday season will see Sony's offering with Blu Ray, built-in wireless and free online gaming for an equivalent price to the Xbox. Guess which they'll choose? The only option for Microsoft now is to slash prices again. Goodbye profit. It will never end.

But keep on spinning this if it makes you feel better. And Microsoft fanboys call Apple users naive. Wow. At some point people (businesses) will realize they don't need $400 office application suites and Microsoft will be left with its money-losing Xbox and Zune operations, scraping along selling OEM copies of Windows to cutthroat hardware manufacturers for $50 a pop. Of course you realize that, which is why the vitriol from the WinBots is so strong these days.

The panic is palpable.

You sure Apple own the media market... Apple may have the portal media market down with the iPod but apple failed when it comes to connecting the TV with the computer. Apple failed big time and there attempted at that market is a joke among the tech world. The Apple TV is a running Joke.

What I find is a lot of people fail to see some of the huge offering the 360 brings to the table. Once of the 360 biggest assets is how it ties in with computers on the network playing media files off the computer to the TV. Then of course the tie in with netflex. My girlfriend loves my 360 not for the games which is my big thing but for the netflex.

One thing Microsoft got very right was when it comes to connecting the computer to the TV. Microsoft saw the modders of the orginal Xbox doing that and hell they saw people modding the orginal Xbox for no other reason that to stream media over the network.

 

[LagunaSol]

Once of the 360 biggest assets is how it ties in with computers on the network playing media files off the computer to the TV.

Yeah, and guess what they're streaming to their TVs via their Xboxes? Content they're buying in iTunes.

I guess Apple should thank Microsoft for taking a huge loss on hardware to give people an easy way to use their iTunes content.

 

[Pocket lint]

Yeah, and guess what they're streaming to their TVs via their Xboxes? Content they're buying in iTunes.

I guess Apple should thank Microsoft for taking a huge loss on hardware to give people an easy way to use their iTunes content.

Talk about a strawman.

Do you realise how much (or little, if you will) content is bought on the iTunes vs. bought other places, and on physical plastic platters (you know, those shiny things)?

It's quite a lot when it comes to volume, but in percentages, not that much.
I, for one, don't use lossy formats, and I don't want to waste my time with drm, nor someone elses rips. Be it music or movies.

It seems that to you the entire world revolves around Apple, and - to you - it might just do that. But for the rest of us, we use what works the best for us. FOr some things, Apple's products might be a part of that, but to very few people it's the only way.