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More Details of the MacBook Pro

Macbook Cooling and Fan Noise

What I'm curious about is the amount of fan noise with the new Macbooks. The primary reason why I chose an existing Powerbook over an intel is because you can hardly hear the fan under just about all circumstances except for playing games. This is perfect for guys like me who use their laptops for audio recording and mixing. It is also perfect for those who simply don't want to be distracted by a fan constanly powering on and off. I've owned a lot of intel laptops and all except the Panasonic Toughbooks (certain models have no fans, but are a little underpowered) are too noisy and distracting for me to use.

So the Macbooks use the same chasis, which seems to act as a nice heat sink compared to the plastic chasis Intels. The vents are still in the same place which may suggest a similar cooling system to the G4 PBs. I'm wondering if anyone has any first hand experience with these laptops (ie. someone who attended the show) and could comment on the possibility of additional fan noise on the Macbook.
 
Bern said:
Er what about those of us who use our Powerbooks professionally? We use the internal modem to send faxes, and I certainly do from all parts of the world. Unfortunately a modem is still a necessity for a lot of people.

I do, however, believe Apple are making a step in the right direction. I have no doubt their next few revisions of the MBP will get better and better.
Click to expand...


My point was this...

The modem is used today, by a minority. The fact that those who really need one can get one as an add on for maybe $20 makes it far less of an issue that there is not one on board. IOW, it doesn't have a modem, but it's not like you can't get one. Also, dragging around a tiny little add-on modem is not like dragging around a FW800 desktop drive encolsure, or even an extra battery, etc.

As far as *why* it doesn't have a modem I don't know. Most of the Intel laptop MBs that I have seen have the Modem built-in. However, maybe the new Dual-Core laptop motherboards don't have integrated modems anymore, just like they don't have FW800 support?

Remember as far as features there are 2 parties here; Apple & Intel, that are dictating what goes into the machine and what does not.

I don't know why it's not there, I just think that it's not a tragedy that it's not. If you need it, you can get it. It might not be ideal for you, but I would guess that you are in the minority...

At first I thought that not having a 2nd FW port (be it 400 or 800) sucked, until I realized that the ExpressCard slot can actually handle the bandwidth and then some. Maybe it's not ideal that I will have to buy an add-on card (if I had a 2nd onboard FW port I probably wouldn't need such a card at all), but I can deal with it.

brain21
 
boombashi said:
I know you will be sad to hear but unfortunately you CAN INDEED use formally known as "Discreet Combustion" now "Autodesk Combustion" on OS X
Click to expand...

Awesome. Though I haven't used Combustion much at all. Not enough to warrant owning it and putting it on my PC, it's always good to have the option. I've played with it a little before and liked it, but looking at what Shake can do...

I bet it will run better on OSX as well. As someone else mentioned in this thread, M$ likes to let the public beta test their software. I think Vista will be MUCH better than previous OSes in terms of quality control, as each revision of the OS has done that (XP released in better condition than Win2k, which released in better condition than NT, etc.), it can still be a nightmare at times.

It's a double-edged sword though... The more hardware that you decide to support in order to sell more OSes, the greater the chance of that magical "bad" combination of OS & hardware & application to make the whole thing croak. You support a ton of hardware and that looks good, but the performance is compromised and that looks bad. It's a trade off. I hope Apple sticks to their current strategy of supporting a more limited set of hardware and ensuring better interoperability & OS stability, otherwise they will have as many problems as Windows, and at that point, what is to differentiate the OSes?

If this MacBook Pro dual boot thing works out, I'm telling my wife that she's getting Mac Minis (Intel - when they come out) from now on for her school (she runs one). That way they will all be identical & I can ghost a dual-boot install on all of them, & just roll it out very easily. MUCH easier to support as well (anything goes wrong with any of the computers or network or firewall, I get the call). ;)

Brain21
 
irobot2003 said:
Hmm, the advantage doesn't look clearcut to me...
Click to expand...
I agree...

Ferrari 4000 has a ATI Mobility Radeon X700 128MB GPU while the MacBook Pro has a ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB GPU. The X1600 is a faster GPU then the X700 at the resolution of the displays used by these laptops basically across the board. It also has more built-in features like for example H.264 hardware decoder. Also it is said to use less power.

The Ferrari 4000 has PC-2700 (333MHz) memory while the MacBook Pro has PC-5300 (667MHz).

The Ferrari 4000 uses a AMD Turion single core processor in comparison to the MacBooks Pro's Core Duo (dual core) processor. The Ferrari 4000 likely has an edge in single threaded performance (given 2.0GHz compared to 1.86GHz) but will easily lag in multi-threaded tasks (photoshop is a good example). ...however considering memory used I would bet the MacBook Pro would do better in single threaded memory intensive tasks.

The MacBook has a backlit keyboard, ambient light sensors, built-in iSight camera, 6-pin FireWire (not 4-pin like on the Ferrari 4000, can't power an external drive), shock sensors, ExpressCard/32 (better then CardBus), dual-link DVI (Ferrari has single-link), MagSafe power supply connection, etc. and likely longer battery life (Ferrari states 3 hours). Of course the Ferrari has all those fun memory stick slots, a modem and a tray loading double layer DVD burner.

The Ferrari is not a clear cut winner even when factoring the price if you are looking for a "professional" grade laptop.

(at current exchange rates the Ferrari linked is $1,908.543 without VAT)



Sorry the Ferrari 4000 also has the Ferrari name, racing colors, and I think it makes a "vrooom" sounds when it powers up... :rolleyes:
 
groove-agent said:
I'm wondering if anyone has any first hand experience with these laptops (ie. someone who attended the show) and could comment on the possibility of additional fan noise on the Macbook.
Click to expand...

I know Apple wouldn't put a noisy fan in there - I had an iBook and you could hear the fan turn on once in a while, but it was no louder than the Hard Drive.
 
brain21 said:
If this MacBook Pro dual boot thing works out, I'm telling my wife that she's getting Mac Minis (Intel - when they come out) from now on for her school (she runs one). That way they will all be identical & I can ghost a dual-boot install on all of them, & just roll it out very easily. MUCH easier to support as well (anything goes wrong with any of the computers or network or firewall, I get the call). ;)
Click to expand...

I'm really interested in this iEmulator program - it is only $24 for life and they are coming out with a new Univeral binary within a few weeks.

http://www.iemulator.com/

Way cheaper than Virtual PC. and this is going to be available when I get my MacBook. They stated that the next version emulate x86 anymore so it's considerably faster. BIOS would still need to be emulated, but that doesn't slow it down much. That way when Windows crashes it won't take down your system - absolutely brilliant. If it's 80-90% actual speed we are in for some interesting times.

[EDIT] Forget that it looks like it is based on QEMU which is free here and probably updated more http://free.oszoo.org/download.html
 
tommyff said:
The solution Acer is selling is XP Pro, plus Office, itunes and every other windows compatible program under the sun- matching whatever else iLife has to offer - a solution, a jolly good one, with a future compatible 64 bit chip for 64 bit programs; which come September and Vista will be ubiquitous. And all for a cheaper price.
Click to expand...
If you find Windows to be as good a solution for you as virus-free OS X plus integrated iLife suite, then you do have many options out there. Just consider the question carefully before you come to that conclusion :)

And the quality issue is valid: EVERY manufacturer's machines have problems that need warranty service, but Apple's reliability record has been consistently on top. Consumer Reports and others have done large-scale surveys to that effect.

Look at any forum and you'll see the people who have problems--because who would bother posting "my PowerBook still runs great this week"? But the bigger picture is that Apple's record is excellent, and that cheap PCs are often cheap for a reason (whether compared to Apple or to more expensive PC brands).

Be careful not to make the mistake of looking at just one or two specs. Look at ALL the specs and what's included with any Mac, and you'll seldom find a name brand PC cheaper.

(BTW Acer's Core Duo machine is apparently 1/3 bigger in volume than the MacBook, if that matters to you.)
 
planet of me said:
will the express card slot relieve issues for fw800?
Click to expand...

If there is a market for it I assume someone will make it...and it sounds like there probably is. However, currently there are no ExpressCards available for anything that I know of...it's a new standard, so I'm sure they will be coming shortly.
 
The Acer 8200 :
http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/acer_travelmate_8200_laptop.html

A similarly designed ( camera-wise) Dothan version :
http://www.shopnbc.com/product/?fam...03&ciid=11282&taxid=&cm_re=HP-_-HS4-_-JustAir
I believe this to be a generic ASUS computer.

What I found interesting while watching that generic on shopnbc was what the salesman said..

He said " this computer is only 1 of 2 companies that build aluminum cases.The other one being Apple.As a matter of fact we used to make the iBook case but we dont have that account anymore.But there's 100's of companies so no big deal".

The way he said it was like Apple ended their contract with them recently.Which tells me Apple now has a different company and/or design for the iBook..
 
shawnce said:
I agree...

Ferrari 4000 has a ATI Mobility Radeon X700 128MB GPU while the MacBook Pro has a ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB GPU. The X1600 is a faster GPU then the X700 at the resolution of the displays used by these laptops basically across the board. It also has more built-in features like for example H.264 hardware decoder. Also it is said to use less power.

The Ferrari 4000 has PC-2700 (333MHz) memory while the MacBook Pro has PC-5300 (667MHz).

The Ferrari 4000 uses a AMD Turion single core processor in comparison to the MacBooks Pro's Core Duo (dual core) processor. The Ferrari 4000 likely has an edge in single threaded performance (given 2.0GHz compared to 1.86GHz) but will easily lag in multi-threaded tasks (photoshop is a good example). ...however considering memory used I would bet the MacBook Pro would do better in single threaded memory intensive tasks.

The MacBook has a backlit keyboard, ambient light sensors, built-in iSight camera, 6-pin FireWire (not 4-pin like on the Ferrari 4000, can't power an external drive), shock sensors, ExpressCard/32 (better then CardBus), dual-link DVI (Ferrari has single-link), MagSafe power supply connection, etc. and likely longer battery life (Ferrari states 3 hours). Of course the Ferrari has all those fun memory stick slots, a modem and a tray loading double layer DVD burner.

The Ferrari is not a clear cut winner even when factoring the price if you are looking for a "professional" grade laptop.

(at current exchange rates the Ferrari linked is $1,908.543 without VAT)



Sorry the Ferrari 4000 also has the Ferrari name, racing colors, and I think it makes a "vrooom" sounds when it powers up... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


And it has an apple logo... :rolleyes:
 
boombashi said:
I'm really interested in this iEmulator program
Click to expand...

Interesting.... Once all of these emulators are UB it would be realy interesting to see a magazine do a shootout of them and compare speed, software compatability, etc.

I wonder, do any of these allow you to (from within the emulator) directly access files on an NTFS filesystem?

If I were to dual-boot, I know I can directly access the mac stuff on the HFS partition using MacDrive, but can anything on the Mac side directly access stuff on an NTFS partition. Even if I have to run an emulator to do that, it would be really convenient.

Also, how do these emulators work? I believe that VMWare creates a partition, and you must install the OS into that partition. The whole thing is virtualized. Do these other programs (VirtualPC, etc.) work the same way? If so, I wonder if instead of taking up disk space for yet another installation I could just point the emulation software to the already installed partition?

Brain21
 
brain21 said:
I believe that VMWare creates a partition, and you must install the OS into that partition. The whole thing is virtualized. Do these other programs (VirtualPC, etc.) work the same way?
Click to expand...
I can only answer for VPC: it CAN work from a special partition or drive, but it can also save you the trouble: it can work from a "hardfile" disk image on your Mac drive. (One that only takes up as much space as it needs to for the contents, I believe.) VPC will create that hardfile and install Windows on it all in one go.
 
shawnce said:
I agree...

Ferrari 4000 has a ATI Mobility Radeon X700 128MB GPU while the MacBook Pro has a ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 256MB GPU. The X1600 is a faster GPU then the X700 at the resolution of the displays used by these laptops basically across the board. It also has more built-in features like for example H.264 hardware decoder. Also it is said to use less power.

The Ferrari 4000 has PC-2700 (333MHz) memory while the MacBook Pro has PC-5300 (667MHz).

The Ferrari 4000 uses a AMD Turion single core processor in comparison to the MacBooks Pro's Core Duo (dual core) processor. The Ferrari 4000 likely has an edge in single threaded performance (given 2.0GHz compared to 1.86GHz) but will easily lag in multi-threaded tasks (photoshop is a good example). ...however considering memory used I would bet the MacBook Pro would do better in single threaded memory intensive tasks.

The MacBook has a backlit keyboard, ambient light sensors, built-in iSight camera, 6-pin FireWire (not 4-pin like on the Ferrari 4000, can't power an external drive), shock sensors, ExpressCard/32 (better then CardBus), dual-link DVI (Ferrari has single-link), MagSafe power supply connection, etc. and likely longer battery life (Ferrari states 3 hours). Of course the Ferrari has all those fun memory stick slots, a modem and a tray loading double layer DVD burner.

The Ferrari is not a clear cut winner even when factoring the price if you are looking for a "professional" grade laptop.

(at current exchange rates the Ferrari linked is $1,908.543 without VAT)



Sorry the Ferrari 4000 also has the Ferrari name, racing colors, and I think it makes a "vrooom" sounds when it powers up... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Also the MacBook Pro is 1 inch thin:)
 
271 said:
SAS?? mentioned a few pages ago as a benefit of PCie in the macbook pro...
Click to expand...

Serial Attached SCSI similar to SATA, primarily designed for disk attachment.
 
At least you can buy one...

Aaon said:
Hehe, sometimes I wish I didn't read these boards. When the MacBook Pro was announced i was all set to buy, and after reading these boards, I am having second and third and fourth thoughts... what if they introduce somethign super cool in a month? And maybe I should wait for Merom instead of Yonah, and maybe they'll redesign the case!

If I keep this up, I'll NEVER end up buying something! I need a laptop, and I think the MacBook looks like a good one. And if something else cmes out, I can always sell it on ebay!
Click to expand...
People were "underwhelmed" by MWSF's keynote, and the X-Files-like fans immediately began smelling coverup... "Steve coughed one too many times"... "Steve spent over an hour on iLife"...

Please, there were roughly 200 posts on the MacRumors MWSF page before the keynote even happened. Most of it seemed like idle banter, but a great deal of it was speculation about what Steve would announce.. And, yes, a lot of it was "rose-colored glasses" speculation about Apple Plasma TV-PCs, mini DVRs, new iPods, whatever...

However, after the keynote and all the "hugh?", "Whuh!" & "Why nots!?!" had begun to die down, along comes this new rumor from someone with "reputable credentials" who happened to bump into a high-level Apple-associated friend, who said "I wouldn't buy a MacBook Pro... not yet... way cooler stuff coming... too soon..."

Whatever...

Buy the MacBook Pro if it meets your needs. You know that in 6 months Apple will (has always) come up with "something better" to "immediately send your purchase to the scrapheap of obsolescence". Apple did do an incredible job with their first Intel offerings. Now, did they offer every whizbang feature people expected, no. Will some/many/all those "missing" features appear later this year, yes (and no).

I don't believe the MacBook Pro is vaporware. It exists in engineering lots - what were people playing with at the Apple booth after the keynote... Dell, Acer, NEC, et al list February availability for their Yonah laptops, same as Apple...

The 15" PowerBook is the most popular size, so it only makes sense that Apple would transition it before the 12" & 17" models. And the fact that people bemoan the case as looking so similar to the present G4 - (a) what was wrong about that enclosure, (b) how much more different could they make it, and (c) perhaps Apple wanted to reassure people that just because the CPU was changing didn't mean the Apple-experience was going down the tubes...

Buy the MacBook Pro if it offers the price & features you need now. Base that choice on how well it will empower you to accomplish your tasks. Don't base your choice on the Chicken Little-esque rumors flying around the Mac-web (just take a look back over the past few years to see just how "out there" 75% of the rumors proved to be).

As soon as I can file my tax returns I will then begin the decision process on whether or not the MacBook Pro meets my needs for the next couple of years - Merom-powered 64bit dual-core laptops will be out this Fall (likely with BluRay), but those will be Rev.-Zero, just like the MacBook Pro...
 
Sox said:
I'd love to see an Apple notebook encased in monocoque carbon-fiber. On the rowing team in college, our Resolute eight (resoluteracing.com) was beautiful and virtually indestructible. Think the current iBook case, only on steroids. I don't know how financially viable this is, but it would be the ultimate in portable durability (and black, as well).
Click to expand...

Thanks to the new Airbus there is a world shortage of carbon fibre (and will be for the next 2 years or so) which has really driven the price of it up. I do a lot of sailing and it has made carbon fibre parts much more expensive. Don't know if that has anything to do with it.
 
"The MacBook Pro is melting, the MacBook Pro is..."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Chundles
A guy who frequents another forum I visit is at MWSF and says the MBP's are running very, very hot. Yes, they've been constantly on with heaps of people trying to do crazy-cool things with them but he reckons they are bloody hot."

groove-agent said:
Oh oh - not good news. One of the main reasons why I use a Powerbook is because the fan doesn't annoyingly turn on and off (which really sucks if you record audio with a Mic nearby, or mix). I was very concerned about Apple's switch to Intel because none of the the intels that I bought were quiet enough for recording. I am VERY CURIOUS if the fans on the new Powerbooks are more intrusive than the original PBs.
Click to expand...
See, here's part of the problem with this doom & gloom speculation... "A guy who frequents another forum...". No disrespect intended, but does Chundles really know "this guy" enough to trust him at his word? And Apple is likely tweaking the machines even as we speak to reduce heat issues and extend battery life - Dell & others routinely offer different battery sizes as BTO options on their laptops, so maybe Apple will, too.

One story I came across this morning said a guy at MWSF "accidently" removed the MagSafe powercord on one of the MacBook Pros at MWSF to see what the battery life indication was - it said 3.3 hours was the estimate... I'm certain he wasn't the first to do this that day on that machine, so what does that tell us? Is Apple purposely witholding battery info, because "it only gets 3.3 hours on a charge!?!"... Trust me, the Yonah can shut down cores as needed, and system-load, more than CPU load, will determine an individual user's battery life, as well as how hot & noisy it will run.
 
One thing i think we need to keep in mind when talking about products like vmware. There is NO emulation needed. VMWare does not do emulation, it doesn't have to. VMWare will only run other operating systems that have the same chip architecture (aka intel) as the machine that VMWare was installed on. VMWare is basically creating a "sandbox" of your computer. Any time you request access to the drive from an operating system, VMWARE intercepts the request and passes the request to the main/host operating system. Since no emulation is actually performed you get near native performance.

Microsoft makes two versions of Virtual PC. The VirtualPC for Windows does the same thing as VMWARE, so there's no emulation involved. Virtual PC For the PowerPC does do emulation, it needs to emulate the intel chip from inside a PowerPC. I thnk Microsoft should be able to port Virtual PC for Windows to the Intel macs very easily.

scott.
 
Opening the 3rd-Party Marketplace?

CrackedButter said:
I personally believe that Firewire 800 will be added back in... All this new and cool technology is still out there being worked on. If thats the case and nothing else is going to compete with it, i doubt Apple is not going to put it in their laptops in the future.
...
Also just a nitpick to all these people to who say "the new expansion card can take a FW800". Doesn't this go against the whole Apple philosophy of trying to provide an out of the box experience?... even now, more and more FW products are coming onto the market where the standard connectivity was via USB2...
Click to expand...
To compete against PC Yonah laptops, Apple may have tried to use as much "standard" Intel tech as possible. I haven't read yet what degree of Intel's Napa platform Apple decided to use in the MacBook Pro (and iMac), especially with regards to Centrino & AirPort cohabitation/comingling... However, FrWr800 is not part of the present Yonah/Napa platform, so Apple would have had to engineer its inclusion (both pricey & iffy first time out).

One interesting side-note is that the WiFi & Bluetooth are on separate cards now - part of Napa, or due to AirPort/Centrino "marriage" issues?

At any rate, it may be a boon to Apple that FrWr800 is not on the mobo for the MacBook Pro: it opens a door for numerous, previously-PC-only developers to extend their products to the Mac platform. And if Apple & Intel add FrWr800 to Napa (or whatever platform Merom will reside on), then everybody wins.

One question I do have, though, is that it seems as if the ATI X1600's BTO option for 256MB has the extra 128MB sitting in the Express Card/34 slot... Is this true? Which means that anyone needing to insert a FrWr800 card (or other type) would "lose" that extra 128MB of VRAM... And if it is on the Express Card/34, why isn't it a BTO option for the 1.67GHz MBP, too?

Yeah, there are some "kinks" to work out over the next few months. Yeah, the 12" & 17" have yet to join the party. And, yeah, it will only get better with Rev.-A and again with Merom... But overall the MacBook Pro looks like a major leap forward... Too bad I still feel that gag-reflex about the name (I never have gotten used to the ugly looks of the Pontiac Aztec, Honda Element or Chrysler 300M, but the Nissan Frontier has grown on me).
 
The MacBook Pro & iMac Core-Duo are not Rev.-A

kugino said:
i agree that it seems rushed out the door. but hey, there will still be many who buy this.

one rev A machine that i liked better than rev B was the G5 dual 2.0 PM. it had 8 ram slots, the 9600 video card (in contrast to the 5200 later on and only 4 ram slots)...sometimes rev B takes away more than it adds, albeit with some price reductions...but, i think rev B macbooks will be much better than rev A...
Click to expand...
Just a nitpick, but technically the MacBook Pro and iMac that Steve introed at MWSF are NOT Rev-A machines. "Rev-A" implies that it is the first revision to an existing design. The MacBook Pro and (arguably) the iMac Core-Duo are both the first models in a new set of series.

True, they both carry over a number of features from their PPC progenators, but the changes are significant enough that the are not Rev-A. Maybe a better term would be Rev.-Zero...
 
Tommyff, check out some of my pre-MWSF posts

tommyff said:
Everyone seems uptight about the FW800 and the DVD player - what I don't see is any concern that this is a 32 bit chip - does that not matter? ... the iMac Duocore chip is ALSO 32 bit, representing a step backwards from the G5 - does this matter? It may be faster, but what about future compatibility - given that practically every desktop PC bought this Christmas harbored a 64 bit processor - I think it's worth worrying about.

Also, OS 10.4 made such a big thing about being 64 bit - I can't find a single mention of the term on Apple's website anymore!...
Click to expand...
I posted similar thoughts back in December, leading up to MWSF. However, the iMac G5 and iMac Core-Duo are primarily consumer machines. Very little software is optimised for 64bit, and I doubt any of it is targeted at the iMac crowd. Yeah, I thought it might be a marketing nightmare, to drop from 64bit to 32bit, albeit dual-core, but Apple was right to figure that 90% of iMac buyers will only see that it is 2-3x more powerful than the iMac G5 2.1GHz.

Eventually the iMac will switch back to 64bit, but not until this Fall at the earliest. That is when Merom, the 64bit follow-on to Yonah debuts. It is targeted at the same systems that Apple introduced at MWSF - hi-end laptops and hi-end consumer desktops. By next MWSF MacOS X v.10.5 "Leopard" should be out (or at the event), and its 64bit features will be much more pervasive. As for software to take advantage of 64bit Macs & Leopard - right now developers have their hands full just trying to come out with PPC/x86 universal-binary versions of software... Give them time. Most likely iLife '07 will be first out the gate with 64bit support.
 
From Norse Son -

"One question I do have, though, is that it seems as if the ATI X1600's BTO option for 256MB has the extra 128MB sitting in the Express Card/34 slot... Is this true? Which means that anyone needing to insert a FrWr800 card (or other type) would "lose" that extra 128MB of VRAM..."

Woah! Where'd you hear that? Can anyone Confirm/Deny??? That would be a deal breaker, I'd have to cancel my order...

Z
 
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