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More Details of the MacBook Pro

brain21 said:
...continued:


1) No FW 800. OK, FW is NOT Dead. FW 800 is NOT dead. But as of right now, Intel's chipsets don't support it. At least not ON the MB. Don't blame Apple. Find me a PC laptop that has FW 800 on the MB!

BUT!!! Apple did have the forethought to use Intels new ExpressCard standard. Expresscard has a throughput of 2.05Gbs EACH WAY! That's right, in EACH DIRECTION! FW800 supports speeds of up to 800Mbs, but that is total speed. IOW, you can get 800Mbs in only one direction, either to or from the PC. OR you can get 400 each way simultaneously. ExpressCard gives you 2.05Gbs EACH WAY. Theoreticaly you could simultaneously DL data from a server at Fibre Channel speeds, and *SIMULTANEOUSLY* upload data to a server at FibreChannel speeds. Oh, and ExpressCard is cheaper to make than std PCMCIA & CardBus. Sure, cards will be more expensive when they first come out. That is due to preceived value pricing. Eventually they will drop because it is cheaper to make ExpressCard than PCMCIA.

THink about it this way... even if you ONLY DL, the expresscard gives you 2 FW800 & 1 FW400 ports. And it STILL has bandwidth for uploading the same.

I don't know about you guys, but I will gladly get rid of the FW800 knowing that its NOT an Apple descision, and knowing that they are at least making up for it by giving me something that will within months be an order of magnitude BETTER. Think about it. FibreChannel to your FREAKIN LAPTOP!

2) Less resolution - well this one I can't argue with. I too think it should have been 1440x960. At a 14.4:9 aspect ratio, it should be called "wider screen" not "Wide screen" :) I guess they did it for the iSight. If they can have the consumer use an external mode, they can have the user have an external iSight and don't compromise the reolution. However, you DO get a nice video card. Remember a lot of those cheaper PC brands use the Intel Extreme Graphics cards with shared RAM. If the ram isn't bad enough, these are aenemic cards to begin with. Now add the fact that it has to share it's ram with the computer system through the PCI bus....

3) No Super Drive - Hmmm. This one still burns DVD right? But just at 4x. I would imagine that the reason(s) for this descision (or at least contributing factors) might be: a) DL burning requires more battery power, thus shortening life b) 4x burning is more reliable (seems a bit weak) c) Maybe they were planning on doing the super drive, but there were problems getting it to fit size-wise (or some other manufacturing problems that were out of Apple's control), and the fix for those problems was not fixed before ship date. I would not be surprised to see DL SuperDrive replacements down the road..

4) No new design - Oh, please... "The Acer has Carbon Fiber" - there are several brands that actually have carbon fiber coverings. Should Apple now becom a trend follower? Perhaps they came up with several designs and they just didn't like them as much as the PowerBook. The PowerBook is simple, understated, and elegant really. It is also instantly recognizable. Why change it now? Especially to something that is not as instantly recognizable? Think of it this way... you PowerBook users are used to it. However, to Apple "newcomers" it will be almost as nice & new as it was to you when you first got/saw them. THis is really just a sillly nitpicky complaint that doesn't hold very much weight at all. I bet the same people that are complaining that it is the "same old" design were ohhhing and ahhing when it came out. Apple is hoping to get new oooohers and ahhhhers now...

There's a reason that the VW Bug and the Porsche 911 changed very little over the years.

5) You hate the name - this is just the dumbest arguement of all! So don't call it "my MacBook"! When referring to it call it whatever the hell you want! Be generic ("My Mac Latop"), be nostalgic ("My Intel PowerBook"). DO whatever you want. Call it whatever you want. If you want NEVER EVER referr to it as a MacBook EVER again, unless you are talking to Apple Customer Care, or ordering another one, etc. It's up to YOU! So screw the name, don't get your panties in a wad, and just drop the issue. It's so ridiculous.

6) Drives are average size (you're just gonna hafta replace 'em) - Drives are the same as pretty much all of the laptop drives being used these days. They are, however, SATA drives which are much faster than std IDE drives. Remember this when comparing MacBooks to PC laptops as well. 100GB != 100GB when it comes to laptops. For a proper comparison, the other laptop must have the same sized *SATA* drive, running at the same RPMs as well. A LOT of the new laptops out there do not offer SATA drives std. (or at all).

7) Processor is too slow. You want to 2.x GHz CPU! - MAYBE those run hotter, so Apple decided against them until they could find a better way to cool them. MAYBE Intel said that they could guarantee a steady supply of the 1.67 & 1.8 GHz CPUs but were, at least at the time, unsure whether they could produce enough of the 2.xGHz, esp considering that Intel had bigger customers that might be eating up the available supply. MAYBE the 2.xGHz cpus were not a good financial deal considering price vs performance. IOW, perhaps Apple decided that the extra speed difference between the 1.8 & 2.x was not worth either the extra cost (I think almost double the price for only a slight performance gain), the extra heat, or the lower battery life. If they based their descisions upon those criteria, then kudos to them for having the balls to make the *right* descision rather than the *popular* descision.

Don't know if you guys have looked at benchmarks for the Pentium M processor line (Intels current single core mobile chips based on the "Sonoma" architechture), but the perfomance curve is not very steep at the top end. IOW, you see a noticable speed difference between the 1.67 & 1.86GHz CPUs, but the performance differencee between the 1.86 & the 2.xGHz CPUs is really not that much of a difference at all. It *certainly* does not justify the huge jump in price! Too many people want the fastest CPU simply because it is the fastest. By how much, they don't care. In the end it really is for ego, personal gratification, & bragging rights. Big deal! And for crying out loud, the "they are too expensive" complaints would double when you see the price difference between a 1.86GHz and a 2.xGHz on an Apple! Apple, I'm sure, will bow to the pressure and intro 2.xGHz Yonahs in April or whenever...

You complain that there is no G5 laptops (hello! Heat!) You say that the new laptops had BETTER be faster. Now you get one that is faster than a Dual G5 desktop, and you are complaining cause it's not fast ENOUGH!?! STOP THE INSANITY! :)

8) Battery power - battery power is reported at 6 hours from what I've read. I imagine that being the best case scenario. I think 4-6 hours is probably a goot estimate when all is said and done. They are probably not hiding it, there is no great "it really has only 45 minutes of battery life, so lets just keep our mouths shut and ignore the issue" type of conspiracy going on at Apple. Since the MacBooks are not shipping till Feb. I would bet that have not yet done enough tests to make certain claims yet (you gotta test more than just one to get an accurate estimate). Calm down everyone. All is well.

9) No Modem - God, *who cares!?!* I know that some of you use dialup when travelling, etc. So get an external dongle-style modem and use that. I mean for those that DO use modems, how often do you REALLY use it? Besides that, if you are somewhere where you are using a modem, odds are that location isn't the escalator in a mall, right? Odds are that you are sitting or something like that, so having a dongle on the laptop is not that big of a deal.

10) iSight & security - This is just silly. If you are in a sensitive area, esp. where an iSight could constitute a breach of that security, the simple fact that the laptop has Wifi is a FAR greater risk. Furthermore most places that have that kind of security (DoD, DoE, CIA, etc., etc.) won't let you bring the device in, period. I have been to the DoE visting. Neither myself nor any employees there are allowed to bring in laptops, cell phones, USB thumb drives, etc. And I can't get much further than the lobby! :)

11) No video out - as has been said, there is an adapter solution. Links to buy them I believe are elsewhere. in this thread.


Let's look at the bottom line here...

- You have a laptop that is faster than a dual G5 desktop! (stop complaining about processors)
- You have a laptop that you can support *Fibre Channel*(!) speeds! (stop complaining about FW800)
- you have a laptop that STILL looks great (stop complaining that its not a new design)
- you have a laptop that has a BRIGHTER SCREEN (so at least temper your screen complaints)
- you have a laptop that is of superior or "premium" or "boutique" build quality and is STILL only w/i $200+ of the cheap-build bargain brands, and costs the SAME as it's predecessors, despite it being 2-4 times FASTER (stop complaining about price)

I tell you, there are gonna be a LOT of desktop G5 users that are just DIEING to get one of these. Probably why you don't really see too many of them complaining in this thread, unless they also have a MAC laptop of sorts.

I wonder what the percentage of complainers here are really (either knowingly or subconsciously) just pissed that they (relatively) recently bought a PowerBook and now something a lot better comes out...

Well now most of your reasons for complaint are hopefully allayed, disproven, killed, etc.

Brain21
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Great post! People are taking the extremely minor shortcomings much too seriously. I think once they get one into their hands opinions will reverse.
 
I think the main reason people here are complaining is because the new MacBook doesn't look different.Generally speaking..

Had it come out in shiny black and chrome folks would be clammering all over the place about how cool the new powerbook is..

And all this from a bunch of supposed computer savvy users..

You naysayers should be ashamed of yourself..
 
neutrix said:
From what I've read and seen, eSATA devices are the way to go. Sure, we don't currently have eSATA hubs, but you can raid 2 or more drives easily and you have more throughput than firewire 800. What do you mean that SATA is only point to point? If I'm looking for portable storage isn't that all I care about? I've never needed to hook up a network through firewire - I'm betting most people are with me on that (unless booting a computer up so as to install Tiger using Target Disk Mode). All I want is an ExpressCard 34 eSATA host adapter
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If all you care about is disk attachment then SATA / SAS / etc. attachement is a good way to go, I am not saying otherwise. What I am saying is that SATA does not have the capabilities that FireWire does that are needed for other types of attachements like video and audio devices (dasiy chaining and even direct video device to disk, or video device to capture device, etc).
 
devman said:
You can buy a 15" PB G4 today. Or, for only $70 more you can buy a 15" MBP plus DVI-S-video cable and USB modem. For that extra $70 you get a system that is slimmer, has a much nicer screen, has waaaaaay better graphics capability, is significantly faster, includes an iSight ($150 to buy separately), plus the apple remote (cost $ to buy separately - and you can ebay this if you won't want it), and is SATA internally and has a 2.5Gb/s interface with expresscard/34 for all sorts of near term possibilities.

Your call. Get the PB G4, or pay an extra $70 and get the MBP.
Click to expand...

Pretty much says it all. The MBP is a far better deal.
 
As a current Dual 2.0 G5 owner, I'm kinda bummed that these new laptops completely dominate the desktops. It was exepcted to happen anyway as the line started moving over to ICBMs (Intel-chip based Macs...I love using this acronym). But....my computer still gets done what needs to be done and does it VERY fast still.
 
syklee26 said:
let me ask you guys something: isn't laptop a portable computer device? you are carrying the thing around in your backpack and I assume you aren't going to carry around external hard drives with 800, which adds 3 lbs more and more hernia too.

same thing goes to superdrive DL. are you going around burning pirated movies or something? I have lightscribe DL and I haven't used DL once. I still don't see the practical purpose of it.

Of course, having these devices are better than not having them. but losing them don't really give me a reason not to get the macbook pro.
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You have valid points, but there are a lot of us out there that can only afford one computer. So we get a laptop and use it mostly as a desktop replacement with only occasional travel. In that case, at least in my case, I have a FW800 external drive hooked up to my Powerbook all the time. When it comes time to upgrade, it really is going to stink having to go back to FW400 or USB2.
 
devman said:
well if you don't like it, you shouldn't buy one. And you seem to be saying you don't like it and and won't be buying one. So... good decision! (for you)

Now, here's another way to look at it.

You can buy a 15" PB G4 today. Or, for only $70 more you can buy a 15" MBP plus DVI-S-video cable and USB modem. For that extra $70 you get a system that is slimmer, has a much nicer screen, has waaaaaay better graphics capability, is significantly faster, includes an iSight ($150 to buy separately), plus the apple remote (cost $ to buy separately - and you can ebay this if you won't want it), and is SATA internally and has a 2.5Gb/s interface with expresscard/34 for all sorts of near term possibilities.

Your call. Get the PB G4, or pay an extra $70 and get the MBP.
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Oh you forget to mention the $200 or so to upgrade the optical drive. Also possibly $50-$80 for FireWire 800 via expresscard. I already have an isight too so I can scratch that out. SATA in a notebook internally? what for? for the future of course but even current 2.5 inch 7200RPM drives come nowhere close to needing SATA bandwith. FW800 would be better suited for High speed bandwith and in a notebook and that kind of performance can only be achieved with RAID externally. As far as Graphics go I love performance but I don't need the best in a notebook. Please:rolleyes: when I need Graphics heavy lifting I have a Quad G5 with 7800GT and an Athlon 64 machine with an X800XT.

Another hidden cost is all my Apps are currently non-Universal binary. I calculated I'll spend about another $100 or on Apple alone let alone other vendors who may charge for upgrades or flat out require me to buy a new version. Apple so kindly chose not to show us exactly what kind of performance we will see with Apps under Rosetta. So I may have to spend hundreds more on software to see the performance really shine and if anything this is the main sticking point holding me back right now not the aforementioned which are not major obstacles but minor ones that don't make my decision any easier.

BTW the MacBook Pro is pretty sweet and is overall superior but there are concerns that I feel are legitimate before I go plunking down $2500. I would want to buy one now but only if the decision were as simple as your sarcasm implies.
 
dethl said:
As a current Dual 2.0 G5 owner, I'm kinda bummed that these new laptops completely dominate the desktops. It was exepcted to happen anyway as the line started moving over to ICBMs (Intel-chip based Macs...I love using this acronym). But....my computer still gets done what needs to be done and does it VERY fast still.
Click to expand...

Your Dual 2.0 G5 will generally outperform the top end MacBook Pro, they don't really dominate PowerMac G5s just yet (unless you have a single cpu low low end PowerMac G5).
 
shawnce said:
Your Dual 2.0 G5 will generally outperform the top end MacBook Pro, they don't really dominate PowerMac G5s just yet (unless you have a single cpu low low end PowerMac G5).
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That's simply not true..

My DTK outperforms my old G5 1.6 by leaps and bounds and is creaping up on my dual G5 2.3
 
Peace said:
That's simply not true.. My DTK outperforms my old G5 1.6 by leaps and bounds and is creaping up on my dual G5 2.3
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The DTK used a top end Pentium 4 CPU that easy will out perform a single G5 1.6 and give higher end G5s a run for their money (at least in single threaded performance). The Pentium 4 is a power hungry beast that doesn't belong in a laptop.

The Yonah core is about the same as a G5 core clock-for-clock but burns much less power (Yonah has better integer performance, about the same floating point performance, for SIMD I don't know). Given that the MacBooks top out currently below 2 GHz they wont dominate* a PowerMac G5 that has more then one core at a higher clock rate.

* as in have a huge advantage over
 
Brain21's post was pretty much on-the-money in many ways.

The firewire800 thing bothers me a bit, as my external drives are FW800/US2. However, I personally only use an external for backup on occassion, so I am not running off it. Hopefully, an reasonally priced expresscard will show up soon for those needing FW800. It is a rather odd interface though; its optical without optical connectors.... and I wonder how much of Apples buying base actually uses that port. (we by NO MEANS are a representative sample of Apples core user base.)

Also, that acer machine, as posted, is 14.33 x 10.82 x 1.10/1.43 (196.14" cubic) inches vs. macbook pro at 14.1x9.6x1.0 (135.36"); that is a 30% difference in size, with about 15% less weight. (acer is around 6.5lbs+)

And about the design changing? Good design at this point for apple evolves; the ipod has hardly changed since its introduction! (Granted, its different to macphiles, but to most people its just about identical)
 
I personally believe that Firewire 800 will be added back in. I remember when the designers of said technology said they could "do" FW1200 or even FW1600 then there is even wireless firewire. All this new and cool technology is still out there being worked on. If thats the case and nothing else is going to compete with it, i doubt Apple is not going to put it in their laptops in the future.

I remember the last release of the G4 Powermacs didn't have USB2 or the Laptops, everybody conspired on these boards saying its an intel technology and blah blah blah. Then Apple added USB2 without much fuss, they just saved it for the newer Powermacs then introduced it into the other machines afterwards.

It will be the same again. But the new powermac will be the real test, you can then make a fuss if they remove it from that machine. Theoretically, it has no limitations so it should stay there.

Their is no conspiracy here, its not as though Apple wouldn't give them the controller, if its even an issue of actually "giving".

Also just a nitpick to all these people to who say "the new expansion card can take a FW800". Doesn't this go against the whole Apple philosophy of trying to provide an out of the box experience? I personally want FW800 and USB2, they don't compete for me, they do different things. I do think its a question of usage, even now, more and more FW products are coming onto the market where the standard connectivity was via USB2. Professional cameras now have a 6 pin firewire port and some memory card readers need the extra bandwidth, Lexar do a compact flash FW card reader.

Bottom line, don't panic, just wait. Half of you, if not most of you here said you would wait till Rev B anyway. So wait. I will.
 
Battery life

Did anyone at the expo unplug a MacBook and see what the battery status showed in the menu bar?
 
question...

how come the PPC iMac and CoreDuo iMacs sell for the same price :/

shouldn't they have knocked off at least 100 bucks on the PPC one??
 
CrackedButter said:
Also just a nitpick to all these people to who say "the new expansion card can take a FW800". Doesn't this go against the whole Apple philosophy of trying to provide an out of the box experience?
Click to expand...

No. Apple has decided that the out of the box solution that most people need / want doesn't include FW-800 (or modeom or S-Video or parallel port or floppy disk, etc.), at least it wasn't high enough up on the list to make it a must for the first MacBook Pros.

Apple is about providing the solution that makes sense (for the price point and target market), no more no less. The know that the ExpressCard slot (as well as USB, FW, DVI, etc.) will cover those that need something outside of what the solution directly allows for.
 
nsjoker said:
how come the PPC iMac and CoreDuo iMacs sell for the same price :/

shouldn't they have knocked off at least 100 bucks on the PPC one??
Click to expand...

...and give some whiners a chance to go "HEY LOOK APPLE IS CHARGING MORE FOR THE NEW INTELS"

...anyway expect the price to either drop or for them to go unlisted...
 
You Can Bet On It!

SiliconAddict said:
I'll go on a killing spree at Apple if they pull that crap within 6 months. :mad:
Click to expand...

Reality check - you are buying a Rev A of a new hardware/software platform. What exactly are your expectations given this? You can bet that there will be a Rev B within 4 to 6 months - or less- with VERY substantial changes based on their learnings about the Rev A. In addition, it will give them an opportunity to add/modify those elements and features they couldn't have ready for the introduction. I agree with the others who feel they rushed to get this out the door for MWSF - it shows.

If you need a 15" immediately I might consider it. Personally, I wouldn't do it - but that's me. If you could hold off for a few months I definitely would.
 
Wow, they put Intel inside and immediately start acting like Dell and shaving off the features. If Apple is going to act like Dell then they should lose the Apple pricing they still cling to.
 
F14CRAZY said:
They brought back the Duo!

Intel Core Duo

Powerbook Duo (2300c!)
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Plymouthbreezer said:
That would have been a ten times better name.
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*WARNING: MISSED SARCASM ALERT*

You mean it was a ten times better name. (Though I disagree.) The Powerbook Duo was Apple's attempt at a dockable laptop, introduced 1992, canned (after endless problems with Duo Docks) in 1995. Sure, let's bring back that name . . . and while we're at it, why doesn't Ford release a new model called the Edsel?
 
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