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DL-Drive

Hi everyone,

now with the height of the MacBook...

That is measured when the laptop is closed. Now if at all, it shrunk a tiny little bit, even im comparison to the PB 17''. Doesn't sound good for giving up the 8x drive. On the other hand Apple also had to / wanted to integrate an iSight as well a brighter screen which is thicker. Therefore the "upper" screen part of the MacBook actually takes up more space than in the old PB. They had to give up the 8x drive to thin the MacBook at least a little bit overall. Effectively the keyboard part is some 20-25 % thinner. So, no complaints there from my side.

There goes my first post...
 
Randall said:
And this means that we will be able to dual boot into windows. Congratulations everyone! :p

The only thing I think sucks is no DL DVD burner. I never used modem or FW800... ever.

No offence... but FW800 = completely useless.

Arent Dual Layer discs expensive though? I have a dual layer drive and have burned anything dual layer. DVD shrink is a magical program. ;)
 
javiercr said:
Well the thing has two cores so 1 g4 core requires 65watt and 2 cores intel requires 85 watt, not 130w! only 30watt more to get twice the power is not bad mate! the sarcasm about the single/double layer and modem really does not make sense here.

The processors is not the only power hungry component. Many people I think forget about the graphics card. Most stock desktops need power supply upgrades with high-end graphics cards.
 
Sucks it doesn't have Firewire 800, but it has the ExpressCard slot. Read up on it, it's like Cardbus but based on PCI Express. So I'm sure it can be added in the future (if/when it becomes more or less common)
 
F14CRAZY said:
Sucks it doesn't have Firewire 800, but it has the ExpressCard slot. Read up on it, it's like Cardbus but based on PCI Express. So I'm sure it can be added in the future (if/when it becomes more or less common)

Well, but with an ExpressCard we'll be able to get SAS which is even better than FW800!
 
backdraft said:
Only 2x faster than G5 with 2 cores? Intel @65nm and the G5 @90nm also taking into consideration the faster RAM and Video Card on the intel...

Just for your info a Dual G5 is not TWICE as fast as a single G5 either...50-60% at most. So I'd say a new single Core Solo is probably going to be in the neighborhood of 40% faster than a single G5. Of course running Univeral binaries.

[Edit] Woops, my bad I was being MUCH too generous with our old Friend the G5 (note the processor intensive tasks, the Graphics are obviously much better on the Tower G5s so those will be considerably faster) http://www.barefeats.com/im21.html
 
Photorun said:
Actually Randall, you and your dumbarse comments are what's really useless.

Stop talking out your rear and/or telling people what your feeble mind thinks of things like your misguided weak opinions in all these threads and your silly sophomoric pithy troglodyte babblings, you're a waste of 1s and 0s. You aren't the authority on anything, you're just a opinionated blowhard troll.
Wow. I think that you need to get that bug out of your a$$ as soon as possible. Run along little one, the grownups are talking.
 
kaneda said:
17" MacBook Pro will be the first to have Blue-Ray burner...

Now that would be sweet... :cool: Personally, I'm not buying my next Mac until it has a Blu Ray burner (among other criteria) so this would be a nice sight to see. :cool:
 
ieani said:
Arent Dual Layer discs expensive though? I have a dual layer drive and have burned anything dual layer. DVD shrink is a magical program. ;)
Yeah DL discs are about $3.00 per disc around here. At least they are at Best Buy. Needless to say, if I mess up a burn, more then a couple of curse words are flying. :p
 
Maybe we wont see intel ibooks or 12 and 17 macbooks until summer

they have released an intel desktop and an intel laptop.

maybe they will not redesign all and release when ready...in one brilliant sweep.

it makes sense in a strangely logical way. maybe i am simply trying to justify my decision to wait till summer...
 
Randall said:
Yeah DL discs are about $3.00 per disc around here. At least they are at Best Buy. Needless to say, if I mess up a burn, more then a couple of curse words are flying. :p

Not to mention DL disks can only burn at like 2x (maybe less with a laptop SuperDrive, not sure) they take over 30min or so to burn if I remember correctly. I doubt many use DL disks at all, and the future for the DL recordable format looks grim if they don't get the speeds up and the prices down. I'm sure Apple thought about that as well. Just get a $70 external 16xDL Drive if you need more speed or DL capability.
 
boombashi said:
Not to mention DL disks can only burn at like 2x (maybe less with a laptop SuperDrive, not sure) they take over 30min or so to burn if I remember correctly. I doubt many use DL disks at all, and the future for the DL recordable format looks grim if they don't get the speeds up and the prices down. I'm sure Apple thought about that as well. Just get a $70 external 16xDL Drive if you need more speed or DL capability.

Yeah, I agree - I almost wonder sometimes if SL will outlast DL once Blu Ray becomes more mainstream - it will be interesting to see...
 
Chupa Chupa said:
Funny how Apple can't but Acer can. (Their Core Duo lappy with 1" case ht. has a DL drive. Makes you go hmmm... :confused:
The 17" G4 PowerBook can too. So why not the MacBook? Because Apple has something (motherboard?) underneath the optical drive, clearly. Whatever is under there may not have anyplace else it could fit without making the rest of the case bigger.

What are the other dimensions of the Acer? (The 17" PB clearly has room to spare compared to the MacBook.)

Also, you can't say the Acer has the same case thickness unless you subtract the lids of both machines. The MacBook apparently has a thicker lid than the 15" PB (to fit the iSight? and/or the brighter screen lamp?) which makes the body case even narrower. That alone could explain why Acer has more room to work with. (Likewise, Acer's camera may have different dimensions.)

Then there's the keyboard. How thick is Acer's keyboard mechanism? Is it as sturdy? Backlit like Apple's?

I don't know the answers to these dimensions, just pointing out that it's not as simple as it first seems. I believe Apple's telling the truth when they say they couldn't get ultraslim DL drives. I'm sure they hoped to, but they don't exist--yet.

Also, for the record, I'd rather have thin than dual-layer :)

EDIT: As posted by others below, the Acer is about 1/3 larger than the MacBook Pro.
 
nagromme said:
Also, for the record, I'd rather have thin than dual-layer :)

Excellent points, and I especially agree with this last point. As I asked in another thread, other than illegally copying movies, what other uses are there for DL burners, their relatively slower speeds to SL burners, and their relatively pricey media? :cool:
 
~Shard~ said:
Yeah, I agree - I almost wonder sometimes if SL will outlast DL once Blu Ray becomes more mainstream - it will be interesting to see...

If Blu-Ray even does. Ive heard costs are getting pretty high. And I will not buy $60 movies.
 
ieani said:
If Blu-Ray even does. Ive heard costs are getting pretty high. And I will not buy $60 movies.

Well, that's to be expected with any new technology. DVD burners (and CD burners before them) along with their media were cost prohibitive as well upon their introduction, but as with anything else, prices decrease over time. We'll see where Blu Ray is at a year from now....
 
~Shard~ said:
Excellent points, and I especially agree with this last point. As I asked in another thread, other than illegally copying movies, what other uses are there for DL burners, their relatively slower speeds to SL burners, and their relatively pricey media? :cool:

I'm sure it's kind of dumb, but I like dual-layer because of the archiving properties. I do a little bit of photography, a little video editing, a little music, nothing major, all for fun, but that stuff can eat up space like woah, so I like to archive the stuff (as I don't need it everyday, and I want a backup). For me, it's nicer to stuff all that crap onto one disc rather than two. I'm sure I can live with burning two DVDs, but if I could just do one, then why not?

Granted, there's no way that I'd even generate 8+gigs of crap to archive every week, and I'm sure I could throw most of that stuff away, but it's nice to have the capability of doing it.
 
beefstu01 said:
I'm sure it's kind of dumb, but I like dual-layer because of the archiving properties. I do a little bit of photography, a little video editing, a little music, nothing major, all for fun, but that stuff can eat up space like woah, so I like to archive the stuff (as I don't need it everyday, and I want a backup). For me, it's nicer to stuff all that crap onto one disc rather than two. I'm sure I can live with burning two DVDs, but if I could just do one, then why not?

Granted, there's no way that I'd even generate 8+gigs of crap to archive every week, and I'm sure I could throw most of that stuff away, but it's nice to have the capability of doing it.


Firewire HD's are cheap and hold a lot more than a DL DVD..And you can transfer to firewire HD's faster than burning to a DL DVD too.
 
Hehe, sometimes I wish I didn't read these boards. When the MacBook Pro was announced i was all set to buy, and after reading these boards, I am having second and third and fourth thoughts. Do I need DL and FW800? Probably not. But what if they introduce somethign super cool in a month? And maybe I should wait for Merom instead of Yonah, and maybe they'll redesign the case!

If I keep this up, I'll NEVER end up buying something! I need a laptop, and I think the MacBook looks like a good one. And if something else cmes out, I can always sell it on ebay!
 
heh, i just read on a Mac related web page that the STiVo and Phil Schiller were on 802.11a during the keynote to avoid interferences from other wi-fi gear in the hall... ;)
 
Oh my dear GOD!!!!!! You guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I have ever seen!!!!! Holy SH*T! (well, not *so* much in this thread as in the other MacBook thread w/ over 1000 posts in it!)

First of all, coming from the Windows/PC world, I find it simply hysterical to hear Apple users complaining about price!!!! For many many years we in the PC world (and not just Windows users - *nix users as well) have been saying that Apples just cost way too much. Our Apple friends tell us that their machines are so much better, and we say that they are also so much more expensive, and the Apple folks try to refute that. Then OS X came out. For the first time ever, MANY windows users (including myself) and many *nix users running KDE, Gnome, Enlightenment, etc. were like "Wow, now THAT is a nice GUI". The other nice thing (at least this is what we in the Windows world believe) is that Macs just WORK. There is FAR less to deal with in terms of weird reasons why certain software won't work on certain PCs, etc. I had to ditch a MB because Samplitude was crackling when I tried to record audio. Turns out that it was some weird compatability thing between the M-Audio cards and the VIA chipset. M-Audio constantly released new drivers in a furious attempt to fix the problem. For some driver "A" fixed it, for some driver "B" fixed it. For some (like myself) none did and I get a new MB w/o the VIA chipset. Such are the woes of the Windows users.

...back on track...

So until VERY recently, when someone would ask a Windows user why they didn't switch or make the my OS is better than your is, well it was hard to argue. With OSX the GUI is nicer (I hated the look, etc. of OS9). On Macs **** just works, which is REAL nice. SO what's left? Well, there are lots of apps that won't run on Mac OS X that kick ass that I don't want to give up (Samplitude is one for me - NuEndo is overpriced even more than Samp, and I won't touch ProTools - thats another story), and ...

That Mac hardware is so expensive.

Now, I can run both OSes (theoretically at least). That arguement is gone, and I, personally, am thrilled. I've been wanting to get a Mac since I got into video editing. Everything that you can do graphics-wise, I can do on Windows. Everything that you can do audio-wise on a mac, I can do on Windows, and I have a WHOLE lot more options. Video editing, OTOH, is a far different story. I can't run Vegas on a Mac, but I can run FCP, which I think is better. For Motion graphics, I have a whole lot more choices. Not only do I have AE, but I also have Motion & Shake as well. I do give up Discreet Combustion though, I do believe. :-(

Funny thing is... now that the hardware is on a more level playing field I hear Mac users saying "it's too pricey"!!!!!! Thanks for taking the Red Pill Neo, this is the REAL world!! :)

I really do actually find it funny. It's as if many of you have just woken up to a realization that us (inferior Windoze users to many of you) have known all along.

But guess what? It really isn't that far out of line at all.

First of all, lets set the record absolutely straight here.

We have a Dual-core laptop coming out at a base price of $1999, and it is at least TWICE as fast as the previous model.

The 15" G4 PowerBook came out. It was priced at (big shock here) $1999. For that you got a COMBO drive (not super drive) 512MB of ram, and a combo drive, NOT a super drive. The price is not out of line historically speaking at all. For all you 15" PowerBook guys complaining about the price, you got yours at the same price, and it is a slower computer. If this is way too expensive now, then the G4 PowerBooks were also way to expensive then, and you have NO ROOM to argue this point, so keep quiet about it, lest you look like a fool whose money parted a long time ago. If you got your PowerBook at the above specs for less, did you get them for that price RIGHT when they came out (IOW, pre-orders & 0-day purchasing), or was it a little later (you know, after the inevitable price drop over time)?

You guys sit here and moan (really, moan like this to your PC buddies, and they too will laugh at you and say SEE? I told you! Macs are too expensive), but it's really not THAT bad.

You compare the MacBook to basically any old laptop that is running a dual-core processor. You see an Acer that has very closely similar specs and is priced $300 less and talk about how the Apple is now a rip off.

Let me let you Apple guys in on a little secret here in the PC world...

Take an Acer, and Apple, and an Alienware or VoodooPC. Spec them all out to the same specs (don't bother going to the sites, neither company have dual-core laptops out yet). Guess what? The Apple will be about $500 more than the Acer. The Alienware or VoodooPC will be about $500 more than the Apple. Why is that? They are essentially the same laptop, right? Same specs & everything...

NO. You are paying extra for workmanship, reliability, *design* (just like you pay extra for designer jeans rather than Levis), and more. You see, it's much more than features. That is why Voodoo Labs absolute cheapest laptop *starts* at $1900. That's why the Alienware that starts at $1000, but there are not that many features (and a 3 hour battery), and the decent ones are priced at only slightly under the price of the MacBook and have only single-core processors.

Spec out a Dell that is the same as an Apple. The Apple will be 33% more expensive. However, that Apple will probably last a LOT longer. I bet Apple didn't have Beavis & Butthead deciding that the exhaust fans should be on the BOTTOM of the laptop so that if you set it on your... LAP... or desk, it will overheat the CPU in 5 minutes. I bet the LCD hinges don't break off after about 3 years (i've had a few Dells - my wife has one now). I bet the slightest tug on the power cable (not even enough to knock the laptop off of a table) can short out the middle pin on the power connector on the laptop making plugging the thing in impossible (had that happen on a Dell that I owend and *2* Toshibas that I had for work). Won't happen with the Apple. Or the Alienware. Or the VoodooPC. NOT because of the magnetic thing, but because of better build, slightly higher priced connectors, etc. And THAT is why you pay extra. Oh yeah, try to take advantage of your 1 year warranty. I have heard a few people complaining about hardware problems every now and then, with their Apple computers. What I HAVE NOT heard is them bitching about Apple's customer service for their PC. You've got the same warranty from Acer. Go google for some horror stories about customer service from these PC makers! Again, you won't get those stories from Alienware or VoodooPC owners. Again, that part of what you are paying for.

To me, all that **** I mentioned above is WELL worth an extra $200-$500

Think of it like this... You are comparing a Chevy SUV to a BMW X5, and complaining about the price difference. They are both SUVs, both have the same engine size, both get about the same gas mileage, both seat the same number of people, both have a nice stereo, etc. BUT, there are little touches and nuances about the BMW. The BMW is a LOT more reliable (if you don't believe me, get out of the 80's 'BMWs breakdown' mindset and get with the reality of the past decade or so). The BMW feels better built and more solid. The BMW looks nicer (though that is a more objective thing). in a few years, the BMW will still run nice and smooth. There are reasons why you pay more for a BMW even though on PAPER it looks about the same a a Chevy SUV (not picking on Chevy here, pick on any less expensive brand). You wanna compare the BMW X5 to something? Compare it to a Lexus SUV, or an Infinity. THAT's more Apples to Apples (no pun intended).

Here's another thing I find really funny about (only some of) you guys complaining about the price... I read some of the posters bought your PowerBook sometime in the last year. You were GONNA get the new MacBook, but upon further inspection, it's lacking too many features and is overpriced. Sorry... if you've got enough $$$ to buy a laptop very recently, and then run out and buy another like some of us buy more RAM, then you probably shouldn't be complaining about a measly $200+! Not only that, but re-read the part where I say that the PowerBooks cost the same as the new MacBooks.

That being said, I have noticed that most of the people complaining about the laptop are PowerBook users. iMac & G5 users aren't really the ones here complaining. Theres a reason for that. Read on...

Now, on to the other things you whiney-babies have been complaining about... (OK, next post)

Brain21
 
...continued:


1) No FW 800. OK, FW is NOT Dead. FW 800 is NOT dead. But as of right now, Intel's chipsets don't support it. At least not ON the MB. Don't blame Apple. Find me a PC laptop that has FW 800 on the MB!

BUT!!! Apple did have the forethought to use Intels new ExpressCard standard. Expresscard has a throughput of 2.05Gbs EACH WAY! That's right, in EACH DIRECTION! FW800 supports speeds of up to 800Mbs, but that is total speed. IOW, you can get 800Mbs in only one direction, either to or from the PC. OR you can get 400 each way simultaneously. ExpressCard gives you 2.05Gbs EACH WAY. Theoreticaly you could simultaneously DL data from a server at Fibre Channel speeds, and *SIMULTANEOUSLY* upload data to a server at FibreChannel speeds. Oh, and ExpressCard is cheaper to make than std PCMCIA & CardBus. Sure, cards will be more expensive when they first come out. That is due to preceived value pricing. Eventually they will drop because it is cheaper to make ExpressCard than PCMCIA.

THink about it this way... even if you ONLY DL, the expresscard gives you 2 FW800 & 1 FW400 ports. And it STILL has bandwidth for uploading the same.

I don't know about you guys, but I will gladly get rid of the FW800 knowing that its NOT an Apple descision, and knowing that they are at least making up for it by giving me something that will within months be an order of magnitude BETTER. Think about it. FibreChannel to your FREAKIN LAPTOP!

2) Less resolution - well this one I can't argue with. I too think it should have been 1440x960. At a 14.4:9 aspect ratio, it should be called "wider screen" not "Wide screen" :) I guess they did it for the iSight. If they can have the consumer use an external mode, they can have the user have an external iSight and don't compromise the reolution. However, you DO get a nice video card. Remember a lot of those cheaper PC brands use the Intel Extreme Graphics cards with shared RAM. If the ram isn't bad enough, these are aenemic cards to begin with. Now add the fact that it has to share it's ram with the computer system through the PCI bus....

3) No Super Drive - Hmmm. This one still burns DVD right? But just at 4x. I would imagine that the reason(s) for this descision (or at least contributing factors) might be: a) DL burning requires more battery power, thus shortening life b) 4x burning is more reliable (seems a bit weak) c) Maybe they were planning on doing the super drive, but there were problems getting it to fit size-wise (or some other manufacturing problems that were out of Apple's control), and the fix for those problems was not fixed before ship date. I would not be surprised to see DL SuperDrive replacements down the road..

4) No new design - Oh, please... "The Acer has Carbon Fiber" - there are several brands that actually have carbon fiber coverings. Should Apple now becom a trend follower? Perhaps they came up with several designs and they just didn't like them as much as the PowerBook. The PowerBook is simple, understated, and elegant really. It is also instantly recognizable. Why change it now? Especially to something that is not as instantly recognizable? Think of it this way... you PowerBook users are used to it. However, to Apple "newcomers" it will be almost as nice & new as it was to you when you first got/saw them. THis is really just a sillly nitpicky complaint that doesn't hold very much weight at all. I bet the same people that are complaining that it is the "same old" design were ohhhing and ahhing when it came out. Apple is hoping to get new oooohers and ahhhhers now...

There's a reason that the VW Bug and the Porsche 911 changed very little over the years.

5) You hate the name - this is just the dumbest arguement of all! So don't call it "my MacBook"! When referring to it call it whatever the hell you want! Be generic ("My Mac Latop"), be nostalgic ("My Intel PowerBook"). DO whatever you want. Call it whatever you want. If you want NEVER EVER referr to it as a MacBook EVER again, unless you are talking to Apple Customer Care, or ordering another one, etc. It's up to YOU! So screw the name, don't get your panties in a wad, and just drop the issue. It's so ridiculous.

6) Drives are average size (you're just gonna hafta replace 'em) - Drives are the same as pretty much all of the laptop drives being used these days. They are, however, SATA drives which are much faster than std IDE drives. Remember this when comparing MacBooks to PC laptops as well. 100GB != 100GB when it comes to laptops. For a proper comparison, the other laptop must have the same sized *SATA* drive, running at the same RPMs as well. A LOT of the new laptops out there do not offer SATA drives std. (or at all).

7) Processor is too slow. You want to 2.x GHz CPU! - MAYBE those run hotter, so Apple decided against them until they could find a better way to cool them. MAYBE Intel said that they could guarantee a steady supply of the 1.67 & 1.8 GHz CPUs but were, at least at the time, unsure whether they could produce enough of the 2.xGHz, esp considering that Intel had bigger customers that might be eating up the available supply. MAYBE the 2.xGHz cpus were not a good financial deal considering price vs performance. IOW, perhaps Apple decided that the extra speed difference between the 1.8 & 2.x was not worth either the extra cost (I think almost double the price for only a slight performance gain), the extra heat, or the lower battery life. If they based their descisions upon those criteria, then kudos to them for having the balls to make the *right* descision rather than the *popular* descision.

Don't know if you guys have looked at benchmarks for the Pentium M processor line (Intels current single core mobile chips based on the "Sonoma" architechture), but the perfomance curve is not very steep at the top end. IOW, you see a noticable speed difference between the 1.67 & 1.86GHz CPUs, but the performance differencee between the 1.86 & the 2.xGHz CPUs is really not that much of a difference at all. It *certainly* does not justify the huge jump in price! Too many people want the fastest CPU simply because it is the fastest. By how much, they don't care. In the end it really is for ego, personal gratification, & bragging rights. Big deal! And for crying out loud, the "they are too expensive" complaints would double when you see the price difference between a 1.86GHz and a 2.xGHz on an Apple! Apple, I'm sure, will bow to the pressure and intro 2.xGHz Yonahs in April or whenever...

You complain that there is no G5 laptops (hello! Heat!) You say that the new laptops had BETTER be faster. Now you get one that is faster than a Dual G5 desktop, and you are complaining cause it's not fast ENOUGH!?! STOP THE INSANITY! :)

8) Battery power - battery power is reported at 6 hours from what I've read. I imagine that being the best case scenario. I think 4-6 hours is probably a goot estimate when all is said and done. They are probably not hiding it, there is no great "it really has only 45 minutes of battery life, so lets just keep our mouths shut and ignore the issue" type of conspiracy going on at Apple. Since the MacBooks are not shipping till Feb. I would bet that have not yet done enough tests to make certain claims yet (you gotta test more than just one to get an accurate estimate). Calm down everyone. All is well.

9) No Modem - God, *who cares!?!* I know that some of you use dialup when travelling, etc. So get an external dongle-style modem and use that. I mean for those that DO use modems, how often do you REALLY use it? Besides that, if you are somewhere where you are using a modem, odds are that location isn't the escalator in a mall, right? Odds are that you are sitting or something like that, so having a dongle on the laptop is not that big of a deal.

10) iSight & security - This is just silly. If you are in a sensitive area, esp. where an iSight could constitute a breach of that security, the simple fact that the laptop has Wifi is a FAR greater risk. Furthermore most places that have that kind of security (DoD, DoE, CIA, etc., etc.) won't let you bring the device in, period. I have been to the DoE visting. Neither myself nor any employees there are allowed to bring in laptops, cell phones, USB thumb drives, etc. And I can't get much further than the lobby! :)

11) No video out - as has been said, there is an adapter solution. Links to buy them I believe are elsewhere. in this thread.


Let's look at the bottom line here...

- You have a laptop that is faster than a dual G5 desktop! (stop complaining about processors)
- You have a laptop that you can support *Fibre Channel*(!) speeds! (stop complaining about FW800)
- you have a laptop that STILL looks great (stop complaining that its not a new design)
- you have a laptop that has a BRIGHTER SCREEN (so at least temper your screen complaints)
- you have a laptop that is of superior or "premium" or "boutique" build quality and is STILL only w/i $200+ of the cheap-build bargain brands, and costs the SAME as it's predecessors, despite it being 2-4 times FASTER (stop complaining about price)

I tell you, there are gonna be a LOT of desktop G5 users that are just DIEING to get one of these. Probably why you don't really see too many of them complaining in this thread, unless they also have a MAC laptop of sorts.

I wonder what the percentage of complainers here are really (either knowingly or subconsciously) just pissed that they (relatively) recently bought a PowerBook and now something a lot better comes out...

Well now most of your reasons for complaint are hopefully allayed, disproven, killed, etc.

Brain21
 
bubbalwz said:
No booting from USB? Looks like firewire is on it's way out (no FW800, and new iPod's are USB only) so I would expect to see this.
I think Apple had some fairly major time constraints and an opportunity to get the product out the door using fairly generic Intel components, and hence the very similar enclosure. Plus, the applications that utilise FW800 are serious pro apps that may not be universal binaries for some time and as a result the speedup and compatibility with Rosetta may be an issue. So, get a machine out the door that will soak up a lot of the demand for new *Books which will take some of the pressure off/generate revenue. Then take a little more time to build a fully featured PB replacement.
 
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