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Aaon said:
Hehe, sometimes I wish I didn't read these boards. When the MacBook Pro was announced i was all set to buy, and after reading these boards, I am having second and third and fourth thoughts. Do I need DL and FW800? Probably not. But what if they introduce somethign super cool in a month? And maybe I should wait for Merom instead of Yonah, and maybe they'll redesign the case!

If I keep this up, I'll NEVER end up buying something! I need a laptop, and I think the MacBook looks like a good one. And if something else cmes out, I can always sell it on ebay!

yeh man, that's the tragedy of technology. plus you never buy first edition anything, always takes 'one or two' tries to get it right. but then by the time the second revised duo probook comes out, merom will be due, and you don't want to get the first edition of that either... lol. it's a bastard cycle. sometimes i wish i could just give apple $10K in advance in exchange for 5 years of free hardware upgrades. yeh... they should allow that...
 
this whole intel thing... apple has a double edged sword. now apple hardware can be compared with PC hardware point for point... no Mhz myths to fall back on now.
 
Stewie said:
So did anyone see the quote from The Cult of Mac Blog on Wired.com

"He also said that if he were me, he probably wouldn't order one of the new MacBook Pros."

I wonder what that means? :confused:

From what I've read, it is likely referring to the 20" MacBooks that are supposedly going to be coming out at the 30th Anniversary. Perhaps those will be thicker, w/ DL drives & 2.x GHz CPUs. And they will reflect that in the cost as well...

Brain21
 
Mr Maui said:
If I am correct, Firewire 800 is being eliminated because USB2 has comparable speeds (and is backwards compatible with USB 1.1, thus requiring only one port unlike FW400/FW800) and very few companies are manufacturing products with FW800 support, so it makes sense to use the space for something else useful and practical for mobility. FW800 support is still presently in the towers.

FW supports 800Mbs sustained (I believe)
USB 2.0 supports only 400Mbs burst. And I think less if USB must provide power for the device over the line. USB 2.0 isn't even as fast as FW400.

See in my previous posts about the ExpressCard...

Brain21
 
mdavey said:
Edit: I doubt it will be long before DL super-slim drives are available, and at the right price. Expect a slient upgrade to shipping products in the near future ;)

I'll go on a killing spree at Apple if they pull that crap within 6 months. :mad:
 
so...I don't get it.

Everyone is complaining like Apple cut the budget and didn't want to put a firewire chip in the notebook because its not in the Intel chipset.

Last time I checked Intel has never put ANY firewire in an Intel chipset, and you usually need to use a TI firewire chip.

If this is the case, the decision was probably not financial as they already added a firewire chip. Maybe its power? Or failure rate (I've heard rumors of motherboard failures from FW800).
 
MB Heat and Fan Noise

Chundles said:
A guy who frequents another forum I visit is at MWSF and says the MBP's are running very, very hot. Yes, they've been constantly on with heaps of people trying to do crazy-cool things with them but he reckons they are bloody hot.

Oh oh - not good news. One of the main reasons why I use a Powerbook is because the fan doesn't annoyingly turn on and off (which really sucks if you record audio with a Mic nearby, or mix). I was very concerned about Apple's switch to Intel because none of the the intels that I bought were quiet enough for recording. I am VERY CURIOUS if the fans on the new Powerbooks are more intrusive than the original PBs.
 
F14CRAZY said:
Sucks it doesn't have Firewire 800, but it has the ExpressCard slot. Read up on it, it's like Cardbus but based on PCI Express. So I'm sure it can be added in the future (if/when it becomes more or less common)
Well, part of the beauty of the current PowerBooks was that I didn't need any cards... it's one more thing to lose... and I imagine not as cheap as a cable. Also the cards will stick out 1/2" from the slot.

Also note that although there are ExpressCard/54 FW800 cards available, there don't seem to be any ExpressCard/34 FW800 cards currently available... and that's what is needed for the MacBook.

Perhaps most personally annoying, after holding off for some time, I just bought a 2.5" FW800 external drive since FW800 finally seemed to be gaining some steam.
 
brain21 said:
Oh my dear GOD!!!!!! You guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I have ever seen!!!!! Holy SH*T! (well, not *so* much in this thread as in the other MacBook thread w/ over 1000 posts in it!)
Brain21

Woah...that is one long post. :D And I thought I ranted a lot.
 
groove-agent said:
Oh oh - not good news. One of the main reasons why I use a Powerbook is because the fan doesn't annoyingly turn on and off (which really sucks if you record audio with a Mic nearby, or mix). I was very concerned about Apple's switch to Intel because none of the the intels that I bought were quiet enough for recording. I am VERY CURIOUS if the fans on the new Powerbooks are more intrusive than the original PBs.

I'm curious about the fan noise as well. One of my favorite features is the extremely, seemingly fanless, quiet that comes from my G4 PB. This has got to be the quietest laptops I have ever used. I hope the switch to intel doesn't bring about the turbine fan noise that exists in most PC laptops.

Also how about sleep mode. Does anyone know if the intel chipset supports the instant on and off of OS X sleep. The windows laptops I have seen have a lousy sleep on and off speed.

I also will be very curious about rosetta performance of Photoshop compared to G4 PB and comparison of typical iLife, GUI, etc. intel native speed compared to G4 PB PPC native speed. I just don't buy into phoney SPEC_base_2000 numbers that are highly skewed to favor dual core CPU. I would rather see real world application performance.
 
brain21 said:
Oh my dear GOD!!!!!! You guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I have ever seen!!!!! Holy SH*T! (well, not *so* much in this thread as in the other MacBook thread w/ over 1000 posts in it!)

Brain21
Way to introduce yourself to the forums!! I pretty much agree with everything you said, which is why after selling my powerbook 15" in october in the hopes of an intel one, I ordered immediately after the store came back online. Sure there are a few compromises in the new MacBook, but to me they are completely negated by the monumental shift in processing power. I mean let's be serious. A 167mhz bus in the year 2006 is quite pathetic.

All I have to do now is send back the 12" powerbook I got from Amazon, just in case the new intels didn't arrive at Macworld. It was such a pain going back to windows for a couple months that I had to pick up something in the interim. :D
 
Explain to me why eSATA isn't better than firewire 800?

shawnce said:
SATA and FireWire are rather different beasts... you cannot directly compare them.

SATA is point-to-point bus with a very specific capability.

FireWire is a "networkable" bus that supports various types of point-to-point communication with isochronous and bandwidth guarantee capabilities.
From what I've read and seen, eSATA devices are the way to go. Sure, we don't currently have eSATA hubs, but you can raid 2 or more drives easily and you have more throughput than firewire 800. What do you mean that SATA is only point to point? If I'm looking for portable storage isn't that all I care about? I've never needed to hook up a network through firewire - I'm betting most people are with me on that (unless booting a computer up so as to install Tiger using Target Disk Mode). All I want is an ExpressCard 34 eSATA host adapter - even if it had just 1 input for the MBP (MacBook Pro). I would hook that up to an external eSATA enclosure with a 7200 300 gig SATA drive. The eSATA cables are a little more fragile and shorter... but again who cares. Anytime I've seen any of my friends using their portables, they only hook up one external hard drive at any given time, and it's usually right beside them. eSATA throughput is better than firewire 800... so let's get on it!
:)
 
nxent said:
yeh man, that's the tragedy of technology. plus you never buy first edition anything, always takes 'one or two' tries to get it right. but then by the time the second revised duo probook comes out, merom will be due, and you don't want to get the first edition of that either... lol. it's a bastard cycle. sometimes i wish i could just give apple $10K in advance in exchange for 5 years of free hardware upgrades. yeh... they should allow that...

OK, but a 2nd generation MacBook Pro will likely have a 1st generation Merom chip, so following your logic, we should all wait for the 3rd generation before we buy...:p
 
nxent said:
yeh man, that's the tragedy of technology. plus you never buy first edition anything, always takes 'one or two' tries to get it right. but then by the time the second revised duo probook comes out, merom will be due, and you don't want to get the first edition of that either... lol. it's a bastard cycle. sometimes i wish i could just give apple $10K in advance in exchange for 5 years of free hardware upgrades. yeh... they should allow that...


ummm ... I might be talking bull here - but I believe something you have an even better option:

I can't be bothered finding / reading through the blurb but I'm sure Apple lease / finance terms will offer you opportunities to upgrade your gear (and / or your spend) throughout the term of whatever contract you have - At the end of the term you can 'buy' your gear at a 'residual' price or renew the agreement and gear

I don't know how cost-efficient this would be for you ... but if you got 10k to splash around that would keep you in gear for a couple of years I'd imagine ...
 
csimmons said:
OK, but a 2nd generation MacBook Pro will likely have a 1st generation Merom chip, so following your logic, we should all wait for the 3rd generation before we buy...:p

I think that actually was the point being made - hence the "lol" just after the mention of the 1st gen Merom ...
 
power supply

I've been checking around lately on gateway and toshiba dual core notebooks, and battery life is estimated at 3 hours. Considering its a dual core, its really not that bad with double the performance.
 
MacFan782040 said:
Ehh...

Could have made it better. They had the opportunity to completely redesign the form, and they didn't. Would have been a good time to do it too. Oh well.

I'm starting to wonder about this Intel switch.

You're starting to wonder if speed increases of 2 -3X, to be followed by much greater ones in the future, are a bad idea because Apple has not chosen to combine them with form factor changes?

Interesting.
 
nxent said:
this whole intel thing... apple has a double edged sword. now apple hardware can be compared with PC hardware point for point... no Mhz myths to fall back on now.

Personally this is justification for all those fights I used to have with the blind Mac advocates/zealots on comp.sys.mac.advocacy who drank Steve's cool aid. Steve spends all this time telling us how great the PowerPC is and how much faster it is than Intel, all the "world's fastest personal computer" ads, etc. Now the chickens come home to roost and the truth is laid bare for all to see. Hmm, 4x faster? I guess the PPC wasn't so great after all.

In reality, the truth was always there if you were willing to look for it. The Spec2000 tests always told the story about raw processing power, yet they were NEVER quoted by Steve until now. We always got nonsense like Photoshop tests to prove the Mac was so great. However, the Spec2000 tests always laid it out, the PPC spent the majority of its lifetime behind the comparable Intel chips.

So, yes, Steve has one less layer of reality distortion in his toolbox. However, look at it this way... Microsoft's OS'es always bloat, bloat, bloat, get bigger and slower. It's like the Linux argument -- if OSX can wring more performance out of the same processor, it points out MS is doing something wrong.
 
I need a modem on a notebook it is a necessity for me on average I connect via modem with my ibook at least twice a week. Wireless access and High Speed internet connection is not available everywhere especially when your on the road. I also FAX via notebook but that's rare and I can find alternatives but still it's sad that I have to shell out another $50 for an external USB modem that is just one more thing to carry around and takes up uet another USB port.

I also need the S-Video output tack on another $20

Loosing FireWire 800 is no big deal for now but still if I ever do need one I'll have to spend more to add it and it will take up my expansion slot that would otherwise be open. We also only have three ports Open that are built in. Taking away that FW800 slot was IS loosing a port whether you use it or not because it is backward compatible with FW 400 and could be used as such. How much is an Express Card FW 400/800 or USB expansion card anyway?

Downgraded Optical drive is bad, some say well you can always upgrade later but why should I have to spend the extra money to get something that was standard in the previous model besides these notebook optical drives with Dual Layer Recording and 8X DVD write cost about $200 and I'm guessing upgrading won't be the easiest task.

All I can say about battery life is well...If it's not that bad why has Apple not published it yet? BTW I still haven't found out if MacBook Pro can Swap batteries in sleep mode like the PowerBook G4.

hmm.... at this rate I think I'll wait for next MacBook Pro revision.
 
brain21 said:
It *certainly* does not justify the huge jump in price! Too many people want the fastest CPU simply because it is the fastest. By how much, they don't care. In the end it really is for ego, personal gratification, & bragging rights. Big deal!

Not entirely, your argument is short sighted. I ordered the 1.8 GHz MBP. Why? When I buy a machine, I want the fastest available at the time because I expect longevity out of them. I know as time marches on the differences become small compared to the new hardware, but just for example, I have a 1 GHz Thinkpad that I paid extra for 5 years ago when I could have gotten a 700 or 800 MHz model. However, today a 1 GHz P3 running XP is just on the edge of usable, whereas a 7- or 800 MHz P3 is too slow for active use. When buying I consider what the delta in price for the best system is versus upgrading to an entirely new system that much sooner.

FWIW I'm not so sure about the 2.x GHz Yonah chips. IBM/Lenovo announced a new Thinkpad X60 at CES and I'd swear they had the 2.1 GHz chip, but their website today only lists the 1.67 and 1.83, same as Apple. So I think Intel may be backing off.

A dirty little secret of the chip manufacturing process, there really is no difference between a 1.67 and a 1.83 GHz processor of the same family. It's all in the mean time between failure when clocked at that rate. It just means the slower processor is more likely to fail when clocked at the higher rate so they sell it clocked slower. That's why overclocking works -- the chip CAN go faster but you decrease its lifetime and increase the chance of a failure.

So I'm guessing Intel planned to go as high as 2.1 GHz but maybe the MTBF is too high and they're backing off.

brain21 said:
8) Battery power - battery power is reported at 6 hours from what I've read. I imagine that being the best case scenario. I think 4-6 hours is probably a goot estimate when all is said and done. They are probably not hiding it, there is no great "it really has only 45 minutes of battery life, so lets just keep our mouths shut and ignore the issue" type of conspiracy going on at Apple. Since the MacBooks are not shipping till Feb. I would bet that have not yet done enough tests to make certain claims yet (you gotta test more than just one to get an accurate estimate). Calm down everyone. All is well.

I agree here; I was skeptical about the Yonah core, but again with IBM's X60 announcement at CES... The X60 is the ultraportable that replaces the X40, which I have. They are claiming a 30% increase in battery life X60 over X40, which already got 6-8 hours with the 8 cell battery. So apparently Yonah will do better than the last gen Pentium M did. Now IIRC the MacBook has a new battery type over the old PowerBook, HOPEFULLY this also means better battery life or why would they switch?

brain21 said:
9) No Modem - God, *who cares!?!* I know that some of you use dialup when travelling, etc.

Good riddance to the modem. The last two times I needed/had the opportunity to use a modem:

(1) In JFK waiting for a flight. Shockingly, no wi-fi access but they do have a dial-up bar. WTF? I have cable modem, I don't maintain a dial-up and the free ones like NetZero are gone. I desperately needed internet access, but who the heck do I call?

(2) In a Tokyo hotel that, shockingly, also did not have wi-fi access. They had dial up, but again, who am I going to call, let alone on the international phone bill?

brain21 said:
10) iSight & security - This is just silly. If you are in a sensitive area, esp. where an iSight could constitute a breach of that security, the simple fact that the laptop has Wifi is a FAR greater risk. Furthermore most places that have that kind of security (DoD, DoE, CIA, etc., etc.) won't let you bring the device in, period. I have been to the DoE visting. Neither myself nor any employees there are allowed to bring in laptops, cell phones, USB thumb drives, etc. And I can't get much further than the lobby! :)

Exactly... I know several people who worked for Lockheed Martin. You come in to your workspace scrubbed clean. They won't even LET you bring a personal machine, iSight or not.

On the other hand, maybe someone is worred about people with MacBooks in the bathroom, or looking up skirts in public...
 
Little Endian said:
I need a modem on a notebook it is a necessity for me on average I connect via modem with my ibook at least twice a week. Wireless access and High Speed internet connection is not available everywhere especially when your on the road. I also FAX via notebook but that's rare and I can find alternatives but still it's sad that I have to shell out another $50 for an external USB modem that is just one more thing to carry around and takes up uet another USB port.

I also need the S-Video output tack on another $20

Loosing FireWire 800 is no big deal for now but still if I ever do need one I'll have to spend more to add it and it will take up my expansion slot that would otherwise be open. We also only have three ports Open that are built in. Taking away that FW800 slot was IS loosing a port whether you use it or not because it is backward compatible with FW 400 and could be used as such. How much is an Express Card FW 400/800 or USB expansion card anyway?

Downgraded Optical drive is bad, some say well you can always upgrade later but why should I have to spend the extra money to get something that was standard in the previous model besides these notebook optical drives with Dual Layer Recording and 8X DVD write cost about $200 and I'm guessing upgrading won't be the easiest task.

All I can say about battery life is well...If it's not that bad why has Apple not published it yet? BTW I still haven't found out if MacBook Pro can Swap batteries in sleep mode like the PowerBook G4.

hmm.... at this rate I think I'll wait for next MacBook Pro revision.

well if you don't like it, you shouldn't buy one. And you seem to be saying you don't like it and and won't be buying one. So... good decision! (for you)

Now, here's another way to look at it.

You can buy a 15" PB G4 today. Or, for only $70 more you can buy a 15" MBP plus DVI-S-video cable and USB modem. For that extra $70 you get a system that is slimmer, has a much nicer screen, has waaaaaay better graphics capability, is significantly faster, includes an iSight ($150 to buy separately), plus the apple remote (cost $ to buy separately - and you can ebay this if you won't want it), and is SATA internally and has a 2.5Gb/s interface with expresscard/34 for all sorts of near term possibilities.

Your call. Get the PB G4, or pay an extra $70 and get the MBP.
 
Randall said:
...blablabla... (Some obnoxiously worded and unsubstantiated point of view) ... blablabla...
ZorPrime said:
Maybe for you. (...)

Off topic:

I got myself an MR account for the sole reason that I can filter Randall, and man do I need it, judging from all your quotes.

Guys, I appreciate the effort, but would you please just stop trying to set this foghorn straight. It's clearly futile.
 
Chupa Chupa said:
Funny how Apple can't but Acer can. (Their Core Duo lappy with 1" case ht. has a DL drive. Makes you go hmmm... :confused:

Acer's homepage has its dimensions as "364 (W) x271 (D) x 26.3 - 38 (H) mm".

So the thing's wedge-shaped and actually 1.5 inches thick at the rear. Also looks it judging from the photos of it.
 
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