iPod More Microsoft Zune BS, Secret Goal=Make Ipod Cost More

[bgai]

Universal should pay US money!

What do you think Universal uses to make all of their money?

WE make their computers
WE make their recording devices
WE make their websites
WE mop their floor at night so they can focus on stealing money from us everyday.


So doesn't that mean their success at stealing money is largely due to our hard work? C'mon Universal, the floor is so clean you can eat off of it. Now give me my 50% cut from your dirty business!

 

[howard]

NO way could it be 10 bucks per Zune. More like cents (like audio cassettes used to be) but then they will haver to give a cut to EVERY FRIGGEN LABEL. How does that work and why? The Labels make money when the songs sell. Bad precedent to give a cut of the hardware too.

yeah..right? good point, is just universal getting $?? what about other labels?

 

[robbyx]

But I guess $12 for a cd is way overpriced for everyone now.

While I do think the labels are greedy and hostile towards consumers, I don't think CD pricing is the problem. You buy a CD for $12 and get to enjoy it for years and years. If you listen to an album 100 times, each listen has only cost you a mere $0.12. Listen a thousand times...and you get the point.

Or, you can spend the same $12 on a fancy cocktail or dinner entree (you're lucky if $12 buys you an entree!)...and it's gone in no time.

I'm sick and tired of people saying that price is the problem. It's not. It's crap. Everything sounds the same. Everything is so over-produced to the point of being utterly dull and lifeless. And the labels are resorting to suing kids instead of addressing problems. All of this makes people angry and less likely to support the industry.

Give us quality music and a GOOD ATTITUDE towards the consumer, and maybe things will turn around.

 

[mlprater]

illegal monopoly money

Microsoft is using what should be illegal monopoly money to pay to enter into a market where they will no doubt provide an inferior product.

I love it.

 

[Maccus Aurelius]

these music industry problems have been discussed to death, because theres no right or wrong answer here.

at least now, as an artist, we have options. we can get our music heard if we are not on a label, and if we want to just make money we can do that with a label.

90% of records might not make back the money it took to make them but whose problem is that? certainly not the consumers. Its not our problem if the record industry is pumping money into crap.

the record company has no business taking a cut of a product they had nothing to do with creating.

Amen.

 

[howard]

Does anybody remember the "MADE IN ITUNES" section that showed up in other countries?

I would love it if itunes become a music distributor, or as someone else mentioned, if someone made DRM that anyone can implement easily.

artists could make so much more money for themselves. that way they could produce their own records the way they want, rather than the record industry having its way with them.

 

[nemaslov]

Still buy CDs

So here is what I do...I still LOVE to own the music (or so it may seem) and buy the CD. So I pay 12-14 bucks for a CD sometime less. I load the music into iTunes. NO limitations. Can take anywhere, burn (for myself) unlimited times. If my computer or backup drive crashes I STILL have the CD with all of the artwork...

OK I am lucky enough to live in San Francisco which has one of the best Record Stores in the world AMOEBE. So if I really don't like the CD or tired of it or just want to trade it in, I can there. So maybe I get 3 or 4 bucks back or in trade towards new CDs. So now my net cost for a new album is 8 to 10 bucks (5-7 if it is used). That is CHEAPER than downloading the album on iTunes or anywhere else. Again a better deal with the best possible quality and NO limitations.

Now granted if I only want one or two cuts, downloading makes sense but for an entire new (or old ) album? I think not..

And the labels still want to jack up the online cost

 

[JAT]

I'm sick and tired of people saying that price is the problem. It's not. It's crap. Everything sounds the same. Everything is so over-produced to the point of being utterly dull and lifeless. And the labels are resorting to suing kids instead of addressing problems. All of this makes people angry and less likely to support the industry.

Give us quality music and a GOOD ATTITUDE towards the consumer, and maybe things will turn around.

Price has been a problem. It has come down a bit, and isn't so much right now. Part of the reason CDs all sound the same is also the technology. CD sucks. Unfortunately, not enough people actually care about quality sound or quality music.

 

[weev]

Micro-samesamebutdifferent-soft

"'We felt that any business that's built on the bedrock of music we should share in,' said Doug Morris, chief executive of Universal, owned by French media giant Vivendi," Adegoke reports. "He did not disclose the amount of the fee for the Zune, which launches next Tuesday."

That is such BS! No one in business does this sort of thing without a financial reason. The reason is that by signing more lucurative deals with the music companies Microsoft hopes that it will encourage Music labels to pressure Apple to do likewise thus cutting into their profitability.

Microsoft can't win on innovation, product design, or value, so they will throw money at the problem hoping to hurt their competition and make it easier for them to gain a foothold to sell their crap.

This has nothing to do with music, and everything to do with the threat OS X is to Windows. Apple's resurragance is being fueled by the success of the iPod, hurt that and you cripple it's halo affect. The problem is that it may already be too late. Apple's market share will soon cross double digits, Vista will be a failure, and the demise of Microsoft will be more openly discussed.

Totally agree with you here.

Remember, these record producers (they still call themselvse that) live in big houses and snort high-grade coke. They will say and do anything to maintain their privileged lifestyles, and Micro-samesamebutdifferent-soft is also desparate too.

I have never really despised a record company, but Universal is gonna top the list.

And Zune will fail, I mean who really gives a stuff, it will have advertising hoopla around it but who needs one. The iPod is the Walkman of its day, and deserves its place in the sun until something completely better comes along, and that something wont be from M$.

 

[Iron_Chef]

MSFT idiots.

why not offer them a piece of the your OS revenues too?

 

[shamino]

I have several friends who write/perform music for a living. None are signed to major labels.

They rehearse in home studios and rent a proper studio (with engineer) for the hour or two it takes to record the final results. They pay for their own CD publication and sell discs at their concerts (and at the band's web site.) They also offer tracks on iTunes.

Concerts are usually local and are usually low-budget. The band goes home at night. They transport their own equipment in their own cars/vans/SUVs. The fans don't complain about the budget - the music is good and they go home happy. They also buy a lot of CDs.

These friends will never get rich. They make enough to just barely get by, and live OK when combined with a day job. But this is still more income than a band signed to a major label gets. (Almost nobody becomes a mega-star, and even the mega-stars often end up massively in debt, thanks to record label contracts.)

But the icing on the cake here is that they have no multi-album contracts to fulfill, they aren't in debt to any label, they own their own copyrights, and no outsiders can force unwanted creative input on them. This is priceless.

 

[szark]

I agree with some of the other posters here -- this is a negotiating tactic which is doomed to failure.

Think of all the wonderful artists we’ll never hear about because no one can afford to take the risk today…

Let's see...based on this source, UMG earned net incomes of:

$912.6 million -- 2003
$705.7 million -- 2004
$609.4 million -- 2005

...so their business does seem to be shrinking, but it looks to me like they could afford to take a couple of risks.

This article by producer Steve Albini helps to dispel that myth.

Very nice article. Really gives a nice perspective to this discussion, and reminds me of this speech given by Courtney Love.

 

[shamino]

OK I am lucky enough to live in San Francisco which has one of the best Record Stores in the world AMOEBE. So if I really don't like the CD or tired of it or just want to trade it in, I can there. So maybe I get 3 or 4 bucks back or in trade towards new CDs. So now my net cost for a new album is 8 to 10 bucks (5-7 if it is used). That is CHEAPER than downloading the album on iTunes or anywhere else. Again a better deal with the best possible quality and NO limitations.

You don't have to live in SF for this either. Used record stores exist everywhere.

And depending on what you like to buy, music clubs, like BMG, can give you very good deals. BMG's prices are officially MSRP ($19 per disc, plus about $3.50 for shipping, handling, and taxes.) But there are always special offers that drastically lower the price. For instance, this month's offer is "buy 1 get 4 free". So I pay $36.50 ($19 for one disc, plus shipping on all 5) for 5 discs - an average cost of $7.30 per disc.

Of course, you have to be able to be able to buy five albums at once in order to take advantage of the deal. Otherwise, it isn't nearly as nice.

And yes, I'm aware that this beats the iTunes prices. When buying whole albums, you can almost always beat iTunes. iTunes's big advantage is when you only want to buy a single, or if you can't find the tracks anywhere else (as is often the case for some indy bands.)

 

[Groovey]

Praise vinyl...

 

[Foxer]

So, with the number of Zunes that will actually be sold, they're on the hook for, what, 30 bucks?

 

[Flunki]

So I pay $36.50 ($19 for one disc, plus shipping on all 5) for 5 discs - an average cost of $7.30 per disc.

Wow, that's cheap. In Europe you have to pay up to 20€ (about $25) for a new album. I almost completely stopped buying CDs because most of the music is just not worth it.


And there already is a "music-tax" on every device that can copy or play copied music here. That means you pay them money every time you buy a computer, DVD burner, iPod or whatever. However, you are not allowed to actually use it for copying CDs

 

[howard]

Praise vinyl...

yeah,

there was a comic i saw somewhere that mentioned how vinyl is a high-fi drm proof music storage media. wish I could find that...

I wish vinyl was more common. I'd pay a lot for a vinyl album with some sort of pass to download mp3s of it online for my portable listening.

 

[SRSound]

Hahahaha I leave for a couple hours and look what happens! Let's see here

Business, Law, and Music? What about TECHNOLOGY?!!! The labels just don't get it. The only solution is technology. Here's what they need to:

CONTROL THE FORMAT!!!

The big five need to put their heads together and develop a DRM format. Don't get greedy, but allow anyone --- from the iTunes Music Store to some guy in his basement --- to sell tracks protected by DRM.

Let anyone --- hardware company, software company, content creator ---license the DRM technology for free.

Make the DRM interoperable so that we don't have a player war and so that for once the consumer actually benefits.

By creating a standard format and DRM technology, everyone benefits. I can buy songs online and not worry about whether or not they will play on my iPod as well as my phone or stereo or whatever. I can buy a new device and not worry about losing all of the music I've bought. That's why I still buy CDs. Music from the iTunes Music Store won't play on my SlimDevices SqueezeBox. Too many formats and incompatible products just make consumers angry - and that leads to piracy.

If the industry came up with its own format and said "Apple, Microsoft, Creative...and everyone else out there...if you want to sell music online, you have to implement our format", the tech companies would have no choice but to adopt the format. They'd hate losing control, but what choice would they have? Not sell music? Have no content for their devices?

The industry needs to stop outsourcing bad technology (Sony's copy-protected CDs...ugh!) and start rolling its own. The landscape has changed and, like it or not, content companies are going to HAVE to become tech companies too. Start now, create a fair DRM system shared by all major labels and open to anyone, and give away the DRM technology to anyone wishing to implement it.

But I'm sure all of the Business, Law, and Music wonks will simply suggest more lawsuits, more greedy deals like the one between Micro$oft and UMG, and more hardship for the consumer.

I've been in the tech industry for a long time. I (fondly) remember the days of "cracked" games on my Apple II. The simple fact of the matter is, piracy cannot be stopped. There's always someone who is one step ahead. It's a fruitless battle. So you must make it easier for the consumer to not become a pirate. Apple has done this with the iTMS to a limited degree. However, if the industry truly wants to address this issue, it will innovate, not litigate, it will think outside the box, not make stupid deals like the one between UMG and M$.

The industry needs to work together...or it's Hello BitTorrent!

A wonderful sentiment, and I didn't even think of the tech side. If you have time to draft up some type of formal proposal, I will send it right out to Barnett and other parties who have expressed great concern. Believe me, they really DO want to find a solution that benefits everyone (YES including the artists AND consumers).

Fine then...Let's set up a contribution network. The artists have accounts created and we post payments _directly to them_. I have several ACDC Albums (yes albums) and CDs, and even some ITMS downloads, so I figure 1$ per album directly to the artist is probably a huge direct percentage...If this really is about the artists then fine...to hell with the record companies, they already got their money from the agreements with $bands.

Same to you, draft up a proposal and I’ll see to it that it’s forwarded to the powers that be.

Nice sentiment, and I understand that p2p piracy can play a part in this. Two things, though. First, to outright say that every player contains unpaid-for music is insulting and offensive to those of us who get our music legally. Secondly, with the Zune offering "beaming" or whatever it is for music sharing, how is it that this feature isn't being viewed as piracy? They're the ones allowing p2p sharing and so they're the ones paying the "fee". They didn't raise the price of the Zune, so whoever buys them (who's going to anyway?) won't be paying any more. As for setting a precident, Apple doesn't facilitate p2p sharing and so why should they even consider paying this "fee".

I’m sorry I didn’t clarify – I agree entirely; my post was simply to bring light to the fact that piracy is a much deeper issue then most realize. I think beaming maintains the DRM information and sets limits on it’s use (like 3 listens or something), but I really don’t know.

After reading your post - I believe you, I'm sure the costs of producing an album are insane, but the music industry is greedy. The problem is the industry is still operating on an "antiquated" business strategy. Back in the 50's & 60's yes, you HAD to have a manager, get signed up with a big label, cut an album, tour and start all over.... I know that studio time can be rediculously expensive... BUT.....

Today is totally different. Bands can do a lot of the "studio work" on their own for a lot less money. That's what has fueled the indy movement.... garage bands that can make an album and sell their own tracks online and pocket their own money.... They don't need to pay huge sums for marketing, since they market through online channels and have access to way more people, and get their sound out to a huge audience....

So the recording industry probably is losing money every year. But high CD prices for years, 13-year- old-suing shananegans, and their attempt to force Apple to raise iTunes prices on tracks that Apple bears all of the distribution costs for - they have dug their own grave and no one cares that big-wig music exes won't be able to get a $400k bonus this year.

All the bands have to do is cut out the labels, and sell directly through iTunes (or their own sites).

While bands can (and do) a lot of home recording, radio’s and record printing companies have strict standards (red book standards) that not a lot of “home equipment” can adhere to. That’s besides the fact that engineering and production is an art just like playing the actual instruments and requires a great deal of skill and specialization to produce quality results. It’s true that someone can go out to a store and buy a multi-track computer interface that records 24bit/96KHz for near $200, BUT without a talented engineer/producer, it’s not gonna get you too far. As for bands cutting out the labels to sell directly to retailers, it costs a small fortune to print production quantities of a record, and it’s the labels who cover that cost. Labels also have deals with many resellers (like Tower Records, before they went out of business) where they can get their products stocked for a cheaper stocking fee. Most importantly though, if bands cut out the labels, who’s going to book their tours? Many venues REQUIRE a contract with a label in order to host a band. Cut out the labels and they’re outta luck in the vast majority of American venues. I think ClearChannel had something to do with that while they still owned all those venues…

Piracy is not the reason record sales are going down, most people who download music download because they cannot afford the music, if it were never possible to download music, it does not mean they would suddenly have the money to buy the music... they just wouldnt be able to buy it or download it...

If anything, the music industries reaction to music downloads has caused people to realize how greedy they are and decide "screw you im not paying for your overpriced CD's", and caused music piracy to happen more and more.

Cry me a river, this is called competition, the artists are getting smart enough to realize they dont need the record companies.

actually, if an artist is truly wonderful, they dont need a record company to get their music out, as i stated in my previous post, free music downloads are free advertising... More and more artists are encouraging people to download their music for free, it gets the word out... Some of my favorite bands would not be arround today if it werent for free music downloads...

First of all, the RIAA has gone about this terribly – I agree. No doubt you heard about when they sued the dead man, or the woman who never used a computer once in her life. But the RIAA really can’t be associated with the REAL music industry – the fact that not a penny of their settlement money has gone to any artist or label is proof of that.

But if you think those bands are going to last supporting themselves, think again. No more then 20 years ago, being a musician – an entertainer – was a lifelong career. An artist would make the choice to pursue their passion and that would be what they did. Today, without the support of labels and advertising and tour booking agencies, good luck staying in the public eye for more then 4 years. Sure I can upload master tracks to iTunes or myspace for a band, but that’s simply not enough to sustain them.

citation, please.

The A&R man is extinct; the record industry, which was only born of an artificial scarcity, is collapsing under it's own weight. The record execs can go hang out with the buggy-whip manufacturers and we'll all be just fine.

Right back at you. But the A&R man isn’t extinct. They're just being not taking risks like they used to because of financial limitations.

Praise vinyl...

Agreed.

 

[emotion]

Praise vinyl...

All my music (about £50 a week on average) is bought on vinyl.

 

[Rocketman]

I own an independent music production company. Some of our music is sure to be played on Zune. I want a cut proportional to our market share too.

Universal is not the only music producer on the planet.

Rocketman

 

[balamw]

While bands can (and do) a lot of home recording, radio’s and record printing companies have strict standards (red book standards) that not a lot of “home equipment” can adhere to.

?!? (This is not really on topic, but my curiosity is piqued).

I thought that Red Book refers to the CDDA standard, and the only relevant standards are 16 bit 44.1 kHz stereo PCM.

I presume that most studios, home or not, typically do 24 bit with a higher sampling rate pretty routinely.

B

 

[Groovey]

yeah,

there was a comic i saw somewhere that mentioned how vinyl is a high-fi drm proof music storage media. wish I could find that...

I wish vinyl was more common. I'd pay a lot for a vinyl album with some sort of pass to download mp3s of it online for my portable listening.

Cool! If you find it, please send it to me too. It sure is hi-fi. With about 60-70€ people could get a nicely working second hand turntable and a new cartridge which together would blow their cd's out of the shelf. And no unjustified bribe-style-royalties are passed. I think we all would love to have more content, less corporate capitalism. (It's not mobile though )

 

[sweet160]

what a bunch of loser,
looosers
loohoooseeheers!!!

 

[dvdh]

Is this not a big risk for microsoft to take?

If for example, I was a rival label and not so happy that I was not getting a cut from microsoft, what would prevent me from going out of my way to prevent my music from being played on a Zune (or WiMP for that matter). While it might be tough to prevent people from ripping CDs to play on their player, downloads could certainly be DRMed 'antiZune' or for that matter the an end user agreement for the purchase of the music could limit it use on 'music players supported by business engaging in aggresive and unethical anti competition strategies'. If this happened soon enough, the potential sales losses would be minimal, as the market intrusion of the player could be crippled.

I would hate to see it come to something like this (personally I would like Apple to open things up a little too), but when you are dealing with such questionable business practices, sometimes the only option is to fight back with the same low blows.

Of course the simplest solution (and probably the best) would be to raised awareness to the un-fairness of this practice and target a boycott at Universal and Microsoft. As it is, that strategy would take much adjustment for my part.

 

[MikeTheC]

Nah, I want my vinyl portable.

I say we get these recording studio people and have them carry around the turntable box plus the car-sized lead acid battery to drive it, I guess they could carry the receiver on their back...

Just make sure to use a loooooooong headphone cord because they can really stink up the place.

Oh, and nice comment about Microsoft sharing their OS profits. They really should do that, you know; and that would be two groups of people by my reckoning:

1. The companies that manufacture the individual components which, when assembled together, run the OS and all that lovely Win32 code.
2. The companies that then take the manufactured subsystems and build whole computers from them.

Yup, I think that should about cover it.