More on Booting Windows on the Intel Mac?

[pgwalsh]

This whole thread is turning into an OS flame war. I thought the point of it would be to discuss the new Mactel's EFI and how to get other x86 based OSes booting off it. I guess I missed the point...

Exactly.

I'm sure someone will get a version of windows running sometime if for no other reason than notoriety. Then the next big thing will be to have OS X run on non Apple hardware. I'm perfectly aware that 10.4.3 version are, but what about 10.4.4?

 

[VetteMan]

Kudos to you for stick with an old machine!

I think you have a great piont on running windows natively or emulation at a decent speed. Hopefully will have both options which I think is the best of both worlds.

Thanks! Funny thing is, this old PB can run circles around my aunt's 1yo Toshiba notebook and my uncle's 3yo Compaq desktop doing basic web browsing and email - average user-level things. Both running XP. Heaven help them if they try using somthing like PhotoShop that my Mac runs just fine - v7.0 is pushing it but still very usable. This is exactly the reason I have a Mac.

Running Windows on a Mac would be a godsend. I have a few friends that have seen what I can do with this old PB and are amazed with the power of OSX. The only problem is that they have to use some Windows only apps - mapping software mainly. If Mac could emulate this software at reasonable speeds, Apple would have a few extra converts.

Many people really love the interface and stability of OSX but they can't live without some of the business apps only available for Windows. Not everyone cares about gaming. If I cared about gaming I would by an Xbox, PS2, etc.

 

[arn]

This is why I recoil in horror at the thought of Windows on a Mac. It's that simple. I think there is an elegance to the Mac and its operating system that are just.... right. I guess I want other people to share in that experience. Someone buying a Mac for the first time would do themselves and the Mac a disservice by putting Windows on it.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

The same person who you don't want to buy a Mac and load Windows on it, would never buy a Mac if it didn't boot windows.

The bottom line is which of these would you prefer:

a) Have someone buy a Mac and try Mac OS X alongside windows
b) Have that person not buy a Mac and instead buy a generic PC and keep using windows

arn

 

[Scottyk9]

This whole thread is turning into an OS flame war. I thought the point of it would be to discuss the new Mactel's EFI and how to get other x86 based OSes booting off it. I guess I missed the point...

I hear you... I was hoping to find out more details, but instead waded through personal opinions and biases. I just want to be able to use the one (yes only one) piece of software that only runs under windows, and would like to be able to run it faster that I currently can (i.e. under VPC).

Perhaps we should have separate threads - one the moral / ethical / personal opinion / venting / airing of personal agendas, and a second for useful, technical information on using windows apps on intel Macs.

 

[pgwalsh]

Thanks! Funny thing is, this old PB can run circles around my aunt's 1yo Toshiba notebook and my uncle's 3yo Compaq desktop doing basic web browsing and email - average user-level things. Both running XP. Heaven help them if they try using somthing like PhotoShop that my Mac runs just fine - v7.0 is pushing it but still very usable. This is exactly the reason I have a Mac.

Running Windows on a Mac would be a godsend. I have a few friends that have seen what I can do with this old PB and are amazed with the power of OSX. The only problem is that they have to use some Windows only apps - mapping software mainly. If Mac could emulate this software at reasonable speeds, Apple would have a few extra converts.

Many people really love the interface and stability of OSX but they can't live without some of the business apps only available for Windows. Not everyone cares about gaming. If I cared about gaming I would by an Xbox, PS2, etc.

I totally understand that. I currently running a powerbook with 1.5 ghz ppc and love it. VPC is a little too slow for my tastes, but it does allow me to get certain things done.

I just converted a friend over a few months ago who has an iMac G5. She's totally happy, but ran into one problem. The intuit accounting site that allow collaboration only works with Internet Explorer for Windows. So she still fiddles with her PC until she gets everything converted to QuickBooks.

I'm suprised that Intuit would build a web based applicaiton that only works with PC's. I'm of the theory that web based applications should work with any OS that has a mondern browser. IMO it's serious shortcoming, but another reason why dual booting or emulation at native speeds is necessary.

I'm excited to see what develops through third parties.

 

[maverick808]

All these people trashing the idea of putting windows on a mac need to zip it. Real computer users need windows. Its not the operating systems folks, its the apps and "THE APPS" that some of us NEED are not built for OSX. OSX threading for database apps SUCKS. This is why Databases and servers are a windows world kids. Don't give me a bunch of junk about how oracle works on osx, it doesn't.

While I agree there are many Windows apps that don't have equivalents on OS X your example of databases and servers is a REALLY poor choice. The vast majority of servers which drive the Internet run Unix not Windows. Same with databases, most big database farms are running on Unix servers.

Oracle isn't only out for Windows, it runs on Unix too. And the other major databases like mySQL and Postgres have far more support on Unix than they do on Windows.

Same with servers. IIS is a really poor choice for a web server in my opinion. A far better choice is Apache.

All of these things do run on OS X.

Again, I'm not saying that there aren't apps which only run in Windows... just saying the choice of databases and servers as an example is a poor one. In particular, this...

This is why Databases and servers are a windows world kids

...is a complete fallacy.

 

[MacTruck]

Perhaps we should have separate threads - one the moral / ethical / personal opinion / venting / airing of personal agendas, and a second for useful, technical information on using windows apps on intel Macs.

The fact is there is no information on running windows on an intel mac because its not possible unless someone writes an efi firmware for the mac and nobody is going to swap out their efi firmware on their mac for a hacked one. Just forget about running windows natively on an intel mac for now. Apple will come around when they realize sales are slipping. The power of the dollar $$$ is the only thinkg that will change Steves mind. He could care less about the mac revolution nowadays.

 

[stealthboy]

Yes, you are wrong!

There, Im glad I could solve this with such an easy answer.

Cool! Thanks. Whew, now this thread is done. That *was* easy! ;-)

 

[SiliconAddict]

I totally agree with you on the rest of your post but seriously, as a professional Admin you are not the typical user and your security record is unrealistic to the great unwashed masses.

True. However I've found a good AV\spyware package that auto updates takes care of 90% of those problems. Windows update enable fills in another 7%. And a firewall the remaining 3%. Am I claiming that this is the cure-all for Windows? Hardly. Am I claiming that clueless users are in rock solid protection? As if. I'm well aware that OS X from a user standpoint is much more locked down then Windows. That was never my point. My main point right now I guess is that for the foreseeable future anyone who is technically minded enough to setup a Mac to dual boot is going to be smart enough to install SP2 which will turn on auto updates and the firewall and they should be smart enough to load an AV package.

Note: OK. I'm done. Back to REM or EMI, EFI or whatever.

PPS- Yes I'm away my very existence in this post may be wiped out at any second by an Agent of MR.

But what needed to be said was said.

 

[MacTruck]

While I agree there are many Windows apps that don't have equivalents on OS X your example of databases and servers is a REALLY poor choice. The vast majority of servers which drive the Internet run Unix not Windows. Same with databases, most big database farms are running on Unix servers.

Oracle isn't only out for Windows, it runs on Unix too. And the other major databases like mySQL and Postgres have far more support on Unix than they do on Windows.

Same with servers. IIS is a really poor choice for a web server in my opinion. A far better choice is Apache.

All of these things do run on OS X.

Again, I'm not saying that there aren't apps which only run in Windows... just saying the choice of databases and servers as an example is a poor one.

You are wrong. OSX is not unix. It has unix underpinnings. You can't run unix version on osx successfully. You are just talking out of your... you know. I have worked for some of the largest corporations in the world. Some of those corps love the Mac but can't use them because of this problem. I know what I'm talking about. Call up Oracle for support and tell them that you are having trouble with Oracle on OSX. They will laugh you off the phone at a rate of $275 an hr.

 

[mark88]

I work on an XP workstation all day from Home. I simply have to because OS X doesn't run the applications I have to use. I like many, dislike Windows a huge amount.

Ideally I would like to use XP for work and OS X as my personal computer. At the moment everything is on my XP machine because I use it most and it's conveinient.

By having windows XP within a Virtual PC enviroment on an Intel Mac solves all of my troubles. When I need to work, XP sits within a window on my OS X desktop running at full speed, when I need to do something a bit more fun OS X is a click away.

Much more excited about virtual PC than I am about dual booting.

 

[BlizzardBomb]

I would never ever dream of putting that discusting operating system called Windows on my Mac.

If Windows was really that bad, no-one would use it. Many people need it for the large library of software, regardless of whether they like it or not.

I just have to ask.... WHY?

Why in the world would someone want to buy a Mac just to put Windows on it? It's like buying a new sportscar and putting a 3-cylinder econo-engine in it. Honestly, if you want to play your precious computer games, just keep your cheap-o Dell.

Buy a Mac to *get away from the Windows world*. You'll never look back.

I can't believe people are so intent on pursuing this. It really is a travesty. The Mac experience is the combination of hardware and software, and the brilliant design in both. Am I the only one who sees this? Is the world going mad?

I think you're missing the point. People aren't doing this for fun, people want just one computer where they can run both Windows and Mac OS. We aren't being forced to put Windows on to Macs, it is simply there as an option for people... and its going to be a popular option too.

 

[shawnce]

But do you really believe that will be a big percentage of computer buyers?

And do you believe it will be SO big that it will surpass the number of new Mac buyers who DO use Mac OS X and OS X apps?

Because unless both of those things are true, OS X usage will increase, and Mac developers' sales will increase.

There are three BIG reasons why Mac users will NOT be willing--on a large scale--to settle for running Windows on their Macs instead of demanding a Mac-native app.

You forgot a 4th reason... Apple wont support the hardware when you are using Windows, they wont prevent you from using Windows but they wont support you when you do.

 

[MacTruck]

You forgot a 4th reason... Apple wont support the hardware when you are using Windows, they wont prevent you from using Windows but they wont support you when you do.

Ok, now that is just stupid. Apple won't fix a blown out screen because you put XP on it? I don't think so. Thats something sony does though.

 

[pgwalsh]

The fact is there is no information on running windows on an intel mac because its not possible unless someone writes an efi firmware for the mac and nobody is going to swap out their efi firmware on their mac for a hacked one. Just forget about running windows natively on an intel mac for now. Apple will come around when they realize sales are slipping. The power of the dollar $$$ is the only thinkg that will change Steves mind. He could care less about the mac revolution nowadays.

There are some versions of windows with EFI. http://guides.macrumors.com/EFI

 

[jrhone]

It will NEVER happen, at least not supported by Apple....

Here is why.....SUPPORT. The amount of resources it would take to support Windows on the Mac hardware would be immense. The training of current support staff to now deal with WINDOWS ISSUES. The amount of time and energy solving windows based problems would greatly outweight the benefits. The amount of people trying to connect various devices and they are not working correctly, the amount of people getting strange errors, the flood of calls would be a nightmare. The only thing they could do to try and make more money would be to cater the machine MORE to windows for less problems, and now you are just giving microsoft more machines to run THEIR software on, and you have to do the hardware trch support. What you will see is a very good native speed emulator.

 

[Scottyk9]

I work on an XP workstation all day from Home. I simply have to because OS X doesn't run the applications I have to use. I like many, dislike Windows a huge amount.

Ideally I would like to use XP for work and OS X as my personal computer. At the moment everything is on my XP machine because I use it most and it's conveinient.

By having windows XP within a Virtual PC enviroment on an Intel Mac solves all of my troubles. When I need to work, XP sits within a window on my OS X desktop running at full speed, when I need to do something a bit more fun OS X is a click away.

Much more excited about virtual PC than I am about dual booting.

YES!!!!

 

[maverick808]

You are wrong. OSX is not unix. It has unix underpinnings. You can't run unix version on osx successfully. You are just talking out of your... you know. I have worked for some of the largest corporations in the world. Some of those corps love the Mac but can't use them because of this problem. I know what I'm talking about. Call up Oracle for support and tell them that you are having trouble with Oracle on OSX. They will laugh you off the phone at a rate of $275 an hr.

I am not wrong. Right now at this very moment I have Postgres with PostGIS, MySQL, PHP and Apache all running on my PowerBook.

Oh, and by the way, it's funny how Oracle themselves disagree with you on their webpage at http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/macos/index.html...

Oracle Database 10g and Oracle JDeveloper 10g are fully certified on Mac OS X. Turn your Mac into a full-fledged development environment and deploy Xserve-based grids using the software and resources on this page.

Oh, and unsurprisingly Apple disagree with you too http://www.apple.com/server/resources/oracle/

Here's some links to OS X versions of the other things I mentioned too...

PHP: http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/php/
MySQL: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/mac-os-x.html
PostGRES: http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/postgresql/

And again I state that your claim that...

This is why Databases and servers are a windows world kids

...is a fallacy. If anything database and servers are a Unix world KID.

 

[PtMD]

There are some versions of windows with EFI. http://guides.macrumors.com/EFI

Right. I still have hopes for vista. I am waiting on my MacBook Pro before I can start playing around with my copy of CTP 5270.

I wonder if the people having trouble are running into an installation media problem or one with MS's implementation of EFI. My guess is the media format isn't support *out of the box* on the hardware and there may be other options avaliable.

Sadly, I fear someone will take all the fun away and solve the riddle before my hardware arrives.

 

[Randall]

I hope that somebody somewhere can write a driver that supports ctrl+click as a right mouse click for Windows, otherwise you will need to be getting a USB mouse to go with your new Windows partition.

 

[MacTruck]

I am not wrong. Right now at this very moment I have Postgres with PostGIS, MySQL, PHP and Apache all running on my PowerBook.

Oh, and by the way, it's funny how Oracle themselves disagree with you on their webpage at http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/macos/index.html...



Oh, and unsurprisingly Apple disagree with you too http://www.apple.com/server/resources/oracle/

Here's some links to OS X versions of the other things I mentioned too...

PHP: http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/php/
MySQL: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/mac-os-x.html
PostGRES: http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/postgresql/

And again I state that your claim that...



...is a fallacy. If anything database and servers are a Unix world KID.

The crap you have on your mac is not enterprise stuff and Oracle on a mac is a novelty, it doesn't work the same. Like I said, threading on OSX SUCKS. Dude, do some real research.

 

[shawnce]

Like I said, threading on OSX SUCKS. Dude, do some real research.

Sucks for what is the important thing to keep in mind... each operating system is optimized for different usage models... so "suck" is very much relative and context sensitive.

 

[shawnce]

Ok, now that is just stupid. Apple won't fix a blown out screen because you put XP on it? I don't think so. Thats something sony does though.

I was talking in a much more generic sense then you took my statement....

No they will support hardware failures (with in reason... they may require use of Mac OS X to prove some types of hardware failures) but they will not support software issue or driver related issues (e.g. "why can't I connect my wireless network when running Windows").

 

[shawnce]

I hope that somebody somewhere can write a driver that supports ctrl+click as a right mouse click for Windows, otherwise you will need to be getting a USB mouse to go with your new Windows partition.

For MacBook Pros this would be an issue (only one mouse button) but for the iMac (and future Intel PowerMacs) it shouldn't be and issue given that they all ship with a Might Mouse now.

 

[PtMD]

The crap you have on your mac is not enterprise stuff and Oracle on a mac is a novelty, it doesn't work the same. Like I said, threading on OSX SUCKS. Dude, do some real research.

PostgreSQL == crap?

I would argue this point. I have been running PostgreSQL along side Oracle 10x and MSSQL for years (in a fortune 25 company), and I prefer using PostgreSQL whenever possible. More and more commercial product offerings are supporting it as a backend as well.

Next, Apache == crap?

LOL. That one is just toooo funny.

I admit php and mysql are no where near enterprise class, but come on, Apache? You do know how much of the internet (web) is running on Apache, right?