I thought this was funny considering your posts in the Safari thread.
No foul intended; I just got a laugh out of it.
Haha!
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More Shareholder Notes: SDK Hints, "Lots of" iPhone Apps, No Flash
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Haha!
Unless you know and understand what Flex is, then I don't think you can argue about whether Flash should be included or not.
If the SDK is released, there will be applications out for it in days, if not hours. They may suck, but they will be out. Unless Apple is going to restrict the distribution of applications, the SDK is not coming out on Thursday, at least not to the general public. Otherwise applications will be out in sooner than this summer. He could just be speaking in broad terms, and we are obsessing over every thing he says. But that would be so unlike Macrumors.
P6
If the SDK is released, there will be applications out for it in days, if not hours. They may suck, but they will be out. Unless Apple is going to restrict the distribution of applications, the SDK is not coming out on Thursday, at least not to the general public. Otherwise applications will be out in sooner than this summer. He could just be speaking in broad terms, and we are obsessing over every thing he says. But that would be so unlike Macrumors.
P6
Apple is obiviously integrating Microsoft Silverlight into the iPhone instead of Flash, don't you all see!
Who even uses silverlight???
Sure you can. You don't have to know what a manifold or turbocharger is in order to decide whether or not to get a car or decide between getting the diesel or the gasoline version either
Since when is regression "jumping ahead"?
They have no 3G. They claim it's because of it using too much juice but the only thing that tells me, is that they unlike other cell phone manufacturers - haven't been able to design a cell phone that can accomodate a bigger battery. But no, you're arguing that they're "jumping ahead" and that it's just because people are "afraid of new technology". Well, I'm sorry, but going back to what a "smart phone" could do five years or more ago isn't "being afraid".
Further, speaking of regression: The iPhone is incapable of sending and receiving MMS's, it's incapable of forwarding a SMS, incapable of sending an sms to multiple recipients, incapable of reading a anything not send to it by mail (woopy you cannot transfer a picture, pdf or anything, no, you have to mail it to yourself), you cannot read a -doc-document, you certainly cannot edit them and on and on.
Ah, but yes, "it's just because we fear this "new high tech device"
If a tool doesn't work in the real world as the world looks right now, it's not a tool, but a toy. It's useless the day you need one of the features not in the iPhone. No matter what, you have to use another device to work around the shortcomings, otherwise you're just stuck. And if you actually had some foresight and brought the capable device with you, why not just leave the iPhone at home?.
No, the cell phone life of an iPhone user is "making do" and coming up with workarounds and excuses. Why do you even try arguing that people should buy a product less capable than what they already have? Hell, most non-3G phones can do more work than that thing.
I'm sorry, but the blackberrys are much more of a practical tool than the iPhone. But, you do know, that there are very capable 3G phones out there, and that phones around here (EU) aren't crippled as the US-carriers do to the phones they sell you guys?
What's ironic, is that you're saying that blackberry and so on have tried making people conform, yet your entire argument is "The iPhone is not lacking in features The rest of the world just have to conform to the limited feature set of the iPhone".
Ah, well, the rest is just more of the same.
Easy there my friend, I am not arguing with you at all...i am discussing...please please please dont let this turn into anything other then a discussion.
First, I didnt bring up 3G but if you want to then I totally agree with you. We all know why it wasn't based on Steve's explanation (not mine) and for the time being we as users have accepted (adapted) the way it is. Apple realized and have made announcement that the 3G is on the way so really it's not even a subject to discuss...so the problem has been identified and will be addressed in the near future. Fair warning though, watch these threads when its released...we want WiMax, 3G is so slow on the iPhone, I can't get access...and the moans will go on.
Where in my thread did I say "afraid of new technology"? I stated that people were in a comfort zone with what was available but never stated anyone was afraid. I also never stated anything related to "regression", I did state that Apple was thinking about the future and doing things that were different. Just because one product has something that becomes a norm in everyday use does not mean that when another product comes out that does not have it, that its "regression" Where would our world be without people/companies taking risk and changing the value of the norm? I mean common, why is it such a popular product if it is missing so many "common usage tools"? SMS can be sent to mulitple recipients by the way.
To me and many many more, the iPhone is a great tool...I have never ever felt that I needed something else in my daily activities. It has never let me down and provided more then any other cell phone in my past. I was a previous Treo user and because of its very poor OS i still had to carry a PDA and I also carried an MP3 player because I could never hear anything on the Treo. Again, I state that obviously something is right about the iPhone as tool when it is still selling, CEO's want IT personnel to adapt it to their networks and the list goes on. I dont have to justify it, the media does it for me everyday. The TV shows/programs that have actors and actress's using it everyday as a tool, I mean the list goes on. I will grant that maybe for "you" it is not a good tool and for that I can not help you, but insenuating for all others is a little bit much.
Is there something wrong with current user's "making do and coming up with workarounds and excuses"? I think not, I think that they are adapting and accepting it for what it currently has to offer and look forward to the potential it has for the future...and really...excuses? I think that is a little much. Again, I am only trying to discuss here, I have no intention of "arguing" with you and if that is what you want to do then my discussion with you will end with this post. Honestly, no I cant say that anyone phone is better then the other...for each one develped and sold, it has a purpose and popularity. If users like it, then it stays on the market, if they dont then it dies and a new creation takes its place. If you like the Blackberry better and feel that it offers more then please by all means, use it for those needs. But the iPhone is still selling "the way it is" and the "average" user thinks its great for what it does and has the future potential to do. Not one part of its developement or sales models has caused it to die...yet. Could they have sold more...deffinetly. Did they make mistakes...more then likely. Do they care, probably not that much, since they are still setting records for the way it is or will be.
In regards to your last paragraph...it can be seen in your point of view or others can look at it in mine. I see the Blackberrys and Treo's being the same way they were 5 years ago and that is why alot of users expect new products to be the same way...because it is the norm and the way they have done things for so long, there has been no changes other then some minor software changes. It is your opinion that the iPhone is lacking features and again, I will not belittle that fact with the way you percieve the product. IMO it has every feature that I need and use. I have never used MMS, I do not need a GPS, I could care less about copy/paste or flash. I do not live in a 3G area. So for me and obviously, thousands of others that keep buying this product...its enough for us and not a broken tool. Alls I ask is that you approach the concept from various points of view intstead of being tunnel visioned...see it for not only what it is, but what it has the potential to become. Is your glass half empty or half full?
Last little reminder...I have been pleasent and started a discussion, If you want to argue or cut me down for my post, then this conversation is ended.
Have a great day!
Related to home server from the chat.
I am pro the idea of having the "server" version merged into the consumer OSX with 5 to 10 licenses. This is so people can create a server at home to handle file serving, print serving, ical sharing, etc.
The unlimited version at 999 is a good deal for unlimited situations like in a business.
The current 499 for 10 licenses is too much for the average user.
Besides providing services to a customer, it would also allow more people to study and become familair with the server version and may provide promotions at work for those that want to enter the area of system administration.
I do not think Apple would lose a lot if they did the merging. Also it cost them nothing to have it available if the user does not have any need for the feature, but it would be of great advantages to those that can use it.
I am pro the idea of having the "server" version merged into the consumer OSX with 5 to 10 licenses. This is so people can create a server at home to handle file serving, print serving, ical sharing, etc.
The unlimited version at 999 is a good deal for unlimited situations like in a business.
The current 499 for 10 licenses is too much for the average user.
Besides providing services to a customer, it would also allow more people to study and become familair with the server version and may provide promotions at work for those that want to enter the area of system administration.
I do not think Apple would lose a lot if they did the merging. Also it cost them nothing to have it available if the user does not have any need for the feature, but it would be of great advantages to those that can use it.
well, that's fine for you. but for a lot of us in the creative industry, i would guess that at least 50% of the sites i go to are flash based. that's a pretty large portion for me to cut out. so you don't need it, but a lot of us out there do.
I'm not. Don't worry. I'm "happy as a lark"
Haha, yes, but by the time the iPhone get's 3G everyone else will have moved to something faster. So by then, it'll still be behind the times …
LOL, but you're propably right, though.
YOu didn't state that verbatim. You just inferred it by stating over and over again that people weren't willing to adapt (implied: "to the future technology").
Yes, but you see, already here I disagree with the premise. Leaving things out and not deliver what others are delivering, aren't "doing things differently", it's pushing a product that are lacking. Yes, it has a great UI, but that's about it.
No, but it does when it's to this degree. It's about five years behind in features and web speed. The many features lacking such as just dropping a PDF or word document on it for later viewing, forwarding SMS, receiving MMS's, 3G-speeds, and so on, are features people use and, more importantly, rely on – and not just for play, but for work. It's not doing it "differently", it's "not doing it at all".
Why is McDonalds and Coke so popular if it's not excellent food/drink and very nutritous? The reason is, of course, marketing, peer pressure and fashion (well, you can call that last one "hype" instead, if you so choose).
Hmm, if you had a proper PDA, you wouldn't need the MP3-player, frankly. And I don't get why you needed to carry a PDA, but don't anymore? If you can do without the PDA because of the iPhone, then you never needed PDA-functions such as editing and reading documents dragged from your desks, for instance. Hell, even for audio editing. Or how about that file you stumbled upon and wanted to bring home with you from your friend? No, you have to mail it in order to "bring it home".
Let me repeat: Marketing, peer pressure, fashion, hype. That's why it "still" sells. Don't kid yourself, it's not a superior product. Well, the interface is really sweet. But without even the basics, it's certainly not superior. A smartphone that's not (at least) 3G? A phone that has no SD/miniSD/microSD-slot and cannot do drive mode? A smart phone that cannot read a word-doc? A smart phone that cannot pull up a document to read unless it has been mailed? A smart phone that can't even do stuff like forwarding a sms? Most of those are features that even non-smart phones have.
Frankly, yes. The longer and slower route is when you have to go to the back of the house, climb the walls, scatter up the roof, and jump down the chimney. Workaround are, per definition, the harder way to do things instead of doing them directly. And do I find it wrong with them accepting having to work around shorcomings? Well, yes I do. Because it's those people that make other people think this is the best thing since sliced bread. They are the reason people try arguing "it must be good, otherwise so many people wouldn't buy it" … And then we're back to peer pressure, hype, marketing and fashion.
I don't. I consider it an excuse, when people go "well, it might not be perfect now, but they must be working on something behind the scenes that is much better than (flash)", and "Well, it doesn't have 3G, but it's because 3G is a battery hog", completely ignoring that there are some very nice and slender 3G-phones out there already, and "when the world conforms this will be the best product out there".
Those things are excuses to me. Nothing more, nothing else.
Well, we have to argue our respective points, no?
You don't have to act (be?) so worried. It's all in good fun
You realise, that with that argument, you can dump _anything_ on the market, right? No matter how crap it is, and noone can say it's a piss poor product? What was that huge Palm-companion called? That one that looked like a small laptop, but had the power of a PDA? Even that one might have (had?) it's followers, but really: it's still a solution looking for a problem. A crap product in other words.
Don't fall into the flawed argument, that if something sells it must be good, and if it doesn't it must be crap. Granted, the Palm-thingy might not have sold much, but the same could be said about Macs 8-10 years ago. On the other hand, you cannot say that because it sells well it's good (or bad, because it sells well). The reason is, sales figures are nothing more than a "popularity" meter (discounting monopolies etc).
And since marketing, peer pressure and fashion plays such a big part in the modern world, you certainly cannot deduct anything from a huge company who is excellent at marketing their products, hyping their products, and have always been about "statement" (there's a very short distance from that to "fashion").
What's funny, they can _still_ do more than the iPhone, lol.
I never send MMS's either. However, I often receive one. Even on my private non-3G phone.
I do live in an "area" (Europe) where 3G is plenty of places, and in a country where it's everywhere (except for some local black holes). I have no need for GPS either (I didn't mention GPS, btw). But copy/paste (and flash) should be there.
Are you saying that you have no need for, say, tossing an office doc on it, copy/pasting some of it into an email, and shooting it off? You canhonestly say, that you never would use such a basic feature? Or how about that PDF someone has, that, unfortunately is 89 megs. So, in order for you to bring it home, you have to send it through email? It'd be much easier sending it to yourself on email?
I'm not tunnel-visioned at all. On the contrary, I see what features I need/use, what I might use, and what might be nifty. I can do with the latter, have to double check on the mights, and without the first ones, it's not good enough. Especially compared to the competition. All of them have the first, the second one precludes a third of the products, and the last one (nifty) basically comes down to "which one do I like the most – it could be the UI, it could also be a stripped down version without the camera – I hate cell phone cameras).
Ah, yes. So, I'll give you some iron ore and a bit of elm-wood. And when you then complain to me that you cannot fell those trees with the tools provided, I will tell you:
"Yes you can. You just have to move focus from what is is, to what it has potential to become".
Depends. If I'm filling it up from the tap it's half full (halfway to full). If I'm drinking from it, it's half empty (halfway to empty). In other words: It's not about pessimism or optimism, it's about being a realist and observant ;-)
As I said: Dont worry. It's just a discussion.
Likewise :-DHave a great day!
Here is a link to a good article on the "Flash" issue. It should answer alot of questions about the whyfor's and artthou's. Sorry I am unable to help the nay sayers that will never accept fact.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/05/steve_jobs_pans_flash_on_the_iphone.html
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/05/steve_jobs_pans_flash_on_the_iphone.html
That's retarded. Half the websites I go to use Flash in a meaningful way. Half of the election coverage last night was Flash-based charts and stuff that were awesome and easy to decipher at a quick glance.
I personally turn off and delete all HTML and jpegs when I see them. Why would you want those?
Lame.
I personally turn off and delete all HTML and jpegs when I see them. Why would you want those?
Lame.
blah, seems like apple is using the iphone and the ipod touch as market research. the REAL phone is still somewhere out there...
actually the people who's gonna benefit from this whole lot are the ones who resisted from buying the first generation iphone - it doesn't really have anything much compared to, let's say, a nokia of an equivalent price... but you know, as we are so devoted to apple, our heads say no but our hearts say yes.
i'd like to see skype on my iphone sometimes soon though. wait 'til summer. the only summer we can get now is summerboard. sorry, can't resist the pun.
actually the people who's gonna benefit from this whole lot are the ones who resisted from buying the first generation iphone - it doesn't really have anything much compared to, let's say, a nokia of an equivalent price... but you know, as we are so devoted to apple, our heads say no but our hearts say yes.
i'd like to see skype on my iphone sometimes soon though. wait 'til summer. the only summer we can get now is summerboard.
sorry, can't resist the pun.again, this is so annoying to repeat...
THAT'S IN YOUR EXPERIENCE. not everyone else's. it's not 1998. flash is everywhere, there are tons of flash based sites. especially in the creative industry, which a lot of mac (apple) users are. so for me, 25% of the time is it in banners. the rest of the time it's used for photographers sites, modeling agencies, ad agency sites, artists sites, etc. all things that you obviously don't navigate to, yet i do, every single day. why choose to omit available content. that just seems completely uninformed and purposefully ignorant.
Humm, I think that some apps are coming tomorrow with the SDK and that Jobs is simply expecting developers to take at least a couple of months to get their applications ready, so.. he estimated summer for the "boom" of native iPhone/iPod Touch Apps.
Regarding the Flash issue.. I am a Flash programmer so I know too well that Flash is just wrongfully over-used nowadays (to my joy), however, I've seen a lot of stuff built in Flash which looks stunning and I would defy you to build it 90% equal on a HTML/AJAX/CSS/JS environment.
An example?
Check out: www.papercritters.com
Remember, the web is not always about information! It is also about having fun!
It's always good to have web standards and I completely agree that there are some websites which should never see a single Flash element, however, I have seen a lot of useful stuff done using the Flash Plugin and I need to defend one of it's biggest pros: The plugin is just 1,457 Kb! (I'm now at work so I'm looking at the Windows Version Download), now, compare it to the QuickTime Plugin (which is basically required to fully view apple.com) and you understand why, even with all it's wrongful uses, people still use Flash to a lot of stuff.
If I would have Flash on the iPhone I would too turn it off (like I did on the PSP), still, I think that everyone is being a little to drastic regarding Flash, you sound like it's the "worst thing ever". IMO, it still has some good uses! It all depends on the Programmer.
Although I agree, the Flash engine still needs to be optimized to relieve some of the workload it throws on the CPU.
Regarding the Flash issue.. I am a Flash programmer so I know too well that Flash is just wrongfully over-used nowadays (to my joy
), however, I've seen a lot of stuff built in Flash which looks stunning and I would defy you to build it 90% equal on a HTML/AJAX/CSS/JS environment. An example?
Check out: www.papercritters.com
Remember, the web is not always about information! It is also about having fun!
It's always good to have web standards and I completely agree that there are some websites which should never see a single Flash element, however, I have seen a lot of useful stuff done using the Flash Plugin and I need to defend one of it's biggest pros: The plugin is just 1,457 Kb! (I'm now at work so I'm looking at the Windows Version Download), now, compare it to the QuickTime Plugin (which is basically required to fully view apple.com) and you understand why, even with all it's wrongful uses, people still use Flash to a lot of stuff.
If I would have Flash on the iPhone I would too turn it off (like I did on the PSP), still, I think that everyone is being a little to drastic regarding Flash, you sound like it's the "worst thing ever". IMO, it still has some good uses! It all depends on the Programmer.
Although I agree, the Flash engine still needs to be optimized to relieve some of the workload it throws on the CPU.
Well, frankly, that papercritter-site is really slow. Perhaps you cannot make it 100 percent like that in html, but you could make it four times as user friendly and at least 6 times faster.
Besides, as far as I can see, this is not about pointing to a site that has flash. We all know they're out there, even if we do(n't) like them. The crux is, that when we _need_ to go there, at least we can. And without flash, it's not possible.
Besides, as far as I can see, this is not about pointing to a site that has flash. We all know they're out there, even if we do(n't) like them. The crux is, that when we _need_ to go there, at least we can. And without flash, it's not possible.
Flash
I think Apple probably left it out for several reasons :
a> It would require more horse-power than their mobile processor has
b> It would require a lot of effort from Apple *and* effort from Adobe
c> They'd be beholden to Adobe for updates
I'm in the creative industry too, and surf with flash off (I enable it when it's absolutely required). Mostly it's used for annoying adverts and sites that want me to sit and watch their site do stuff as if it's a film - no thanks. It's surprising how few sites I actually need it for. It also breaks loads of web paradigms like 1 page per resource, URIs etc which are very useful, so I find it annoying in that respect too.
I'd rather see the web prosper and proprietary extensions like Flash and Silverlight die off. They simply wouldn't be necessary if certain browser manufacturers (MS) hadn't tried to kill the web at birth by taking it over and then letting it wither, and they're less and less relevant nowadays. With HTML 5 you'll be able to do many animations with javascript and css (you can already do a lot). I personally hope Apple refuse to put it on their phone, and this encourages a lot of sites to turn away from Flash (which is after all under the control of Adobe now, who have their own agenda). IMHO Flash is the past, not the future, of web design. If Apple do include it eventually I hope there's a preference for disabling it.
I think Apple probably left it out for several reasons :
a> It would require more horse-power than their mobile processor has
b> It would require a lot of effort from Apple *and* effort from Adobe
c> They'd be beholden to Adobe for updates
I'm in the creative industry too, and surf with flash off (I enable it when it's absolutely required). Mostly it's used for annoying adverts and sites that want me to sit and watch their site do stuff as if it's a film - no thanks. It's surprising how few sites I actually need it for. It also breaks loads of web paradigms like 1 page per resource, URIs etc which are very useful, so I find it annoying in that respect too.
I'd rather see the web prosper and proprietary extensions like Flash and Silverlight die off. They simply wouldn't be necessary if certain browser manufacturers (MS) hadn't tried to kill the web at birth by taking it over and then letting it wither, and they're less and less relevant nowadays. With HTML 5 you'll be able to do many animations with javascript and css (you can already do a lot). I personally hope Apple refuse to put it on their phone, and this encourages a lot of sites to turn away from Flash (which is after all under the control of Adobe now, who have their own agenda). IMHO Flash is the past, not the future, of web design. If Apple do include it eventually I hope there's a preference for disabling it.
I
Sometimes, though, a pause is just there because the fella is slow
And possibly also because he's trying to choose his words very carefully, knowing full well that his every word, breath, and facial twitch will be mercilessly torn apart, mis-interpreted, and open to ridiculous debate, like in this thread for example
Yeah, but Apple could catch up pretty fast. I'd like the idea--sure the features can be created without OSX Server, but it takes some expertise. It would be a lot easier to have a "server-lite" on a Mini that easily allowed folks at home on the same network to share music, video, photos, etc. from a central location. And share contacts and calendars. Ideally one could also use login syncing so one could log in at any computer and get your "home" files and preferences. Obviously there are some other features folks might suggest.
The key idea is to (a) provide it on a low-cost platform like a mini (b) make it easy to use for someone who's not hugely into networking. I don't think OS X Server currently fits either criterion.
I don't believe that everything would be free. I think the free stuff would kind of work like Hulu does now. You go on and you can watch a lot of TV episodes at no cost, but there are ads. I don't think the iTunes store would be replaced with this. The ad supported content would just be an alternative for those who do not wish to pay. If you don't want the adds (and possible HD quality), then you have to buy it.
Wow...great discussion, did not think you would got to this extent but I will honor your hard work with answers and I really do appreciate the opportunity to discuss with you, helps pass the boring day at work, LOL
Thus my reason for saying the nay sayers would still have something to whine about. I am surprised (using my analogies) that Apple hasn't progressed to surpassing 3G and going with WiMax/4G...I suppose it has to do with our weak communciations system here. And you are totally right for Europe/Asia and those countries that put us to shame in this area
But...did they leave it out intentionally or just forget? IMHO, it was intentional. Risky? Heck yes. Upset alot of users? Even more so. But does that still invalidate my statement? In Europe with what you see as a norm and expectation everyday, then I can see and agree with your point. But based on my interpretation, I feel that certain things were left out for a reason. Not being there, I can't speak for them but only surmize. G3 was left out because of multiple reasons (pwr consumption, lack of availability in U.S.) and has already been discussed. GPS (which is available on quite a few cells)...was replaced with a risk/experiment-Google Maps. Is it advanced? maybe/maybe not, depends on user/need. MMS...is a two part reason why it was "probably" not included: 1) Cell company would have created another package to support which=more $'s for the customer, and 2) Apple felt that email is the future and has (for the most part) a greater abiltiy to send more/larger files/pics and allowed docs to be read in that media format, it is also free with the included packages. Flash: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/05/steve_jobs_pans_flash_on_the_iphone.html This is the best explanation I can find other then I just do not need it for the simple tasks that I use on my own phone for. Office suites...Lord only knows why it wasnt included, I miss my tasks/notes and being able to sync to my work calender...however, with this platform and system it is easly fixed with a software package upgrade...any other cell phone would require a new model because that is the way the "other" guys get you to buy a new phone, they don't do upgrades and the third party apps never work (i.e. my Treo and why I carried a Sony Clie' PDA). Cut/Paste & Search...again no clue...simple, used by many and a common everyday tool. On some points I agree, but others...are they truly needed or are they just the equivalent of a "luxury" item? Can you truly function without? That is my test and determination of need. Agree with you on the UI and the Internet capabilties are unbeatable...you have to agree to that.
I kind of mis typed what I intended here. Before my treo, I carried all three (cell/pda/mp3). After I got the Treo, I did drop the PDA but the reasons were twofold, my job ordered me to use a legacy Dayplanner and I could get the Treo to work well enough most of the time to handle my contacts and such. I still carried, by then, an iPod because the Treo's volume and player just totally sucked and would never work. Also songs would just disappear and video?...forget it. I did use office products for review of docs as you state above and I have also conceded that it is one of those apple should have/will put on to appease the business world. They should have done it in the first place. I also have to carry a good old fashioned Thumb Drive to handle the last issue. I used to just use my iPod but that has been retired due to the iPhone...so again, I agree with you...I should be able to use my iPhone as a Thumb Drive. I will submit however that not many phones offer this option, it is deffinetly a minority and even reduced further by companies/corporations that restrict or not allow transfer of data to a drive like device that is not authorized.
Agreed, but I never said it was a "superior" product. I said for me it was all I needed and have admitted openly that there are flaws and things missing that I would also use, this does not however make it an inferior product as it has other things (already discussed) that make it superior to its competition.
Ohhh, how right you are! And the world if full of this garbage that does eventually disappeare off of the market soon to be replaced by more garbage. But that was not my intent behind that statement. You can still have quality products out there that will sell and sell and sell based on some of your examples and then there are those with the intent to start a new trend that just die becuase no one bites. With the iPhone it does not fit into you "garbage theory" and is a terrific piece of technology in "some" aspects and lacking in others, this does not mean that any other product is better or worse then it. It means that it has excellent qualities that a large majority of people like (thus the selling records) and missing a few important common functions that users (like you) will never accept or give time to allow change to take place. Don't forget that this is a first time product for this company and it has far surpassed anything ever released in history...still does not make it perfect and it has a ways to go but gee whiz...for the first time? I know I will never look at a cell phone in the same way again, my expectations have changed to maybe that of what you hold now. Popularity is always going to be a consideration in the market, does that make it less of a product? Granted, if it had those "other" missing functions then it might be even more popular, but there would still/always be missing something that would make someone unhappy about in these forums...it will be a never ending battle. Its not a flawed argument when its based on what sells good must be good...its a common sense argument. If it is "crap" then people will just not buy it, that is a pure fact. Popularity again plays into this and determines what a company does/does not do to change its products popularity/marketability...look at the Newton.
I like your response to the Glass half full/empty
I tried to discuss the important ideas that you had. Please don't be offended if I didnt address all areas, but we are getting a bit long winded so I cut it down a little. I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you and do now take that you are in Europe .vs US into context. Your standards are slightly higher then mine and rightly so.
Thus my reason for saying the nay sayers would still have something to whine about. I am surprised (using my analogies) that Apple hasn't progressed to surpassing 3G and going with WiMax/4G...I suppose it has to do with our weak communciations system here. And you are totally right for Europe/Asia and those countries that put us to shame in this area
But...did they leave it out intentionally or just forget? IMHO, it was intentional. Risky? Heck yes. Upset alot of users? Even more so. But does that still invalidate my statement? In Europe with what you see as a norm and expectation everyday, then I can see and agree with your point. But based on my interpretation, I feel that certain things were left out for a reason. Not being there, I can't speak for them but only surmize. G3 was left out because of multiple reasons (pwr consumption, lack of availability in U.S.) and has already been discussed. GPS (which is available on quite a few cells)...was replaced with a risk/experiment-Google Maps. Is it advanced? maybe/maybe not, depends on user/need. MMS...is a two part reason why it was "probably" not included: 1) Cell company would have created another package to support which=more $'s for the customer, and 2) Apple felt that email is the future and has (for the most part) a greater abiltiy to send more/larger files/pics and allowed docs to be read in that media format, it is also free with the included packages. Flash: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/05/steve_jobs_pans_flash_on_the_iphone.html This is the best explanation I can find other then I just do not need it for the simple tasks that I use on my own phone for. Office suites...Lord only knows why it wasnt included, I miss my tasks/notes and being able to sync to my work calender...however, with this platform and system it is easly fixed with a software package upgrade...any other cell phone would require a new model because that is the way the "other" guys get you to buy a new phone, they don't do upgrades and the third party apps never work (i.e. my Treo and why I carried a Sony Clie' PDA). Cut/Paste & Search...again no clue...simple, used by many and a common everyday tool. On some points I agree, but others...are they truly needed or are they just the equivalent of a "luxury" item? Can you truly function without? That is my test and determination of need. Agree with you on the UI and the Internet capabilties are unbeatable...you have to agree to that.
I kind of mis typed what I intended here. Before my treo, I carried all three (cell/pda/mp3). After I got the Treo, I did drop the PDA but the reasons were twofold, my job ordered me to use a legacy Dayplanner and I could get the Treo to work well enough most of the time to handle my contacts and such. I still carried, by then, an iPod because the Treo's volume and player just totally sucked and would never work. Also songs would just disappear and video?...forget it. I did use office products for review of docs as you state above and I have also conceded that it is one of those apple should have/will put on to appease the business world. They should have done it in the first place. I also have to carry a good old fashioned Thumb Drive to handle the last issue. I used to just use my iPod but that has been retired due to the iPhone...so again, I agree with you...I should be able to use my iPhone as a Thumb Drive. I will submit however that not many phones offer this option, it is deffinetly a minority and even reduced further by companies/corporations that restrict or not allow transfer of data to a drive like device that is not authorized.
Agreed, but I never said it was a "superior" product. I said for me it was all I needed and have admitted openly that there are flaws and things missing that I would also use, this does not however make it an inferior product as it has other things (already discussed) that make it superior to its competition.
Ohhh, how right you are! And the world if full of this garbage that does eventually disappeare off of the market soon to be replaced by more garbage. But that was not my intent behind that statement. You can still have quality products out there that will sell and sell and sell based on some of your examples and then there are those with the intent to start a new trend that just die becuase no one bites. With the iPhone it does not fit into you "garbage theory" and is a terrific piece of technology in "some" aspects and lacking in others, this does not mean that any other product is better or worse then it. It means that it has excellent qualities that a large majority of people like (thus the selling records) and missing a few important common functions that users (like you) will never accept or give time to allow change to take place. Don't forget that this is a first time product for this company and it has far surpassed anything ever released in history...still does not make it perfect and it has a ways to go but gee whiz...for the first time? I know I will never look at a cell phone in the same way again, my expectations have changed to maybe that of what you hold now. Popularity is always going to be a consideration in the market, does that make it less of a product? Granted, if it had those "other" missing functions then it might be even more popular, but there would still/always be missing something that would make someone unhappy about in these forums...it will be a never ending battle. Its not a flawed argument when its based on what sells good must be good...its a common sense argument. If it is "crap" then people will just not buy it, that is a pure fact. Popularity again plays into this and determines what a company does/does not do to change its products popularity/marketability...look at the Newton.
I like your response to the Glass half full/empty
I tried to discuss the important ideas that you had. Please don't be offended if I didnt address all areas, but we are getting a bit long winded
so I cut it down a little. I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you and do now take that you are in Europe .vs US into context. Your standards are slightly higher then mine and rightly so.Sure you can. You don't have to know what a manifold or turbocharger is in order to decide whether or not to get a car or decide between getting the diesel or the gasoline version either
But we're not arguing whether to get a iPhone or not. It whether Flash should be included. I wouldn't tell someone who wants to buy a muscle car, that they don't need a turbo charger, because I don't know anything about them. I'm merely pointing out that there is more to Flash than pop up adds, and just because you don't need it doesn't mean others don't as well.
P6
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)
a few of those seems very interesting. Would love to see a mini Xserve
a few of those seems very interesting. Would love to see a mini Xserve
Easy there my friend, I am not arguing with you at all...i am discussing...please please please dont let this turn into anything other then a discussion.
First, I didnt bring up 3G but if you want to then I totally agree with you. We all know why it wasn't based on Steve's explanation (not mine) and for the time being we as users have accepted (adapted) the way it is. Apple realized and have made announcement that the 3G is on the way so really it's not even a subject to discuss...so the problem has been identified and will be addressed in the near future. Fair warning though, watch these threads when its released...we want WiMax, 3G is so slow on the iPhone, I can't get access...and the moans will go on.
Where in my thread did I say "afraid of new technology"? I stated that people were in a comfort zone with what was available but never stated anyone was afraid. I also never stated anything related to "regression", I did state that Apple was thinking about the future and doing things that were different. Just because one product has something that becomes a norm in everyday use does not mean that when another product comes out that does not have it, that its "regression" Where would our world be without people/companies taking risk and changing the value of the norm? I mean common, why is it such a popular product if it is missing so many "common usage tools"? SMS can be sent to mulitple recipients by the way.
To me and many many more, the iPhone is a great tool...I have never ever felt that I needed something else in my daily activities. It has never let me down and provided more then any other cell phone in my past. I was a previous Treo user and because of its very poor OS i still had to carry a PDA and I also carried an MP3 player because I could never hear anything on the Treo. Again, I state that obviously something is right about the iPhone as tool when it is still selling, CEO's want IT personnel to adapt it to their networks and the list goes on. I dont have to justify it, the media does it for me everyday. The TV shows/programs that have actors and actress's using it everyday as a tool, I mean the list goes on. I will grant that maybe for "you" it is not a good tool and for that I can not help you, but insenuating for all others is a little bit much.
Is there something wrong with current user's "making do and coming up with workarounds and excuses"? I think not, I think that they are adapting and accepting it for what it currently has to offer and look forward to the potential it has for the future...and really...excuses? I think that is a little much. Again, I am only trying to discuss here, I have no intention of "arguing" with you and if that is what you want to do then my discussion with you will end with this post. Honestly, no I cant say that anyone phone is better then the other...for each one develped and sold, it has a purpose and popularity. If users like it, then it stays on the market, if they dont then it dies and a new creation takes its place. If you like the Blackberry better and feel that it offers more then please by all means, use it for those needs. But the iPhone is still selling "the way it is" and the "average" user thinks its great for what it does and has the future potential to do. Not one part of its developement or sales models has caused it to die...yet. Could they have sold more...deffinetly. Did they make mistakes...more then likely. Do they care, probably not that much, since they are still setting records for the way it is or will be.
In regards to your last paragraph...it can be seen in your point of view or others can look at it in mine. I see the Blackberrys and Treo's being the same way they were 5 years ago and that is why alot of users expect new products to be the same way...because it is the norm and the way they have done things for so long, there has been no changes other then some minor software changes. It is your opinion that the iPhone is lacking features and again, I will not belittle that fact with the way you percieve the product. IMO it has every feature that I need and use. I have never used MMS, I do not need a GPS, I could care less about copy/paste or flash. I do not live in a 3G area. So for me and obviously, thousands of others that keep buying this product...its enough for us and not a broken tool. Alls I ask is that you approach the concept from various points of view intstead of being tunnel visioned...see it for not only what it is, but what it has the potential to become. Is your glass half empty or half full?
Last little reminder...I have been pleasent and started a discussion, If you want to argue or cut me down for my post, then this conversation is ended.
Have a great day!
To piggy back on your statements: Yes, there are phones from 5 years ago that could do things that the iPhone can't right now. But, they did them in a very crappy way. AND, they still do. Having used a wide variety of phones and PDA over the past 8 years i can attest to this. A typical approach to a smartphone development is to throw in as many things into the phone as possible to make it 'feature-rich.' Whether the features actually make sense for the user or that the features are implemented well is really beside the point for the manufacturer. The point for them is that their list of features is longer then the list of features of a competitor. (Think who has the longest phallus). The only company that is the exception is RIM and their email. Everything else though on their phone is pretty crappy user-wise.
The kind of whining i read all the time on the boards here is that the iPhone lacks this or that or whatever. Buy something else then!! No one is making you buy the iPhone and no, the lack of such and such feature is obviously not hurting Apple because is currently the #2 selling smartphone behind RIM.
As with the iPod. Everyone bemoaned the lack of some feature or another and compared it to some other manufacturer who 'got it right' with their MP3 player. Yet, iPod continues to be the #1 selling player. Apple does this by slowly adding features when they know that they can integrate them efficiently and effectively. Not just throwing it in there all willy nilly. They make it intuitive.
asphalt-proo said:
Only in the US which, I think, is only the third biggest market. Nokia dominate global smartphone sales.
iPhone is #3 on the Global Market, #2 in the U.S.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=24087