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I agree

am i the only person on here that thinks flash would be horrible for the iphone? it would just slow down the edge connection even more, drain the battery, plague the iphone with pop up crap, and really, what do you need flash for? i just don't get it.

I agree with you 110%. I have a flash-block like plugin on my safari because i can't stand flash advertisements. There is really no need to bog down the iPhone's resources with flash. What ever happened to DHTML? So much can be done with all the advancing technologies out there (AJAX, JavaScript, etc) to deliver interactive websites sans Flash.
 
wow this thread went from SDK this week or not to FLASH Topic.

I hope they start releasing some apps sono. I'm aware it take time to make apps and they have to wait untill apple releases the SDK. I can't wait. Hope i'll have some games, and productivity apps.

Can't wait to juice up my iphone!
 
Haha, that part of the argument, where flash will slow down edge, and therefore they shouldn't catch up with the rest of them is bogus. How about doing the opposite of crippling it more than it has to be? How about introducing a faster connection? It's called 3G.
 
Oh sheesh, we're reading things into when Jobs DOESN'T say things now! A pause means something? Other than he needs to take a breath? :)

When asked about free, ad-supported content on AppleTV, Jobs promptly keeled over and died, which industry analysts take to be sure sign that you'll be seeing ads towards the end of summer, 2008.
 
You can just run the slimserver software on one of your computers, it's freely available.

I bring my Macbook Pro with me to work daily. Not sure I'd also want to leave a laptop on at home 24/7. :) I also Google'd Slimcenter, seems to be renamed Squeeze Server and only supports audio? I want video! :)
 
What I am confused about and probably #2 on the 3 top-most reasons why I don't have an iPhone yet - Where's MMS?

Has it weaseled it's way into a firmware update? How do you NOT have MMS on a phone? Are you capable of E-mailing a picture that you take on the iPhone to someone? I saw the 3rd party MMS feature - but I want it integrated and I want to be able to send and receive MMS messages. And, send MMS messages to MULTIPLE recipients.

Flash would be nice - but honestly 99% of flash is advertisements and no FireFox on the iPhone means no AdBlock Plus, NoScript and FlashBlock.

Obviously my #1 reason is no 3G, #3 comes in with lack of POP3.
 
Did you read what Steve said? "Learn Cocoa and write it yourself." Of course most users lack he skills required but many don't.

This is really big news. When Jobs said that he gave away some good info -- That Apple will NOT act as a gate keeper that people will be able to write their own software. He expects that by summer may people will have done just that

This is a good point. So, maybe apple won't be so restrictive when it comes to developing software for the iphone. But if they are doing it through iTunes, I highly doubt they would just let anyone upload their created software to iTunes.
 
Instead of debating on flash or no flash, Apple should include it and allow you to turn it off. The problem is that there is no right answer about flash. Flash ads are annoying, but there are lots of sites (and many particular artsy sites which one would think would be Apple user heavy) which use flash because of the expressive power it can give you.

How about just let me, the user decide. I know that's very anti-Apple lately (whatever happened to think different? but I digress), but it's the closest thing to a 'correct' solution out there.
 
I am not trying to convince you – and games certainly aren't a reason to introduce flash. Buy a Sony PSP instead.

However, there already _are_ loads of sites out there that have flash to the extent that you won't even be able to go there without it.
Many sites, especially "high-class design" sites use flash ad nauseum. And although I hate it, some of these sites are often necessary for me to enter in order to research. Without flash, it's not a "full web browser".
Now, if apple were the first, and they somehow got to set the standards, it would be an entirely different scenario. But as it is, they're behind the times on more than one point, playing catch-up, and they're far from large enough to dictate how the web works. Hell, even Microsoft isn't big enough (close, but no cigar).

Understand and agree with you totally on first paragraph and for most of the second. Where I differ yet agree is that some sites do need currently need the flash to be effective in their intent but that it is changeable to still be effective with other forms of "player" code. I dont think apple is behind the times, I think they are currently developing and setting the future standard. They are taking a risk by jumping ahead to the future and becoming the standard.

My point/example...Look at how many web sites are currently already adapting to the iPhone. They have their own design, build and use made for this brand new product. How many web sites have been developed for any other type of cell phone??? And yes, I can see it the complainers already...its lite, its not the real internet, blah blah blah. You are using it right? Those sites that are flash based and are loosing hits (iphone is currently the #4 internet platform in the world) because such a large base is going to iPhone friendly sites will eventually change and conform if they do not want to loose their average base.

Its called improvise, adapt and overcome. Technology is constantly changing on a daily basis, this has already been identified and proven that their are major web masters out there already conforming to one single product. Flash, MMS, and the like are old news, they are a comfort zone for those unwilling to adapt and change and this includes those cell makers that have not changed for years and years (Treo, Blackberry, etc.) by still utilizing and making the user conform...Apple has broken this mold and there will be those that fight the change (i.e. the complainers)but eventually they will change and conform to the new method of this or a similiar communication device.

Changes are already here and they will become more and more accepted in the months to come, look at how the other cell companies are trying to build something that will compete with the iPhone, this doesnt happen because of flash/mms. This phone is constantly setting new records and establishing a bar that others are trying to conform and catch up to, so obviously its not because it is missing flash/mms.

Something new is coming and it looks like it will be apple that will bring it when they are ready and know that it will change the way "flash" like products are used, or getting rid of the money hungry, weak mms system.
 
This is what I read into the message.

SDK = Software Development Kit btw. Its release has nothing to do with more software for your iPhone. It just gives developers a way to create new software for the iPhone.

The SDK will be revealed and maybe released in beta for this thursday. There will likely be some big apps coming along with it too. Companies that apple gave special privileges to and early SDK versions to get software in the works.

The part about a lot of apps being available in the summer is because, well, summer is only a couple months away now. It takes time to write software, lots of time to write good software. Plus, there will be learning curves for working with this SDK etc.

In order to get apps out by summer, I would think they have to release the SDK within the next couple weeks.
 
Seems pretty clear:

- SDK on Thursday, maybe Beta, but certainly bare bones, by which I expect the basic toolchain (compiler & linker, and maybe minimal XCode support). I expect simulator, GUI builder etc to follow along later. I doubt these will be on the roadmap, because if Apple sets an expectation on delivery, then that tie its hands. Maybe iTunes availability of certified apps will follow in a couple of months? Probably being worked on in parallel with early app certification.

- Some new apps tomorrow from those that have had access. We've seen from what's out already that some pretty nifty apps can be developed with what's there now.

- The apps out during the Summer bit, refers to the development / test / certifcation cycle that's inevitable (and will be welcomed by those that want to see a high standard for iPhone apps). If it's a free-for-all, the quality average quality level will suck and average user will be put off. Serious developers will need to apply for a digital certificate that also accounts for the time to get apps out there.

That's my take.

Nige
--
www.binarydisco.com
 
NO ads!

i bought an apple tv so i can access my media library and control my viewing experience. i don't mind paying a premium, either.

i know that ad-supported content would we (at least initially) selectable, but once corporations get their tentacles into apple tv, the ads will start to creep, just like on cable.

remember when cable was a "premium" viewing option, because it was subscription-supported in addition to advertising-supported? then, the ads started proliferating, then station id bugs started appearing on every channel, now, banners and animations can take up 1/3 of the screen DURING the programming i want to watch. and they have SOUND, too!

i'm sure it will happen, but i don't want to see it. trust me, even if you NEVER want to watch ad-supported content on apple tv, you WILL see some sort of ads eventually (maybe a startup splash, a corner bug, an animated menu item....)
 
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Another one of those moments where they really didn't reveal anything. You could interpret what Jobs said either way, except for the flash part which was pretty cut and dry. Maybe we will get a little more info on Thursday.

Patiently waiting!!!
 
It would be great if they could have all content in two options, ad supported and without ads, but with an additional fee. I'm all for ad supported as most of the time they dont' bother me as much. But for certain content like Movies, I prefer not to have then and would be okay paying a little more for that.
 
I have to agree with all of the following as they have already stated how I feel on the subject. My challenge goes out for someone to sell me on why the heck we need flash. A regular has finally convinced me with a common since post on the value of 3G...so now I challenge someone to convince me on Flash, otherwise its more complaining about something that is not needed.

I am tired of see threads started about how slow edge is, how the newest update is responsible for lower battery performance...and you don't think that flash will effect these areas??? give me a break
Flash games are cheap and use up tremendous resources, games similiar to those that are available for the iPods are coming soon and are not resource hungry...so don't try to sell me on games.

I hate flash adds that are always poppin up on various websites, they cause slow loading, use resources and distract from the intent of the original web site I am visiting

AMEN...feel exactly the same way!

Again, well stated. There are others that posted on page 2 that I also fully support in their respective comments related to flash.

Personally I find just as many annoying banner ads not using flash (animated gifs) as the ones that do. I find the argument about "annoying banner ads, splash pages and popups" outdated. This may have been true 5 years ago, but not today. These are clearly acknowledged as bad practice among flash developers just as tabled layouts and embedded styles are considered bad practice with html develoeprs.

So while there are still plenty of sites using flash poorly, there are also plenty of sites using html poorly as well (tables, iframes, etc). Nobody can prevent people from putting out crap, but i think there is a clear trend from using flash for banner ads to using it for value added situations like video and web applications. Just as there is a clear trend away from tabled html layouts to using xhtml, css and ajax.


What about the thousands of site using flash to deliver video? Apparently the forum members here aren't among the billions of people visiting these sites? I really have a hard time believing all the flash bashers here aren't using bits of flash on sites they visit every day (an enjoying them :) ). For example on cnn last night, they had maps of texas and ohio broken down by county with realtime results ( in flash). This is type of thing i would miss with no flash.

And you know how big the file size for these flash maps were 73KB+ 44KB. In fact if you look at the totals for javascript vs flash files on the page i'm referring to Texas Primary results on CNN you can see the total for javascript libraries is double at 354KB than the total for flash on the page (including 2 ads) at 171KB.

Keep in mind that the flash sizes include all the graphical assets while the javascript sizes do not. If you look at the file size for the whole page you'll notice its 913KB. So at the end of the day the flash assets for the page are about the same download as the 167KB of stylesheets.

I've got nothing against javascript, I use it all the time when i develop websites and its awesome, im just saying the bloated files sizes for flash files people keep mentioning here don't seem like a valid point to me.


As far as the power concerns there are two options. First is to put flash lite on the phone! this is on hundreds of devices and requires much less processor power than the standard flashplayer. Steve confuses me here by saying that they could never put less than the full version of flash on the phone because its not the full web experience. So instead he puts nothing? Doesn't even give the option of having it? How is that better?

And second is that Adobe is working on an OPEN SOURCE project with mozilla dubbed Tamarin Tracing which lets cpus with very low power run actionscript code. This sounds like most promising to me in regards to having flash on an iPhone.
 
Hm. Maybe because apps are not written instantaneously? The SDK will be out tomorrow. Then lots of apps, a bit later.

That was tricky!

Guess it was, since a lot of people were adding 2 and 2 together and getting 5....

Yeah, getting lots and lots of apps by summer means that a SDK of some sort will HAVE to be released on Thursday. Folk complaining about "Not until summer? WAAHHHH!" just aren't thinking. (As in, if they released a full fledged SDK last week, you STILL wouldn't have full apps until near summer....)
 
You can just run the slimserver software on one of your computers, it's freely available.

I bring my Macbook Pro with me to work daily. Not sure I'd also want to leave a laptop on at home 24/7. :) I also Google'd Slimcenter, seems to be renamed Squeeze Server and only supports audio? I want video! :)


bytethese is right Slimserver = Squeeze = audio.

SLINGbox is video over IP.
 
Understand and agree with you totally on first paragraph and for most of the second. Where I differ yet agree is that some sites do need currently need the flash to be effective in their intent but that it is changeable to still be effective with other forms of "player" code. I dont think apple is behind the times, I think they are currently developing and setting the future standard. They are taking a risk by jumping ahead to the future and becoming the standard.
Since when is regression "jumping ahead"?
They have no 3G. They claim it's because of it using too much juice – but the only thing that tells me, is that they – unlike other cell phone manufacturers - haven't been able to design a cell phone that can accomodate a bigger battery. But no, you're arguing that they're "jumping ahead" and that it's just because people are "afraid of new technology". Well, I'm sorry, but going back to what a "smart phone" could do five years or more ago isn't "being afraid".
Further, speaking of regression: The iPhone is incapable of sending and receiving MMS's, it's incapable of forwarding a SMS, incapable of sending an sms to multiple recipients, incapable of reading a anything not send to it by mail (woopy – you cannot transfer a picture, pdf or anything, no, you have to mail it to yourself), you cannot read a -doc-document, you certainly cannot edit them and on and on.
Ah, but yes, "it's just because we fear this "new high tech device" :rolleyes:


My point/example...Look at how many web sites are currently already adapting to the iPhone. They have their own design, build and use made for this brand new product. How many web sites have been developed for any other type of cell phone??? And yes, I can see it the complainers already...its lite, its not the real internet, blah blah blah. You are using it right? Those sites that are flash based and are loosing hits (iphone is currently the #4 internet platform in the world) because such a large base is going to iPhone friendly sites will eventually change and conform if they do not want to loose their average base.
If a tool doesn't work in the real world as the world looks right now, it's not a tool, but a toy. It's useless the day you need one of the features not in the iPhone. No matter what, you have to use another device to work around the shortcomings, otherwise you're just stuck. And if you actually had some foresight and brought the capable device with you, why not just leave the iPhone at home?.


Its called improvise, adapt and overcome.
No, the cell phone life of an iPhone user is "making do" and coming up with workarounds and excuses. Why do you even try arguing that people should buy a product less capable than what they already have? Hell, most non-3G phones can do more work than that thing.

Technology is constantly changing on a daily basis, this has already been identified and proven that their are major web masters out there already conforming to one single product. Flash, MMS, and the like are old news, they are a comfort zone for those unwilling to adapt and change and this includes those cell makers that have not changed for years and years (Treo, Blackberry, etc.) by still utilizing and making the user conform...Apple has broken this mold and there will be those that fight the change (i.e. the complainers)but eventually they will change and conform to the new method of this or a similiar communication device.

I'm sorry, but the blackberrys are much more of a practical tool than the iPhone. But, you do know, that there are very capable 3G phones out there, and that phones around here (EU) aren't crippled as the US-carriers do to the phones they sell you guys?


What's ironic, is that you're saying that blackberry and so on have tried making people conform, yet your entire argument is "The iPhone is not lacking in features – The rest of the world just have to conform to the limited feature set of the iPhone".

Ah, well, the rest is just more of the same.
 
Personally I find just as many annoying banner ads not using flash (animated gifs) as the ones that do. I find the argument about "annoying banner ads, splash pages and popups" outdated. This may have been true 5 years ago, but not today. These are clearly acknowledged as bad practice among flash developers just as tabled layouts and embedded styles are considered bad practice with html develoeprs.

So while there are still plenty of sites using flash poorly, there are also plenty of sites using html poorly as well (tables, iframes, etc). Nobody can prevent people from putting out crap, but i think there is a clear trend from using flash for banner ads to using it for value added situations like video and web applications. Just as there is a clear trend away from tabled html layouts to using xhtml, css and ajax.


What about the thousands of site using flash to deliver video? Apparently the forum members here aren't among the billions of people visiting these sites? I really have a hard time believing all the flash bashers here aren't using bits of flash on sites they visit every day (an enjoying them :) ). For example on cnn last night, they had maps of texas and ohio broken down by county with realtime results ( in flash). This is type of thing i would miss with no flash. And you know how big the file size for these were....73KB. Compared to the javascript libraries CNN uses ( Prototype.js = 72KB, Effect.js = 38KB ) I'd say that's far from the bloated downloads people here keep mentioning.


As far as the power concerns there are two options. First is to put flash lite on the phone! this is on hundreds of devices and requires much less processor power than the standard flashplayer. Steve confuses me here by saying that they could never put less than the full version of flash on the phone because its not the full web experience. So instead he puts nothing? Doesn't even give the option of having it? How is that better?

And second is that Adobe is working on an OPEN SOURCE project with mozilla dubbed Tamarin Tracing which lets cpus with very low power run actionscript code. This sounds like most promising to me in regards to having flash on an iPhone.

All very good points, and I won't/can't argue what you have stated. However, my point is simple...change is coming and sooner or later those that are stuck in the flash/mms world will eventually have to adapt and change. Webmasters are already building sites that conform to the iPhone standard which has never been done before. I think whatever it is that we see in the future will be better then anything that those are asking for now that IMO are outdated. I have done very well using my iPhone daily without flash/mms and do not miss it in the least.

Again, great points and well said but I am not sold that it is needed. :)
 
agreed

I don't understand the whole MMS whining thing. MMS is just crippled and overpriced email. The whole thing will disappear the second the other mobile handsets start to handle email nicely. You want to start paying for your emails per messages sent like you pay for SMS?

Exactly! Completely agreed. Couple of years ago, when I noticed the MMS feature on my latest blackberry at the time, I was completely mystified why this was being touted as a feature. I thought it was one of those things trotted out and see if it sticks. I am surprised to hear people are using this mode.
 
... It's useless the day you need one of the features not in the iPhone. ...

I thought this was funny considering your posts in the Safari thread.

:)

No foul intended; I just got a laugh out of it.
 
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