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MarcelV said:
Hmm, probably you meant 200 million downloads? But for the rest, sounds very reasonable. I expect an eMac update, just because it's overdue and Tiger will require a new videocard for all the CoreImage features.
Yes, 200+ Million total downloads was meant. eMac update is certainly possible. I just don't know if they're going to bother with it at MWSF when they have real winners in the iPod and Tiger.

I'll be shocked, but pleasantly suprised, at any desktop or notebook h/w announcements.
 
weldon said:
I just don't know if they're going to bother with it at MWSF when they have real winners in the iPod and Tiger.

"They have real winners in the iPod and Tiger.", you say.

To which I reply "Not so, not by a long shot".

To all of us on the Windows side who bought an iPod (or even only used iTunes, which does present the Apple way of doing things, which is "correctly and easily" for a change), Apple needs to address our needs (if their plan is to increase their userbase even further, that is). iPod is a nice portable music player, iTunes is a nice program. But Tiger and OS X are completely unknown. Which is a shame, because it's what's worth getting a Mac for.

Another iPod (the "iPod micro", the flash one, lowest price, etc) would be nice for the on-line music marketshare and all, that's for sure. They need it to grow their userbase who can "experience" Apple, but at a much lower price.

As for Tiger, this alone won't make us buy an expensive computer (Joe Street doesn't really compare features and value, he compares sticker prices). After all, without a Mac, we can't experience Tiger. Without experiencing Tiger, we're more than happy with iTunes(+iPod) on Windows. But we don't "crave" for better, since people are comfortable with "good enough". We do see a hint of what the Apple "experience" can be with iTunes, but aside from that, life's "ok" on Windows. Apple needs to open the doors a little (and no, I'm not talking about porting iLife to Windows, that would be suicide - IMO anyway).

The iMac G5 is nice, but until it has a better GPU, a lot of PC users won't even look at it. The eMac, Apple's entry-level computer (which is what a lot of switchers are looking at, since it's Apple's lowest-priced computer) is currently a big joke (the features it has are pathetic for 2004). PowerMac is a no-go, being the most expensive Macs you can buy. I think Apple will address both these problems with the eMac G5, and Radeon 9600/64MB in both of these.

weldon said:
eMac update is certainly possible. I'll be shocked, but pleasantly suprised, at any desktop or notebook h/w announcements.

Well, the iBook got an update a few months ago without any fanfare. But it was only an update to an already existing model. So no big deal there. Especially since it further closed the gap between iBook and PowerBook (at least for the 12" model). As for the eMac, according to the usual delay between updates, it's way overdue. Something's got to be done, and soon.

We did see an internal Apple memo about the next eMac "having minor external/big internal changes", so we can assume they're not dropping it from their lines, and "big internal changes" points to the G5. Now that the iMac has it, nothing's stopping it from getting a G5 too. I really wonder if it'll be running at 1.6GHz though, since the lowest iMac G5 is 1.6GHz. Perhaps 1.4 or 1.5Ghz for the eMac? Unless Apple does release eMac G5/1.6GHz and updates the iMac at the same time? (isn't it too early for an iMac update?)

If the eMac goes G5, it is a big deal. It also means their entry-model desktop now uses the same CPU as their top-of-the-line, professional computers (yeah I know, different bus speeds, GPU, etc. But you get the basic idea about "eMac = PowerMac from only 2 years ago since it now has a G5 too").

Either the PowerMacs will get a noticable speed bump or jump to the next level (G6). Of course, the PowerMac G6 will only be available later (2005-Q4?), with Steve demo'ing one of the few prototypes (and no, we won't see what it'll look like, only the computing power is has).

Consumer desktops will be G5, Pro will be G6.
Consumers laptops will be G4, Pro will be dual-core G4 (or low-speed G6?).

The rumor does list the eMac as "G5/1.6GHz with Radeon 9600", which could hint an iMac update after all (why on earth would the eMac sports a Radeon 9600/64MB if the iMac has a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra/64MB?). And while we're at it, even the eMac would now have a better GPU than the lowest PowerMac model (with the current default configuration)... I smell updates across the board for the desktops! Major ones for eMac and PowerMac, and a speedbump/features bump for iMac. :D

And lastly (again), for those who will complain that "the eMac cannot go G5 before the PowerBook":
1. as far as we know, it cannot be done for the PowerBook at the moment, get over it.
2. the iMac already has a G5 and it isn't in the "Pro" line. So your argument about the "classes" of computers doesn't hold since Apple already broke it.

Edit: I moved a lot of paragraphs around, trying to make my post easier to read. But I may have failed and complicated things instead. :cool:
 
my guess

I would be perfectly happy with a speed boost to 1.5ghz/1.67 and a better GPU for the PB. I have looked at PC laptops and you can't get anything like a PB, 12' without paying as much or more http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=50528406&pfp=BROWSE Spyware XP preinstalled nice... (400mhz FSB is a kicker though) this Viao has no BT and the video card sucks compared to the PB. (I know I have used both the ATI 9200 32MB and the GF5200 64MB, ibook 1.25 and PB 1.33) with the educational discount you can get a PB with superdrive for $1599 or a combo for $1399 if they bump it to 1.5ghz/1.67ghz and lower the price it would be a great deal in the small form factor notebook area keeping up with PCs of the same specs. As for the 15' and 17' Apple needs to do something huge because they are just a waste of money as is! I say Duel Core, it's ready (so they say) my GUESS is 1.5ghz G4 12' 512MB Ram, ATI 9800 128mb $1599 Super Drive $1699, 1.8ghz Duel Core 15' 512MB Ram GeForce Go 6800 128MB $1999 Super Drive $2099, 1.8ghz Duel Core 17' 512MB GeForce Go 6800 128MB $2499 Super Drive $2599 A guy can dream cant he? G5... I doubt it Apple has to at least do a speedbump though.
 
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/rel_qual_info/MC7447ARQI.pdf - posted by someone at AI

7447B is official, up to 1.67ghz...seems quite likely to be the next PB chip...maybe apple will get a higher clocked version than is commercially available though? been done before.

have to see. certainly provides some fuel for that 'anonymous' mwsf prediction. and if they use this chip maybe it means they'll be shipping (relatively) soon after the annoucement.
 
Wouldn't the current powerbook be faster if they just opened up the FSB? Or am I missing somthing?
 
kdawg said:
Wouldn't the current powerbook be faster if they just opened up the FSB? Or am I missing somthing?

I know not about the chip cores themselves....is a faster FSB even possible with the current G4 chip that is being used in the PB lineup? (I guess iB too).

It seems that a FSB bump would definitely liven the systems, however I doubt that would be enough of a change to validate a new revision and a big hype. I would think that the FSB bump might come along with the a processor bump along with....well, this is all dreams and last I checked Santa did not deliver last time I wished for things of this nature...perhaps the G4 can benefit from a coal upgrade somehow since that is my best bet this year :p
 
maybe the reason why apple is always lagging, in hardware advancments, is that they dont have the money that big pc companies have for design and research.
 
DrPepper said:
maybe the reason why apple is always lagging, in hardware advancments, is that they dont have the money that big pc companies have for design and research.

Wierd that you say that since they have a few billion dollars laying around at the moment.

And its not all about clock speeds, its about how the system performs as a whole.
 
andrebsd said:
Wierd that you say that since they have a few billion dollars laying around at the moment.

And its not all about clock speeds, its about how the system performs as a whole.

Valid point. Not to pc the thread, but take a look at the P4 in comparison to the P-M. Although the P4 has muc higher clock speeds, the P-M is actually much more efficient from both a power and computational standpoint compared to the P4. (only used these because I know little about the actual structure of the G4/5 chips)

Building a solid and speedy system is much more valuable than simply making a fasater processor. Although joe-schmoe might like a 3.6HT or whatever, a smarter consumer (I pray the masses, please!) would realize that the newer Dothans with 2mb l2 cache @ 1.8 or perhaps even 1.6 would probably perform better in most cases (not gaming) for their needs, as well as actually allow mobility instead of having a small desktop that is REQUIRED to tether to wall.

I guess you could use it for 30minutes....if you like that sort of thing.
 
R and D is not just about dollars

Dell spends more real dollars on R&D than Apple. But...
As a percentage of revenue, Apple spends much, much more on R&D than Dell. Look up their 10-K reports to the SEC for the numbers.

R&D is as much about finding out what you DON'T want to produce as it is creating new products for market. Jobs gave an interview a couple of months ago where he said one of the things he was most proud of was that they had said "no" to many ideas, including things like PDAs and phones.

Another aspect of R&D is cost-control. The designs for a flat-panel iMac were ready far in advance of production. They needed to wait until flat panel costs fell enough to make the product viable. To move toward this end, Apple invested in Samsung. This is a clear sign that they did learn at least part of the lesson of the Cube: Price matters, even in the premium market of Macs.

I imagine there are several really good ideas tucked away in Cupertino just waiting for production technology to make them market-viable.
 
jccbin said:
Dell spends more real dollars on R&D than Apple. But...
As a percentage of revenue, Apple spends much, much more on R&D than Dell. Look up their 10-K reports to the SEC for the numbers.

R&D is as much about finding out what you DON'T want to produce as it is creating new products for market. Jobs gave an interview a couple of months ago where he said one of the things he was most proud of was that they had said "no" to many ideas, including things like PDAs and phones.

Another aspect of R&D is cost-control. The designs for a flat-panel iMac were ready far in advance of production. They needed to wait until flat panel costs fell enough to make the product viable. To move toward this end, Apple invested in Samsung. This is a clear sign that they did learn at least part of the lesson of the Cube: Price matters, even in the premium market of Macs.

I imagine there are several really good ideas tucked away in Cupertino just waiting for production technology to make them market-viable.

Dell doesn't spend squat for R&D! Dells are just a bunch of parts put together with a Dell name on it. Its just better quality parts than the rest that makes them last a little longer.

Apple spends well over 500 Million dollars every year on R&D. It takes Apple around 2 years to build a new Mac from the ground up. Dell doesn't build PCs from the ground up. They don't design their own machines. The motherboard is an Intel board with a Dell name on it with an Intel chipset. An Apple motherboard (aka logicboard) is an Apple motherboard with an Apple chipset, with an Apple cooling system thats designed all around the case thats designed by Apple. So how can Dell spend more on R&D than Apple????
 
mklos said:
An Apple motherboard (aka logicboard) is an Apple motherboard with an Apple chipset, with an Apple cooling system thats designed all around the case thats designed by Apple. So how can Dell spend more on R&D than Apple????
Hehe not exactly. The iPod is made apple and the iPod software is designed by a company called Portal Player. Furthermore, the processors in the iPods are not Apple processors.

Apple desktops/laptops are contracted out to some Asian manufacturers, actually. The chip inside is made by IBM, and Apple licensed the G5 liquid cooling technology from another company.

Granted, Apple puts it all together in a way that nobody else can... drool... got a 20" iMac for the fam for xmas... In any case, just letting you know.
 
spaceballl said:
Hehe not exactly. The iPod is made apple and the iPod software is designed by a company called Portal Player. Furthermore, the processors in the iPods are not Apple processors.

Apple desktops/laptops are contracted out to some Asian manufacturers, actually. The chip inside is made by IBM, and Apple licensed the G5 liquid cooling technology from another company.

Granted, Apple puts it all together in a way that nobody else can... drool... got a 20" iMac for the fam for xmas... In any case, just letting you know.

I wasn't talking about the iPod, I was talking about Apple Computers. The processors in Macs aren't made by Apple either so whats your point?

My point was, that Dell doesn't spend more than Apple on R&D. The iPod has nothing to do with that!
 
Intel is a processor company, you should compare it against IBM or Freescale, not against Apple

As for M$, most of their R&D money is invested in either fixing bugs or trying to imitate Apple, Apple and the companies that create software for Mac os are -almost- the only ones that actually researches and develops, if it weren't for Apple, we would still be using dosshell as our UI.
 
Regarding MSWF announcements...

I think Apple should refocus this year on getting third party apps ported to Mac OS X. They should have a special unit that lobbies big PC software vendors and helps them set up a Mac division with financial assistance and special kits etc...
 
Excellent Points! Good Post

:)
Yvan256 said:
"They have real winners in the iPod and Tiger.", you say.

To which I reply "Not so, not by a long shot".

To all of us on the Windows side who bought an iPod (or even only used iTunes, which does present the Apple way of doing things, which is "correctly and easily" for a change), Apple needs to address our needs (if their plan is to increase their userbase even further, that is). iPod is a nice portable music player, iTunes is a nice program. But Tiger and OS X are completely unknown. Which is a shame, because it's what's worth getting a Mac for.

Another iPod (the "iPod micro", the flash one, lowest price, etc) would be nice for the on-line music marketshare and all, that's for sure. They need it to grow their userbase who can "experience" Apple, but at a much lower price.

As for Tiger, this alone won't make us buy an expensive computer (Joe Street doesn't really compare features and value, he compares sticker prices). After all, without a Mac, we can't experience Tiger. Without experiencing Tiger, we're more than happy with iTunes(+iPod) on Windows. But we don't "crave" for better, since people are comfortable with "good enough". We do see a hint of what the Apple "experience" can be with iTunes, but aside from that, life's "ok" on Windows. Apple needs to open the doors a little (and no, I'm not talking about porting iLife to Windows, that would be suicide - IMO anyway).

The iMac G5 is nice, but until it has a better GPU, a lot of PC users won't even look at it. The eMac, Apple's entry-level computer (which is what a lot of switchers are looking at, since it's Apple's lowest-priced computer) is currently a big joke (the features it has are pathetic for 2004). PowerMac is a no-go, being the most expensive Macs you can buy. I think Apple will address both these problems with the eMac G5, and Radeon 9600/64MB in both of these.



Well, the iBook got an update a few months ago without any fanfare. But it was only an update to an already existing model. So no big deal there. Especially since it further closed the gap between iBook and PowerBook (at least for the 12" model). As for the eMac, according to the usual delay between updates, it's way overdue. Something's got to be done, and soon.

We did see an internal Apple memo about the next eMac "having minor external/big internal changes", so we can assume they're not dropping it from their lines, and "big internal changes" points to the G5. Now that the iMac has it, nothing's stopping it from getting a G5 too. I really wonder if it'll be running at 1.6GHz though, since the lowest iMac G5 is 1.6GHz. Perhaps 1.4 or 1.5Ghz for the eMac? Unless Apple does release eMac G5/1.6GHz and updates the iMac at the same time? (isn't it too early for an iMac update?)

If the eMac goes G5, it is a big deal. It also means their entry-model desktop now uses the same CPU as their top-of-the-line, professional computers (yeah I know, different bus speeds, GPU, etc. But you get the basic idea about "eMac = PowerMac from only 2 years ago since it now has a G5 too").

Either the PowerMacs will get a noticable speed bump or jump to the next level (G6). Of course, the PowerMac G6 will only be available later (2005-Q4?), with Steve demo'ing one of the few prototypes (and no, we won't see what it'll look like, only the computing power is has).

Consumer desktops will be G5, Pro will be G6.
Consumers laptops will be G4, Pro will be dual-core G4 (or low-speed G6?).

The rumor does list the eMac as "G5/1.6GHz with Radeon 9600", which could hint an iMac update after all (why on earth would the eMac sports a Radeon 9600/64MB if the iMac has a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra/64MB?). And while we're at it, even the eMac would now have a better GPU than the lowest PowerMac model (with the current default configuration)... I smell updates across the board for the desktops! Major ones for eMac and PowerMac, and a speedbump/features bump for iMac. :D

And lastly (again), for those who will complain that "the eMac cannot go G5 before the PowerBook":
1. as far as we know, it cannot be done for the PowerBook at the moment, get over it.
2. the iMac already has a G5 and it isn't in the "Pro" line. So your argument about the "classes" of computers doesn't hold since Apple already broke it.

Edit: I moved a lot of paragraphs around, trying to make my post easier to read. But I may have failed and complicated things instead. :cool:

Excellent Points - Video in Imac G5 is pathetic, only 64 Meg on a 2 year old card? (and btw non-upgradable), Addressable RAM is only 2 GIG (Why not 4?), Why only a 1.8 processor? Price range between an iMac and Power mac is too great to not offer more options. Either strengthen the eMac line or offer more options on the iMac.
 
any idea how much the powerbook g4 dual processor laptops will go for, if this does happen? Any speculation on processor speed? 1.5 still? What about the Hard Drive speed? stock RAM would be 512Mb?
 
On Magnum's note, in past experiences when Powerbooks have gotten a speed bump like as anticipated, are they in the Apple store IMMEDIATELY? Or how does that work?

MWSF is the 10th - 14th. When would be the first possible chance for me to buy a powerbook that is supposedly being updated?
 
I plan on getting a 17" PB even if they it does not have a G5 or dual core G4,but do they plan on upgrading such features as an HD LCD, better video card (256mb....maybe).
I'm a n00b about macs, but to they support dual channel ram?
 
alexdotcomm said:
I plan on getting a 17" PB even if they it does not have a G5 or dual core G4,but do they plan on upgrading such features as an HD LCD, better video card (256mb....maybe).
I'm a n00b about macs, but to they support dual channel ram?

They have DDR RAM. By the way, you can look up all Apple's specs here:

http://www.info.apple.com/support/applespec.html

Which also include the kind of RAM each model has and how much each can upgrade to.
 
Dual Channel RAM Question

If I'm not mistaken, don't all G5 models use dual channel RAM? DDR just means Double Data Rate or something like that, just some yada yada stuff like rotary girders or flux capacitors. I'm pretty sure G5's are dual channel, 'cause you want matching pairs to take full advantage of that capability. Don't hate me if I'm wrong, just check out the tech specs pages for the different models on Apple's site.

Update: Just looked around, the G5's DO use dual channel DDR memory. It doesn't clearly state it in the tech specs summary, but it's in the nitty gritty details of some of the reviews when the G5's first came out. This is why you have to upgrade in matching pairs. Hope this helps!
 
You don't have to upgrade with matched pairs, just matched sizes. i think you can actually upgrade without matched sizes, but then dual channel gets automatically disabled, at least that is how it is in PC motherboards...

So DDR, just as an FYI, works like this... if you have a clock that goes up and down and up and down, SDR only moves when the clock goes up... DDR also transfers when the clock goes down.. That's a very over-simplified definition... but that's how it works :)

Dual channel just accesses two banks of ram silmotaneously
 
Apple should give a lot of it's products an update, they need PCIe and DDR2 ram to be able to follow with the new tech.
 
Also if they do that the overall performance will be greatly increased, and since PCIe there will maby be a greater options of graphics cards avaible for macs! :)
 
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