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Who doesn't like 'free' stuff? As long as someone is paying for it, what should the supplier care?

So crack down already, or we will keep sharing our passwords!!!! (or using VPNs)

In the meantime, Ricky Gervais 'SuperNature' is cracking me up....
 
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Nothing, apart from the law, assuming it is enforced, after it was first made clear.

I'm originally from South Africa, so trust me, this happens, all the time, hence the major problem said country is sitting with right now. (search 'Eskom load shedding'. 15 years and counting) But until you can prove I've done something wrong, I'm going to keep doing it! (btw, I meant after the meter)

This is human nature, to push the boundaries (ask my parents about that...). But until someone tells us we have gone too far, and enforces it, with consequences, we are going to keep going, right?

But in the case of Netflix, we are talking about after the meter. 1, 2 or 4 streams is 1, 2 or 4 streams. If you don't like that I'm sharing one of those streams with a neighbour, switch me off, or send the police, with proof of an infraction.
Electricity is different than software service agreements. Nobody cares if you provide power after the meter to your entire neighborhood. They will care if you provide power before the meter. Electricity is a finite pay as you go resource.

If Netflix (or others) charged like the power companies, people wouldn't be throwing their passwords around as they would be responsible for every byte streamed.

In the meantime, the TOS of netflix is the TOS. Abide by it or not.
 
It's kind of interesting -- so many hated the cable "bundle" because of paying for things they personally didn't want/use.

But...what you have here is Netflix trying to "bundle" things again ... packing together some things that some want and others don't, all in service of getting a higher dollar average out of every subscription.

The bundle has just moved down to the individual service level here, as oppose to bundling services (or channels) instead.
Netflix is pay as you go. It's providing a multi-family single household discount.
 
Netflix is pay as you go.

"Pay as you go" vs "contract" has nothing to do with the discussion about feature bundling

raw
 
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Password sharing is one thing, but is there also a thread about the crackdown on VPN use? I'm still trying to get my head around that one too.

I live in Europe. Now suppose I go on holiday to the USA where I buy an actual DVD not available in the USA (those shiny disc things that spin). Am I allowed to take it home (to Europe) to watch it? (I did pay for it, btw)
 
Electricity is different than software service agreements. Nobody cares if you provide power after the meter to your entire neighborhood. They will care if you provide power before the meter. Electricity is a finite pay as you go resource.

If Netflix (or others) charged like the power companies, people wouldn't be throwing their passwords around as they would be responsible for every byte streamed.

In the meantime, the TOS of netflix is the TOS. Abide by it or not.

Ok, don't mind if I don't.

But, can you, or Netflix prove that I or anyone else is in fact in violation of their TOS? Like I keep saying, they are welcome to cut me off if they think I am, and only then will I decide if it's worth fighting for my right, to watch Netflix...

Just like Abe Lincoln said, not everything you read on the internet is true. So even if I insinuate that I share my password, which is apparently against their rather grey TOS, or I use a VPN, it still needs to be proven. 'Pardon the interruption, but it seems like you're using a VPN/Proxy server / sharing your password outside your 'household'...well, either I am or I am not.

Now maybe electricity isn't the best comparison, so how about your local ISP. Even if you have uncapped/unthrottled, many ISPs will come after you if you try running something like a torrent server from home, but for the rest, if you feel like sharing your wifi password with or running a LAN cable to your neighbours, you can. You will however still be bound by some or other TOS / FUP, or you will be cut off.

One of my previous ISPs had a cap of 150GB @100Mbps. When I came close to that, I was warned. But until then, I was free to pretty much do what I wanted. If it was illegal....well, I'm still not in jail. My current ISP says they have a 300GB FUP, after which you are throttled to 5Mbps, but that seems to only apply to downloads, because I think my wife and I streamed well over 400GB last month and they didn't say or do a thing. In other words, until you tell me I am breaking your TOS, I'll assume I'm not.

Point is, Netflix's definition of a household these days doesn't hold water. People move around, people share stuff. They just need to figure out a better way of handling how their product/service is used, or their paying clients will.
 
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It's kind of interesting -- so many hated the cable "bundle" because of paying for things they personally didn't want/use.

The bundle has just moved down to the individual service level here, as oppose to bundling services (or channels) instead.

Exactly.

People always complained about paying $100/month for 500 cable channels when they only watched a handful of channels. People wanted "a la carte" channels which the cable companies would simply never offer due to their deals with the various channel networks.

At least now you can pick-n-choose which streaming services you want at any given time. You don't have to subscribe to every streaming service available. You do have some choice and control now.

It's the closest we'll ever get to "a la carte"

:p
 
Exactly.

People always complained about paying $100/month for 500 cable channels when they only watched a handful of channels. People wanted "a la carte" channels which the cable companies would simply never offer due to their deals with the various channel networks.
At least now you can pick-n-choose which streaming services you want at any given time. You don't have to subscribe to every streaming service available. You do have some choice and control now.
It's the closest we'll ever get to "a la carte":p
Let's also add that live cable channels regularly repeat content several times a month, so it's not like a channel or a bunch of channels offers a wide range of decent ever changing content. Most of the time it's $4.99 bargain bin movies or old TV shows that everyone has seen too many times.

So sVoD sites are infinitely more desirable that 500 cable channels with 98% of channels worthless. That amounts to 10 stations you would use on occasion. :D
 
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Ok, don't mind if I don't.

But, can you, or Netflix prove that I or anyone else is in fact in violation of their TOS?
Yes, by the ip addresses and the devices.
Like I keep saying, they are welcome to cut me off if they think I am, and only then will I decide if it's worth fighting for my right, to watch Netflix...
Sure whatever is best for you.
Just like Abe Lincoln said, not everything you read on the internet is true. So even if I insinuate that I share my password, which is apparently against their rather grey TOS, or I use a VPN, it still needs to be proven. 'Pardon the interruption, but it seems like you're using a VPN/Proxy server / sharing your password outside your 'household'...well, either I am or I am not.
I’m betting that Netflix can kick you off the service and it’s in the tos.
Now maybe electricity isn't the best comparison, so how about your local ISP. Even if you have uncapped/unthrottled, many ISPs will come after you if you try running something like a torrent server from home, but for the rest, if you feel like sharing your wifi password with or running a LAN cable to your neighbours, you can.
No you can’t. Many residential services it’s expressly forbidden. WiFi network is a different story.
You will however still be bound by some or other TOS / FUP, or you will be cut off.
Sure everything has some tos.
One of my previous ISPs had a cap of 150GB @100Mbps. When I came close to that, I was warned. But until then, I was free to pretty much do what I wanted. If it was illegal....well, I'm still not in jail. My current ISP says they have a 300GB FUP, after which you are throttled to 5Mbps, but that seems to only apply to downloads, because I think my wife and I streamed well over 400GB last month and they didn't say or do a thing. In other words, until you tell me I am breaking your TOS, I'll assume I'm not.
Ok.
Point is, Netflix's definition of a household these days doesn't hold water.
According to you anyway.
People move around,
If your legal address is not the household of the account, there is the answer.
people share stuff.
Have to admit that’s a lame excuse.
They just need to figure out a better way of handling how their product/service is used, or their paying clients will.
Well then those who leave will leave. People who have the attitude of “people share stuff”, is the reason this is happening to begin with.
 
"Pay as you go" vs "contract" has nothing to do with the discussion about feature bundling

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Netflix doesnt bundle features. You pay for features, which is pay as you go. Don’t need a meme to make the point.

This isn’t cable. For one price you get x (which is all if Netflix). Add a few bucks and you get y (4K plus all of Netflix), etc.
 
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Yes, by the ip addresses and the devices.
Not a snarky question, but can you please explain this further? For example:

Scenario 1: I buy a new iPad and use my home IP address, then go on vacation to visit my daughter across country at her place.
Scenario 2: I buy my daughter an iPad for Xmas and we set it up at my house, then she travels back after the holidays to use it at her place.

How does Netflix distinguish between these two scenarios?
 
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Not a snarky question, but can you please explain this further? For example:

Scenario 1: I buy a new iPad and use my home IP address, then go on vacation to visit my daughter across country at her place.
Scenario 2: I buy my daughter an iPad for Xmas and we set it up at my house, then she travels back after the holidays to use it at her place.

How does Netflix distinguish between these two scenarios?
I’m guessing that Netflix profiles the devices in an account for each access. Device type, mac address, gateway. Many smart TVs have to be activated; unlike iPhones and iPads where the user and password are entered.

Put all of these patterns together over time and Netflix comes up with a usage pattern for each device that is plugged into some model.
 
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Not a snarky question, but can you please explain this further? For example:

Scenario 1: I buy a new iPad and use my home IP address, then go on vacation to visit my daughter across country at her place.
Scenario 2: I buy my daughter an iPad for Xmas and we set it up at my house, then she travels back after the holidays to use it at her place.

How does Netflix distinguish between these two scenarios?

Scenario 1: As you are the account owner viewing on your device while away from your primary residence, 100% ok.

Scenario 2: If your daughter does not primarily live in your household (physical address) then I guess this would violate the TOS. How would they know this? The iPad is setup in your household once and then is used 100% to view content from a different location, the further the distance the easier it would be to identify. If your daughter lived next door, same ISP, this behavior might never be questioned. If you daughter lives across the country then it is fairly easy to identify. IMHO Netflix is going after scenarios like this, where an account has been shared with people that do not live in the account holders primary residence. They are not going after people that travel for business or pleasure or that have children in college.

Take my situation. I am the account holder, my wife and I have multiple devices to access it, AppleTVs, iPads, iPhones, etc.. She views content within our household 95%+ of the time while I travel extensively and use my iPad to view content remotely. There is no issue with this usage. This habit would be easily recognized as my iPad would be connecting, in short durations, from many different locations.
 
I’m guessing that Netflix profiles the devices in an account for each access. Device type, mac address, gateway. Many smart TVs have to be activated; unlike iPhones and iPads where the user and password are entered.

Put all of these patterns together over time and Netflix comes up with a usage pattern for each device that is plugged into some model.
And if I add more scenario, this idea of using IP addresses and device IDs becomes more and more absurd:

Scenario 3: My daughter lives with us but studies abroad for 3-6 months....or not even abroad....say a temporary research assignment out of state.
Scenario 4: My wife goes to stay with my daughter for a few months after her baby is born.

It seems like it is going to be very difficult for Netflix to develop a reliable usage algorithm that won't find them locking out legitimate users and pissing off their customers. Maybe they don't care. But, this all gets back to my point that the notion of "Household" limitations while charging premium pricing for simultaneous screens is non-sensical.

The entire concept of "Household" seems to be built around the premise that modern families/housholds are stationary and homogenous rather than mobile and varied. It is doomed to fail.
 
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And if I add more scenario, this idea of using IP addresses and device IDs becomes more and more absurd:

Scenario 3: My daughter lives with us but studies abroad for 3-6 months....or not even abroad....say a temporary research assignment out of state.
Scenario 4: My wife goes to stay with my daughter for a few months after her baby is born.

It seems like it is going to be very difficult for Netflix to develop a reliable usage algorithm that won't find them locking out legitimate users and pissing off their customers. Maybe they don't care. But, this all gets back to my point that the notion of "Household" limitations while charging premium pricing for simultaneous screens is non-sensical.

The entire concept of "Household" seems to be built around the premise that modern families/housholds are stationary and homogenous rather than mobile and varied. It is doomed to fail.
With your scenario a college students legal address is still your home, unless said student has an other legal address. Again, possibly profiling a mac address and password gives Netflix information on the usage - even if student has multiple devices. Exceed some threshold and Netflix knows.

Don’t think Netflix wants to curb legitimate use of its services - in spite of the gyrations of varies usages.
 
With your scenario a college students legal address is still your home, unless said student has an other legal address. Again, possibly profiling a mac address and password gives Netflix information on the usage - even if student has multiple devices. Exceed some threshold and Netflix knows.

Don’t think Netflix wants to curb legitimate use of its services - in spite of the gyrations of varies usages.
Yes, the students legal address is my home, but their usage pattern would take them away from our home for extended periods. So, it seems they would be locked out as not part of the household. like I said….it makes no sense.
 
Yes, the students legal address is my home, but their usage pattern would take them away from our home for extended periods. So, it seems they would be locked out as not part of the household. like I said….it makes no sense.
And right now all you have is some situation and you’re assuming that Netflix will catch this as a TOS violation.

We dont know enough to know if it would happen.”, especially is said college student uses the same mac address from the same public ip and not anyone else.
 
No problem with this.
What will they do to the millions of truckers out here. I'm at home using the Netflix account while my husband is on the road using our account. Same home just we are in 2 places, and forbid if he's still on the road and as I also drive for my own company I'm in another state ( not our home state, as in neither of us are in our home state) what then should we need 3 accounts for this. I think not. Just my opinion.
 
What will they do to the millions of truckers out here. I'm at home using the Netflix account while my husband is on the road using our account. Same home just we are in 2 places, and forbid if he's still on the road and as I also drive for my own company I'm in another state ( not our home state, as in neither of us are in our home state) what then should we need 3 accounts for this. I think not. Just my opinion.
Honestly, they don't likely care that much about truckers. They're not going to adjust the rules for each and every job or circumstance out there.

They'll simply make it so once every 30 days or so, you have to connect at home. Much like Adobe and other software with a subscription works when you're offline but need to connect online every 30 days so it can verify your paying.
 
And right now all you have is some situation and you’re assuming that Netflix will catch this as a TOS violation.

We dont know enough to know if it would happen.”, especially is said college student uses the same mac address from the same public ip and not anyone else.
Well, the point is that there are an endless number of very plausible situation in today’s mobile diverse “households”. Not sure how they can write an algorithm for that, but whatever. I have a tenant that is in the military service. He gets reassigned all over the world, but rents a home for his wife and kids so they can stay in our excellent local schools. Sometimes, he is gone for the better part of a year on duty, while his family stays in the rental. I can’t wait for Netflix to locks-out a person serving our country for violating their ridiculous TOS….that will be a nice piece of PR. The list of situations and exceptions just goes on and on.

Here is what Netflix should do: offer legitimate simultaneous streaming options without all of this “household” BS. Adjust the rates to whatever they need to make it viable for them. Then, we users can decide if we want to pay it. I don’t want to navigate a ridiculous labyrinth of TOS with adders for people they think are not part of my “household”, which they can not adequately define btw because of all of the exceptions. Just offer multiple streams and tell me what it costs. Jeez, it’s not like I am going to share my account with 10 people, since I would constantly get booted off. I will share it with my wife and 3 kids, like I do now. I only need 3-4 simultaneous streams max because there is essentially no chance that all 5 of us are watching Netflix at the same time.
 
To all those who are defending Netflix’s TOS: Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone. Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself…

Even movies like Guardians of the Galaxy promote music piracy. Who here has never broken any copyright laws? Has Netflix themselves never broken any tax laws? Who has never broken a speed limit? After all, they are 99% of the time well posted, and if you have a legitimate drivers license you should know the limits; in built up areas in Belgium it’s 50kph, and 120kph on freeways, unless otherwise posted. In other words, you have no excuse if/when you get caught out. Even the Germans are clear enough; just because you see a black /, which cancels all local restrictions, it does not mean you can drive like a complete idiot. They have plenty cameras, things like tailgating are illegal, the guy behind you doing 240kph knows this, but you better get out the way quick because lane hogging is also illegal. However, I have not tested these laws, because I know the punishments are very steep. To be honest, I feel safer driving on the German Autobahn than almost anywhere else, because the rules and penalties are clear. Canada and all of Scandinavia are also a pleasure to drive through.

At the end of the day we are all going to do whatever we think is right and fair, or we will suffer the consequences, whatever they may be.

I honestly don’t know where I stand with Netflix right now. Only time will tell.

I let my sister and her family keep using my Netflix account after my wife and I left her house after spending a sold month there on holiday watching my Netflix on her TV. I even upgraded to 4 screens. But I have since downgraded to 2 and told her she must get her own account and we now share only with my FIL who lives just down the road, and because we still spend enough time with him watching on his TV at his home and his holliday appt in Spain. As far as I’m concerned, we are of the same household. I challenge Netflix to prove otherwise and penalise me accordingly.

Lets look at the thread title: Netflix to begin cracking down…only now? How long have they been going? Why wait so long to enforce what you know has been happening since the beginning. A classic case of bait and switch.

Now suppose I’m homeless, but not in the true sense of the word. I have a legal address, at some friends or family, but I serve in the military, work on oil rigs or cruise ships, or I’m a digital nomad? What then? Am I not allowed to watch Netflix? Point is, the rules of the road in any country are pretty clear, but Netflix’s TOS are not, at least not to me. So, what am I missing? Are they coming after me if any of the above scenarios apply to me? Yes or no?

And all this was typed on mobile while sitting on a park bench, got finger cramp now….but I think I’ve said enough.
 
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Well, the point is that there are an endless number of very plausible situation in today’s mobile diverse “households”. Not sure how they can write an algorithm for that, but whatever. I have a tenant that is in the military service. He gets reassigned all over the world, but rents a home for his wife and kids so they can stay in our excellent local schools. Sometimes, he is gone for the better part of a year on duty, while his family stays in the rental. I can’t wait for Netflix to locks-out a person serving our country for violating their ridiculous TOS….that will be a nice piece of PR. The list of situations and exceptions just goes on and on.

Here is what Netflix should do: offer legitimate simultaneous streaming options without all of this “household” BS. Adjust the rates to whatever they need to make it viable for them. Then, we users can decide if we want to pay it. I don’t want to navigate a ridiculous labyrinth of TOS with adders for people they think are not part of my “household”, which they can not adequately define btw because of all of the exceptions. Just offer multiple streams and tell me what it costs. Jeez, it’s not like I am going to share my account with 10 people, since I would constantly get booted off. I will share it with my wife and 3 kids, like I do now. I only need 3-4 simultaneous streams max because there is essentially no chance that all 5 of us are watching Netflix at the same time.
Is this an appeal to hyperbole? Some unknown situation that hasn't occurred yet. If your military tenants legal address is the apartment that is rented, no problem, right? The TOS of netflix doesn't imply you have to use the service at the "home location". It's true what netflix should do, but I also should be able to give my drivers license and health care card to someone else and let the them use the hospitals service, because I paid for the service and I'm not using it...right? (yes, a hyperbolic example for sure)
To all those who are defending Netflix’s TOS: Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone. Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself…

Even movies like Guardians of the Galaxy promote music piracy. Who here has never broken any copyright laws? Has Netflix themselves never broken any tax laws? Who has never broken a speed limit? After all, they are 99% of the time well posted, and if you have a legitimate drivers license you should know the limits; in built up areas in Belgium it’s 50kph, and 120kph on freeways, unless otherwise posted. In other words, you have no excuse if/when you get caught out. Even the Germans are clear enough; just because you see a black /, which cancels all local restrictions, it does not mean you can drive like a complete idiot. They have plenty cameras, things like tailgating are illegal, the guy behind you doing 240kph knows this, but you better get out the way quick because lane hogging is also illegal. However, I have not tested these laws, because I know the punishments are very steep. To be honest, I feel safer driving on the German Autobahn than almost anywhere else, because the rules and penalties are clear. Canada and all of Scandinavia are also a pleasure to drive through.

At the end of the day we are all going to do whatever we think is right and fair, or we will suffer the consequences, whatever they may be.

I honestly don’t know where I stand with Netflix right now. Only time will tell.

I let my sister and her family keep using my Netflix account after my wife and I left her house after spending a sold month there on holiday watching my Netflix on her TV. I even upgraded to 4 screens. But I have since downgraded to 2 and told her she must get her own account and we now share only with my FIL who lives just down the road, and because we still spend enough time with him watching on his TV at his home and his holliday appt in Spain. As far as I’m concerned, we are of the same household. I challenge Netflix to prove otherwise and penalise me accordingly.

Lets look at the thread title: Netflix to begin cracking down…only now? How long have they been going? Why wait so long to enforce what you know has been happening since the beginning. A classic case of bait and switch.

Now suppose I’m homeless, but not in the true sense of the word. I have a legal address, at some friends or family, but I serve in the military, work on oil rigs or cruise ships, or I’m a digital nomad? What then? Am I not allowed to watch Netflix? Point is, the rules of the road in any country are pretty clear, but Netflix’s TOS are not, at least not to me. So, what am I missing? Are they coming after me if any of the above scenarios apply to me? Yes or no?

And all this was typed on mobile while sitting on a park bench, got finger cramp now….but I think I’ve said enough.
There is a very simple point. You do you. Don't like the service, then drop them. Against the policy, then drop them. I'm not dropping Netflix and if they want a few extra bucks they are getting it. It's worth it for the programming for me and my family.

There is no bait and switch here. Netflix never promulgated what you believe they did or are alluding to -- share the password with the world. Happily, all family members in any household of the service can use netflix (up to the number of streams). They can use netflix on their smart tvs, mobile devices, laptops, and whatever. They can use them anywhere and anytime. So there is no problem. Correct? Want to share the password with your family, you go for it. I am not justifying what netflix is doing, I am saying if you don't like the service for the price then vote with your $$$. Enough do and they will get the message.
 
Is this an appeal to hyperbole? Some unknown situation that hasn't occurred yet. If your military tenants legal address is the apartment that is rented, no problem, right? The TOS of netflix doesn't imply you have to use the service at the "home location". It's true what netflix should do, but I also should be able to give my drivers license and health care card to someone else and let the them use the hospitals service, because I paid for the service and I'm not using it...right? (yes, a hyperbolic example for sure)

There is a very simple point. You do you. Don't like the service, then drop them. Against the policy, then drop them. I'm not dropping Netflix and if they want a few extra bucks they are getting it. It's worth it for the programming for me and my family.

There is no bait and switch here. Netflix never promulgated what you believe they did or are alluding to -- share the password with the world. Happily, all family members in any household of the service can use netflix (up to the number of streams). They can use netflix on their smart tvs, mobile devices, laptops, and whatever. They can use them anywhere and anytime. So there is no problem. Correct? Want to share the password with your family, you go for it. I am not justifying what netflix is doing, I am saying if you don't like the service for the price then vote with your $$$. Enough do and they will get the message.

Fair enough. But on the same token, if Netflix don’t like what I might be doing with their service, drop me already! My ISP/phone provider will cut me off very quick if I don’t abide by their TOS, such as reaching data caps, running torrent servers at home, or not paying my bills. Which begs the eternal question; why has Netflix been dragging their feet on this for so long, just do it, and make it abundantly clear what will happen if their TOS are broken, by enforcing them, right now.

I’m only writing these Pulitzer posts because I too kinda like what they have on offer, been with them for longer than I can remember. I’m just not in full agreement of the way they are offering it, and they don’t seem at all willing to negotiate with loyal paying clients. I guess it’s a big pity they have zero competition…

Bigger companies have crashed and burned, only for someone else to fill the hole and do a better job.

Let’s put it this way, I know exactly where I stand with Apple Music and the way I’m using their service, I know I’m 100% within their TOS, on the other hand, I do not where I stand with Netflix, after all these years. Of all the online services I have ever used, Netflix is the least clear with their TOS.
 
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Fair enough. But on the same token, if Netflix don’t like what I might be doing with their service, drop me already! My ISP/phone provider will cut me off very quick if I don’t abide by their TOS, such as reaching data caps, running torrent servers at home, or not paying my bills. Which begs the eternal question; why has Netflix been dragging their feet on this for so long, just do it, and make it abundantly clear what will happen if their TOS are broken, by enforcing them, right now.
I'm not certain breaking a rule one-time will get you cut off. A late payment will not get you cut off. Getting caught once for a torrent server probably wouldn't get you cut off. I mean you could lobby so that any minor infraction from your ISP will get you an instant deactivation of service. That seems to be what you want Netflix to do.
I’m only writing these Pulitzer posts because I too kinda like what they have on offer, been with them for longer than I can remember. I’m just not in full agreement of the way they are offering it, and they don’t seem at all willing to negotiate with loyal paying clients. I guess it’s a big pity they have zero competition…
Netflix according to posters here has plenty of competition.
Bigger companies have crashed and burned, only for someone else to fill the hole and do a better job.
Sure. Let's be clear though. According to (some) MR posters Apple has been doomed since 2011.
 
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