New Displays at MacWorld?

[AppliedVisual]

Is it true that HP and Dell have exclusive rights to the new Panel and light system till June 30th? So what exactly can Apple come out with? Just a built in iSight?

They can update their displays with iSight.. Seriously, it's not unusual or that big of deal. Dell had exclusive rights to the 24" Samsung panel two years ago with the introduction of the 2405W monitor... This is pretty standard practice in the industry -- there's not enough production volume to supply everyone, so panel makers look for one or two OEMs to secure the initial production runs. It helps leverage costs and provides a continuous production demand (in most situations). The 1st-gen and 2nd-gen panels are still available. Actually the only difference between 2nd and 3rd gen on the 30" panels is the backlight system. It's a brighter, cooler-running light and it helps increase contrast.

All is not lost though... Samsung has 27" 2560x1600 and 32" that's roughly 3200x2000 pixels that should be starting production sometime later this year, although we should see other manufacturers like Hitachi with HDTFT introductions later (and Samsung, too). LG/Philips has a 30" 2560x1600 panel that should be available relatively soon, perhaps Apple will go that route? I think we'll know something at MWSF. It's still possible that Apple could get 30" panels out of Samsung too -- even the newst ones. Both HP and Dell claim to have the exclusive rights to the panel, yet both are offering them... Hmmm. Samsung will release more to other vendors like Apple if they can keep production quantities up... And meet their commitments to HP, Dell or others who are already on the hook. Apple may be there already, but mention of it is under NDA. Who knows... Also, these exclusive deals are usually based on scheduled productions. If Samsung can make the product, fulfill their commitments and still ship more units to Apple and elsewhere, there's nothing to stop them. And the June run-out may end early depending on how fast Samsung delivers initial quantities and how quickly consumers buy them. Seriously, if the new HP/Dell monitors continue to sell like the current ones (and hotcakes and other such things), initial productions could run out before spring time even shows up.

I think we will just have to wait for MWSF.

 

[iRiKliAN]

iSight EOL

This email has been sent to Australian AppleCentres

iSight End Of Life
With the majority of our products now including a built in iSight’s, the standalone product is now end of
life. No further orders will be accepted and no substitution will be performed.
Part No. Description
M8817ZP/C iSight
Kind regards,
Geoff Winder
Product Marketing
Apple Computer Australia Pty Ltd
Ph: 133622
Wednesday, 20th December 2006

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

This email has been sent to Australian AppleCentres

iSight End Of Life
With the majority of our products now including a built in iSight’s, the standalone product is now end of
life. No further orders will be accepted and no substitution will be performed.
Part No. Description
M8817ZP/C iSight
Kind regards,
Geoff Winder
Product Marketing
Apple Computer Australia Pty Ltd
Ph: 133622
Wednesday, 20th December 2006

That's sad. The iSight is such a wonderful piece of kit and any integrated iSight will always lack autofocus. I'm still hoping for an HD iSight.

I still hope they don't put iSights in their displays, the 30" panel's too big to have an unmoveable iSight built in imo.

 

[Zwhaler]

Although I already own an iMac with an iSight, I think that Apple has no reason not to incorporate iSight's into their Cinema Displays in January. I actually have been eying one of those to go along with a MacBook Pro.

 

[Mac Fly (film)]

Although I already own an iMac with an iSight, I think that Apple has no reason not to incorporate iSight's into their Cinema Displays in January. I actually have been eying one of those to go along with a MacBook Pro.

I own an iMac with built-in iSight too, and I think it's not only a good idea, but it has an absolute certainty of happening.

 

[fortetfn]

Don't 23-inch and 30-inch Apple Cinema Displays support HD, but Dell's don't.. If you play some HD stuff on Dell's monitors, it won't display correctly.... I thought that was why ACDs are a little more expensive....

 

[klaus]

No, they say it's HD because the resolution is high enough to play 720 or 1080 HD.

It has no other meaning otherwise, pure marketing talk.. Dell's 30" is as much HD as Apple's is.

 

[fortetfn]

No, they say it's HD because the resolution is high enough to play 720 or 1080 HD.

It has no other meaning otherwise, pure marketing talk.. Dell's 30" is as much HD as Apple's is.

I thought so too before when I was looking for a monitor, because if the resolution is 1920 x 1200, it's the right resolution for it.

However, I read it somewhere on the internet that they compared the two monitors to see how how they would display the HD stuff. They tested the Dell one, it won't display the colour correctly and if you play 1080 stuff, it will reduce the quality. I called Dell already, and they said their 24-inch isn't able to display HD stuff. It's like you can buy a huge TV bigger than 24-inch or 40-inch, but if it's not HDTV, how can it play HD stuff?

 

[dkoralek]

I thought so too before when I was looking for a monitor, because if the resolution is 1920 x 1200, it's the right resolution for it.

However, I read it somewhere on the internet that they compared the two monitors to see how how they would display the HD stuff. They tested the Dell one, it won't display the colour correctly and if you play 1080 stuff, it will reduce the quality. I called Dell already, and they said their 24-inch isn't able to display HD stuff. It's like you can buy a huge TV bigger than 24-inch or 40-inch, but if it's not HDTV, how can it play HD stuff?

Actually, this isn't quite right. The display has enough pixels to display HD (the reason that large sdtvs can't display HD is because they don't have enough pixels). Standard LCDs in the market have similar pixel densities to each other (hence the reason that at a given display size, the panels give the same resolution). The problem, as I have read it at least, is that the DVI interface that Dell uses can only handle 720p HD resolution (maybe just with the protected content using HDCP). The display (the 24" and up) certainly has enough resolution to do 1080.

cheers.

 

[JeffDM]

They're using outdated panels at outdated prices and all the Apple kool-aid I can drink isn't going to make up for a $650 price difference between a 30" ACD and a 30" HP or Dell that has a newer, brighter panel with much higher color fidelity and a larger gamut

Apple did update their entire ACD line in August.

While more colors would be nice (assuming there is a difference with the latest models), I think anyone that thinks they need a brighter display is nuts. I bought a 30" ACD a month or so ago and at its "dimmest" setting, I almost need sunglasses. At its brightest setting, I don't think I need lights to read a book.

It's already been used in the IBM/Hitachi 22" panels with 3840x2400 resolution... Hey, ViewSonic sells monitors based on that panel

BTW: that Viewsonic has been discontinued last I checked. The IBM has been off the market for a couple years now too, with no replacement that I've heard about.

 

[fortetfn]

Apple did update their entire ACD line in August.

While more colors would be nice (assuming there is a difference with the latest models), I think anyone that thinks they need a brighter display is nuts. I bought a 30" ACD a month or so ago and at its "dimmest" setting, I almost need sunglasses. At its brightest setting, I don't think I need lights to read a book.
.

I agree.. I have the 23-inch ACD. The brightness and the configs are the same as the 30-inch one. It's so bright... brighter than those before Aug. So do you think that they are going to revamp it again in Jan?

 

[Aniej]

I love it, if I am on vacation or working out of the office and need to get in touch it is there without being invasive and a load to carry around.

 

[AppliedVisual]

However, I read it somewhere on the internet that they compared the two monitors to see how how they would display the HD stuff. They tested the Dell one, it won't display the colour correctly and if you play 1080 stuff, it will reduce the quality. I called Dell already, and they said their 24-inch isn't able to display HD stuff. It's like you can buy a huge TV bigger than 24-inch or 40-inch, but if it's not HDTV, how can it play HD stuff?

Not sure what you read or where, but the Dell 24" has full 1920x1200 capability and also accepts 1920x1080p EIA/TIA86nB (HDTV) signal via the DVI port. Additionally, the Dell monitor supports HDCP (High Definition Copy Protection), which means you can plug in your DVI equipped satellite/cable receivers, DVR units, HD-DVD or Blu-Ray units as well. The Apple displays won't allow this since they can't display HDCP content. In terms of connecting via DVI (or HDMI via the proper cable), the Dell monitors are capable of accepting and displaying more signal types than the Apple ones.

Now, the Dell also has Y/Pb/Pr component, VGA and composite/s.video inputs. The component input does accept up to 1080i HD input. It displays 720p HDTV signals just great and does an admirable job of scaling them or you can have it leave them at the native resolution and centered. Where the signal quality really takes a dive is with 1920x1080i input via component... Unfortunately, the Dell monitor does something that a lot of HDTV sets do and that's throw-away a lot of the signal information. It has a horrible de-interlacer and it essentially does a very basic line-double average and stretches every other field of video to make a full frame. To simplify that statement, when you view 1080i via component input (or analog VGA), you get crappy "bob and weave" de-interlacing performed on a 1920x540 frame. You only get to see half of the pixel information coming into the monitor. Yuck. Add to that, VGA connections to the Dell 20" and 24" monitors tend to be noisy and exhibit such undesirable things as ripples, waves and ghosting. Even blurs and sparkles.

The Dell 24" and 30" (and even their 20") are all pretty nice monitors, especially for the money. I own several and have been pleased with them... However, don't connect them with anything other than a proper DVI or HDMI to DVI cable and video source.

As for calling Dell and being told that the monitor "doesn't display HD stuff", you were told incorrectly. It was probably a salesperson who is unfamiliar with the product or not sure what you were asking.

Apple did update their entire ACD line in August.

While more colors would be nice (assuming there is a difference with the latest models), I think anyone that thinks they need a brighter display is nuts. I bought a 30" ACD a month or so ago and at its "dimmest" setting, I almost need sunglasses. At its brightest setting, I don't think I need lights to read a book.

They didn't bump the 30" - still using the 1st gen samsung panel. The only monitor that I am aware of them changing panels in back in August with the price adjustment was the 23". And that's because they *finally* moved away from the Hitachi model that was giving so many people the pink tint -- I own a few of those too, they suck, I hate pink. But the only reason for them to continue with the 23" form factor at all is becuase they weren't ready yet to revamp their production line and build new monitor chassis. The 23" Hitachi panel is now marked as EOL so I wonder what Apple will do. The only other panel maker with a 23" offering is LG/Philips. And I don't know why Apple didn't switch over to their LM23W02Ux, which sells for about 10% less per 1000 than the Hitachi they're using and is a superior panel. LG/Philips also offers a 24" and is taking orders for a 30". So it's not like Apple doesn't have options.

BTW: that Viewsonic has been discontinued last I checked. The IBM has been off the market for a couple years now too, with no replacement that I've heard about.

The IBM version of the 22" was actually OEM'd by ViewSonic for IBM. ViewSonic has discontinued that model due to HDTFT displays coming soon and they're working with Hitachi and Sanyo as an HDTFT partner... The older 22" 3840x2400 panel system is essentially HDTFT tech, but based on an older fab process and too expensive to continue with. Those monitors are still available though as there is stock to be had out there. I can have one shipped to you for a bit less than $6K if you're interested.

I agree.. I have the 23-inch ACD. The brightness and the configs are the same as the 30-inch one. It's so bright... brighter than those before Aug. So do you think that they are going to revamp it again in Jan?

There's more to the newer panels than just brightness. The current 23" panel is just as bright as the latest 24" panel from Samsung or the 23" and 24" from LG... Possibly brighter than the LG. But the Samsung and LG panels both have better pixel response and contrast.

They will have to change their 23" offering at some point soon. If not at MWSF, for sure by NAB. Those Hitachi panels are going to run out at some point. But like I said above, they have options. My real gripe with Apple and their ACD line is the 30". Why are they the only major computer company with their own displays, not offering the 2nd gen Samsung panel? 3rd gen panels are shipping now and HP is selling them... Dell to begin shipping them like any day now - literally. Perhaps Apple skipped gen 2 and will go straight to gen 3 with a feature bump (iSight?) at MWSF. Then I guess it wouldn't be a big deal... I think we're just seeing typical Apple product evolution here. They update products at their internally devised intervals, even if it means skipping a generation of CPUs, display panels, or other hardware offerings that all the me-too, look I have a new CPU every 20 days, PC companies offer. Would've been nice if they would have adjusted the ACD pricing more in line with the rest of the industry back in August. Granted, their prices do match MSRP from some other big names - Sony, HP, etc.. But Apple sets their prices... Sony and HP can be bought for 15% off MSRP every day and often better than that. So in the end, if we want the matching Apple display, we still get a fine product that looks cooler than most other products out there, but we pay that 20% "Apple tax". ...Not cool when you need to buy 4 x 30" displays in one shot.

 

[fortetfn]

Not sure what you read or where, but the Dell 24" has full 1920x1200 capability and also accepts 1920x1080p EIA/TIA86nB (HDTV) signal via the DVI port. Additionally, the Dell monitor supports HDCP (High Definition Copy Protection), which means you can plug in your DVI equipped satellite/cable receivers, DVR units, HD-DVD or Blu-Ray units as well. The Apple displays won't allow this since they can't display HDCP content. In terms of connecting via DVI (or HDMI via the proper cable), the Dell monitors are capable of accepting and displaying more signal types than the Apple ones.

Now, the Dell also has Y/Pb/Pr component, VGA and composite/s.video inputs. The component input does accept up to 1080i HD input. It displays 720p HDTV signals just great and does an admirable job of scaling them or you can have it leave them at the native resolution and centered. Where the signal quality really takes a dive is with 1920x1080i input via component... Unfortunately, the Dell monitor does something that a lot of HDTV sets do and that's throw-away a lot of the signal information. It has a horrible de-interlacer and it essentially does a very basic line-double average and stretches every other field of video to make a full frame. To simplify that statement, when you view 1080i via component input (or analog VGA), you get crappy "bob and weave" de-interlacing performed on a 1920x540 frame. You only get to see half of the pixel information coming into the monitor. Yuck. Add to that, VGA connections to the Dell 20" and 24" monitors tend to be noisy and exhibit such undesirable things as ripples, waves and ghosting. Even blurs and sparkles.

The Dell 24" and 30" (and even their 20") are all pretty nice monitors, especially for the money. I own several and have been pleased with them... However, don't connect them with anything other than a proper DVI or HDMI to DVI cable and video source.

As for calling Dell and being told that the monitor "doesn't display HD stuff", you were told incorrectly. It was probably a salesperson who is unfamiliar with the product or not sure what you were asking.

I thought if you get a HDTV box for ACDs, you can display HD content. But that thing isn't cheap...
but EyeTV is not too expensive...

 

[dkoralek]

I thought if you get a HDTV box for ACDs, you can display HD content. But that thing isn't cheap...
but EyeTV is not too expensive...

i don't believe that you can play protected content with eyetv. i.e. you can play hd channels from an antenna or ones that your cable/sat provider has left unencrypted.

cheers.

 

[JeffDM]

They didn't bump the 30" - still using the 1st gen samsung panel. The only monitor that I am aware of them changing panels in back in August with the price adjustment was the 23".

I might have been wrong on the month, the contrast ratio spec for the 30" was upped from 400:1 to 700:1 in March.

Those monitors are still available though as there is stock to be had out there. I can have one shipped to you for a bit less than $6K if you're interested.

I think the high density monitors can be found on eBay for a little over a thousand. But I don't plan on using one if I can't get 30Hz frame rate out of a dual link connector.

 

[AppliedVisual]

I thought if you get a HDTV box for ACDs, you can display HD content. But that thing isn't cheap...
but EyeTV is not too expensive...

Well sure that works. Like the Gefen HD Mate - $349. It's one of the better ones it seems, even though it's only a pre-order item right now. But others like it exist. Actually Gefen did have a component only version of the HD Mate, but they have discontinued it in favor of the new one that also supports DVI-HDCP input and it strips the HDCP off so you can view it on the Apple Cinema Displays or other non-HDCP DVI based displays.

EyeTV is a different animal in that it lets your computer do all the conversion and then just send out the video in a regular window or scaled to full-screen.

All these monitors, Apple ACD, Dell, Samsung, Sony, HP, etc.. can display "HDTV" or video in resolutions of HDTV (or higher in some cases). The point is that you must have the proper way of delivering your HD source material to the display. The ACDs only accept a certain number of standard resolutions, some of which are HDTV standard pixel dimensions. However they don't support the EIA/TIA861B formatted signals output by HDTV devices and they don't support HDCP - thus you need to translate the signal in some manner. Other newer monitors on the market (yes, like the Dell) now support HDTV signal timings and HDCP - some models like their 24" also add component inputs right on the monitor so you can connect your XBOX 360, HD satellite tuner or other HD component device directly to that monitor and run it at 720p or 1080i without extra hardware or software. Back when Apple first introduced the current Cinema Display models, none of the Dell or other brand monitors supported any of these HDTV signal timings or HDCP... They have all adopted them since then, Apple has not updated. I am assuming that Apple will update displays at MWSF and will be shocked if they do not... It's well past time for them to do so.

I might have been wrong on the month, the contrast ratio spec for the 30" was upped from 400:1 to 700:1 in March.

Hmmm... That may be. Although, that would still be the 1st gen panel at 700:1. Sounds like they just updated the backlight system, which Samsung had a couple options for up until recently. The 2nd gen Samsung panels are rated at 1000:1 and 3rd gen panels are 1200:1 rated and 1600:1 w/dynamic contrast. ...Yeah, the 30" 3rd gen now have the dynamic backlight system like their LCD HDTV displays. If Apple goes with LG for their 30" panel, the contrast will still be rated at 700:1, but I can't comment on color or anything else with the LG since these panels have only just started shipping.

I think the high density monitors can be found on eBay for a little over a thousand. But I don't plan on using one if I can't get 30Hz frame rate out of a dual link connector.

Could be... I know one supplier in the area here that still has a few in stock. I personally wouldn't want one... It soaks up both dual-link DVI ports on a card like the FX4500 or the ATI X1900 to run that one display at 3840x2400. Although, what is cool about that 22" panel is it supports multiple refresh rates and isn't locked at 60Hz like most LCDs. You can run it at 24Hz, 48Hz and 50Hz... But it has poor pixel response, the color fidelity is terribly and contrast sucks. They also never solved the problem of image shearing and tearing between the two halves of the display. The computer thinks you're running two monitors when connected to one of these. You set it up in your display properties as the primary monitor at 3840x1200 on top and the second one at the same res directly below it.

 

[JeffDM]

EyeTV is a different animal in that it lets your computer do all the conversion and then just send out the video in a regular window or scaled to full-screen.

It's barely that. I have one and do appreciate the ability to play over the air HD but that's about it, and it definitely requires the computer to be on to operate at all. You won't believe the "discussions" I've had with people that somehow thought that some EyeTV has component or other HD input.

 

[dkoralek]

Well sure that works. Like the Gefen HD Mate - $349. It's one of the better ones it seems, even though it's only a pre-order item right now. But others like it exist. Actually Gefen did have a component only version of the HD Mate, but they have discontinued it in favor of the new one that also supports DVI-HDCP input and it strips the HDCP off so you can view it on the Apple Cinema Displays or other non-HDCP DVI based displays.

Are you sure that this is the case? It isn't clear from the product page that it actually removes the hdcp encryption, but that it will accept an hdcp signal (so is it possible that it just passes the encryption through; as i recall, every device in the chain needs to be hdcp compliant unless the encryption has been removed).

cheers.

 

[AppliedVisual]

Are you sure that this is the case? It isn't clear from the product page that it actually removes the hdcp encryption, but that it will accept an hdcp signal (so is it possible that it just passes the encryption through; as i recall, every device in the chain needs to be hdcp compliant unless the encryption has been removed).

I don't know for sure if it works that way... Although, based on the claims that it accepts an HDCP signal and can pass it to an Apple Cinema Display -- then it would have to be stripping HDCP off of their as the ADCs currently don't support HDCP. Unless Gefen knows something we don't... Or perhaps it doesn't do this. They don't specifically say it will send HDCP encoded video to an ACD, they just say that it accepts HDCP and that the HD Mate is ideal for an ACD. The device could protect HDCP content and if the display (like an ADC) is not HDCP capable, then it just won't transmit through... The DVI input on the HD Mate is more than just a pass-through, it's a scaler. But most DVI/HDMI/HDTV scalers out there preserve HDCP through scaling operations and maybe that's all we're seeing here. I suppose I could ask them next week... I need to call Gefen on another matter on tuesday.

Anyway, you have it right -- Technically, HDCP signals must be passed from one HDCP compliant device to another and if the HDCP capability is lost, so is the signal transmission. The signal must be transcoded to strip the HDCP, which isn't a big deal, but requires a fair bit of hardware to do it. ...Not going to produce and sell such a device right now for less than $250 or so. While I can't say for sure whether or not the HD Mate strips HDCP, there are other products on the market that do this.

It's barely that. I have one and do appreciate the ability to play over the air HD but that's about it, and it definitely requires the computer to be on to operate at all. You won't believe the "discussions" I've had with people that somehow thought that some EyeTV has component or other HD input.

No component inputs on EyeTV? Ah, that sucks... Kinda defeats the purpose of buying one... But I've noticed that with most PC HDTV interfaces, cards, etc.. out there. They're only an ATSC tuner and some have Cable/QAM tuner capability as well.

 

[3CCD]

lets see another price drop and I'll care about new cinema displays.

Yep, I agree. Apple with out a doubt makes wonderful displays, but one thing that makes them 100% more attractive is good prices. Price drops would be fabulous or how about the same prices for bigger displays?

 

[karmacoma62]

value

Yep, I agree. Apple with out a doubt makes wonderful displays, but one thing that makes them 100% more attractive is good prices. Price drops would be fabulous or how about the same prices for bigger displays?


that is more or less what it comes down to, unfortunatly.
i am very sorry to say (and to believe) this, but i deeply feel this low price point for displays is necesssary for apple.
regarding a built in isight cam, or built in sensors - fine, but the bottom line for displays is going to be price.

my strong prediction is that apple will first use built-in sensor technology in a phone, and that the phone will be sort of a plug-in, additive element for displays....
watch and learn

 

[Porco]

Not sure if this is the right thread to post this idea in or not and apologies if I'm not the first to have this idea but...

I would really like to very simple thing, display-wise from Apple - build in a few TV/computer display - like sockets and a button or two into the iMac.

This would serve at least two functions;

1) An instant HD TV for cable/satelite/digital TV boxes, DVD players, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players

2) Keeps the computer useful much longer if/when upgrading to, say a Mac Pro or other headless Mac (a future mini etc).

Perhaps this is indeed what might happen with the displays - given the ability to hook up normal consumer video kit to them more easily they would become much better value (IMHO), but if they added the same options to the iMacs it would give people who wouldn't usually consider an all-in-one machine an extra incentive. The possibility of running the iMac in a display-only mode (a simple switch at the back could do it) would mean you could keep it for simple tasks in the future, or just forget it's a computer altogether as you desired.

Anyway, just an idea. Thoughts welcome.

 

[dambro1978]

maybe this.

possible new cinema displays with intergrated iTV?
just a gut feeling-

happy to be back in the macworld-hype, it was a long time since I had this excitement before an apple event!!!

ANdrea Italy

 

[vendettabass]

gimme a 1920 x 1200 20' display and i'll be happy happy ...