New G4 iBooks

[Stelliform]

Re: Re: Re: iBook == Consumer =/ CHEAP!

Originally posted by bankshot
Apple as a company simply isn't interested in making a $500 piece of crap computer that sucks just to gain marketshare. So while I'm sure they'd love to offer a quality lower end computer at sub $500 prices and maintain profitability, it simply can't be done.

I think the $799 eMac counts as a budget computer. (And I think it is high quality...) I have had trouble beating that price on Dell. (With monitor...)

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Has anyone noticed that on the 14" build-to-order options, you can replace the combo with a CD-ROM drive (takes the price down £80) but you can't on the 12" model. Seems like a strange option, considering as I earlier commented on the fact that today saw the end of the CD-ROM-only Mac being sold.

Edu buyers can still configure the 12" with CD-ROM. Which is great because that means a 12" G4 iBook with CD-ROM costs the same to Edu users as the 12" G3 iBook with CD-ROM did before.

 

[Dros]

Re: Re: max memory?

Originally posted by jettredmont
No, it does not mean support for 1GB SO-DIMMs.

It says "One open SO-DIMM slot", in addition to the on-board RAM and the one slot that is filled with some amount of memory in each shipped configuration.

This means that you would be able to (today) go out and buy a 512MB memory stick and add that to your iBook for a total of 1.125GB of RAM.

So you are saying the iBook has built in memory (128 MB), a memory slot filled by one of the BTO options, and a second memory slot? That would be great, but everything else I've seen suggests otherwise. The powerbook tech specs say:


256MB of PC2100 (266MHz) DDR SDRAM; one open SO-DIMM slot; support for up to 1.25GB (12-inch models)

256MB or 512MB of PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SDRAM; two SO-DIMM slots support up to 2GB (15-inch models)

which seems to differentiate between 1 slot vs 2 for the different size Powerbooks.

 

[nologo]

Re: Re: max memory?

Originally posted by jettredmont
No, it does not mean support for 1GB SO-DIMMs.

It says "One open SO-DIMM slot", in addition to the on-board RAM and the one slot that is filled with some amount of memory in each shipped configuration.

This means that you would be able to (today) go out and buy a 512MB memory stick and add that to your iBook for a total of 1.125GB of RAM.

Their math doesn't add up, though, unless the on-board RAM can also be upped to 256MB through minor surgery. You can't get 1.25GB of RAM if you start off with one unmatched 128MB chunk of memory ...

Um, i don't think that math adds up either...

You said one open SO-DIMM slot, and you said you can buy a 512 mb memory stick and add to that your ibook. That would equate to 640 megs of ram total.

The only way to get 1.1 (or 1.2) gigs of ram is to have support for a 1 Gig SO-DIMM.

 

[theRebel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: iBook == Consumer =/ CHEAP!

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Everywhere. Almost everything written about the G4 since 1999 in print and on the web, and in Apple's advertising, says the G4 is a PowerPC processor with Velocity Engine. Not to mention Motorola's use of the term G4.

Based upon that "definition" (if you can call it that), the G5 would be a G4.

Also, if having Altivec were part of the definition of G4 then saying that a computer had a G4 with Velocity Engine would be redundant.

I have never seen an official definition of G4 and, based upon what you presented here, apparently neither have you. Without an official definition published somewhere, Apple could introduce a G4 without Altivec and there would not be any violation of truth in advertising.

It is not that I really think that Apple would, but the lack of any reference to Altivec or Velocity Engine in the new iBook specs is somewhat disconcerting.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: Re: Re: Re: iBook == Consumer =/ CHEAP!

Originally posted by Stelliform
I think the $799 eMac counts as a budget computer. (And I think it is high quality...) I have had trouble beating that price on Dell. (With monitor...)

Really? How about a dimension 2400 with 128mb ram, 40gb 7200rpm HD, CD-RW/DVD, and a 17" monitor for $618 (before coupons and discounts)? E-Value Code: 6V374 - D24RS for the record. Maybe not as friendly as a mac for a newbie (although possibly easier for someone who knows Windows already, or a newbie whose friends know Windows and can help out - an issue that Apple still has to overcome).

Macs are pretty cool systems, but when it comes to competing on price they still aren't playing with the cheaper systems, even from major manufacturers (and no, I don't count KMart PCs as quality systems). But for the low-end space, a 30% price premium is pretty stiff for people to pay to get in the game. Which is fine, since Apple is (currently) yielding the low-end space (and I'm not even getting into the $250 ultra-low-end low-quality space here).

For a more direct price comparison, check out code 6W300 - dim46min and add the free DVD reader, the optional 2nd CD-RW player, and the 17" LCD display. Total price? $768, even including 256mb or RAM (double the Mac).

Apple can compete - just not on price (at least, not at the low-end (sub $1000)).

-Richard

 

[Plutoniq]

Originally posted by wdlove
Goodbye and good luck G3, may you rest in peace. The new G4 iBook should be a great machine for students.

Yes, I have to say that's it's sad to see the G3 go. The PowerPC 750GX is really an outstanding processor which could have continued the Ibooks reputation of low-heat & long battery life.

It may be a blessing for upgrade companies though, with Apple dropping the G3. For example, IBM have been selling there upcoming PPC 750GX to CompactPCI companies for about 2 months now....... but Mac upgrade companies are probably withheld from purchasing these CPU's until Apple have actually released there product containing the same Processor. This would be in the contract no doubt..... The logic of this is understandable. Take the PowerPC 7457, for example, it is only just now that these are available to Mac upgrade companies to use in there upgrades.

So, the fact that Apple no longer purchases G3's from IBM now, means that there is nothing blocking the path of upgrade companies using the very fastest G3's available in the channel.....no waiting for Apple's product roadmap.

The G3 is not dead....... IBM sell a whole heap of these in other market areas than Personal Computing...... I think we'll be seeing alot faster G3's announced from IBM in the future, no doubt, as this is great news to mac upgraders.....

 

[DakotaGuy]

Re: Re: Re: Moto G4 / IBM G3?

Originally posted by rdowns
If you had a million dollars, you wouldn't be using an

iMac DV 400 "Blueberry" named "Macky"

or an

iBook 600 Combo Drive named "Booker"

Hey don't slam my Macs! They are all I have and what I can afford for now. You can make fun of Macky and Booker, but they have been stable dependable machines from the day I bought each of them new. I would love to have a new computer, but I just don't have the money right now. I am glad they are dependable enough that I don't need a new computer right now. Slam PC's if you wanna slam someone's computers not my Macs.

I was just saying if I had the money to bet. It was just a figure of speech. I am a public school teacher so I will probably never see a million, unless I someday get money smart and get out of the business of educating kids.

 

[ThorPrime]

OMG

And to think I was about to purchase a 12" Powerbook, Now I can get a 14" iBook G4 with better specs for the same $1,399. Makes you wonder who's gonna buy 12" powerbooks anymore.

 

[Plutoniq]

Re: Re: Re: max memory?

Originally posted by nologo
Um, i don't think that math adds up either...

You said one open SO-DIMM slot, and you said you can buy a 512 mb memory stick and add to that your ibook. That would equate to 640 megs of ram total.

The only way to get 1.1 (or 1.2) gigs of ram is to have support for a 1 Gig SO-DIMM.

Perhaps it is similiar to how the Powerbook 1400 was configured with RAM. It had RAM soldered to the board (8mb), an "APPLE ONLY" RAM slot that was fixed (either 4mb or 8mb), and then finally one "Open" RAM slot that that could take third-party RAM.

So, maybe........

128mb Soldered to the board (Fixed). 128mb in the "Apple Only" RAM slot (Fixed).....and then one "Open" RAM slot to take third-party RAM (Up to 1024mb).

This would come out to...... 1280mb RAM.....that's kinda close to the 1.25gb in the tech specs.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: iBook == Consumer =/ CHEAP!

Originally posted by theRebel
Based upon that "definition" (if you can call it that), the G5 would be a G4.

I didn't call it a definition. It's an essential characteristic, not a definition. The G5 is a 64-bit IBM processor with Velocity Engine.

Originally posted by theRebel
Also, if having Altivec were part of the definition of G4 then saying that a computer had a G4 with Velocity Engine would be redundant.

Indeed. So is this phrase from the PowerBook G4 web page:

The new PowerBook G4s feature the speedy new AirPort Extreme technology, based on the 802.11g standard — at 54Mbps, the fastest wireless connection available.

That's *triple* redundancy. It's called emphasis, it's called good marketing. When AirPort Extreme isn't hot **** anymore, they're not going to have the same triple redundancy. Now, if Apple made AirPort Extreme suddenly become 802.11a, not 802.11g, that would still be false advertising.

Originally posted by theRebel
I have never seen an official definition of G4 and, based upon what you presented here, apparently neither have you. Without an official definition published somewhere, Apple could introduce a G4 without Altivec and there would not be any violation of truth in advertising.

It is not that I really think that Apple would, but the lack of any reference to Altivec or Velocity Engine in the new iBook specs is somewhat disconcerting.

Velocity Engine isn't really hot **** anymore, and even if it was, the consumer market is not where people act like they need it. Does Intel advertise MMX anymore? Or even SSE2? The consumer understands that a G4 has Velocity Engine. If you sold a G3 as a G4, that would be false advertising.

 

[Sun Baked]

Re: Re: Re: Re: max memory?

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Perhaps it is similiar to how the Powerbook 1400 was configured with RAM. It had RAM soldered to the board (8mb), an "APPLE ONLY" RAM slot that was fixed (either 4mb or 8mb), and then finally one "Open" RAM slot that that could take third-party RAM.

So, maybe........

128mb Soldered to the board (Fixed). 128mb in the "Apple Only" RAM slot (Fixed).....and then one "Open" RAM slot to take third-party RAM (Up to 1024mb).

This would come out to...... 1280mb RAM.....that's kinda close to the 1.25gb in the tech specs.

It's going to be a lot like the PB12 (pictured below) except 128MB RAM soldered, 7445 rev F or G, and the ATI video.

Since the PB12 supports 1GB RAM in the open slot, the iBook G4 should also.

So if the PB12 supports 1.25GB, the iBook is 128MB less.

 

[nologo]

Re: max memory?

Originally posted by Dros
The tech specs say:
Processor and memory

* 800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed
* 133 MHZ system bus
* One of the following memory configurations:
o 256MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 128MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 384MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 256MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 640MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 512MB in SO-DIMM slot)
* One open SO-DIMM slot; support for up to 1.25GB

What is the meaning of that last line, the open SO-DIMMM with support for up to 1.25 GB?

Where was this, exactly?

Here's the page as I see it now, and yes, this is everything under "Processor and Memory" (http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html)

 

[Archmage]

Which G4?

I just called 1-800-MY-APPLE and asked which G4 and the sales rep told me, "From what I've been told, it's the first model of G4's."

*shrug*

 

[Lancetx]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: iBook == Consumer =/ CHEAP!

Originally posted by rjstanford
Really? How about a dimension 2400 with 128mb ram, 40gb 7200rpm HD, CD-RW/DVD, and a 17" monitor for $618 (before coupons and discounts)? E-Value Code: 6V374 - D24RS for the record. Maybe not as friendly as a mac for a newbie (although possibly easier for someone who knows Windows already, or a newbie whose friends know Windows and can help out - an issue that Apple still has to overcome).

Apple can compete - just not on price (at least, not at the low-end (sub $1000)).

-Richard

You have to make sure to take everything into account though. You can't forget that the software bundle with the eMacs is superior than with the Dell systems unless you add XP Professional and the Works Suite (or something equivalent). Plus you would need to add for FireWire, a real graphics card, a Fax/Modem, speakers and some of the other items that are standard on an eMac, but are not always on the Dimension models. Not to mention that the display on the eMac is superior to the basic 17" Dell monitor, you need to step up to their higher end 17" monitor to get the same quality IMO. After all of that is said and done, the price premium for the Apple isn't going to be 30%.

Not including some of the coupon discounts that may be out there, etc, I come up with a Dimension 2400 that is $823 that would be comparable (yet it still doesn't have FireWire and it only has "integrated graphics") to the $799 eMac that is currently available...so I honestly don't see what price premium you're talking about.

 

[latergator116]

still looks as if appls is selling the g3. they are selling the old iBook low end model

 

[x86isslow]

Originally posted by latergator116
Do these now have the nice new keyboards like the powerbooks?

if you mean back-lit keyboards, then NO. it took months for apple to bring that feature from the 17in to the 15. and if i'm not mistaken, its not available on the 12inpb. so no go on those nice keyboards for consumer line portables (this revision at least).

 

[QCassidy352]

Re: OMG

Originally posted by ThorPrime
And to think I was about to purchase a 12" Powerbook, Now I can get a 14" iBook G4 with better specs for the same $1,399. Makes you wonder who's gonna buy 12" powerbooks anymore.

How does the ibook have better specs? Let's compare:
-same processor and bus speed
-double the cache on the powerbook
-twice the built in RAM on the PB meaning a higher possible capacity. I'm not sure if the ibook will take a 1 gig chip, but the PB definitely will.
-PB graphics card is still better than the Radeon 9200. See the link to the comparison many pages back.
-bluetooth built in on the PB, extra cost option on the ibook.
-larger HD on the ibook (60 to 40)
-DVI on the PB, not the ibook.
-monitor spanning on the PB, mirroring only on the ibook.
-14" screen vs. 12" screen, but at same resolution. And the smaller screen makes the PB lighter and more portable.
-Al vs. plastic. But that does make the ibook more durable.

The L2 cache is the big issue. The 900 mhz G3 ibook beat the 867 12" PB on about half the tests, mostly because the G3 had twice the cache, not because of the extra 33 mhz. That was a G4 with 256 L2 and no L3, just like this one.

By comparison, the new 12" and 15" 1 Ghz albooks actually run even with (or beat) the 1 Ghz Tibook that had 1 MB L3 cache.

Ok, that's it, unless I'm missing something. So how does the ibook even come close to winning? from where I sit, the PB is by far the better deal.

 

[QCassidy352]

Originally posted by gotohamish
Okay smart boy, but I have both next to me, every day, and in EVERYDAY use, the TiBook is faster.

Faster in the finder, faster in all apps, perhaps not for gamers, but I don't play games on them.

I'm only telling it as I see it.

well fine, I can't tell you that you don't experience what you say you do, but what you're claming goes against every bit of logic out there.

Powerbook:
500 mhz G4
100 mhz bus speed
8 megs VRAM on an ATI Rage Mobility

ibook:
900 mhz G3
100 mhz bus speed
32 megs VRAM on an ATI Radeon 7500

The ibook should absolutely *demolish* the powerbook except on altivec tasks. The PB can't even run QE! Unless you're using like 128 RAM in the ibook and a gig in the PB, I don't see how it's possible. But I can't speak to your machines specifically, only to those models in general.

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by x86isslow
if you mean back-lit keyboards, then NO. it took months for apple to bring that feature from the 17in to the 15. and if i'm not mistaken, its not available on the 12inpb. so no go on those nice keyboards for consumer line portables (this revision at least).

I think he means a solid keyboard, as opposed to a keyboard that you pop up to install RAM.

I think that since these are the same industrial design (almost) as the previous rendition, no.

 

[flipflash77]

Re: Re: max memory?

Originally posted by nologo
Where was this, exactly?

Here's the page as I see it now, and yes, this is everything under "Processor and Memory" (http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html)

I believe it was removed because it was in error. The Canadian site says:

Single 1.25-inch standard SO-DIMM slot (3.3V) supports up to 512MB SO-DIMM for a total of 640MB of SDRAM

That more accurately reflects the 128MB soldered onto the motherboard. Also goes with the theory that it's the same basic reference design as in the 12" PBG4. <shrug> Blame the guy who copy-and-pasted the iBook tech specs from the PBG4 page.

 

[latergator116]

I think he means a solid keyboard, as opposed to a keyboard that you pop up to install RAM.

I think that since these are the same industrial design (almost) as the previous rendition, no.

Yes, thats what i meant. It would have been nice if they put in those nice keyboards. They must have had to redesign the airport card slot for the new AE card, but i have never seen an AE card in real life so i dont know exactly how big it is. I was just thinking that ever since AE came out for the powerbooks, they put them on the bottom of the computer so they would do the same for the iBook.

 

[joker2]

Re: max memory?

Originally posted by Dros
The tech specs say:
Processor and memory

* 800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed
* 133 MHZ system bus
* One of the following memory configurations:
o 256MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 128MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 384MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 256MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 640MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 512MB in SO-DIMM slot)
* One open SO-DIMM slot; support for up to 1.25GB

What is the meaning of that last line, the open SO-DIMMM with support for up to 1.25 GB?

Out of sheer curiosity, where did you find these specs? I've been looking all over the apple site trying to find that last line!

(edit: oops, looks like the question was already answered a few posts above...)

 

[ThorPrime]

Re: Re: OMG

Originally posted by QCassidy352
How does the ibook have better specs? Let's compare:
-same processor and bus speed
-double the cache on the powerbook
-twice the built in RAM on the PB meaning a higher possible capacity. I'm not sure if the ibook will take a 1 gig chip, but the PB definitely will.
-PB graphics card is still better than the Radeon 9200. See the link to the comparison many pages back.
-bluetooth built in on the PB, extra cost option on the ibook.
-larger HD on the ibook (60 to 40)
-DVI on the PB, not the ibook.
-monitor spanning on the PB, mirroring only on the ibook.
-14" screen vs. 12" screen, but at same resolution. And the smaller screen makes the PB lighter and more portable.
-Al vs. plastic. But that does make the ibook more durable.

The L2 cache is the big issue. The 900 mhz G3 ibook beat the 867 12" PB on about half the tests, mostly because the G3 had twice the cache, not because of the extra 33 mhz. That was a G4 with 256 L2 and no L3, just like this one.

By comparison, the new 12" and 15" 1 Ghz albooks actually run even with (or beat) the 1 Ghz Tibook that had 1 MB L3 cache.

Ok, that's it, unless I'm missing something. So how does the ibook even come close to winning? from where I sit, the PB is by far the better deal.

14" screen at the same rez is a better idea to me
I'de rather have VGA and S-video than DVI any day of the week for presentations and I'de never use spanning.
I'de never use bluetooth, ever
I'de rather have plastic than alu any day of the week.

the iBook wins in my opinion.

 

[x86isslow]

Originally posted by lewdvig
My bet is that it has the new 750 from IBM. Apple can call it whatever they want.

Who amoung us will be so brave as to open an iBook up?

i dunno the spelling but kodiswaran? usually posts pictures of dissected macs on their site.