New Mac Pro upgradability.

[flat five]

In other word, why don't you just admit to yourself that you were wrong and move on. Stop trying to turn this around, you are just digging a bigger hole...

seriously, i have no problem whatsoever admitting i'm wrong.. in fact, i wish someone would prove me wrong -- that's half the fun of arguing..

it's just that it's so blatantly obvious a user will be able to work on this computer beyond swapping ram (and ssd) that i can't admit i'm wrong.. sorry if that sounds arrogant or whatever but that's just how it is.. probably the best thing i can do as far as hole digging goes is just shut up.. because you're right, i am digging a bigger hole here.. just not the kind of hole you're implying

 

[flat five]

In fact, it probably is necessary to arrange them on the two sides.

Every socket 2011 motherboard I've seen has the DIMM slots on two sides - here's the z820 mobo:

[...]


I suspect that the pin-outs on the socket have two memory channels on one side, and the other two on the opposite side.

yeah, i see what you're saying..
it's looking like the ram isn't going to be directly attached to the board though and there's a spring loaded accordion like contraption which has the user pushing a button causing the slots to extend out for easier access.


the button:

the contraption:

 

[tuxon86]

that's moving the goal posts quite a bit as well as introducing a circular argument.. half the reasoning i give in the thread as to why this thing is upgradeable is that apple stands to make a boatload of money selling parts..

your argument towards me is "you said apple is going to make a whole bunch of money selling upgrades but, since apple is going to be in control of selling upgrades, you are wrong!" ..it makes zero sense.. sorry

you're saying nothing along the lines of why or why not the new mac is designed to be upgradeable or user serviceable which is what this topic is about (or, at least that's the part i personally am involved with the thread)

the topic of who sells the parts after it's more widely known that the machine is serviceable is a different topic and one that you all will continue to argue about in the coming years..

and i can see already how silly those arguments are going to be-- somehow this ->

Image

..is not an upgrade because even though it's a third party part (amd), apple sells it therefore it's not a 'real' upgrade :roll eyes:



.

It isn't a USER upgrade if you can't buy it and walk out of the store with it but instead have to have the apple tech install it for you...

Man you sure keep on digging...

----------

seriously, i have no problem whatsoever admitting i'm wrong.. in fact, i wish someone would prove me wrong -- that's half the fun of arguing..

it's just that it's so blatantly obvious a user will be able to work on this computer beyond swapping ram (and ssd) that i can't admit i'm wrong.. sorry if that sounds arrogant or whatever but that's just how it is.. probably the best thing i can do as far as hole digging goes is just shut up.. because you're right, i am digging a bigger hole here.. just not the kind of hole you're implying

At this point you're really just trolling...

 

[flat five]

It isn't a USER upgrade if you can't buy it and walk out of the store with it but instead have to have the apple tech install it for you...

Man you sure keep on digging...

don't know, that box in the picture-- i walked to the store (not even an apple store), bought the gpu, took it back to the computer and installed it.. not sure why they won't allow this to continue.. the design of the computer will certainly allow for it..

i don't get what i'm digging.. i never said it's user upgradeable if an apple tech must do the install.. you said that.

----------

At this point you're really just trolling...

you know, i've been called a troll by exactly three people on this site.. that's you, slug, and mvc..
probably just a coincidence though #

 

[tuxon86]

don't know, that box in the picture-- i walked to the store (not even an apple store), bought the gpu, took it back to the computer and installed it.. not sure why they won't allow this to continue.. the design of the computer will certainly allow for it..

i don't get what i'm digging.. i never said it's user upgradeable if an apple tech must do the install.. you said that.

Man... That box that you showed. It's from your quite ancient 1,1 MP...
It was in reality a PC videocard flashed with a new firmware to make it work with your MP. You could've reflashed it and put it in a PC and it would have worked because they shared the same architecture/form factor. This is why you could buy one in the first place from apple. They had to sell some because they had COMPETITION from 3rd party manuf. If they didn't, people would have just gone and bought Asus, MSI or ther brand, dropped a rom on it and install it. Apple count on people being dumb enough to believe that you need to buy an APPLE branded part to use in an APPLE computer...

This won't happen with the nMP because Apple won't have any competition for those GPU since no 3rd party will manuf replacement GPU in a form factor only usable in a specific machine in a tiny market...

----------

don't know, that box in the picture-- i walked to the store (not even an apple store), bought the gpu, took it back to the computer and installed it.. not sure why they won't allow this to continue.. the design of the computer will certainly allow for it..

i don't get what i'm digging.. i never said it's user upgradeable if an apple tech must do the install.. you said that.

----------



you know, i've been called a troll by exactly three people on this site.. that's you, slug, and mvc..
probably just a coincidence though ��

Or we are truthfull and not playing the politically correct game... I call it as I see it.

 

[handsome pete]

don't know, that box in the picture-- i walked to the store (not even an apple store), bought the gpu, took it back to the computer and installed it.. not sure why they won't allow this to continue.. the design of the computer will certainly allow for it..

The GPUs on the new Mac Pro look like they specifically won't allow for that kind of tinkering. Sure, there look to be screws around the edges, but why automatically assume you'll be able to just unscrew them and swap out another board? This has been easy in the past because they've used common PC parts. That's not the case this time around. Who knows how these are connected to the core? What about the fact that the SSD seems to be connected through one of these cards?

 

[MacVidCards]

All this blather from someone who has never replaced a CPU before.

He is a knowledgeable expert due to looking at some pictures from the safety of an armchair.

Waste of time.

CPU or GPU change will require removal and replacement of thermal paste. Since most people apply it like frosting, no way Apple will condone it.

Many video cards have paper over the screws surrounding GPU chip. Why? Because they don't want you taking apart thermal paste. Warranty instantly invalidated.

 

[flat five]

The GPUs on the new Mac Pro look like they specifically won't allow for that kind of tinkering. Sure, there look to be screws around the edges, but why automatically assume you'll be able to just unscrew them and swap out another board?

hmm.. i don't think you'll even have to unscrew the ones around the edges.. just the four screws holding the X bracket (presumably made of similar material as the heat sink?) then the two screws labeled 'gnd' and '12v'.. and the gpu will come out.. the connection is at the bottom and i assume that part will either hinge downwards in order to allow someone to slide it out or maybe theres a secondary wire connection..

i really don't know the details obviously.. i don't claim to know the details.. for all intents and purposes, there's exactly ONE feature on the computer which should be telling you all this thing is user serviceable.. that's the access latch.

----------

no way Apple will condone it.

do they condone it now? do they promote the upgradeability of the old mac pro?

no & no

are the old mac pros upgradeable and user serviceable?

yes

 

[handsome pete]

hmm.. i don't think you'll even have to unscrew the ones around the edges.. just the four screws holding the X bracket (presumably made of similar material as the heat sink?) then the two screws labeled 'gnd' and '12v'.. and the gpu will come out.. the connection is at the bottom and i assume that part will either hinge downwards in order to allow someone to slide it out or maybe theres a secondary wire connection..

The Flash Storage connector looks to be part of the board.


And I don't think "user serviceable" necessarily means "upgradeable." Yes, throw anyone some tools and they'll be able to start disassembling the device. But the reason that was so valuable in the past is because of the commonality of parts that could be swapped out. That absolutely doesn't look to be the case with this new machine. RAM? Sure. PCIe Flash? Probably. CPU? Maybe. GPU? Extremely doubtful. These are custom cards. And I believe you're completely overvaluing Apple's monetary opportunity for upgrades. Just because they've done it in the past (mind you with common parts) doesn't mean it was ever very profitable, thus the likely decision in the new design to not allow for it.

 

[flat five]

The Flash Storage connector looks to be part of the board.


And I don't think "user serviceable" necessarily means "upgradeable." Yes, throw anyone some tools and they'll be able to start disassembling the device.

of course.. everything they make is takeapartable.. but it usually consists of weird pry bars and sticky seals and whatnot.. no other mac design has a handy access latch and big user friendly screws like the mac pro does. it's designed to be serviced by people other than those with specific training and specialty tools..
you gotta figure every single millimeter of this computer was scrutinized and very real decisions were made for every single part of the machine.. there are 100% legit reasonings behind why certain types of screw were used in certain places and why it's so seemingly easy to get inside this machine..
from a clean slate mindset reverse engineer the design.. even if all we have is pictures at the moment.. compare to other mac designs which are know to be locked down as well as ones that aren't (mac pro).. and the borderlines (imac/mbp)..
i just can't follow that type of path and conclude 'yes, the new mac pro = macbook air'.. not even close

These are custom cards. And I believe you're completely overvaluing Apple's monetary opportunity for upgrades. Just because they've done it in the past (mind you with common parts) doesn't mean it was ever very profitable, thus the likely decision in the new design to not allow for it.

why wouldn't they allow it? do you honestly believe people will upgrade a mac pro after 3 years because apple doesn't let you upgrade.. as far as i can gather, this is the ONLY reason anyone has given in all of this as to why apple is cutting off upgrades.. (make a disposable computer, increase the cost of it, and sell them twice as often)

if a single person will chime in and say "i'd like to use my mac pro for 5 years and maybe add some new gpus at around 3 years.. but, seeing how i can't upgrade my gpus, i'll go ahead and buy a new computer instead"..
seriously, who is going to do that? are you? anyone in this thread? anyone on this forum?
or is this giant group of people who will simply just start buying macpros every three years just a myth created by ill-conceived logic?

 

[Gav Mack]

The Flash Storage connector looks to be part of the board.


And I don't think "user serviceable" necessarily means "upgradeable." Yes, throw anyone some tools and they'll be able to start disassembling the device. But the reason that was so valuable in the past is because of the commonality of parts that could be swapped out. That absolutely doesn't look to be the case with this new machine. RAM? Sure. PCIe Flash? Probably. CPU? Maybe. GPU? Extremely doubtful. These are custom cards. And I believe you're completely overvaluing Apple's monetary opportunity for upgrades. Just because they've done it in the past (mind you with common parts) doesn't mean it was ever very profitable, thus the likely decision in the new design to not allow for it.

With every year that passes the Mac range becomes less and less upgradeable. Two recent examples. A customer asked me a month ago whether he could upgrade his i5 CPU on a 2010 MBP 17 to an i7. You can't as it's soldered to the logic board. Second was a client split coca cola on his 2012 MBP 15 retina and needed a new keyboard/top case. My first one, so I started to take it apart before thoroughly looking at the ifixit tear down guide. After reading all of it I soon stopped, put it back together and told him to claim off his house insurance!

Therefore I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if Apple soldered the CPU to the logic board on the Black Can.

 

[MacVidCards]

An end to the silliness. AIRPORT CARD

So, we have 3 pages of tripe from one person with their head so far in the sand he can't even HEAR reason.

Enough I say.

And to that end I introduce THE AIRPORT CARD.

Why the Airport Card?

Because for the last 7 years, Apple has forced MP owners to drive great distances and then lug their 60lb workstation around in malls all for...an Airport Card.

If you wanted to install an Airport Card, you HAD TO HAVE A GENIUS DO IT . Doing this "risky" install yourself would technically INVALIDATE the warranty. The Airport Card is considered a "non-user serviceable part".

Remove and replace two screws and snap two snaps. With small fingers takes under 4 minutes. But as far as Apple was concerned this was beyond the tech skills of their idiot customers.

So hundreds of people were forced to do this exact thing, drag their 60lb computer all the way to a service center endorsed by Apple to do this delicate operation.

I am including a photograph to show a CPU vs an Airport Card. The CPU could be worth as much as $2700 while the airport card is worth between $20 and $200 depending on who you buy it from.

So while they wouldn't trust you to install that little card on left, some people (ok, one person) believes that Apple is shortly going to allow you to install the item on the right at will.Heck, he claims you'll be able to walk into your local Apple Store and BUY the CPU. Note, there is NO WAY to install a CPU without thermal compound.

They don't trust you to slide a tiny card into a slot and snap on 2 antennas but they will let you apply thermal compound to a $2,700 processor and entrust you to install correctly.

Right.

Have another look at those vaunted GPU upgrades they "allowed" you to do.

Notice what tools were needed?

That's right...NO TOOLS WERE NEEDED. Someone went to a great deal of trouble to make the slots accesible without tools. If you have at east 4 fingers and a thumb, you can change a GPU in a Mac.

Time to slowly and bravely pull your head from the sand. Don't be afraid.

EDIT: apparently attachments are a no-no for now. So no picture.

Adding via img thingies.

 

[Tutor]

of course.. everything they make is takeapartable.. but it usually consists of weird pry bars and sticky seals and whatnot.. no other mac design has a handy access latch and big user friendly screws like the mac pro does. it's designed to be serviced by people other than those with specific training and specialty tools..
you gotta figure every single millimeter of this computer was scrutinized and very real decisions were made for every single part of the machine.. there are 100% legit reasonings behind why certain types of screw were used in certain places and why it's so seemingly easy to get inside this machine..
from a clean slate mindset reverse engineer the design.. even if all we have is pictures at the moment.. compare to other mac designs which are know to be locked down as well as ones that aren't (mac pro).. and the borderlines (imac/mbp)..
i just can't follow that type of path and conclude 'yes, the new mac pro = macbook air'.. not even close





why wouldn't they allow it? do you honestly believe people will upgrade a mac pro after 3 years because apple doesn't let you upgrade.. as far as i can gather, this is the ONLY reason anyone has given in all of this as to why apple is cutting off upgrades.. (make a disposable computer, increase the cost of it, and sell them twice as often)

if a single person will chime in and say "i'd like to use my mac pro for 5 years and maybe add some new gpus at around 3 years.. but, seeing how i can't upgrade my gpus, i'll go ahead and buy a new computer instead"..
seriously, who is going to do that? are you? anyone in this thread? anyone on this forum?
or is this giant group of people who will simply just start buying macpros every three years just a myth created by ill-conceived logic?

I don't believe for a second that Apple ever intended for any end user of any computer that Apple has ever made to swap the CPU(s) and this belief of mine is fortified in the case to the DP 2009 Mac Pro. If it's done incorrectly, here's what can happen: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2800/upgrading-and-analyzing-apple-s-nehalem-mac-pro/11 . If it's done correctly, here's what can happen: http://blogs.computerworld.com/geekbench_reveals_next_3_3ghz_mac_pro_update . Since I'll not be getting a nMP anytime soon, someone other than me can now basked in either the first or the second part of the phrase popularized by Jim McKay on ABC's Wide World of Sports and be the first to experience firsthand (as did I and Anand) "[t]he thrill of victory [or] the agony of defeat" when attempting a CPU swap on a new Mac Pro when Apple had clearly not intended that the end user do so. But I'll help guide and/or rescue any taker.

 

[wallysb01]

i'm sure it will be.
hopefully it's cheaper than dropping it off at the shop for repairs though.. plus, if a part goes at a bad time, you can get it working again within an hour as opposed to it being somewhere else for a few days.

I'm not sure what you're saying is true. The SSD is looking like it will come from Apple and Apple alone. There is no "it broke, so I'm gonna head to Fry's and pick one up this afternoon." And that's going to make it more expensive, both in upfront cost and downtime/labor to arange a fix.

The GPU will almost certainly come from Apple and Apple alone, so the same as above will be true too.

Also, the MP is a very low volumn seller, so I doubt Apple stores outside maybe some of the biggest ones in the country will have spare parts on hand to replace things for you. I guess they could just clone you over on a new one and send you on your way, but that also requres them having MPs in stock. Most Apple stores didn't have the old Mac Pro in stock. While this one is smaller and *may* sell more, it may not change the number of store that actually keep them in stock.

Put it all together, and I think you're quite wrong that you'll "get it working again within an hour." If a drive failed in the old Mac Pro, that was certainly true.

(not saying anything new here.. just repeating the way it's been for at least the past 5 years.)

Again, the main drive and GPUs have been easy user replacements with nearly anything you could buy from NewEgg, Amazon or Fry's (GPUs have some issues with drivers and all, but still, there have been several options). Now we're looking at straight from Apple or maybe OWC. Price is going up! And I don't think there is a rational argument to disupt that.

 

[flat five]

They don't trust you to slide a tiny card into a slot and snap on 2 antennas but they will let you apply thermal compound to a $2,700 processor and entrust you to install correctly.

Right.

actually, i don't thnk they give a crap what you do after 3 years.. it's out of their hands at that point.. they know people aren't going to buy a new complete computer at this stage but if you want to give apple a few thousand dollars for parts they have laying around, sure, have at it.

Time to slowly and bravely pull your head from the sand. Don't be afraid.

maybe you don't quite understand the dynamics of this type of conversation.
there's a time limit on it.. nobody has to retract anything.. it will be retracted for them.

 

[MacVidCards]

actually, i don't thnk they give a crap what you do after 3 years.. it's out of their hands at that point.. they know people aren't going to buy a new complete computer at this stage but if you want to give apple a few thousand dollars for parts they have laying around, sure, have at it.





maybe you don't quite understand the dynamics of this type of conversation.
there's a time limit on it.. nobody has to retract anything.. it will be retracted for them.

Test your wonderful theory.

See if Apple will sell you an Airport card to install in that 2006 of yours.

I guess this is the closest we get to "whoops, I was full of it"

 

[flat five]

I'm not sure what you're saying is true. The SSD is looking like it will come from Apple and Apple alone. There is no "it broke, so I'm gonna head to Fry's and pick one up this afternoon." And that's going to make it more expensive, both in upfront cost and downtime/labor to arange a fix.

yeah, maybe.. though if frys sells computer parts and they're an authorized apple reseller, no reason they couldn't stock upgrade parts if they desired..

dunno, i'm speaking about my town.. there are 5 apple stores and at least double that amount of well stocked authorized resellers.. one of them being a 2 minute walk for me.. so when i say i could break a part, go buy a replacement, install it and have the computer working again within an hour.. i really mean that.. but if you live in everytownUSA, well, that's your own fault

Most Apple stores didn't have the old Mac Pro in stock.

again, not my experience but i realize ymmv.. the only time i had any problems locating a replacement part was early in the past macpro's cycle.. my second gpu replacement on that machine was stocked anywhere i checked..

Price is going up! And I don't think there is a rational argument to disupt that.

there's not.. the price is going to go up and a big chunk of people's upgrade spending is going to be through apple now instead of iBayhacks etc..

----------

Test your wonderful theory.

See if Apple will sell you an Airport card to install in that 2006 of yours.

I guess this is the closest we get to "whoops, I was full of it"

apple will not sell me an airport card for a 7 year old computer therefore the new mac pro is not user serviceable.

got it. i think i'm getting the hang of this now :/
maybe i'll wait til tomorrow before pulling my head out of the sand though.

 

[MacVidCards]

apple will not sell me an airport card for a 7 year old computer therefore the new mac pro is not user serviceable.

got it. i think i'm getting the hang of this now :/
maybe i'll wait til tomorrow before pulling my head out of the sand though.

..same Airport card in a 2012 MP (which would be under warranty) or a 2009 (which would NOT be under warranty) same card in a 2008 (which would NOT be under warranty)

So which is it? Apple sells parts for machines only while they are new? Apple only sells parts that are user serviceable for machine sunder warranty? Apple only sells parts for machines that are no longer under warranty (but less than 7 years old)?

You need to pick one.

The Airport card is easy to switch, far less risky than a CPU upgrade. Yet no matter if your MP is new, old or still on the Apple Store floor, they will NOT allow you to replace it. They will not even sell you one to do yourself. Your reasoning is flawed from beginning to the end.



So far at least 6 people have called you out. No matter how much evidence comes up, still you cling to your opinion with nothing to back it up.

It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.

We'll keep waiting I guess.

 

[flat five]

So which is it? Apple sells parts for machines only while they are new? Apple only sells parts that are user serviceable for machine sunder warranty? Apple only sells parts for machines that are no longer under warranty (but less than 7 years old)?

You need to pick one.

why do i need to pick one when i'm not saying either of those.. you're saying those things..
i've said it numerous times in this thread already and i'll say it again-
the new mac pro will be equally difficult or easier to work on than the current mac pro..

personally, i don't feel any computer is truly user friendly when it comes to upgrading it's components.. they're all still basically the shoebox full of weird looking stuff sitting on moms kitchen table.. only with a fancier shoebox.
when i can plug in a cpu via a thunderbolt type interface on an as needed basis (or whatever) then i would consider it truly user friendly.
but the entire basis of this whole conversation revolves around the fact that apple has redesigned their flagship and people are comparing it to the past version.. "the old mac was so great and so configurable and a geek's paradise and on and on".. you're one of those people (maybe even the spokesperson of the group)..

but now all your past few points are how difficult and fragile past swaps have been.. so is it easy/open or is it difficult/limited

maybe you're the one that 'needs to pick one'

So far at least 6 people have called you out. No matter how much evidence comes up, still you cling to your opinion with nothing to back it up.

It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.

We'll keep waiting I guess.

nobody is giving any evidence.. don't you see that? the past page of posts have been all about the old mac pro when the discussion is whether or not the new mac is upgradeable.. show me a picture of a soldered cpu - That's evidence.

 

[flat five]

It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.

you know you've probably said this to me about thirty times in the past few months.. project much?

fwiw, it doesn't take a big man to admit when he's wrong.. just an honest one is all.

 

[MacVidCards]

to me, access to the inside and access to the individual components once you're inside looks more friendly than anything they've done before (that i can think of).. even moreso than the current mac pro.. its design looks as if the designers expect people to be digging around in there.

why do i need to pick one when i'm not saying either of those.. you're saying those things..
i've said it numerous times in this thread already and i'll say it again-
the new mac pro will be equally difficult or easier to work on than the current mac pro..

personally, i don't feel any computer is truly user friendly when it comes to upgrading it's components.. they're all still basically the shoebox full of weird looking stuff sitting on moms kitchen table.. only with a fancier shoebox.


maybe you're the one that 'needs to pick one'

those screws are practically begging to be unscrewed.. if you give a kid a handful of tools and a new mac pro.. she's unscrewing a gpu first thing.

for clarity, i'm not trying to say this new design is incredibly user friendly on the inside.. it's still going to take a somewhat tech minded person to get in there and swap parts..

See, this would fit my "all over the map" description.

 

[flat five]

edit- over it

 

[flat five]

The GPUs on the new Mac Pro look like they specifically won't allow for that kind of tinkering. Sure, there look to be screws around the edges, but why automatically assume you'll be able to just unscrew them and swap out another board? This has been easy in the past because they've used common PC parts. That's not the case this time around. Who knows how these are connected to the core? What about the fact that the SSD seems to be connected through one of these cards?

something i noticed about the gpu boards is that there's a right one and left one (as in uniquely right and uniquely left).. they're more/less mirrors of each other(all of the individual components aren't) and you can't put a left one on the right side.. (look at the two gnd and 12v screws)..

so if down the road you're able to swap gpus, you'll be buying a right or left (or pair) if it's the whole board which is replaceable.

something interesting though is the white dot screw hole on the left panel.. same hole which the ssd on the right is using but why would they put a hole in the left one seeing how it's unique? so maybe 2 ssds in the future

[edit.. also just noticed the left one is labeled 'A' and the right 'B' ]


[edit2].. but i suppose the boards could of been cut identical and the holes are drilled prior to mounting components on opposite sides.. hence the reason for the drive hole on the left panel.
?

 

[flat five]

actually, now i'm sort of convinced there will be a second drive there.
'balance' certainly factored into the process in most other areas and i doubt they chose to leave it like this..
the one ssd pictures look similar to the 3 sticks of ram they give you with the $3g model.. doesn't make sense (design wise)

 

[flat five]

actually, now i'm sort of convinced there will be a second drive there.

..there does appear to be an available socket.

(apparently, the parts of the boards which have the white outlines (two screws up top, the screw which holds the drive, and the holes in the board for a (possible) connection) are there as a guide)