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Steve also made the Cube. LOL.

Don’t fall for the old “everything was better in the past” BS.

When there was the 12”G3 PowerBook there was also a 12” G3 MacBook. The only real difference was plastic vs titanium body iirc.

I had a G4 mirror drive door Powermac. That thing was loud like a plane. And the fans constantly changed speed so it wasn’t like a white noise you could get used to. Yeah there was one option for a powermac at the time. ALL configurations loud as a jet.

Then the G4 development hit a wall and we all waited. FOR YEARS. While Intel left us in the dust.

Then we got the G5 and a good couple more years here following the thread “When is the G5 PowerBook coming?”. It never came. And PowerBooks stayed with the same G4 chip for ages.

Then they finally jumped ship to Intel. So yeah. It wasn’t all perfect while Steve was around.

I have a 12” MacBook that I love. But I also think a 13” one would be a great option. Which is basically what the MBA is. Whether it’s called MacBook or MacBook Air is irrelevant to anyone whose not an Apple nerd. My partner has a 13”MBP and I way prefer the tapered design of the MB/MBA.

I agree on just ditching the old models though. But I guess it helps with price point. My partner recently got an iPhone7+ because it was almost 1/3rd the price of an iPhone XSmax.

I agree, the Air simply does not need to exist. 12" MacBook is PERFECT in its size and the MacBook Pro is only £350 more than the Air BUT is only 0.4 heavier, BETTER SCREEN in every respect P3 Wide Colour Gamut 500 nits as opposed to 300, True Tone, Quad Core.
In reality, I'm angry to see the Air name - it's old, hideous in fact and now adds to confusion when a person buys a laptop. It's the opposite to what Steve Jobs did when he reappeared at Apple and cut the complete product line. Remember he got ride of everything and started fresh - iMac and G3 Tower then iBook, Titanium Pro laptop. Now Apple is full of everything including old dinosaurs - old MacBook Air, old iPhone 7, 8 old iPad Mini 4 - the product line is getting obese.

Hopefully 12" MacBook will get the touch ID next year and the T2 chip and maybe ARM. AND, a 1TB option.

But what the heck is the 1.5TB option for the Air? That's pushing it to £2400 MORE than the 13" TB MacBook Pro with 1TB.
 
Get an iPad.
I have at least 5 iPads in the household including a pro. I need a laptop for multitasking. I have 3 MacBooks and will keep using mb 12 2015 until mb 12 gets a compelling new feature or at least new processor. Hopefully they will refresh it soon
 
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The new MacBook Air is almost what I wanted the new 2018 MacBook to be (naming aside), with a bigger screen, two TB3 ports, T2 chip, biometric authentication and longer battery life. Except for 3 important things that make my fingers avoid the buy button:

-The lack of a P3 display.
-The lack of Bluetooth 5.0.
-The lack of a fanless design due to a higher than 5 wats Intel Core Y processor.

So close but still so far...

Anyway, I think there’s still some hope to get at least the two last things on a future 12” MacBook sometime ahead, even if that means no 2018 MacBook. And if we are going to wait for a 2019 MacBook I’d have to add two more important things to be mandatory in that next year model:

-LPDDR4 memory.
-No price increase.
 
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The form factor of 12” MacBook is just perfect, TBH. The only thing I want in it is a faster CPU for compiling apps in Xcode. This new Air isn’t that much smaller than the 13” MBP. Kind of disappointing. I still want to play around with it once Apple stores start carrying them.

@leftyMac, first comment I’ve seen regarding Xcode on 12” MB.

Is it unusable on current 2017 model? Thinking of maxing the specs out, so i7-7y75 and 16GB RAM.
Or would you just like quicker compile times?

I’m not a pro, but Xcode will be my “biggest” app and I want the imminent laptop purchase to last a number of years.
Just been to local Apple store, but they don’t display the MB i7 or allow Xcode to be installed!

Keyboard was actually quite noticeably nicer and quieter on the Air, and no one is able to detail exactly what the T2 chip is doing or how much it alleviating the Air’s processor.

Form factor, weight and silence with a unit that runs Xcode and Simulator well enough and lasts 4-5yrs.
 
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LeftyMac, first comment I’ve seen regarding Xcode on 12” MB.

Is it unusable on current 2017 model? Thinking of maxing the specs out, so i7-7y75 and 16GB RAM.
Or would you just like quicker compile times?

I’m not a pro, but Xcode will be my “biggest” app and I want the imminent laptop purchase to last a number of years.
Just been to local Apple store, but they don’t display the MB i7 or allow Xcode to be installed!

Keyboard was actually quite noticeably nicer and quieter on the Air, and no one is able to detail exactly what the T2 chip is doing or how much it alleviating the Air’s processor.

Form factor, weight and silence with a unit that runs Xcode and Simulator well enough and lasts 4-5yrs.
I'm no developer, but I'm not convinced the compile times on the 2017 MacBook i7 would be that much better than even the 2017 m3. My guess is maybe 5% or so.

See my MacBook m3, i5, i7 Cinebench thread here:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...uns-of-cinebench.2073415/page-2#post-25271927

I know Cinebench is not Xcode, but these are both pure CPU tasks, so it may give you an idea.
 
@leftyMac, first comment I’ve seen regarding Xcode on 12” MB.

Is it unusable on current 2017 model? Thinking of maxing the specs out, so i7-7y75 and 16GB RAM.
Or would you just like quicker compile times?

I’m not a pro, but Xcode will be my “biggest” app and I want the imminent laptop purchase to last a number of years.
Just been to local Apple store, but they don’t display the MB i7 or allow Xcode to be installed!

Keyboard was actually quite noticeably nicer and quieter on the Air, and no one is able to detail exactly what the T2 chip is doing or how much it alleviating the Air’s processor.

Form factor, weight and silence with a unit that runs Xcode and Simulator well enough and lasts 4-5yrs.

What is to question about the tasks the T2 chip is responsable for? I think it’s pretty clear what the T2 chip does if you read Apple’s product site of any Mac including it.

Don’t worry about Xcode performance. It even works perfectly even in a 2011 2,3GHz 13” MacBook Pro (except for Simulator due to the poor performance of the Intel HD Graphics 3000).
So it’s going to work flawlessly in any Mac that runs Mojave. How fast it will compile is the only thing you can improve with a faster processor. But to notice any difference there you should be compiling really big Apps. So I would worry about it as long as you are not compiling like big and heavy hardcore video games by yourself...
 
MB 12 update may get delayed until Apple is ready to put an ARM cpu in it

Yes, i'm thinking this too. And I wonder if like the Air, the new MacBook will be 100% recycled aluminium :) I hope so!
I WONDER when ProMotion will come to the Mac range. I watch LOADS of media variety on my MacBook. I would be lovely to have everything play in the correct frame rate!
 
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Yes, i'm thinking this too. And I wonder if like the Air, the new MacBook will be 100% recycled aluminium :) I hope so!
I WONDER when ProMotion will come to the Mac range. I watch LOADS of media variety on my MacBook. I would be lovely to have everything play in the correct frame rate!
Whats the deael with recycled aluminium? Is it better than normal one? :))
 
Whats the deael with recycled aluminium? Is it better than normal one? :))
Just better for the environment BUT that doesn't account for the horrible pollution caused by making millions of these products! Humans, crazy fellows huh!

In fact, aluminium is highly toxic to humans. When ingested, it moves right up to the brain which causes dementia in later life.
 
Thanks @Aquamite and @EugW

Sorry, don’t think I phrased my T2 question well. For example with H.264 & H.265 H/W offloading. Its still being processed on the device, just in a different chip, that requires power and uses battery cycles. The expectation being that this is less than the CPU-equivalent.

Adding all the features the T2 currently does (mass storage controller with DARE SSD encryption, audio controller for "Hey Siri", Touch ID processing, image signal processor, etc), how much in TOTAL is this reducing the load on the CPU. It's near impossible to tell, right.

For my use case, while I understand from another thread on this forum, 2017 MacBook behave during sustained CPU load, the m3 isn't significantly slower than the i7 chip but circa 15-18% difference was noted on multi-core processing which is a lot for a CPU-bound task like Xcode compiling, but:
  • being at the slower end of the CPU scale, so eeking as much as possible
  • wanting this device to work well enough as a standalone device for my use for a number of years would be (relatively) worthwhile the upgrade(?). Any other Macs to offload should be kept to a minimum with my workloads, else I should be buying something else!
But in the MacBook's favour, even using Xcode wouldn't max out the CPUs simply by being open and typing in code, but mostly during the compile times specifically and then perhaps would have heavier load while the Simulator is actually running. And yes, my apps will most likely be small.

Is there any truth in the throttled performance while on battery, on any MacBook chip? This would be another contributory factor that would sway back towards an Air... The negligible differences between the Air & MB start to compound.

Finally, while in the MB section of the forum (apologies), but is there a baseline of how the fan operates on the 2018 Air? Aggressive coming on all the time and sustained? Or on rare occasions? And a what volume / decibel rating? Is that noticeable in everyday use?
 
with H.264 & H.265 H/W offloading. Its still being processed on the device, just in a different chip, that requires power and uses battery cycles. The expectation being that this is less than the CPU-equivalent.

It's not only an expectation but also the reality.

Adding all the features the T2 currently does (mass storage controller with DARE SSD encryption, audio controller for "Hey Siri", Touch ID processing, image signal processor, etc), how much in TOTAL is this reducing the load on the CPU. It's near impossible to tell, right.

It's not impossible, it's just something worthless to measure unless the goal of it is to publish a research about T2 chip or some similar study.

Anyway it is a fact that the T2 is not only reducing some of the CPU load, but also taking advantage of the low power consumption of technologies Apple designed for their ARM chips on iOS devices to add features to the Mac that previously were not possible to add, like Touch ID and always on 'Hey Siri' support, without impacting overall power consumption of their current x86 based Mac computers.

If you want to have a general idea about how much the CPU benefits of a relieve of all the former CPU load now being handled by the T2 chip, you have to look at the kind of the T2 chip tasks that were previously handled by the CPU and much of an impact those have had on battery life in previous non-T2 Mac models. Then just take that impact practically out of the equation. Of course the T2 chip needs some power to perform those tasks, but the power required by an Apple ARM chip with their own home baked application-specific integrated circuitry is virtually zero compared to that of any existing x86 Intel Core CPU handling those tasks. Just look at how iPhones with their tiny batteries have been handling some of these tasks natively ever since the introduction of iOS 7 on the iPhone 5s with it's 64 bit native encryption ready A7 SoC. If the tiny battery of old iPhones have been handling the same things the T2 chip does without draw backs on overall device battery life, how is a brand new Application specific Apple ARM chip from 2017 going to affect a Mac computer battery life negatively (with their huge batteries in comparison to an iPhone) in any possible way? The logical answer is, it does not.

For my use case, while I understand from another thread on this forum, 2017 MacBook behave during sustained CPU load, the m3 isn't significantly slower than the i7 chip but circa 15-18% difference was noted on multi-core processing which is a lot for a CPU-bound task like Xcode compiling,

It is not at all for small apps. I don't think you should worry at all about multicore performance for compiling small apps. Instead you'd better focus on single core performance, as the compiler isn't going to benefit from using several cores for compiling a small app, it doesn't matter if the computer has huge multicore performance. The compiler is simply not going to use any of that performance for compiling small apps.

The reason is that in the hypothetical case that Xcode LLVM were to try to take advantage from all the available cores for compiling a small app, the result would inevitably be way slower compilation times as the creation of multiple threads and therefore reserving their respective memory is going to take more computing resources than directly compiling the small app in a more of a sequential approach.

  • wanting this device to work well enough as a standalone device for my use for a number of years would be (relatively) worthwhile the upgrade(?).

Not worth it as any bottom line Mac model is going to have software support just as many years as if it was speced out to the top. Take a look at how Apple lists what the compatible Macs for their new OS. For each Mac model just lists what's the oldest one compatible regardless of the specifications (except for the old Mac Pro models that could be upgraded after purchase so the support may differ depending of their specifications).

  • Any other Macs to offload should be kept to a minimum with my workloads, else I should be buying something else!

Any Mac is a good Mac. Just buy whatever Mac you want to buy. But if you want to make an optimal use of your money when buying a Mac consider what your needs really are and buy your Mac accordingly.

But in the MacBook's favour, even using Xcode wouldn't max out the CPUs simply by being open and typing in code, but mostly during the compile times specifically and then perhaps would have heavier load while the Simulator is actually running. And yes, my apps will most likely be small.

Compiling times for small apps are not gonna be long enough to make a MacBook run slow even in the m3 case. In the specific case you where compiling a small app and then some performance hit was noticeable while using Simulator at the same time, I don't think that would last more than 10 seconds in the bottom line m3 MacBook.

In case you want a new Mac to last as long as possible, what you need to consider when choosing specifications for your device is it's scalability for your use cases for the future. So the safest choice of course would be buying the top of the line 15" MacBook Pro, but maybe not the more reasonable. For compiling small apps an m3 MacBook would perfectly fit those needs. But think about how much money you can really spend and how many years do you think your computing needs are going to be the same or not, and then upgrade your system according to that at purchase time. And the right time to make a purchase of a Mac is when you really need one because of your work needs or because the one you already have is going to be left out of any future Apple security software update.

Is there any truth in the throttled performance while on battery, on any MacBook chip? This would be another contributory factor that would sway back towards an Air... The negligible differences between the Air & MB start to compound.

Throttling on heavy workloads has been a reality some years already for virtually any notebook from the last few years, whether you are on battery power or connected to the power supply. It's going to happen also on the MacBook Air if you push it to its limits where the fan cooling is not enough. What you need to consider is if you are going to push your hardware that much and how long in your use case. For example, if the most hardware demanding task in your use case is going to be only compiling small apps, throttling is not going to be an issue, at least for the next 4-5 years or so, as we can not really predict what the hardware needs of future compiler iterations are going to actually be. And even if throttling ends up impacting the CPU performance during compiling apps, it'd only delay compiling times a few seconds–probably not more than 30 seconds in the very worst case scenario for a small app. So considering those things, I don't see any reason to go for more expensive hardware on a notebook for compiling small apps.

I'm not sure what you mean by mentioning "negligible differences" between the MacBook and the MacBook Air. The new MacBook Air is a strange hybrid quite similar to the MacBook, but actually they truly are quite different devices. The only problem I see regarding their differences is the little improvement the MacBook Air offers compared to the MacBook considering that those improvements come with draw backs in design as well as lots of matches in specifications and available prices more than one year after the introduction of the MacBook. But I don't see how ay of the differences relate at all with any throttling performance comparison between these two Macs inside of use case of compiling small apps. I think in this regard the similarities between the two models weight more than their "negligible differences". All in all, it really depends on you caring about those similarities and differences or not for your use case.

Finally, while in the MB section of the forum (apologies), but is there a baseline of how the fan operates on the 2018 Air? Aggressive coming on all the time and sustained? Or on rare occasions? And a what volume / decibel rating? Is that noticeable in everyday use?

Now, the answer to this one is one I'm curious to know too. I have a bunch of reviews of the new MacBook Air pending to read and watch, I just haven't had time to get into it. But anyway, just the fact that you are (if you really are) considering buying now the new MacBook Air or the MacBook from last year I'd ditch the small MacBook and totally recommend buying the MacBook Air. That way you'd be getting a more powerful and newer Mac for around the same money.

As of now, I can't recommend anybody buying the old MacBook. Although the MacBook was an amazing value when it came out, by now it's simply a device hard to recommend, even more when taking into account that a brand new 2018 MacBook Air model just came out rounding about the same price range. It could be said that people who bought the MacBook when it came out in 2017 made their Mac purchase of the decade, just like @EugW did, but it's just now anymore. I could only recommend it if an ultra portable fanless machine is something mandatory for your needs right now and you can't wait any longer.
 
Macbook was an ultimate ultraportable when it came out in 2015 and for me remains such despite lack of 2018 refresh. Its fanless 30% lighter than Air so I will wait till Apple gets around to update it. Given recent trends, Apple would not do a refresh, but rather add a T2 chip, second port and charge $1499 for base model
 
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Macbook was an ultimate ultraportable when it came out in 2015 and for me remains such despite lack of 2018 refresh. Its fanless 30% lighter than Air so I will wait till Apple gets around to update it. Given recent trends, Apple would not do a refresh, but rather add a T2 chip, second port and charge $1399 for base model
Also consider that the “8th Gen” Y chip used in the MacBook Air is just the 7th gen used in the MacBook with a higher maximum clock speed. Everything else is the same. Apple may be waiting for Cannonlake when they’ll be able to make more substantive updates to the MacBook.
 
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Also consider that the “8th Gen” Y chip used in the MacBook Air is just the 7th gen used in the MacBook with a higher maximum clock speed. Everything else is the same. Apple may be waiting for Cannonlake when they’ll be able to make more substantive updates to the MacBook.

When are Y Cannonlake processors coming out?
 
Macbook was an ultimate ultraportable when it came out in 2015 and for me remains such despite lack of 2018 refresh. Its fanless 30% lighter than Air so I will wait till Apple gets around to update it. Given recent trends, Apple would not do a refresh, but rather add a T2 chip, second port and charge $1399 for base model

Also consider that the “8th Gen” Y chip used in the MacBook Air is just the 7th gen used in the MacBook with a higher maximum clock speed. Everything else is the same. Apple may be waiting for Cannonlake when they’ll be able to make more substantive updates to the MacBook.

Thanks @radiologyman and @KPOM

Both points also play a part in my current indecision about the MacBook and if the new Air is a better all round choice.

I want the 37% lighter and smaller unit, but being a year older model just makes me feel less cutting edge / current. I had read that the Air’s gen 8 chips are a higher clocked version of the MacBook’s gen 7, and @EugW’s detailing the actual CPU performance differences being within 10% between Air and the MacBook.

The adage is buy what you want today for your needs. There is always the lingering chance of a spec bump coming that would be unbearably annoying...

If any spec bump came along, I think @radiologyman’s improvements would make for a great ultraportable device that I would have no hesitation buying.

I think ultimately the timing of the MacBook’s release and it’s form factor was set for Cannon Lake, matching Intel’s originally published roadmaps. Due to delays, Apple put in the best fanless CPU available at the time. Now we’re waiting for it again for the best model redesign, whenever that happens...

I started another thread about the MacBook’s single port. This might actually be my biggest dilemma (too few and / or not high enough throughput) for my anticipated use cases between these 2 units.

But I have to purchase imminently. Otherwise, you just end up endlessly waiting...
 
I used to buy Sony Z series ultraportables until MB 12 came along. The only thing I missed from Sony is full color gamut screen with very vibrant colors. Can it look similar IF it will get a P3 screen?? I understand there will increased power consumption so Apple may not do it until an emissive screen technology is ready
 
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The new MacBook Air is almost what I wanted the new 2018 MacBook to be (naming aside), with a bigger screen, two TB3 ports, T2 chip, biometric authentication and longer battery life. Except for 3 important things that make my fingers avoid the buy button:

-The lack of a P3 display.
-The lack of Bluetooth 5.0.
-The lack of a fanless design due to a higher than 5 wats Intel Core Y processor.

So close but still so far...

Anyway, I think there’s still some hope to get at least the two last things on a future 12” MacBook sometime ahead, even if that means no 2018 MacBook. And if we are going to wait for a 2019 MacBook I’d have to add two more important things to be mandatory in that next year model:

-LPDDR4 memory.
-No price increase.

Given that the base prices for the XS and the Air both came in higher than expected, I'm fairly certain a MacBook refresh will have a similar price increase. Seems to be corporate strategy now.

Question is whether the upgrades will be worth the extra money.
 
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