New Macbook - no Firewire!

[LethalWolfe]

That's what I love about Macrumors forums. Reasoned debate conducted on reasonable terms.

While I see your point, DH, and sympathise, don't you think it's exceedingly unlikely that Apple would abandon FW support on higher-specced machines than the Macbook, for just the reason that you cite, namely "that [no one] with a substantial investment in Firewire equipped gear would consider purchasing a Mac"?

There were rumours abut SJ's health doing the rounds, but none of them mentioned a decline in mental health . . .

EDIT: I wrote that ^^ before I read this >> https://www.macrumors.com/2008/10/17/steve-jobs-on-lack-of-firewire-in-macbooks/
What the . . . ?

While I doubt that Apple will phase out FW on it's 'pro' machines, the funny thing is that the 'consumer' machines need as much, if not more, storage bandwidth than the hi-end machines when it comes to dealing w/consumer cameras because iMovie and FCE can't edit any HD format natively. They transcode AVCHD and HDV into AIC for editing and while AIC is easier on the CPU it balloons the file sizes up to nearly 50gigs/hr (native HDV is around 13 gigs/hr). So someone using iMovie and a consumer HD camera has the same, or greater, storage needs than someone using FCP and a consumer HD camera.


Lethal

 

[aspectratio703]

Wasn't registered here but saw this message and had to reply...

In my own case, I own 2 DVCam VTRs that cost over $3500.00 each, two DVCam camcorders that cost over $8500.00 each, a Firestore DTE recorder that cost roughly $1500.00, a FW capable DVD recorder ($450.00) and four external FW drives with no USB ports ($250.00 each). The total cost on all my Firewire only gear is about $26,950.00.

This equipment and my two Macs are used to earn my living.

You are obviously a professional and are fine with spending tens of thousands of dollars on equipment.

The Macbook is not for you. The Macbook Pro is. Problem solved.

As the previous poster said, don't take the lack of Firewire on the Macbook for a sign that Firewire is leaving the Mac platform immediately. But having said that, look at where Sony is going with the EX1 and Panasonic with their HVX200--both shooting to memory cards and can transfer in faster than real-time unlike Firewire--and you can see the end could well be near.

 

[Chrispy]

So close to finally having a PowerBook 12" replacement back in the lineup but no cigar. Seriously, there are plenty of people out there who would like to have a smaller machine with MBP functionality. No firewire did away with that possibility. Figures, finally have the GPU power but no input

 

[LethalWolfe]

As the previous poster said, don't take the lack of Firewire on the Macbook for a sign that Firewire is leaving the Mac platform immediately. But having said that, look at where Sony is going with the EX1 and Panasonic with their HVX200--both shooting to memory cards and can transfer in faster than real-time unlike Firewire--and you can see the end could well be near.

Tape is limited to real time, not FW (FW400 can sustain higher data transfer speeds than USB 2.0). Both the EX1 and HVX200 have FW400.


Lethal

 

[RedTomato]

Well I for one would be happy to junk tape, IF the new hdd cameras were as good as the DV cameras. So far, I'm hearing they're not.

Could you please name some of these tapeless camcorders you regard as so great?

Not "great," that was probably a poor choice of words, but certainly on par with the HV20s/HV30s of this world, except tapeless.

The general consensus on Canon's HF100 / HF10 is that in terms of picture quality and feature set, you have a machine that equals the HV30 in performance. Early rumblings about the new HF11 are that it's even better.

Sony's SR11 / SR12 are meant to churn out pretty good looking pictures, too. These are the camcorders I was referring to.

These are fine handheld sub-$1000 cameras, but really I was referring to cheap prosumer cameras which cost around $1k-2k i.e. about the same price as a macbook with 4GB ram and 320 / 500 GB HD which is about the perfect cheap setup for laptop video editing. (except for no FW).

Something like the Sony HVR range HDR-Z1, FX1 FX7, Canon XL / AH ranges etc would do. But they all use FW.

Apple seems to be saying 'Use USB'. Has anyone (recently) tried capturing DV via USB just to see how it works on modern systems?

Like everyone here, I;ve been told how FW is so much better, and it's what I myself use, but I've never actually tried capture via USB. Perhaps it's better now than in the old days of single core and USB 1.1?

I'm not in the office again till tomorrow, then I'll try capturing a few clips with my C2D MB and miniDV camcorder and USB.

The posters on this thread were right. On my miniDV cam USB is only for still images. I never bothered looking at the USB section of the manual, so I kinda assumed there was some second class USB option. Nope.

The total cost on all my Firewire only gear is about $26,950.00.

I hate to say this, but compared to the cost of your FW gear, a MBP isn't too bad. I'm concerned for these people like me who have about as much invested in FW gear as the cost of a well decked out MB.

While I doubt that Apple will phase out FW on it's 'pro' machines, the funny thing is that the 'consumer' machines need as much, if not more, storage bandwidth than the hi-end machines when it comes to dealing w/consumer cameras because iMovie and FCE can't edit any HD format natively. They transcode AVCHD and HDV into AIC for editing and while AIC is easier on the CPU it balloons the file sizes up to nearly 50gigs/hr (native HDV is around 13 gigs/hr). So someone using iMovie and a consumer HD camera has the same, or greater, storage needs than someone using FCP and a consumer HD camera.

Many thanks Lethal. I was looking at AVCHD, but your comment clearly shows it isn't for me. I film deaf people signing, and have many hours of footage. I can't have only 4 or 5 hours of footage (which isn't much split between several projects) filling up my entire laptop HD.

So basically there's ***** all for people like me except for suck it up and tell my workplace to buy end-of-line whitebooks. And either splash out on P2 camcorders or buy amateur camcorders when our current one needs replacing. (which it sort of does already)

 

[Courtaj]

Something like the Sony HVR range HDR-Z1, FX1 FX7, Canon XL / AH ranges etc would do. But they all use FW.

Just to clarify, because I've already been flamed unnecessarily by another poster who got it into his head that I was talking about prosumer or professional camcorders, the post I was responding to (#19) specifically referred to Canon's consumer HDV offering:

HDV is the choice in this price range, period, the Canon HV30, or the Sony's, uses Mini DV tape and uses Firewire 400

. . . and that's what I was talking about. Sub-$1000.

Nonetheless, I sympathise and agree. The lack of firewire is absurd. I was willing to play along until that totalalalally mindf*cked SJ email turned up.

Time to insert bananas.

 

[burk123]

Forcing the buyers to buy a more expensive units is never the strategy of technology manufacturer companies. Expensive units have expensive costs. Companies work with specific margins on each product.

More than 80% of Apple laptop users do not even have a clue of what you are talking here. Only time they'd ever use a FW would be if they decide to buy a FW supported HD from BestBuy.

No one liked plastics MBs and Apple listened to that. They changed it with a high cost aluminum chassis with a great make up and some performance upgrades. Still they had to keep the price similar to previous version and they managed that.

"content consumer" ,as one of you wrote here, is not a pro user. "content creater" is a pro user. So guess, which mac laptop should a "content creater" go with if FW is a must for them.

 

[Chrispy]

Dell includes a 4-pin firewire 400 port on their $499 Vostro 1510. The $399 Vostro 1000 even at least includes an express card slot. I'm sorry but there is no excuse for the lack of a firewire port. And just because you use firewire does NOT mean you are a pro user.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Forcing the buyers to buy a more expensive units is never the strategy of technology manufacturer companies. Expensive units have expensive costs. Companies work with specific margins on each product.

Sure it is that's why they have product tiers and if the tiers get too close together, or the lower end model w/the smaller margin sells to well things get 'adjusted.' Why do stock Apple or Dell computers come w/relatively small harddrives and small amounts of RAM? It's so you'll hopefully buy bigger HDDs and more RAM from them at greatly marked up prices. Or take a look at the 12" PowerBook. It was hugely popular but it undercut the sales of other models so Apple did away w/it. The last round of MB were very popular in part because they were cheaper than MBPs but still powerful enough to do a fair amount of editing on-the-go and cut into the sales of the MBPs. Apple's answer to was to remove FW which hurts 'regular' consumers as much as, if not more than, pro users looking for a quality budget machine.

More than 80% of Apple laptop users do not even have a clue of what you are talking here. Only time they'd ever use a FW would be if they decide to buy a FW supported HD from BestBuy.

Really? More than 80%? Source?


Lethal

 

[spectralpro]

I think the key thing here is that Apple has got us all to buy into firewire big time whether it be 400/800. I regularly capture video on my MBP - camera in FW400 and a fast FW800 as capture scratch...works very well.

I do find it outrageous they have dropped this very useful mac like interface off the Macbook. It is clearly a cheep Apple trick to force some people to move up to the next level laptop. Oh and Target disk mode has been one of the most useful features ever !

In saying this most drives have both interfaces usb/firewire but video capture is key even in low end markets so why of why.....encourage the masses to do video on lower end machines then remove a key useful interface from the laptop of choice for students/not so wealthy users.

So overall i am unaffected....but my thoughts go out to others.

Also where is the eSATA port on MBP would be useful to me.....
ie capture through FW800 port (with yet another apple adapter that i will have to buy) onto an external SATA RAID array.....i know i have buy a express card for laptop and more adapters for the screens....

love you hardware but hate your policies sometimes !

 

[davefire77]

Possible solution

http://www.synchrotech.com/products-expc/expresscard34-usb2_firewire-400_01.html

Here's a link to what I think can solve the firewire problem, I'm just a starting out in video, so let me know if this makes sense to anyone else.

 

[iShater]

http://www.synchrotech.com/products-expc/expresscard34-usb2_firewire-400_01.html

Here's a link to what I think can solve the firewire problem, I'm just a starting out in video, so let me know if this makes sense to anyone else.

No express card on the MacBook

 

[jodelli]

http://www.synchrotech.com/products-expc/expresscard34-usb2_firewire-400_01.html

Here's a link to what I think can solve the firewire problem, I'm just a starting out in video, so let me know if this makes sense to anyone else.

No express card on the MacBook

But... but... I heard from somebody's cousin's brother that if you plug in both USB hub-amma-things you can RAID the bugs in the system PCI bus.

Apologies to davefire77, I'm not making fun of you trying to be helpful,

just the Cupertino Creed being repeated by minions over and over again in place of a sound reason for needlessly alienating part of their fan base.

How 'bout the 'tude that it's up to those alienated to find a work around that doesn't exist yet or a $700 premium solution that really should be down to the cost of a connector.

It's called planned obsolescence, in this case IEEE 1394, and it's a mostly discredited idea previously practiced by such paragons of virtue as Microsoft and GM.

Having defended Macs for good reasons in the pre iMac early dark days of 1998 when the public image of the company was near it's nadir, I'm neither stupid nor sorry.

 

[robanga]

While I doubt that Apple will phase out FW on it's 'pro' machines, the funny thing is that the 'consumer' machines need as much, if not more, storage bandwidth than the hi-end machines when it comes to dealing w/consumer cameras because iMovie and FCE can't edit any HD format natively. They transcode AVCHD and HDV into AIC for editing and while AIC is easier on the CPU it balloons the file sizes up to nearly 50gigs/hr (native HDV is around 13 gigs/hr). So someone using iMovie and a consumer HD camera has the same, or greater, storage needs than someone using FCP and a consumer HD camera.


Lethal

Can you explain that one a bit further to me? I have a Canon AVCHD camera (the HG10) and the editing process seems pretty straight forward to me. Also the output is no where near 50GB per hour of video. Perhaps you mean it just temporarily balloons it to that size for editing?

Thanks

 

[sigismundspikul]

Wasn't registered here but saw this message and had to reply...



You are obviously a professional and are fine with spending tens of thousands of dollars on equipment.

The Macbook is not for you. The Macbook Pro is. Problem solved.

As the previous poster said, don't take the lack of Firewire on the Macbook for a sign that Firewire is leaving the Mac platform immediately. But having said that, look at where Sony is going with the EX1 and Panasonic with their HVX200--both shooting to memory cards and can transfer in faster than real-time unlike Firewire--and you can see the end could well be near.

I don't know if I posted this earlier on this thread of if it was a different one, while I haven't personally used the p2 platform I can say first hand that the sony XDCAM format is far from real time transfers. very, very, very far. Transferring the physical data onto your hard drive is about 2.5 times the actual speed of tape, but in order to convert it from XDCAM's unworkable codec into a real format you would want to use like Pro Res 4:2:2 takes an excruciatingly long time.

Like as in it takes about 9 hours for every hour of footage for me to turn XDCAM into Pro Res, on my latest generation (before this last upgrade) macbook pro 15". For any substantial project it takes weeks if not months to get your footage even editable using just your laptop. Using any tape based workflow your always capturing in Pro Res 4:2:2 in real time, which is on the whole probably about 5-10% of the time it takes for XDCAM

Like I said, yes, I understand that solid state is an exciting and new technology, but it just isn't quite THERE yet. Too many flaws, not perfected, not fast enough, and the storage capacity/price ratio hasn't caught up to it yet.

If this attitude by apple is in any way an indicator of lack of support for firewire in the semi-near future it would be mucho mistake.

 

[Chris7]

Sure it is that's why they have product tiers and if the tiers get too close together, or the lower end model w/the smaller margin sells to well things get 'adjusted.'

...Apple's answer to was to remove FW which hurts 'regular' consumers as much as, if not more than, pro users looking for a quality budget machine.l

Ok, this makes sense.

I was really puzzled by this, so I read a lot of this post, just trying to figure out why the removal of firewire. Although I’m new to HD and FCP, I’ve edited SD in Adobe Premiere and Sony Vegas, and I’ve read a little about the current consumer and prosumer HD camcorders. Anyone editing video is going to at sometime need at least one firewire port (or faster), and probably two – one to input footage and another to put it on an external hard drive. The only explanation of the removal of firewire has to be to make people buy the MacBook Pro. Now, if I could only figure out why they removed the option of an anti-glare screen from the MacBook Pro...

Well I posted in another thread that Steve Jobs had emailed me back when I complained.

On 14 Oct 2008, at 23:26, Steve Jobs wrote:

The new digital camcorders that use USB are quite superior to the prior generations and feature full HD sensors and digital video output.

Steve

On 14 Oct 2008, at 21:32, Steve Jobs wrote:

Most digital camcorders have switched to USB and many have already dropped Firewire.

Steve
Myca

Apple’s response here is hilarious, Myca. Thanks for the post. I do wonder why they have representatives signing Steve’s name.

 

[Alain De Botton]

I dont get it...

This is nuts. I've been waiting for months for the new Macbook to start video editing from my Panasonic MiniDV GS320. This camera has both USB 2.0 and FW outputs for DV data, so I assumed the missing Firewire port on the new Macbook wouldn't be fatal. How wrong I was.

Sorry if this is old news, but it seems that, because my camera can be operated by both USB and Firewire, iMovie will only permit me to import my tapes via Firewire. Which is all well and good, if only the machine had the blasted port!

I had always loved macs for being totally integrated, logical systems, with software and hardware matching seamlessly. Until now.

Am I missing something really obvious? Please tell me I am, or that there is some other software out there that will allow me to import DVtapes via USB 2.0. Otherwise, it seems that Old Man Jobs has not only given the cold shoulder to all firewire users, but also to anyone whose camera happens to have a firewire port, regardless of its USB connectivity. And this from the company that invented that now abandoned interface...

Tell me i'm wrong, please!

 

[RedTomato]

OK I have to accept there's no firewire, and take a serious look at options, which brings me to my next question:

I have no concept of what non-FW cameras are worth looking at, so I can't make an informed decision to stick with FW or try a non-FW workflow.

Guys, (especially LethalWolfe) can please you throw out some names for what you think are the best non-firewire cameras to use with the new Alu macbooks?

- under $1000,
- and under $2-3000?

(Anyone considering a camera over $3k can probably also afford a MBP.)

Many thanks -RedTomato

 

[Courtaj]

This is nuts. I've been waiting for months for the new Macbook to start video editing from my Panasonic MiniDV GS320. This camera has both USB 2.0 and FW outputs for DV data, so I assumed the missing Firewire port on the new Macbook wouldn't be fatal.

The GS320, like all miniDV camcorders, uses firewire and firewire only to transfer moving pictures. The USB is for stills.

Andrew.

 

[Chris7]

Guys, (especially LethalWolfe) can please you throw out some names for what you think are the best non-firewire cameras to use with the new Alu macbooks?

Check out camcorderinfo.com for the $1K consumer camcorders. The consumer AVCHD Sonys and Canons come out almost a tie. Sony has better image stabilization and Canon offers 24P and 30P. I just bought a Canon HF100. I'm not unhappy with it on the whole, but I have to let you know the progressive scan is a joke. It stutters like crazy.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the next step up after the consumer HD camcorders is around $3K. A shootout of some apparently popular models here, but you'd still need firewire for most:
http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=192501232

Actually, if you have no firewire to hook up an external hard drive to, I don't see how you're going to work with HD footage on a Macbook anyway. So I guess it lacks the necessary ports (firewire or ExpressCard34) to edit with either SD or HD.

 

[ateslik]

So close to finally having a PowerBook 12" replacement back in the lineup but no cigar. Seriously, there are plenty of people out there who would like to have a smaller machine with MBP functionality. No firewire did away with that possibility. Figures, finally have the GPU power but no input

Hey, thats me!

X 2!

My two Powerbook 12" machines, chugging along. PowerPC and they STILL whoop these new macbooks. Its completely pathetic.

FIREWIRE IN A 12 or 13 INCH FORM FACTOR PLEASE APPLE!

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

Makes me appreciate my firewire-Macbook even more. I thought it would be a transitional laptop and now I realize that it actually has more going for it than any current Macbook available on the market!

 

[Chaos123x]

Non firewire camcorder?

I don't know of any good ones, they are all those cheap consumer cameras without manual features (besides menu stuff). They use USB.

Any prosumer worth getting has firewire or uses express card sxs.
They range for around $1500 to $6,000. They all use Firewire.

True Pro cameras that a television station would use start at $10,000 without a lens and go up beyond $100,000. They use SDI.

 

[Willis]

I think my own Macbook has gained an extra quid or so in value.. I dont video edit on it because I use FCS and I have the MacPro for that.. but I dont agree in giving people GPU power and then taking away a form of functionality that someone can use and cheaply too!

 

[Alain De Botton]

The GS320, like all miniDV camcorders, uses firewire and firewire only to transfer moving pictures. The USB is for stills.

Andrew.

Not true - I have tried capturing video on the USB connector on a PC and that works fine - its just the mac which refuses to capture video from a miniDV tape on USB 2.0.

Nuts, and so inconsistent.