New Macbook - no Firewire!

Non firewire camcorder?

I don't know of any good ones, they are all those cheap consumer cameras without manual features (besides menu stuff). They use USB.

Check Sony and Canon again or one of the camera review sites. They each have several models north of about $800. These are AVCHD type HD cameras and there is not a FW connector even on them.

Canon as an example-

HG20 (The successor to the HG10 that I own, also no FW)
HG21
HF10
HF11
HF100

...the only new model of their HD Cameras that seems to have retained firewire is the HV20? (Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
 
For Sony - A lot of their cameras are no longer doing FW either;

HDR-SR10D
HDR-SR11
HDR-SR12
HDR-TG1
HDR-UX10
HDR-UX20

They certainly do not mention it in their specs if they have the connection, so I am doubting they do. So it would seem that the only cameras that are using Firewire are the tape based models. The ones using either flash or hard disks are not.

You certainly can not call the models mentioned from Canon or Sony "cheap consumer based cameras" because they are all over $800
 
I was a bit disappointed when I first heard the news but not anymore. I have two external drives that I use. The first drive is connected to the MacBook while the other second drive is chained to the first drive. I also have a third generation iPod that use firewire.

This morning I discovered that both of my drives came with optional USB cords so I can use that instead (the cords are still in the box). My iPod can be powered by either of the externals. So I'm in the clear.

This won't solve everyone's problem but perhaps this will help in getting some of you to really look at all the connection/cable options you have.
 
You certainly can not call the models mentioned from Canon or Sony "cheap consumer based cameras" because they are all over $800

I think when people say 'cheap' they refer to it being around $1000, not that the cameras are Playmobile cameras. Prosumer cameras such as the very popular Canon XH-A1 don't have a USB port. You can always make the case that people with cameras that expensive should be buying a MacBook Pro anyway, but there would be many that disagree with you.

Also, you mention the HV20 and HV30 as cameras that don't have USB. Both those cameras are currently incredibly popular. The fact that they are now obsolete when it comes to consumers probably makes many consumers (not to mention Canon) mighty upset.

Thanks for the list though. I would agree that the number of cameras without firewire is ever growing with the introduction of more hard drive based cameras. I think the biggest complaint with Apple's decision is, however, that firewire-only cameras are still being sold in large quantities and Apple decided to screw anyone that purchased one.

P-Worm
 
I imagine if anyone is going to buy a $3000+ camera, a MBP is more in line with their needs?

Indeed the HV20 has been a very popular camera. Really anyone with a firewire camera should not be too upset because your options are still many. Either the iMacs or the MBP or the white MacBook. If you wanted a new MacBook then you have a choice to make as to whether you want it enough to get a new camera.

It may be the beginning of the phase out for FW, but its real early in that process. Chances are before it is gone from the line, they will have moved on to other cameras.
 
Also, you mention the HV20 and HV30 as cameras that don't have USB. Both those cameras are currently incredibly popular. The fact that they are now obsolete when it comes to consumers probably makes many consumers (not to mention Canon) mighty upset.

I agree that consumers that currently own FW equipment may be upset with the new Macbooks (I certainly am not happy about it), I disagree with the notion that Canon would be upset.

Canon (and others) are well on their way to abandoning FW completely. I doubt that there will be a replacement for the HV30, meanwhile, Canon keeps churning out the AVCHD cams. They dropped the Elura line 2 years ago and I doubt they'll be making many more ZRs.

It looks like my next HD camcorder will be a USB based one. Or maybe I'll sit it out completely and upgrade my dSLR to one that has an HD movie mode.

ft
 
It may be the beginning of the phase out for FW, but its real early in that process.
Perhaps, but shouldn't that "process" be driven by camcorder manufacturers, and not a computing manufacturer who - fairly arbitrarily and ostensibly for wholly cynical sales strategy reasons - decides unilaterally to yank the rug out from under?
 
I imagine if anyone is going to buy a $3000+ camera, a MBP is more in line with their needs?

Indeed the HV20 has been a very popular camera. Really anyone with a firewire camera should not be too upset because your options are still many. Either the iMacs or the MBP or the white MacBook. If you wanted a new MacBook then you have a choice to make as to whether you want it enough to get a new camera.

It may be the beginning of the phase out for FW, but its real early in that process. Chances are before it is gone from the line, they will have moved on to other cameras.

Not true. If you are a professional and want a small form factor notebook for location work, the MB was the only option. As a video professional the cameras I use all use firewire and most of the cameras that I would consider as a replacement use firewire.
What Apple is forcing me to do is to move everything in my business to PC.
I also teach high school video production and all we use is firewire. There are still inexpensive cameras available with firewire like the Canon ZR series and the Vixias. If Apple is abandoning firewire then I will move my editing labs to PC's We need cameras and editing systems that support firewire. The ironic thing is that Apple hasn't made FCE or FCP so that you can capture to USB, and they're not like to because it's not a good standard. So to edit in those programs from USB cameras you have to use proprietary software and workarounds. Not good.
 
High school drama

Not true. If you are a professional and want a small form factor notebook for location work, the MB was the only option. As a video professional the cameras I use all use firewire and most of the cameras that I would consider as a replacement use firewire.
What Apple is forcing me to do is to move everything in my business to PC.
I also teach high school video production and all we use is firewire. There are still inexpensive cameras available with firewire like the Canon ZR series and the Vixias. If Apple is abandoning firewire then I will move my editing labs to PC's We need cameras and editing systems that support firewire. The ironic thing is that Apple hasn't made FCE or FCP so that you can capture to USB, and they're not like to because it's not a good standard. So to edit in those programs from USB cameras you have to use proprietary software and workarounds. Not good.

Get a MBP or wait till the next revision. Your HS lab did not catch fire last Tuesday and I'm pretty sure that high Schools atleast around here don't buy laptops for their labs... so that would leave IMacs or Mac Pro's as your options for that both have firewire.

BTW FCP is not supported by apple on a macbook so that is not a valid argument.

and seriously if you think about it you will spend more getting a PC to be as useable as a mac for editing.
 
Get a MBP or wait till the next revision. Your HS lab did not catch fire last Tuesday and I'm pretty sure that high Schools atleast around here don't buy laptops for their labs... so that would leave IMacs or Mac Pro's as your options for that both have firewire.

BTW FCP is not supported by apple on a macbook so that is not a valid argument.

and seriously if you think about it you will spend more getting a PC to be as useable as a mac for editing.

sfh,

editguy wrote about two different scenarios. In the first scenario, he laments the fact that the new MB doesn't have FW. As a professional, he wants/needs a small laptop with FW. The MBP is probably too big for his tastes. No drama there.

In the second scenario, editguy talks about a HS lab that he runs. He posits that he may have to switch to PCs if Apple abandons FW. There is no mention of Macbooks in his HS lab. He is merely contemplating whether Apple intends to drop FW in all of their "consumer" Macs and what he'd do if they did.

At least that's how I read it.

ft
 
Explanation

sfh,

editguy wrote about two different scenarios. In the first scenario, he laments the fact that the new MB doesn't have FW. As a professional, he wants/needs a small laptop with FW. The MBP is probably too big for his tastes. No drama there.

In the second scenario, editguy talks about a HS lab that he runs. He posits that he may have to switch to PCs if Apple abandons FW. There is no mention of Macbooks in his HS lab. He is merely contemplating whether Apple intends to drop FW in all of their "consumer" Macs and what he'd do if they did.

At least that's how I read it.

ft

I fully understand he arguments... it's just not all that rational being as such that if people dont like the offerings that this one model has they don't have to buy it ... there are other options out there. I don't believe for one second that apple is intending to remove firewire from all it's machines since it is the only useable/reliable interface for DV.

Apple took firewire out of this one model so if they need firewire for what they do then they need to buy one of the models that have it. Or wait till the next revision. or in editguys position get a pc if they are comfortable with the losses that that brings
 
Get a MBP or wait till the next revision. Your HS lab did not catch fire last Tuesday and I'm pretty sure that high Schools atleast around here don't buy laptops for their labs... so that would leave IMacs or Mac Pro's as your options for that both have firewire.

BTW FCP is not supported by apple on a macbook so that is not a valid argument.

and seriously if you think about it you will spend more getting a PC to be as useable as a mac for editing.

I made that mistake - I couldn't get a $1,500 Dell Windows PC to do video editing properly.

At least I had a FW external DVD burner and I got a basic stock Mini - do video editing on that for $579 without a hitch... :eek:

Maybe Apple's up on that, and if they get rid of FW on the Mini, it's just a message to consumers to "go up to" an iMac instead.
 
I made that mistake - I couldn't get a $1,500 Dell Windows PC to do video editing properly.

At least I had a FW external DVD burner and I got a basic stock Mini - do video editing on that for $579 without a hitch... :eek:

Maybe Apple's up on that, and if they get rid of FW on the Mini, it's just a message to consumers to "go up to" an iMac instead.

Exactly! There's so many people who will go off of the minimum requirements for software to run... but in the real world it doesn't work that way.

I think that was one of the biggest mistakes MSFT did with Vista was to say that it would run on lower requirements. Yeah it boots up but performance is miserable and forget multi tasking.

The MacBook works alright for video editing but it's not the best choice and it can make apple look bad when people have problems.

It's like cutting steak with a butter knife... it cuts but why not just use the right tool for the job?
 
Exactly! There's so many people who will go off of the minimum requirements for software to run... but in the real world it doesn't work that way.

I think that was one of the biggest mistakes MSFT did with Vista was to say that it would run on lower requirements. Yeah it boots up but performance is miserable and forget multi tasking.

The MacBook works alright for video editing but it's not the best choice and it can make apple look bad when people have problems.

It's like cutting steak with a butter knife... it cuts but why not just use the right tool for the job?

that is totally irrelevant. If Apple thought the MB could not do video, why promote it? why give the customer video apps that will not work?
 
The MacBook works alright for video editing but it's not the best choice and it can make apple look bad when people have problems.

It's like cutting steak with a butter knife... it cuts but why not just use the right tool for the job?
I disagree with this statement. Yeah, Apple must have their reasons for dropping FW in the Macbook, but I decided long ago to stop getting pissed at what Apple includes/removes from their products. Apple always seems to hit the right mark anyways.

As far as the Macbook not being up to the task of video editing ... I find that to be wrong. Macbooks are extremely capable of editing both SD and HD video and the newest Macbooks even more so. iMovie can easily hand HDV and/or AVCHD since it transcodes to AIC anyways. The consumer's choice is AVCHD, and if anything, editing AVCHD natively is tougher than HDV.

Apple promotes video editing on all of their machines (as evidenced by iLife). The Macbook is not a butter knife when it comes to video editing.
 
The MacBook works alright for video editing but it's not the best choice and it can make apple look bad when people have problems.
Given that G4 computers can handle DV and AIC (the two formats the iApps and FCE use) I don't think the MB is 'underpowered' for the consumer market they are targeted for. Heck, just about any intel-based Mac is faster than the G5s that are used by most of the editors where I work.


Lethal
 
that is totally irrelevant. If Apple thought the MB could not do video, why promote it? why give the customer video apps that will not work?

I didn't say that the MacBook could not do video, i said that it does not do video on par with the MBP or iMac or MP

You can shoot video on iSight, use USB to transfer data files to edit, or for small projects transfer using USB. on both iMovie and FCE (FCP is not supported for Macbook)

There are tons of consumer level products that can be used for professional quality but it's not always the right tool for the job or the best use of your time. If this is your source of income then function should come over form... in other words getting a computer that has Firewire is more important than having a computer that is 13" instead of 15"

Yes it costs more but that is the price to play the game at least for the time being. It still is cheaper than going out and buying new cameras. or just wait till the next revision
 
Exactly! There's so many people who will go off of the minimum requirements for software to run... but in the real world it doesn't work that way.

I think that was one of the biggest mistakes MSFT did with Vista was to say that it would run on lower requirements. Yeah it boots up but performance is miserable and forget multi tasking.

The MacBook works alright for video editing but it's not the best choice and it can make apple look bad when people have problems.

It's like cutting steak with a butter knife... it cuts but why not just use the right tool for the job?
I'm sure we forgot iMovie HD shipped on the iBook and PowerBook G4.
 
I'm sure we forgot iMovie HD shipped on the iBook and PowerBook G4.

iMovie works great for small projects or throwing pictures to music. I use it all the time for that, and FCE is great too.

However there is a big difference between a MB and a MBP in the amount of time that it takes to edit and render frames. My 1st gen MBP is still faster than the current MB that has more memory and a faster processor when it comes to editing and rendering.

Apple will probably give back a firewire option in the next revision, I'm sure it was a space limitation issue and it was assumed that on the consumer level that firewire was not that important.
 
Please put my firewire back, Mac

Understood, but keep in mind Apple officially does not support, FW capture from the DV camera then to a FW drive. Even though it may be possible, especially from FW 400 to a FW 800 device....

I used to work at Apple on the FCP QA team, our official stance was and I believe still is today, Apple (and FCP) does not support FW capture from the DV camera and then to a FW drive.

Good grief! Thanks for this tip. What amazing news. I am flabbergasted that they don't support it. I thought it was what firewire was for. I do it all the time. (FW capture from the DV camera and then to a FW drive, that is)

My desktop computer is a 1 GHz eMac (2 Firewire 400 ports and several USB 1 ports, yes USB One). I replaced the original 60 GHz hard drive with a 320 Gb but even that is too small for storing much video. So I have 6 firewire 400 drives permanently hooked up to this computer via firewire hubs. Each drive is between 500 and 750 GHz.

I use Canon HV20 video cameras. I film in HDV at 1920 x 1080. I store these HDV videos as archives for when I buy a new firewire-port computer that is fast enough to capture them at something faster than 1/8th speed. This means my next computer will HAVE TO HAVE firewire ports. (Steve Jobs please note that last sentence).

In the meantime I capture my HDV tapes as SDV. I capture them via firewire through the iMovie'06 on the eMac directly onto an external 750 Gb firewire hard drive. Then I convert to Quicktime (Don't ask why, its what works) and use Toast 8 to make 576i PAL DVDs.

Note to the whole world — the USB port on the Canon HV20s are for the still photos ONLY, i.e. those stored on the mini SD card. The video will only transfer via firewire.

Tape is not history. Most of today's video cameras that cost around 4,000 to 10,000 euros seem to use it. Some say the quality is better than using cards and MP4 compression, I don't know. But for me the biggest advantage is the cheapness and long life of tapes. The 1 hour cassettes cost 2 euros each and as all my old VHS cassettes are still good, even after 30 years, I expect the DV cassettes will last at least as long. And I can make direct high definition copies, camera to camera, apparently with no loss of quality.

But what I cannot do, without a computer with firewire ports, is to get them into a computer and edit them, either to
1 - make PAL standard definition DVDs now, or
2 - in future make high definition blue ray disks for my 1920 x 1080 HDTV.
I must have firewire.

I like my eMac, particularly for the subtle colour nuances of its CRT screen when working with the tens of thousands of photos I have scanned, but it is 4-5 years old and I am looking for another computer that will process HDV at an acceptable speed.

Dropping the firewire from the new Macbook has me worried. If Apple drops firewire from the next versions of its desktop models what do I do regarding video???

I have "thought different" for 23 years, always buying Macs (1 every 2 years), spreading the gospel, recommending them to others, for 23 years, ever since the Mac Plus and WYSIWYG meant I did not have to write my own programmes in "Basic" any more.
Now, all of a sudden the magic has dulled. I am thinking different alright but in a different, different way. This weekend I went out, put on dark glasses, turned my collar up, and bought some PC and Linux magazines.
I was surprised at all the ports they can offer, USB, Firewire, HDMI, express card slots...and the prices, and range of applications.

What I would buy if it came out by Xmas is a new desktop Mac with a separate screen. Something reasonably portable. Not as big as the present tower - I only need one hard drive in it, and one optical drive, but something more powerful and openable than the present Mac minis. I'd like room for lots of RAM. I'd like enough speed to edit HD video, real HD, like is now transmitted in France at 1920 x 1080, not that 720 stuff, and I want an excellent graphics chip that can show my video smoothly on a 24 inch 1920 x 1080 screen AND on an external 32 inch 1920 x 1080 HDTV.
It should have Firewire ports, and an express card slot, preferably 2, and an HDMI connector. A blue-ray optical drive is not necessary unless they become almost as cheap as CD drives (I can always buy a separate Blue Ray drive later, hopefully a blue-ray writer within 12 months). Why the separate screen ? Because computers become obsolete after a few years. Everything I've read about LCD screens claims they can last for decades. Shame to throw out a good screen with a past-it computer. Can you do it Mac?? If so I'm yours again.
 
I'm sure we forgot iMovie HD shipped on the iBook and PowerBook G4.

Not only did it ship with the iBook and PowerBook G4, but it was fully supported on the 12" iBook which never got a superdrive, so users had to get a supported external burner to get their movies off.

Which reminds me....

Final Cut Express and Final Cut Studio Pro 2 are FULLY supported on the Macbook and MacBook Pro.

EXCEPT....

You won't be able to run Color or Motion 2 which tax the GPU heavily as they should.

You can run Final Cut Pro/Express, Live Type, Soundtrack, Compressor (which runs like molasses), and just about everything save for the big two run well enough to use the MacBook as an editor.
 
My response to Apple feedback: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

I DON'T BELIEVE APPLE LISTEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS but I'm writing now because I'm so upset, disappointed and shocked at the loss of the functionality that Firewire gave use, that I can't let this moment go without response.

The breathtaking arrogance of removing such an important legacy interface means that I can no longer trust Apple to provide me with the tools I need to keep working.

As I don't trust Apple — and trust is the ONE thing companies can't afford to destroy; I just don't feel safe relying on Apple computers any more.

12 years of evangelical Mac use and their promotion — through the dark ages of OS 7.6 and the uncertainties of OS X 10.1 to now; a numb, cold sense that Apple DON'T ASK, DON'T LISTEN and DON'T CARE.

There's a party going on at Apple, the music's pounding and the cash is rolling in but the musicians, photographers, videographers and creatives who have shown the world how useful and flexible the Mac is have had the door slammed in their faces. For what; a $7 port on the side of a laptop?
It makes no sense, so what faith can there be that Apple won't make just as arrogant and senseless a decision in the future.

The Mac's market share is rising; Apple won't miss me at all in the head long rush to join the Apple party. I know plenty of people, savvy in both PC and Apple worlds who wouldn't give up their PC, it's flexibility and hardware choice, for the world.
They're not stupid or frightened people, in fact they're empowered and aware enough to deal with the complexities of Windows which have frightened away so many of the feeble, into the arms of Apple.

The reward for coping with that complexity is the opportunity to buy whatever hardware they need to get the job done. No enslavement to One voice, One power, One supplier.
I must say I'm daunted at the prospect but I know I won't be the only one who has to face it.
 
FireWire vs. USB 2.0 - Architecture

FireWire, uses a "Peer-to-Peer" architecture in which the peripherals are intelligent and can negotiate bus conflicts to determine which device can best control a data transfer


Hi-Speed USB 2.0 uses a "Master-Slave" architecture in which the computer handles all arbitration functions and dictates data flow to, from and between the attached peripherals (adding additional system overhead and resulting in slower data flow control)

FireWire vs. USB 2.0 Hard Drive Performance Comparison
Read and write tests to the same IDE hard drive connected using FireWire and then Hi-Speed USB 2.0 show:

Read Test:

5000 files (300 MB total) FireWire was 33% faster than USB 2.0
160 files (650MB total) FireWire was 70% faster than USB 2.0
Write Test:

5000 files (300 MB total) FireWire was 16% faster than USB 2.0
160 files (650MB total) FireWire was 48% faster than USB 2.0
 
I would think that the macbook is aimed at the more 'fiscally challenged' of Apple's customers. The very people who tend to buy and then hang on to equipment - like camcorders. The very people who cannot solve a problem by throwing money at it. The very peope who would have been lured to an apple macbook by its ease, range and efficacy of use. All the latter have been compromised by the simple removal of firewire connectivity.

Will they correct it in the future? Or is it a case of 'Apple giveth and Apple taketh away'?
 
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