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Oh I hope i never gave off the impression that I was "shocked". I've ALWAYS hated the "reality" trend since the very beginning (I was probably around 10 at the time). I was just pointing out that if you stop and think for a second (which your not supposed to do in this day and age according to advertisers) theres holes all over. I dont personally care that much, its just fun to talk about :p

Call it "reality", though I suspect she was following a script. If you look at any advertisement/marketing there are holes all over it. Send some fanbois to go through her garbage and I am certain more interesting facts will turn up! She could even be a mac user.... she might own a mac, she might not be a redhead. It all does not matter, she got paid to do an ad, where she acted as an "average consumer" who had $1000 to spend on a laptop.... and being a microsoft ad she was going to buy a PC.

Point of ad . Mac = expansive, PC = cheap, Economy = Bad

I also see that her statement about not being cool enough to be a Mac user has really got to some people. Now what company drilled it into us with their advertising that using Apple products Are cool???? Smug tosser from the Apple ads anyone???
 
Well theres good talk and bad talk. From the looks of it they havent shaken much if any of us, but for the broader audience id say they deffinatly plucked some of the low hanging fruit.

Quite probably so, but there is just a little problem in that those consumers who are gullible enough to be said low hangers ... are literally just hanging on in this economy.

As such, its questionable that the successfully 'sold' customer even has $699 in discretionary funds for getting the HP.


On a more humorous note, I'd not mind being a fly on the wall when "Lauren" buys her friends a round of drinks with her $301 left over, to see how much grief they've been giving her. :cool:


-hh
 
On a more humorous note, I'd not mind being a fly on the wall when "Lauren" buys her friends a round of drinks with her $301 left over, to see how much grief they've been giving her. :cool:

You kidding me? I doubt she even wants that POS machine. It's probably on ebay right now still brand new and unopened :)
 
Can We Get Real

Just configured a Dell XPS laptop (closest thing Dell makes that competes with the Macbook) on their website.

After doing my best to configure it the same as a Macbook (couldn't remove that cancer known as Vista from it) the price came to $1437 before shipping. Admittedly, the Dell came with 4GB of memory, though only DDR2 800 instead of the DDR3 that the MB has.

I paid $1500 for my MB. Another $60 to upgrade the memory to 4GB. So, for roughly $100 savings, I can get a cheap, plastic wannabe MB, with the worst OS since Windows ME, full of advertising crapware, that comes with a free subscription to McAfee, because it needs it...
 
Just configured a Dell XPS laptop (closest thing Dell makes that competes with the Macbook) on their website.

After doing my best to configure it the same as a Macbook (couldn't remove that cancer known as Vista from it) the price came to $1437 before shipping. Admittedly, the Dell came with 4GB of memory, though only DDR2 800 instead of the DDR3 that the MB has.

I paid $1500 for my MB. Another $60 to upgrade the memory to 4GB. So, for roughly $100 savings, I can get a cheap, plastic wannabe MB, with the worst OS since Windows ME, full of advertising crapware, that comes with a free subscription to McAfee, because it needs it...

How about you actually configure the Macbook on the apple site. selecting 4GB and 320GB HD the price already goes to $1774.

You also cannot take into account discounts etc. Assume that the a buyer has no discount either with the Dell or the PC to be neutral.

Also

I got $1119 - for the following system. What am i missing? We are talking Macbook 2.4 V Dell 13 XPS right?

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo P8600 (3MB cache/2.4GHz/1066Mhz FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-bit
Obsidian Black with Leather Accent
Microsoft Works 9.0 - English: Spreadsheet, Word Processor and Calendar
1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
Edge-to-Edge 13.3" HD WXGA LCD with 2.0 Megapixel Camera
4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz (2 Dimms)
320GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive
Slot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write)
NVIDIA® GeForce® 9400M G
Dell Wireless 1510 802.11n Half Mini-Card
High Definition Audio 2.0
Dell Wireless 370 Bluetooth Module (2.1+EDR)
 
Lefsetz sucks at writing. His crappy article "The Neverending Story" is packed full of sentence fragments. He desperately needs to learn when to use a period, semicolon and comma, as well as how to properly start a sentence with "because."

I didn't post his stuff here to defend it or anything, just thought it was relevant is all. That said, I think you miss the spirit of his stuff...its not intended to come across as what you're expecting...more conversational, stream of consciousness than formal literature. It is what it is.
 
Just configured a Dell XPS laptop (closest thing Dell makes that competes with the Macbook) on their website.

After doing my best to configure it the same as a Macbook (couldn't remove that cancer known as Vista from it) the price came to $1437 before shipping. Admittedly, the Dell came with 4GB of memory, though only DDR2 800 instead of the DDR3 that the MB has.

I paid $1500 for my MB. Another $60 to upgrade the memory to 4GB. So, for roughly $100 savings, I can get a cheap, plastic wannabe MB, with the worst OS since Windows ME, full of advertising crapware, that comes with a free subscription to McAfee, because it needs it...

Dell Studio XPS 13: 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo (same as the MBP), Vista Home Premium, LED backlit display, 4GB DDR3 1066, 320GB 7200RPM HDD, DVD writer, GeForce 9400M + 9500M 256MB running in Hybrid SLI, comes with 2 USB 2.0, 1 shared USB 2.0/eSATA, VGA, Firewire, full size ExpressCard, HDMI (digital audio over HDMI), memory card reader, and all the other usual things PCs come with. Price? $1324. Take out the LED display and keep the rest the same and its about $1200. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-studio-xps-13?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

Also, as I've pointed out many times before and I'm sure other people have as well, this whole "the XPS is the only thing even close to a MacBook that Dell makes" argument and other arguments like this completely and utterly fail.

Why do they fail? Because the majority of people who buy MacBooks, not those on this forum but real people, buy it because its the only one Mac they can afford. They don't go into an Apple store and say "ooh I want this system because its small!" No, they go into the Apple store, head towards the 15.4" system and say "wow this is $2,000, what else do they have?".

For all but a small number of people, $999, $1299, etc. is a lot of money. A whole lot of money, even in a good economy. For the majority of them, $1299 is pushing the limit of their budget. Despite what the diehards would love to have you believe, people are not buying the MacBook for its supposed features or supposed build quality. They're buying it because they want a Mac, and $999 or $1299 is all they can afford to spend and they have no other choice if they want a Mac.

And again, this is another thing this ad highlights. Choice. Macs just don't give you the options and choices that PCs do. You either do what Apple wants or you don't get it. PC manufacturers are willing to make products for all customers, not just those willing to compromise. You can get a combination of whatever features you want. Where Apple basically says you have to do it this way or no way at all. As someone from MS put it, with Apple its "the iWay or the highway". Theres no choice.

Perfect example: Jobs has called the MacBook the "consumer" machine and the MacBook Pro is obviously the "Pro" machine, despite the fact that it uses consumer grade parts and has nothing in common with actual "Pro" machines built by other companies. But anyway. The MacBook is a "consumer" machine. So Apple is telling us that all consumers only need and want 13.3" displays with integrated graphics? We don't want larger displays, dedicated graphics, HDMI, card readers, full size ExpressCard, blu-ray etc? We only want 13.3" with only 2 USB 2.0 ports for expansion? I'm a "consumer". Why can't I have a "consumer" machine with a 16" display, blu-ray, GeForce 9800M GTS 1GB, HDMI, TV tuner, etc? Oh, I can. But not an Apple machine. The only thing that comes close is the 15.4" MacBook Pro. But it has no HDMI, it starts out with 1/4 the video memory on a GPU thats half as fast, no built-in TV tuner, smaller display, no possibility of blu-ray.. Its the "iWay" or the highway. Compromise.

Please explain to me, also, how Vista is the worst OS since Windows ME. I've been using Vista since launch and I've never personally experienced or seen the problems that Apple would have you believe Vista has. My experience has been that Vista was far more stable out of the gate than Leopard and continues to be. Plus it let's me do things that Leopard does not, like set custom resolutions when connected to my HDTV, play blu-ray movies, games, proper external display support without having to resort to trickery like sleeping the system and using external devices to wake it up, etc. etc. etc. And explain how Windows ME was bad as well, seeing as how thats another OS I used and never had a problem with.

Oh and do your research too. Modern PCs generally only come with a trial of Office and Norton. Everything else included is full version software, and all the little icons on the desktop are just shortcuts to websites. Highlight, right click, delete all. Simple.
 
How about you actually configure the Macbook on the apple site. selecting 4GB and 320GB HD the price already goes to $1774.

You also cannot take into account discounts etc. Assume that the a buyer has no discount either with the Dell or the PC to be neutral.

Also

I got $1119 - for the following system. What am i missing? We are talking Macbook 2.4 V Dell 13 XPS right?

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo P8600 (3MB cache/2.4GHz/1066Mhz FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-bit
Obsidian Black with Leather Accent
Microsoft Works 9.0 - English: Spreadsheet, Word Processor and Calendar
1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
Edge-to-Edge 13.3" HD WXGA LCD with 2.0 Megapixel Camera
4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz (2 Dimms)
320GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive
Slot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write)
NVIDIA® GeForce® 9400M G
Dell Wireless 1510 802.11n Half Mini-Card
High Definition Audio 2.0
Dell Wireless 370 Bluetooth Module (2.1+EDR)

What fool buys ram from any OEM, let alone Apple? Same goes for the hard drive. If it's one thing Apple definitely overcharges for, it's upgrades.
 
What fool buys ram from any OEM, let alone Apple? Same goes for the hard drive. If it's one thing Apple definitely overcharges for, it's upgrades.

Majority of users. Alot of people have issues with opening up their new purchase. Till the unibody it was not that easy to access the HD. Opening up a mac mini is something an average user would not do. Anyone comfortable opening up computers will never buy from Apple an upgraded HD or Ram. Your average user, will buy the upgrades from apple.
 
Majority of users. Alot of people have issues with opening up their new purchase. Till the unibody it was not that easy to access the HD. Opening up a mac mini is something an average user would not do. Anyone comfortable opening up computers will never buy from Apple an upgraded HD or Ram. Your average user, will buy the upgrades from apple.

Then they'll continue to get screwed, just as they would from Lenovo, HP, and Dell.
 
the ad is not about an equivalent laptop!

Just configured a Dell XPS laptop (closest thing Dell makes that competes with the Macbook) on their website.

After doing my best to configure it the same as a Macbook...

The ad is not trying to say that the $700 HP is equivalent to the $2800 MBP - so please don't waste time with these "I priced a Dell" exercises.

The problem is that you are assuming that each feature of the MBP is important (that it "has value") to the purchaser.

That's often not the case. For example, if Lauren wanted the 17" screen for watching movies from her dorm bed - the added resolution of the MBP 17" would have no value to her. In fact, if she had vision issues, the lower resolution screen might have more value to her.

The ad is about finding something that fits in a budget, not that the budget computer is as good as the one that costs more than 3 times as much.


What fool buys ram from any OEM, let alone Apple? Same goes for the hard drive. If it's one thing Apple definitely overcharges for, it's upgrades.

Majority of users. Alot of people have issues with opening up their new purchase.

Then they'll continue to get screwed, just as they would from Lenovo, HP, and Dell.

It's worth some premium to get the OEM RAM. I'll usually buy it with the system, unless the "OEM Tax" is excessive.

I've had a lot of problems with 3rd party RAM on some systems (I'm looking at you, Opteron), and it's not worth my time to troubleshoot for the most part.

Particularly with the next-day on-site service that I get from HP and Dell, I don't want to have to shuffle DIMMs about to make sure that a system has all OEM RAM, then try to reproduce the problem.

Only if the OEM Tax is excessive and I can't fit the memory I need into my budget, then I'll get Crucial or Kingston.
 
The ad is not trying to say that the $700 HP is equivalent to the $2800 MBP - so please don't waste time with these "I priced a Dell" exercises.

The problem is that you are assuming that each feature of the MBP is important (that it "has value") to the purchaser.

That's often not the case. For example, if Lauren wanted the 17" screen for watching movies from her dorm bed - the added resolution of the MBP 17" would have no value to her. In fact, if she had vision issues, the lower resolution screen might have more value to her.

The ad is about finding something that fits in a budget, not that the budget computer is as good as the one that costs more than 3 times as much.








It's worth some premium to get the OEM RAM. I'll usually buy it with the system, unless the "OEM Tax" is excessive.

I've had a lot of problems with 3rd party RAM on some systems (I'm looking at you, Opteron), and it's not worth my time to troubleshoot for the most part.

Particularly with the next-day on-site service that I get from HP and Dell, I don't want to have to shuffle DIMMs about to make sure that a system has all OEM RAM, then try to reproduce the problem.

Only if the OEM Tax is excessive and I can't fit the memory I need into my budget, then I'll get Crucial or Kingston.

I guess I can see that from Dell. We no longer deal with them based upon a string of bad experiences, but with HP we get memory aftermarket, because our vendor guarantees it and is really good at taking care of things if we do get a bad stick.

For hard drives we just use whatever comes standard for desktops and workstations, because everything's network-based anyway, so size doesn't matter. For servers, most of them don't come with drives, you pick what you want. In that case, we go with HP's branded drives.

Lenovo is a different story. They tend to be as overpriced as Apple when it comes to RAM and drives, so when I order laptops, I upgrade the RAM, and we either keep the stock drive, or I upgrade that as well and keep the stockers as spares.
 
I didn't see this posted yet (OK, didn't look that hard either). It's funny, so worth a repost anyway, at least IMHO. It's from Joy of Tech http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/index.html



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It's worth some premium to get the OEM RAM. I'll usually buy it with the system, unless the "OEM Tax" is excessive.

I've had a lot of problems with 3rd party RAM on some systems (I'm looking at you, Opteron), and it's not worth my time to troubleshoot for the most part.

Particularly with the next-day on-site service that I get from HP and Dell, I don't want to have to shuffle DIMMs about to make sure that a system has all OEM RAM, then try to reproduce the problem.

Only if the OEM Tax is excessive and I can't fit the memory I need into my budget, then I'll get Crucial or Kingston.

Exactly...although I'm not an engineer who deals with workstation clusters and blade servers, I've tried the whole third-party RAM thing before with my own PCs and Mac and it was more trouble than it was worth. I've found that generally, the hassle isn't worth the savings.
 
Exactly...although I'm not an engineer who deals with workstation clusters and blade servers, I've tried the whole third-party RAM thing before with my own PCs and Mac and it was more trouble than it was worth. I've found that generally, the hassle isn't worth the savings.

It really depends on who've you've got standing behind the products. We've got a dedicated account rep with a warehouse 30 minutes away. The savings being quite drastic in some cases, it is worth it for the 2% of bad RAM we get.

But yeah I can see it not always being worth it for everyone. I guess we're willing to tinker.
 
What fool buys ram from any OEM, let alone Apple? Same goes for the hard drive. If it's one thing Apple definitely overcharges for, it's upgrades.

Geez. Don't be so arrogant. Just because YOU feel at ease cracking a case, buying 3rd party RAM, HDs, etc. doesn't mean most people do. Any many that do, don't have the time, especially if they are a small video editing shop that buys multiple machines at one time and can't afford to waste time installing RAM and HDs in them.

Apple upgrades are expensive because they are offering a service to install them for you. I personally do my own upgrades because I know what I'm doing and I only buy one computer at a time. But I certainly see the value offered under different circumstances. And it is no different for any other computer manufacturer or computer shop.
 
How about you actually configure the Macbook on the apple site. selecting 4GB and 320GB HD the price already goes to $1774.

If you buy either through the Apple store, you're nuts. (unlike the "desktops") The Macbooks are very easy to upgrade and memory are hard drives are cheap. The biggest and fastest 500GB 7200RPM drive tops out at $140 at new egg.
 
Geez. Don't be so arrogant. Just because YOU feel at ease cracking a case, buying 3rd party RAM, HDs, etc. doesn't mean most people do. Any many that do, don't have the time, especially if they are a small video editing shop that buys multiple machines at one time and can't afford to waste time installing RAM and HDs in them.

Apple upgrades are expensive because they are offering a service to install them for you. I personally do my own upgrades because I know what I'm doing and I only buy one computer at a time. But I certainly see the value offered under different circumstances. And it is no different for any other computer manufacturer or computer shop.

There's nothing arrogant about being a smart consumer that replaces user-replaceable parts. Apple's upgrade costs exceed what is reasonable for installation costs. For instance, I just saved $1000 buying RAM from OWC for our new Mac Pro coming in over what Apple charges. Extreme case? Probably. But it doesn't cost $1000 of my time to install a few sticks of RAM.
 
It really depends on who've you've got standing behind the products. We've got a dedicated account rep with a warehouse 30 minutes away.

But yeah I can see it not always being worth it for everyone. I guess we're willing to tinker.

A system down, and a few hours of tinkering, usually costs us a lot more than a 25% surcharge on memory.
 
If you buy either through the Apple store, you're nuts. (unlike the "desktops") The Macbooks are very easy to upgrade and memory are hard drives are cheap. The biggest and fastest 500GB 7200RPM drive tops out at $140 at new egg.

The third party replacements are not covered under Applecare. Something to consider, not to mention the fact the the unibodies had compatibility issues with 3rd party ram. This caused headaches for users (fixed now). lot of people are very happy to pay for OEM in the sound knowledge that they are covered by applecare.

What puzzles me, is that as soon as you bring up "upgrades" everyone acknowledges that they are a ripoff. And yet a Base MB or MBP is good value, although it has the same markup on its components as these upgrades? So if your happy to pay extra for the base machine, why suddenly is the upgrade a ripoff. Its cause you have a choice to buy cheaper and install it yourself. Your buying the best laptop on the market, with the best OS, with the best warranty, and for a couple of hundred dollars you are prepared to put in parts that are not covered by this warranty into something that costs $2500-$3000??? (this is not aimed at you Ben, but everyone on this forum)
 
A system down, and a few hours of tinkering, usually costs us a lot more than a 25% surcharge on memory.

Never has happened for us. And we don't use aftermarket on servers, the only systems that would matter for uptime.

The third party replacements are not covered under Applecare. Something to consider, not to mention the fact the the unibodies had compatibility issues with 3rd party ram. This caused headaches for users (fixed now). lot of people are very happy to pay for OEM in the sound knowledge that they are covered by applecare.

Mine's been running OWC memory since the week the unibodies came out without issue. Again, buying stuff that is tested by someone reputable and known to work, and it's generally not a problem.

What puzzles me, is that as soon as you bring up "upgrades" everyone acknowledges that they are a ripoff. And yet a Base MB or MBP is good value, although it has the same markup on its components as these upgrades? So if your happy to pay extra for the base machine, why suddenly is the upgrade a ripoff. Its cause you have a choice to buy cheaper and install it yourself. Your buying the best laptop on the market, with the best OS, with the best warranty, and for a couple of hundred dollars you are prepared to put in parts that are not covered by this warranty into something that costs $2500-$3000??? (this is not aimed at you Ben, but everyone on this forum)

Well, yeah. Just because I'm spending $2000 on a laptop doesn't mean I want to dump an extra $300 needlessly when I can swap it out in 15 minutes or less. Just because we just spent $5000 on a Mac Pro doesn't mean we want to pay a $1000 premium for RAM that it takes 5 minutes to install. All the RAM and hard drives have warranties too. It's not like we're getting it from some shady dealer on eBay.

Yes, I work on computers, so it's second nature. I realize not everyone's willing to do that, apparently.
 
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