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90% of the people posting in this thread about how horrible MS operating systems are have never even used Vista for more than a store visit.

'Just sayin'.

(posted from a PowerMac G5)
Vista deserves a beating, alright (my 8-10 hours a day with Vista for 2 years was no store visit), but for the right reasons. Not the lame old viruses/malware/instability arguments that were true for Windows 98.

The real cons of Vista:

- It is, depending on taste of course, very ugly. While better looking than XP by Fisher-Price, there's still way too much strong colors, distracting elements and inconsistent use of fonts for it to be considered professional/mature looking. They need to fire their color-blind designers and hire someone with taste.

- In many ways the background technology is way too advanced for its own good. Sure, SuperFetch (pre-loading your most commonly used apps in RAM on startup so that they load almost instantly when you start them) is a good idea on paper, but in reality it extends the total startup time by aeons, deceptively showing you the desktop like it's ready to roll, but then remaining unresponsive for a minute while it's loading gigs from the hard disk. Between SuperFetch, virtual memory, Defender, ReadyBoost (if active), Defrag and Search Indexer, the total amount of hard disk hogging can be a real pain on a mediocre laptop with a 5400 RPM drive.

- The font management is from 1955.

- The myriad of different Vista editions is the dumbest idea ever. You'd think they would have learned from the mistake of splitting XP into Home and Professional, but noooo, they had to go ahead and have SIX editions this time.

Having said that, it is Not. Frikking. Unstable. Or. Insecure. It's the most stable and most secure OS they've released and this becomes more evident the longer you use it. I have not had a fatal crash and not lost a single byte of work in 2 years with it.
 
The real cons of Vista:

- It is, depending on taste of course, very ugly. While better looking than XP by Fisher-Price, there's still way too much strong colors, distracting elements and inconsistent use of fonts for it to be considered professional/mature looking. They need to fire their color-blind designers and hire someone with taste.

- In many ways the background technology is way too advanced for its own good. Sure, SuperFetch (pre-loading your most commonly used apps in RAM on startup so that they load almost instantly when you start them) is a good idea on paper, but in reality it extends the total startup time by aeons, deceptively showing you the desktop like it's ready to roll, but then remaining unresponsive for a minute while it's loading gigs from the hard disk. Between SuperFetch, virtual memory, Defender, ReadyBoost (if active), Defrag and Search Indexer, the total amount of hard disk hogging can be a real pain on a mediocre laptop with a 5400 RPM drive.

- The font management is from 1955.

- The myriad of different Vista editions is the dumbest idea ever. You'd think they would have learned from the mistake of splitting XP into Home and Professional, but noooo, they had to go ahead and have SIX editions this time.

Having said that, it is Not. Frikking. Unstable. Or. Insecure. It's the most stable and most secure OS they've released and this becomes more evident the longer you use it. I have not had a fatal crash and not lost a single byte of work in 2 years with it.
Anuba, now don't get scared or anything, but I agree with you 100% on this one. Frankly, im a little scared :p

I had no idea about superfetch, just thought that Vista took forever to start and shutdown for no good reason, thanks for the info!
 
Vista deserves a beating, alright (my 8-10 hours a day with Vista for 2 years was no store visit), but for the right reasons. Not the lame old viruses/malware/instability arguments that were true for Windows 98.

The real cons of Vista:

- It is, depending on taste of course, very ugly. While better looking than XP by Fisher-Price, there's still way too much strong colors, distracting elements and inconsistent use of fonts for it to be considered professional/mature looking. They need to fire their color-blind designers and hire someone with taste.

- In many ways the background technology is way too advanced for its own good. Sure, SuperFetch (pre-loading your most commonly used apps in RAM on startup so that they load almost instantly when you start them) is a good idea on paper, but in reality it extends the total startup time by aeons, deceptively showing you the desktop like it's ready to roll, but then remaining unresponsive for a minute while it's loading gigs from the hard disk. Between SuperFetch, virtual memory, Defender, ReadyBoost (if active), Defrag and Search Indexer, the total amount of hard disk hogging can be a real pain on a mediocre laptop with a 5400 RPM drive.

- The font management is from 1955.

- The myriad of different Vista editions is the dumbest idea ever. You'd think they would have learned from the mistake of splitting XP into Home and Professional, but noooo, they had to go ahead and have SIX editions this time.

Having said that, it is Not. Frikking. Unstable. Or. Insecure. It's the most stable and most secure OS they've released and this becomes more evident the longer you use it. I have not had a fatal crash and not lost a single byte of work in 2 years with it.

Totally agree. Luckily 7 has all the benefits of Vista, with a cleaner interface and much higher performance.
 
Totally agree. Luckily 7 has all the benefits of Vista, with a cleaner interface and much higher performance.

Im not really digging the look of 7 at all (translucent crap everywhere is distracting to me, i prefer minimalism of apple), but the improvements will more than likely find a home in bootcamp for me.
 
Anuba, now don't get scared or anything, but I agree with you 100% on this one. Frankly, im a little scared :p

I had no idea about superfetch, just thought that Vista took forever to start and shutdown for no good reason, thanks for the info!
SuperFetch has this over-advanced monitoring system that studies your habits and draws conclusions like "OK, seems that this user always fires up Outlook every morning around 9:30, so we're gonna go ahead and preload most of Outlook in RAM so that it'll start in a split second when he clicks the icon". And it does work, to a point. Everyone's so worked up about the slowness of Vista on bootup they're not noticing that apps load 4 times faster than they used to do in XP.

But like all oversophisticated "smart" technology, it's doomed to fail. My computer habits, for example, are totally unpredictable. I'm a freelancer who works different hours every day. One week I'll use only Photoshop, the next week only Cubase and Reason, the week after that I won't be working at all, just casually surfing, gaming and listening to music. Even after 2 years of monitoring, SuperFetch can never second-guess correctly and will waste time preloading things I will not use at all.

But for an office worker who does strict and predictable 9-to-5 work in the same apps every day, I'm sure SuperFetch is killer. ;)

SuperFetch is also the reason why everyone thinks Vista is a RAM hog, because those preloaded gigs of apps give the false impression that the system itself is hogging that RAM. But it will throw out the preloaded stuff if it turns out that you start up something else, hence the RAM usage will remain pretty much constant.

In theory, MS was on to something there. They said, "Isn't it really stupid how people have these gigs of RAM now that are unused 99% of the time, and can't we do something useful with those resources at times when they're idle?". But they forgot about the psychological factor. People who paid extra to have 8 GB of RAM love to look at the RAM usage meter and see that they always have 7 GB left. When Vista stepped in and helped them get their actual money's worth instead of just leaving those 7 gigs empty like XP did, they went "Noooooo! Only 3.5 GB left, now I have to buy more RAM!. *facepalm*
 
SuperFetch has this over-advanced monitoring system that studies your habits and draws conclusions like "OK, seems that this user always fires up Outlook every morning around 9:30, so we're gonna go ahead and preload most of Outlook in RAM so that it'll start in a split second when he clicks the icon". And it does work, to a point. Everyone's so worked up about the slowness of Vista on bootup they're not noticing that apps load 4 times faster than it used to do in XP.

But like all oversophisticated "smart" technology, it's doomed to fail. My computer habits, for example, are totally unpredictable. I'm a freelancer who works different hours every day. One week I'll use only Photoshop, the next week only Cubase and Reason, the week after that I won't be working at all, just casually surfing, gaming and listening to music. Even after 2 years of monitoring, SuperFetch can never second-guess correctly and will waste time preloading things I will not use at all.

But for an office worker who does strict and predictable 9-to-5 work in the same apps every day, I'm sure SuperFetch is killer. ;)

You disabled it though, right?

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/how-to-disable-superfetch-on-windows-vista/
 
I was nodding in agreement up until that last part. ME was a parody on Windows, the epitome of everything that sucked about 3.11, 95, 98 and 98SE. It crashed twice as often as 98 and somehow managed to be less informative when it did. Microsoft ended Mainstream Support for Me in 2003, only 3 years after the launch, which by MS standards is the equivalent of burying it and running away.

Well, like I said, I used it and I never had issues with it. I never experienced the stability problems that people claim it had. I used it because of two reasons. One being the Windows 98SE license I had was being used on another computer, and XP was going to be out in less than a year so I didn't even want to bother with spending so much money on software in such a short time. Plus the computer it came on was my secondary system, an eMachines of all computers. It was as stable for me as a Win9x based OS could be.

It doesn't surprise me that MS stopped supporting it so quickly. It was available not even a year. During the time it was available systems were being sold with Windows 98SE and Windows 2000. Plus Windows XP was released about a year after Windows ME launched. Plus Windows ME wasn't preloaded on systems immediately, it was sort of a prolonged upgrade program. So it wasn't on the market very long and most people had the choice of 98SE, 2k, or ME. Plus MS was pushing XP hard by that point, letting people know it was coming and soon.

To pick apart all of your lame arguments trying to cut down my LEGITIMATE research on the XPS, but I have work to do. So I'll just say this:

So why choose the XPS and not the Studio XPS which offers far more than both the standard XPS and the MacBook for less money?

And the fact that you bring up a trialware argument means that you didn't do research.

And, again, whats with the comparing the XPS to the MacBook? Like I said, people don't buy the MacBook for the "features" or claimed (but false) build quality as Apple and the fans would have you believe, they buy it because they want a Mac and its the only one they can afford.

Of course, comparing the XPS to the MacBook fails anyway, because the Studio XPS 13 offers dual GPUs, LED screen, same processor as the MacBook Pro, double the HDD space on a faster drive, 4GB of DDR3 RAM, etc.

A realistic comparison shows that you can get systems that will beat the $2,499 and $2,799 MacBook pros for around $1,299.

My research was based on going to the Dell EPP site. I configured the machine to match, as best as possible, my MacBook. It didn't make it. Never will, as long as Vista is on it.

You know that Vista is more capable than OS X, right? And, again, why not the Studio XPS? The original XPS is being phased out.

I bought my MacBook at the Apple store, (Discounts can be had there) and bought my RAM from Newegg. It was Crucial, which is better than most OEM (unless they use Micron).

Average person can't get a discount at an Apple store, so discounts don't apply to everyone.

I work in IT. I make a very good living doing so. I support PCs, own PCs, have built many, many PCs over the years, and now own a MacBook. As someone who has stood in the same place you're standing now, looking at the situation with the same myopic view, I can unequivocally state that, of all the computers at my disposal, including multiple Windows XP, Linux, and Windows 7 computers, both physical and virtual, when I go home at night I use my Mac. Why? Because it just works better.

Good for you. I have my MacBook right here on my desk and my notebook PC running Vista right next to it. I prefer Vista because it runs better, its more stable, and the OS is all around more capable. If I want to watch a movie or play a game in my spare time, I don't have to reboot the computer and deal with Apple's bad Windows driver support. I can just simply start doing what I want to do.

As far as the statement that Vista is more stable than Leopard, PULLEEEASSE! Clean the sand out of your ears when you pull your head out of the ground. Your talking to someone who's extensively used every operating system MS has released since DOS 5. Vista is crap. You either know that, and are living in denial, or don't know it, and are too dumb to debate the topic.

Like I said, I have my PC right here running Vista. I've run Vista on 3 MacBooks and 4 different PCs in the last 2 years. Never a single problem on any of them. The only problem on the MacBook relates to Apple deliberately holding back driver support for the touchpad.

And sure, let's debate why you feel Vista is bad and Leopard is better. Let's look at Leopard for a minute. Let's say I want to connect my MacBook to my HDTV. After I deal with the mess of adapters and cables required, why can't I just disable the built-in display without sleeping the system and waking it with an external device? With my PC I can just plug in the HDMI cable and Windows does the rest for me. Why can't I set custom resolutions in Leopard without having to buy 3rd party software that essentially hacks support in? Why can't I cut and paste in Finder? Why can't I watch blu-ray discs? On that same token, why can't OS X use full bitstream decoding for video playback like Windows? Why is it that "sandboxed" apps can crash and take down the whole OS, like Safari? If IE crashes in Vista or XP nothing happens to the OS. I can go on and on you know.

Ask yourself this: If Vista is all that and a bag of chips, why is MS rushing to get Windows 7 to market less than two years after it's release, when they let XP go for 6 years?

XP was around for so long because idiots kept scrapping the work that was done on Vista and restarting it. It happened a couple of times. What we know as Vista was supposed to have been released in 2003. It wasn't intentional on Microsoft's part to let XP go that long.

By your very own logic, if Leopard is so great, why is Apple in such a rush to get Snow Leopard out when it hasn't even been 2 years yet? In fact, look at Apple's release cycle for OS X. Apple basically had an annual release cycle there for awhile. In fact, 10.0 and 10.1 were released in the same year. But we all know that DID happen because 10.0 was junk and needed that update to make it somewhat useable.

So going by your logic, Apple releasing Snow Leopard (and other revisions) so quickly is the result of the OS being bad and needing quickly replaced. At this point, Snow Leopard will be released much sooner than Leopard was in comparison to the previous release. Meaning it was about 2 and a half years between Tiger and Leopard but less than 2 years between Leopard and Snow Leopard. If I use your logic, thats because Leopard isn't up to snuff and needs replacing.

I mean, let's face it. Leopard is bloated and is missing a lot of key features it should have. Apple is calling Snow Leopard more of a speed and maintenance release. Funny how Microsoft said the same thing for Windows 7.

So why is it that MS getting Windows 7 out so fast is bad but Apple doing the same for Snow Leopard is good? Why is it that your logic only applies to MS and not Apple when the situations are very much the same?

Oh and you should remember that, aside from XP, Microsoft also has a 2-3 year OS development cycle. So them getting Windows 7 out about 2.5 years after Vista is right on schedule with the way they've been in the past and the way they were with their server OSes during XP's life, and the way they would have been with Vista if not for some people who should have (and probably did) gotten fired.

They know it. I know it. You should either know it or get a Mac, because not knowing it makes you too naive to navigate in the dangerous jungle that is the Windows OS.

I guess you missed the hundreds of posts I've made on this forum where I said I own a Mac? And the one thread where I even posted pictures?

As far as what this commercial was meant to do, it was MS taking the only road they had. "We know we can't compete on quality, so we'll talk about price."

Oh yeah? Let me know you can finally play blu-ray in OS X. Windows does everything Mac OS does and more. The same can't be said about OS X.

Oh, just an FYI: When I bought my Mac I was specifically looking at the price vs. the quality of the build.

If you bought a Mac for build quality then I can tell you from MULTIPLE experiences that you're in for a serious shock in the near future.

I have configured, worked on, repaired and built enough computers over the years to know that $600 laptops are an extreme waste of money. Write that model number down. Try to find it on HP's or Best Buy's websites in 6 months. Try to buy parts for it in a year and a half. Not generic parts, like memory and hard drives. Proprietary stuff.

HP has a 6-8 month update cycle just like Apple does. Again, similar situations between Apple and a competitor. Yet your logic states that what the competitor does is bad but Apple doing it is good. Why is that? Like I said, HP updates their product line every 6-8 months, but unlike Apple, they bump the specs of the systems as the newer parts become available. So of course you won't be able to find that system in 6 months. It will have been replaced. The same way my particular UniBody MacBook won't be available in 6 months because Apple will have cycled their products with some sort of update. Why is it bad that HP does this but good that Apple does it?

Oh and if you want parts for that HP, why not go to HP's part store? My HP just happens to be a year and a half old and guess what? I can still go there and buy all the proprietary parts I need. If I need the LCD power inverter, or the separate reinforced DC input, or the audio jack board, or whatever, its still there for me to buy.

One more thing I want to comment on..

A lot of people here and at other Apple related forums have made ridiculous comments like "Microsoft is getting desperate!" Please explain this to me. How is Microsoft getting desperate? There are more than 10 times as many people using Vista as there are Mac users TOTAL. There are hundreds of millions more using XP. Windows PCs are still outselling Macs by very very large numbers. Worldwide, Apple's marketshare is in the low single digits. Netbooks are all the rage right now. The vast majority of them run Windows, with more running Windows being added every day and the Linux based offerings disappearing. Apple doesn't even make a "netbook". So how exactly is MS getting desperate?

And another thing, why would I want to disable SuperFetch? I like having my most used apps open instantly. Vista only takes about 50 seconds to boot for me. Thats from power button press to IP address. At that point Firefox opens faster than Safari in OS X.
 
Yeah, I use Ultimate Windows Tweaker to fix the stuff I don't like, such as SuperFetch and the crazy fat window padding (4 pixels default, I set it to 1).

Im not really digging the look of 7 at all (translucent crap everywhere is distracting to me, i prefer minimalism of apple), but the improvements will more than likely find a home in bootcamp for me.
As always, the default desktop themes are hideous so the first thing you have to do in 7 is to jump in and replace the wallpaper. And it's unfortunate that they kept the translucent title bars and oversized window padding from Vista. But they have actually cleaned things up considerably. Those unsightly lime green/mint green "slime curtains" (aka Vista cyber-snot) they used on the logon screen, some window panes and the default wallpaper are gone, for one.

OSX is still much more tastefully designed of course, though I have to say the mirror effect on the Dock looks more like a case of Vista contamination than something Apple would have come up with. And the consistency across apps is approaching an all-time-low. Really looking forward to the Snow Leopard makeover...
 
Yeah, I use Ultimate Windows Tweaker to fix the stuff I don't like, such as SuperFetch and the crazy fat window padding (4 pixels default, I set it to 1).


As always, the default desktop themes are hideous so the first thing you have to do in 7 is to jump in and replace the wallpaper. And it's unfortunate that they kept the translucent title bars and oversized window padding from Vista. But they have actually cleaned things up considerably. Those unsightly lime green/mint green "slime curtains" (aka Vista cyber-snot) they used on the logon screen, some window panes and the default wallpaper are gone, for one.

OSX is still much more tastefully designed of course, though I have to say the mirror effect on the Dock looks more like a case of Vista contamination than something Apple would have come up with. And the consistency across apps is approaching an all-time-low. Really looking forward to the Snow Leopard makeover...

Yeah they're supposedly fixing a lot of that with Snow Leopard. A lot of it does look random.
 
And another thing, why would I want to disable SuperFetch? I like having my most used apps open instantly. Vista only takes about 50 seconds to boot for me. Thats from power button press to IP address. At that point Firefox opens faster than Safari in OS X.
I'd second that had we been talking about my desktop machine, but the one I'm typing on now is a Precision M65 with a 2.0 GHz dualcore, 2 GB of RAM and a 5400 RPM drive. It's 3 years old, granted, but it was spanking new and almost top-of-the-line when Vista was released.

Even with a clean install of Vista Ultimate, the startup time on this notebook is quite atrocious. Like they promised, you get to the logon screen a whole lot faster than with XP, but that's just smoke-and-mirrors because the system is nowhere NEAR done loading when the desktop appears. It keeps torturing the hard disk for nearly 3 minutes (SuperFetch being the main culprit) before it lets up a little. Hence, counting the time from pressing the power button to the appearance of the desktop is hardly a measure of the total startup time.

Thankfully, Vista is so stable and maintenance-free (performance doesn't degrade over the course of a session like previous versions did) that I never have to do a full reboot except when Windows Update requires it once every 2 months or so, and therefore I don't consider it an issue. But personally, I'd prefer the system to stop lying and not show me the desktop after booting until it's all mine to use.
 
You, on the other hand, have no idea what you are talking about. Anuba not once mentioned an OS in that entire post, just hardware. He has said several times over and over and over again (people like you just dont GET IT i suppose) that he very much enjoys OS X and all of its goodness. The problem here is that the hardware which osx is 'required' to run on (osx86 ftw) is no different than any other hardware on the market, it just has Apple's slick design and TPM chip in it. Thats it. Thats the magic that makes macs "soooooo much better than POS peecees that suxxorsz cuz they not macz!!!!"
How do you not get this?

The facts of the matter is that so-called Apple Hardware ... regardless of where or how cheaply it is made ... is the price of admission for using OS X.

The logical fallacy is in trying to ignore this fact.

True, there's no technical reason why Apple couldn't license Clones - - but the facts are that they don't do this, so it is not a viable option.

True, there's no IP reason why Apple couldn't license Clones - - but the facts are that they don't do this, so it is not a viable option.

True...whatever other excuse you want to come up with - - but the facts are that they don't do this, so it is not a viable option.

As such, what one can't really do is to try to partition the cost of the hardware from the OS ... it is a black box that is a complete System.

Now granted, having insight into hardware costs is useful in understanding how much you're paying for hardware versus software, but even this has challenges in that Apple hardware is often more than merely chips and discs, but also includes aspects of Industrial Design, such as its form factor.

Thus, it is easy to lament the absence of an 'xMac' tower, being that one is limited to choosing between an iMac and a Mac Pro ... but to be ethically consistent, let's also recognize that Porsche only has a couple of product models too, yet no one has been complaining about the absence of the 'iBoxster' or 'x911'.

IMO, the reason why people tend to complain about Apple's limited product line is because Apple has a disproportionately huge mindshare, so people are quick to assume that their manufacturing constraints are the same as Dell's and could thus pump out 30 different models.

The other related part to all of this is that Apple has a huge disadvantage in market share which impacts the amortization of OS development costs: the baseline is roughly a 20:1 ratio against Apple before streamlining/simplifications. The OS cost is a part of each computer sale, yet pundits will use simple unburdened hardware commodity costs and ignore the OS while pronouncing that Apple is "gouging", even though the ground truth is that we don't even know what percentage of the total cost is thos OS that is being utterly overlooked by this approach.

And NO, you can't simply assume the $129 retail price, since it effectively is an upgrade to an existing licence, due to the "Apple Hardware" requirement.


-hh
 
mosx will the "Longest Post Ever" award.

I have Vista Ultimate 64-bit and I don't have many problems with it, other than some device drivers weren't updated at first, but that's not MS's fault, that's on the OEMs. It boots and shuts down lightning quick for me, but I keep things lean and clean and run my machine overclocked. I like the look of Vista more than any other OS, not to say that it's perfect, but it's very slick. OSX has this weird jelly beans, metal, and cartoons look and everything's in the wrong place, and the fact that the menu bar is detached from the app is BAAARRRRFFFF. And for a company that claims they invented the mouse (they didn't) Apple's default mouse and keyboard are just garbage.

I'm not saying that I'm a huge Windows fan, but for an advanced user it definitely lets you do way more tweaking and customization than Macs will ever do, and oh yeah -- GAMES. It has them. ALL of them.
 
mosx will the "Longest Post Ever" award.

I'm not saying that I'm a huge Windows fan, but for an advanced user it definitely lets you do way more tweaking and customization than Macs will ever do, and oh yeah -- GAMES. It has them. ALL of them.

totally like these points. though no one will read this b/c this thread is uuber long.
 
mosx will the "Longest Post Ever" award.

I have Vista Ultimate 64-bit and I don't have many problems with it, other than some device drivers weren't updated at first, but that's not MS's fault, that's on the OEMs. It boots and shuts down lightning quick for me, but I keep things lean and clean and run my machine overclocked. I like the look of Vista more than any other OS, not to say that it's perfect, but it's very slick. OSX has this weird jelly beans, metal, and cartoons look and everything's in the wrong place, and the fact that the menu bar is detached from the app is BAAARRRRFFFF. And for a company that claims they invented the mouse (they didn't) Apple's default mouse and keyboard are just garbage.

I'm not saying that I'm a huge Windows fan, but for an advanced user it definitely lets you do way more tweaking and customization than Macs will ever do, and oh yeah -- GAMES. It has them. ALL of them.

"Weird jelly beans"? "everything's in the wrong place"?

This sounds like someone who has been a pc user for way to long.
what about the terminal? where do you find that?
and what about that weird start button? and what about internet explorer ALWAYS crashing?:mad::D
 
"Weird jelly beans"? "everything's in the wrong place"?

This sounds like someone who has been a pc user for way to long.
what about the terminal? where do you find that?
and what about that weird start button? and what about internet explorer ALWAYS crashing?:mad::D

The Start button is worse than the Apple menu at the top? And the "terminal" (aka command prompt) is just Start > Run > cmd, or make a shortcut to it if you actually use it that much. And I don't touch IE with a 10-foot pole. Firefox all the way. Windows lets you do stuff like make a quick launch bar on the side of the display where you can put about 40 icons for the stuff you use most. I don't use it at home, but it's super handy for work.
 
IMO, the reason why people tend to complain about Apple's limited product line is because Apple has a disproportionately huge mindshare, so people are quick to assume that their manufacturing constraints are the same as Dell's and could thus pump out 30 different models.
I don't think anyone is asking them to pump out 30 different models, but the lineup is being thinned out and streamlined as we go along.

10 years ago Apple had many more BTO options, they had tons of different screens (both CRT and LCD), some models like the original iMac came in all colors of the rainbow, the desktop machines (turqoise G3 / graphite G4) were not way up in the pro segment but halfway between that and a consumer desktop. There were clamshell laptops and black laptops and whatnot, and the eMac on top of that. This was at a time when Apple was an underdog, and didn't have the iPod/iPhone/iTunes business on the side, no software to sell, just the computers and computer peripherals to make money on. And last but not least they had CPU:s built only for them, they weren't using Intel CPU:s that are thirteen a dozen.

Today, once the white MB has been discontinued, not only will the sub-$1000 machines be history but the color options are down to those of a DeLorean: None. Aluminium across the board. Glossy screens across the board unless you buy a 17" and pay extra to have something removed. They're down to two keyboard molds (fullsize + the compact that's used on all the laptops as well as two of the tree external keyboards), a single mouse, and two monitor models. The MacBooks are no longer radically different models in terms of material and parts, they are smaller versions of the MPBs. They've been continuously stripping away the number of accessories you get in the box; they took away the iPhone Dock between gen 1 and 3G, and with an MBP you only get a magsafe adapter, for display connectivity you have to buy additional gadgets. And then there's the China bit of course ('nuff said). All this corner-cutting and streamlining can only have resulted in considerable cost savings on the hardware side.

Leaving aside my personal opinion that they are driven by a unique brand of übergreed, and just looking at it from your perspective, i.e. the "black box" idea where you take the cost of software and OS development into account, is there in your opinion less or more room for price slashing today than there was 10 years ago? Or in other words, are those who choose to buy Macs today getting less or more bang for buck than in 2005, 2002, 1999...?
 
I don't think anyone is asking them to pump out 30 different models, but the lineup is being thinned out and streamlined as we go along.
No doubt. This is the result of the pendulum swing directed to steer Apple into profitability in 1997, a period when there were WAY too many models available. Hopefully, we will see some counter balancing during the next 5 years, as market share continues to grow. At the very least, they haven't discontinued Pro models altogether, which was the consensus after they changed from Apple Computer to Apple, INC. Going exclusively consumer would have been much more tragic IMO. It is rather amusing, however, that this ad has cast the single Apple, Inc. as a viable contender against ALL other computer manufacturers. Quite flattering for Apple, in this context.
 
The Total Awesomeness of this Ad (Not really)

What a brilliant ad!

Microsoft and HP reinforce that "MACS ARE COOL". This completely undermines the "I'm a PC" ad campaign/strategy. Absolutely fantastic!
Who is writing your ads Gonzo! Who OK’d this ad Steve Ballmer!
No matter what they come out with MS is constantly reinforcing that the Windows Vista/XP platform is inferior. MS can't get a grip on their marketing strategy at all!

Any great sales person knows that if you don’t get the message across inside 30 seconds or less you are done for! Any great Ad delivers that message in that time, however this ad delivered the opposite of the desired.

Inside the 30 second threshold, 25 SECONDS in and Lauren declares "I'm just not cool enough to be a Mac person"
Lauren you got that bit so right honey, and thanks for being in a Mac ad!

What do most people do when they get to the adverts on telly, yep you got it genius they make a cup of tea. That means that the chances are that most viewers got the Apple logo and anyone coming back from switching the kettle on got Lauren declaring that she is just not cool enough to be a Mac person.

Now there is a significant chance that a lot of viewers are channel hopping or are now closed to the rest of the ad.

My 3 year old would’ve come up with a better ad!

Me, I sat through the add thinking Lauren you total knuckle head, I’m skint but I’d still have gone for the 13.3 inch Mac Book BECAUSE CHEAP IS A FALSE ECONOMY, and that doesn't change even in an economic downturn.

Steve J, for the love of god please don't kill yourself from laughing, I'm hoping youre back in time for WWDC 09!

Damn I can hear Vincent Price laughing as well. :apple:
 
People pay what they want...

I'm also amused by the fact that Microsoft points to the fact that Apple is able to generate higher revenue per device sold than PC vendors are as being a bad thing. People are willing to pay what they need to pay in order to get the goods that they want. If they're willing to pay more for a Mac than a PC, that says something about the value that both devices deliver.

Also, enhanced margins on a product like a laptop give the vendor extra budgetary headroom to invest in product and usability enhancements. I love the fact that Apple can charge a premium, then turn the money back around into investments that yield a better product (for which they can then charge a premium, etc.)

Just my opinion. (Although I'm a rabid Mac fanboy who swore in my wrath never to give Steve Ballmer another penny for his flawed technology... )
 
No doubt. This is the result of the pendulum swing directed to steer Apple into profitability in 1997, a period when there were WAY too many models available.
Yeah... I think we had a chart of all the PPC models of 1996 in the men's room at my old workplace and it was huuuge, with lots of confusing model numbers. And then there were the clones on top of that.

Hopefully, we will see some counter balancing during the next 5 years, as market share continues to grow. At the very least, they haven't discontinued Pro models altogether, which was the consensus after they changed from Apple Computer to Apple, INC. Going exclusively consumer would have been much more tragic IMO.
Agreed. Still, the narrowing of the gap between MB and MBP (alu MBs, glossy screens and fewer ports on MBPs) should be a sign of concern, it appeared to me that they weren't so much catering to professionals as to college kids who wanted to show that they had wealthier parents than the MacBook kids. I wouldn't exhale just yet.

It is rather amusing, however, that this ad has cast the single Apple, Inc. as a viable contender against ALL other computer manufacturers. Quite flattering for Apple, in this context.
Well they are the other side so I guess there's no use in beating around the bush. In my mind it was never OSX vs Windows vs Linux, or Apple vs HP vs Dell, it was always PC vs Mac. The David vs Goliath image has become a bit more complex though, now that Apple is the giant in some fields where MS is a dwarf (iPod vs. Zune). Who's the underdog?
 
i've always thought that a 17 inch screen defeats the purpose of a laptop.. i mean, portability? i see my friends lug around a brick of a laptop and i whip out my whitebook.. if apple made a 13.3 inch macbook pro, i'd jump on that so fast... 1280x800 is more than enough screen realestate for me. i don't want to waste battery power by watching 1080p stuff. but thats just personal preference. if you wanna lug around a brick, go for it ;)
 
i've always thought that a 17 inch screen defeats the purpose of a laptop.. i mean, portability? i see my friends lug around a brick of a laptop and i whip out my whitebook.. if apple made a 13.3 inch macbook pro, i'd jump on that so fast... 1280x800 is more than enough screen realestate for me. i don't want to waste battery power by watching 1080p stuff. but thats just personal preference. if you wanna lug around a brick, go for it ;)

She did, the screen size and budget were the two things she wanted - pretty sensible for an average customer I thought.

It's hard to justify differences in cpu/ram/hard disk/etc on any modern system to someone that isn't a 'power user' or enthusiast.
 
i've always thought that a 17 inch screen defeats the purpose of a laptop.. i mean, portability? i see my friends lug around a brick of a laptop and i whip out my whitebook.. if apple made a 13.3 inch macbook pro, i'd jump on that so fast... 1280x800 is more than enough screen realestate for me. i don't want to waste battery power by watching 1080p stuff. but thats just personal preference. if you wanna lug around a brick, go for it ;)
Well, a lot of people who use laptops are graphic designers, musicians and such. They want to be able to work on the road so a desktop machine doesn't always cut it. And if you've ever seen a professional music app or Photoshop, Flash, Illustrator etc, you'll know that they eat a lot of screen space. On a 1280x800 machine with all the tool panels and palettes and crap, all that's left for the actual image or animation you're working with is a tiny peephole. That's good if all you make is 32x32 pixel icons or whatever, but for everything else it's a major bummer. Same with music stuff, in my studio I have a 4960x1600 setup with 3 screens and I still have to toggle and scroll and resize and mess around with the layout, as you'd probably need 16 screens to show all the instrument panels and mixers and junk that you use in a song.

If all you do is surf the web, write mail and play music and movies you can definitely get by with a 13" screen.
 
Apple's motherboards are made by Foxconn. Guess what guys? Foxconn also makes the motherboards for Asus, Abit, Gigabyte, HP, Dell and they just put their sticker on it.

The difference here is that Asus, Dell, HP, Sony, etc dont charge you more for their name (ok, maybe sony does to some extent) and dont lock their OS to their overpriced hardware.
Macs are built with the exact same parts as any other computer, they have just been blessed by the holy Steve.


For whoever it was that told me $130 copies of osx are only upgrades to an existsing license, you are wrong. An update wouldnt allow me to install cleanly on a new system because its not updating, its a full license. OS X costs $130, their hardware costs a **** ton more for no good reason.
 
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