New Microsoft Ad Campaign Targets Mac Prices

[KnightWRX]

Oh my, forgive me KnightWRX -- please continue to educate us all in the wise and learned ways of the great Macolyte.

If you didn't quite get it yet, I'm not a Mac fanboy. I'm a Unix fanboy. That OS X just happens to be Unix is a coincidence.

And it's bloody obvious he knew where the command prompt was in Windows if he knew what a terminal was. You'd have to be brain dead not to find it under Start->Program->Accessories->Command Prompt in the first place.

 

[Anuba]

You're referring to that White MacBook that was just updated two months ago?

Let's put it this way -- with 7 different aluminium models and one residual plastic model lingering around, which one do you think will be discontinued first (and soon-ish)?

There's also an aftermarket film; try Google.

Yeah but I'm not asking for advice on how to de-gloss an MBP, we were talking about production costs.

From a business perspective of risk management in a serious economic downturn, it would appear that they've clearly "Battened Down The Hatches" to make sure that they'll survive.

That's one way to put it. Another way to put it would be "happy accident". C'mon, these machines were in the pipeline long before the economic downturn, if the bubble had popped a year later they'd still be offering this very lineup.

Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to be objective (IMO), so long as you're continuing to use such derogatory language.

Look, just so you understand where I'm coming from -

- I'm not a socialist. I embrace capitalism and its ground rules. While I never went to business school, you can run basic supply/demand principles by me without having to explain it like I was a 5-year-old.
- I'm not an Uncle Scrooge-type cheapskate.
- I wouldn't consider myself rich, but better off than the average and with a higher budget dedicated to gadgets than most.
- The prices of MBP 17" and MP are just about exactly what I would consider spending on computers -- if I'd go with Dell or some other PCs I'd just stuff them with more options until they're in the Apple price range, rather than save the potential surplus.
- The time and energy I've spent discussing Mac prices by now is starting to get a little too disproportionate to my actual, err, "fascination" for the topic -- I'm not that bothered.

Having said that, I've been racking my brain trying to formulate why I, and obviously quite a few others, feel that their business model sticks out like an sore thumb among the business models of other premium brands... but I could babble on all day without putting my finger on it. There's this off-putting audacity to the whole thing, like they're not even trying to make it look like a fair deal, just stretching the limit of what they can get away with... like they were in a meeting right now, contemplating ways of making you pay extra for the packaging or else you'll get the computer shipped with the waybill pasted directly on the enclosure.

 

[yossim]

Oh my, forgive me KnightWRX -- please continue to educate us all in the wise and learned ways of the great Macolyte. We eagerly await all the wondrous knowledge that can only come from one so enlightened. Please forgive any transgression I may have made against thee. I humbly accept any penance you deem appropriate. Though it may have appeared that way, I was not trying to equate the obviously far superior Terminal App to the lowly Windows shell.

I know where to find the command prompt. I was pointing out that it was inferior. It's just one of many things that are inferior.

 

[whitefang]

It's just one of many things that are inferior.

Sort of like how iWorks is inferior to Office 07.
Sort of like all mail servers are inferior to Exchange.
Sort of like how objective-c is inferior to .NET.
Sort of like how XCode is inferior to Visual Studio 2008.

 

[Double J]

If you didn't quite get it yet, I'm not a Mac fanboy. I'm a Unix fanboy. That OS X just happens to be Unix is a coincidence.

And it's bloody obvious he knew where the command prompt was in Windows if he knew what a terminal was. You'd have to be brain dead not to find it under Start->Program->Accessories->Command Prompt in the first place.

WOW. G'night.

 

[bruinsrme]

The Start button is worse than the Apple menu at the top? And the "terminal" (aka command prompt) is just Start > Run > cmd, or make a shortcut to it if you actually use it that much. And I don't touch IE with a 10-foot pole. Firefox all the way. Windows lets you do stuff like make a quick launch bar on the side of the display where you can put about 40 icons for the stuff you use most. I don't use it at home, but it's super handy for work.

As silly as the START button windows users know what it does for them.
They could have called it anything and we, including myslef, would be scratching heads saying why in the world did they name it xxxxx.

quicklaunnch at work is very useful.
At home it has desktop, outlook, firefox, safari and ie

 

[AidenShaw]

Basically, stupid exemple, but if you want to display the date repeatedly as it increments, in any Unix bourne shell you just type something like :

$ while [ true ]; do date; sleep 1; done

In NT cmd.exe, that's

for /l %i in (0,0,1) do (echo %time% & sleep 1)​

Sure Windows Scripting Host fixes a few of these, but the fact that it is unintegrated into the actual shell makes it unsuable for simple day to day tasks of administrating a system.

I'm sure that legions of Windows administrators would be surprised by this claim.

Vista doesn't fix this.

Try PowerShell....

______________________


Anyway, command shell comparisons don't have anything to do with the discussion of Microsoft's brilliant new ads.

Lauren didn't ask for a system with an integrated mid-level scripting shell built into a terminal emulator....

 

[NT1440]

Sort of like how objective-c is inferior to .NET.
.

Can you elaborate on that?

 

[Anuba]

I know where to find the command prompt. I was pointing out that it was inferior. It's just one of many things that are inferior.

Yeah, Terminal is probably more of a powertool, the command prompt is a DOS emulation and the purpose is rather different.

To be fair, though, it feels a bit backwards that you have to go to Terminal and enter code snippets to perform tweaks like stopping the machine from creating .DS_Store files all over a network share, or replace the mirror Dock with the translucent black one. You'd never have to stoop to using the DOS prompt for stuff like that. It taints the user friendliness image of Macs a little because there's no way in hell a n00b will feel comfortable in Terminal.

 

[montom]

Mac vs PC... the answer is simple:

The more you use something, the better quality it should be. Therefore you should get the best quality you can afford, otherwise operating and maintenance costs (including time spent dealing with those) make the initially cheaper product more expensive in the long run.

Therefore if you don't use your computer much, get a cheaper Windows PC or even a net-book. If your life depends on your computer, get a Mac, even if only a refurbished one because durability, design, stability, and resale value make it better in the long run.

If you can't afford a Mac and must settle for a Windows PC, then you'll still pay in the long run with additional time spent keeping Windows running - defragging, startup, shutdown, running spyware scanners, fixing the registry, troubleshooting hardware and software installs, etc...

For example, in 4 years I never had to reinstall OS X, and yet my PowerBook runs as fast as it always has. Never had to run a virus scan. Never had to defrag. With Windows PCs you do the wake/sleep thing for four days in a row and the system slows down considerably due to memory leaks. I can go months without restarting the computer, just open the lid to wake, close it to sleep, and it always works. See, timesavers, energy savers, convenience, stability.

 

[B2k1977]

ouch, I think an oem copy might have been a better idea

Retail from a retail shop? Take it back! Could save a few more quid with the win7 beta, it's 'free' until august.

Well, as a rule, I don't run beta software on primetime devices. I have the windows 7 beta on a vm and it's sweet, I"ll be dumping my xp/vista setup for windows 7 upon release, but yes, I did buy an off the shelf version of vista, I wanted the retail box b/c it comes with 32 and 64 bit, whereas with the oem version you have to pick which architechure(sp?) you want.

 

[KnightWRX]

In NT cmd.exe, that's

for /l %i in (0,0,1) do (echo %time% & sleep 1)​

I'll admit you got me on the looping statements, though the syntax seems rather... unintuitive.

However, what about conditionnal executions and return codes like my second example ? I don't really see an easy and intuitive way to do it with if.

I'm sure that legions of Windows administrators would be surprised by this claim.

I can ask them tomorrow, they sit about 3 cubicles down the hall from me. Of course, me just asking about cmd and WSH integration will probably throw a bigger question mark in their face than the affirmation itself, if they even understand it.

You didn't understand it yourself. My job is manipulating day in and out command lines. I don't want to have to create a script each time, sometimes I just bang out one liners right there for my shell to execute to do things I need to do. Sometimes they're pretty simple command invocations, sometimes they're complex conditionnal or looping statements, sometimes they're simply rather long chains of piped together commands.

I don't always want or need to edit a script together and then run it in an external interpreter. That's the beauty of the Unix command line.

And no it probably has nothing to do with Lauren's needs, but guess what, they have to do with mine and probably yossim's who asked about the terminal in the first place. Of course, if all the ad is showing is what Lauren needs, then it's not a very good ad at all, since it's rare people buy computers that satisfy the needs of others.

 

[AidenShaw]

I'll admit you got me on the looping statements, though the syntax seems rather... unintuitive.

However, what about conditionnal executions and return codes like my second example ? I don't really see an easy and intuitive way to do it with if.

It's easy to do in multiple lines (e.g. in a script file). Trying to do it in a single line (with CMD, rather than one of the "proper" scripting languages) is the bugaboo - since you are conditionally directing the pipe. CMD can do it with temp files, though.

So, this may be close (I don't bash much, so I may not understand your example).

findstr /v /b /c:"#" config.file > t.tmp & if %errorlevel% == 0 (success commands separated by ampersands) else (failure commands) & if exist t.tmp del t.tmp​

The parentheses are part of the syntax - in the NT shell anywhere you have a command instead of "command" you can do "(command1 & command2 & command3...)". The open and close parens do not need to be on the same line, and the ampersand isn't needed if the commands are on separate lines.

if %foo% == %bar% (command1 & command2 & command3)​

is the same as

if %foo% == %bar% (

command1
command2
command3 )​

(the blank line before command1 comes from the message board, it doesn't like nested indents without spaces.)

I can ask them tomorrow, they sit about 3 cubicles down the hall from me. Of course, me just asking about cmd and WSH integration will probably throw a bigger question mark in their face than the affirmation itself, if they even understand it.

In big Windows environments, often senior admins will make the scripts, and the hordes of worker admins will execute them. WSH and PowerShell are great for this.

Small Unix shops, with just a couple of people, are often as you describe.

My job is manipulating day in and out command lines. I don't want to have to create a script each time, sometimes I just bang out one liners right there for my shell to execute to do things I need to do....

I don't always want or need to edit a script together and then run it in an external interpreter.

I once worked with an engineer who would never "bang" out a command line.

He would always create a script file, edit it, review it, think about it. Once he was satisfied, he'd write it out and execute it.

His logic - "do you know what would happen if one character is wrong in a 'dd' or 'fdisk' command?" Any mistake could cost a ton of money - he didn't "bang" out the one-liners.

 

[Anuba]

Mac vs PC... the answer is simple:

The more you use something, the better quality it should be. Therefore you should get the best quality you can afford, otherwise operating and maintenance costs (including time spent dealing with those) make the initially cheaper product more expensive in the long run.

Therefore if you don't use your computer much, get a cheaper Windows PC or even a net-book. If your life depends on your computer, get a Mac, even if only a refurbished one because durability, design, stability, and resale value make it better in the long run.

If you can't afford a Mac and must settle for a Windows PC, then you'll still pay in the long run with additional time spent keeping Windows running - defragging, startup, shutdown, running spyware scanners, fixing the registry, troubleshooting hardware and software installs, etc...

For example, in 4 years I never had to reinstall OS X, and yet my PowerBook runs as fast as it always has. Never had to run a virus scan. Never had to defrag. With Windows PCs you do the wake/sleep thing for four days in a row and the system slows down considerably due to memory leaks. I can go months without restarting the computer, just open the lid to wake, close it to sleep, and it always works. See, timesavers, energy savers, convenience, stability.

You make a compelling argument but I'd like to challenge it on a couple of points.

If your life really depends on your computer and you need it running 24/7 or you're screwed, you have to consider the possibility of a hardware failure and the impact thereof. In those cases it's a lifesaver to have NBD on-site support because then you can just call a number and some bloke will stop by and fix your machine the next day. Some PC brands offer that service, others don't (Dell will do it, and probably HP, but not Sony, ASUS, Acer etc). Apple won't do it though, so you could be without your machine for X or XX number of days depending on where you live. If you're five days from a deadline, do you want your computer back online tomorrow, or in six days?

Also, I think you're exaggerating the 'chore' of owning a PC. Defrag and spyware scanning is automatic, scheduled and built into Windows; cleaning the registry takes about a minute with CCleaner (freeware) which puts it at a total of about 4 minutes per year. I don't know what you mean by startup and shutdown, Windows Update doesn't require more reboots than Apple's Software Update does and the rest of the time you can just put the machine on standby/sleep/hibernation. That's what I do and I'm not noticing any degraded performance or memory leaks (the last reboot was 9 days ago, the last one before that was sometime in February).

I think the main reasons to go with a Mac are...

- if the OS X desktop paradigm is more in tune with your thinking and your workflow than the Windows one is
- if you're a sucker for stellar industrial design
- if you're a musician who needs low-latency audio without a lot of tweaking to get it right
- if you'll be working in an environment where Mac dominates and you don't want to be "that PC guy" (you can probably handle the friendly banter, but more importantly there can be minor cross-platform incompatibility issues with fonts, some file types etc that can cause some unwanted friction)
- if you need software that doesn't exist for Windows (Logic, Final Cut etc)
- if you are an absolute computer beginner (not saying Mac is for n00bs but there's less chance of screwing up the system, and the learning curve may be somewhat in Mac's favor)

As for this whole virus/stability/maintenance argument... that's a little anachronistic and I don't buy it, sorry. Macs need some maintenance too (Onyx, Disk Utility), they do crash sometimes, and viruses on modern Windows PCs are something you have to actively force onto the system, they don't drive in through open doors anymore.

 

[Harmush]

i don't think macs of over priced compared to PC. you get maybe a year out a dell or hp or something, and then its so slow and clogged up with pointless stuff you have to get a new one or spend another year cleaning it off. and 5-6 out of a mac, they just stay "fresh" for longer. you can turn a mac on 3 years down the line and know it will be as fast as the day you got it. no constant maintenance needed. and using windows on a virtual machine is embarrassingly (for PC companies) faster than an actual PC half the time.

Best of both worlds!

 

[polaris20]

Can you elaborate on that?

No, he can't. He makes claims he knows nothing about, then runs away for a few hours, then comes back and says something else he knows nothing about.

I'm still waiting on his response to Linux use, and why given that I own both a Thinkpad workstation laptop and a MacBook Pro I don't know which is stiffer.

The fact that he points out the spilling liquid feature as a main selling point is hysterical.

Yeah, that's exactly why we bought 15 of them. It wasn't the FX570m Quadros, 4GB RAM, 2.8ghz C2D or hi res screens, it was the ability to dump Evian on it and keep going!

Whitefang, which distribution did you try of Linux? What metrics did you use to decide it was slow?

Please don't tell me it was boot time. Unlike Windows and OS X, it doesn't let you log in until it's actually done booting.

 

[NoSmokingBandit]

...spend another year cleaning it off.

If it takes you a year to clean out a computer you are either:

a) an idiot who doesnt know how to clean a windows install at all

b) an idiot who installs every single exe he comes across

c) an idiot who is exaggerating because he cant prove his points with facts.

 

[3282868]

Oh my, forgive me KnightWRX -- please continue to educate us all in the wise and learned ways of the great Macolyte. We eagerly await all the wondrous knowledge that can only come from one so enlightened. Please forgive any transgression I may have made against thee. I humbly accept any penance you deem appropriate. Though it may have appeared that way, I was not trying to equate the obviously far superior Terminal App to the lowly Windows shell.

I JUST FRIGGING DIDN'T THINK HE KNEW WHERE THE FRIGGING COMMAND PROMPT WAS!!!!

You need to settle down. Seriously.

 

[zeromeus]

Stupid Mac Keyboard!

So I've been using my iMac for about 3 months now... the one thing that really really really bugs me is the COMMAND key. I have to press COMMAND + C to copy... meaning I'd have to MOVE my hand away from the usual position of my hand being on the eight home keys ASDF and JKL;. It's very frustrating to use shortcuts using buttons that are so out of reach. Why don't they just make it easier for us by using the control key instead of the command key? That's why the shift key is on both sides of the keyboard; so you can use both pinkies when you need to. Why can't I just press command using one hand and c using the other hand? Because the command key is in such a weird spot to even use it with my other hand. Anyways... how counter intuitive is that???

 

[3282868]

Conficker.c

Conficker.c threat tomorrow - April's Fool Day. Millions on alert:

Conficker.c is a worm, a malicious program thought to have already infected between 5 million and 10 million computers.

Conficker.c imbeds itself deep in the computer where it is difficult to track. The program, for instance, stops Windows from conducting automatic updates that could prevent it from causing damage.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/31/april.fools.computer.virus/index.html

This worm, which affects Windows computers, has no effect on Mac OS X; at least not yet. Intego’s Virus Monitoring Center is un full alert in case a Mac OS X variant of this worm should appear, but, so far, Mac users are in the clear. However, Mac users who run Windows on their Macs are at the same risk as those running Windows on PCs.

http://www.intego.com/news/ism0903.asp

Symantec's site:

How does the worm infect a computer?
The Downadup worm tries to take advantage of a problem with Windows (a vulnerability) called MS08-067 to quietly install itself. Users who automatically receive updates from Microsoft are already protected from this. The worm also tries to spread by copying itself into shared folders on networks and by infecting USB devices such as memory sticks.

http://www.symantec.com/norton/theme.jsp?themeid=conficker_worm&inid=us_ghp_link_conficker_worm

Yeah, I know, OS X is vulnerable to viruses and worms as well, however so far so good. Joke or not, I'll be sleeping well tonight.

 

[Anuba]

So I've been using my iMac for about 3 months now... the one thing that really really really bugs me is the COMMAND key. I have to press COMMAND + C to copy... meaning I'd have to MOVE my hand away from the usual position of my hand being on the eight home keys ASDF and JKL;. It's very frustrating to use shortcuts using buttons that are so out of reach. Why don't they just make it easier for us by using the control key instead of the command key? That's why the shift key is on both sides of the keyboard; so you can use both pinkies when you need to. Why can't I just press command using one hand and c using the other hand? Because the command key is in such a weird spot to even use it with my other hand. Anyways... how counter intuitive is that???

Well, be happy you at least have a normal Control key. On the smaller keyboard (wireless) they've put a Function key in the bottom left corner where Ctrl used to be, and Ctrl is to the right of it, and very small. No muscle memory on the planet will look for the Ctrl key there. So I'd actually prefer they stick with the Command key for copy/cut/paste, at least it's the same size you expect a Ctrl key to be and not in a completely retarded location.

As to why they use the Cmd key instead of Ctrl, this is ancient Mac tradition, they've always used a different key combo. In this case you can't really fault Apple because they were first, they introduced the cut/copy/paste key combo with their Lisa in 1981, 4 years before Windows even existed. So it's really Windows that has it "wrong".

Your brain will adjust, though. Give it some more time and it will be second nature to use Cmd in OS X and Ctrl in Windows without mixing them up.

 

[yossim]

So I've been using my iMac for about 3 months now... the one thing that really really really bugs me is the COMMAND key. I have to press COMMAND + C to copy... meaning I'd have to MOVE my hand away from the usual position of my hand being on the eight home keys ASDF and JKL;. It's very frustrating to use shortcuts using buttons that are so out of reach. Why don't they just make it easier for us by using the control key instead of the command key? That's why the shift key is on both sides of the keyboard; so you can use both pinkies when you need to. Why can't I just press command using one hand and c using the other hand? Because the command key is in such a weird spot to even use it with my other hand. Anyways... how counter intuitive is that???

This depends on what you're used to. whether it be the command key or the control key.

 

[NT1440]

No, he can't. He makes claims he knows nothing about, then runs away for a few hours, then comes back and says something else he knows nothing about.

I'm still waiting on his response to Linux use, and why given that I own both a Thinkpad workstation laptop and a MacBook Pro I don't know which is stiffer.

The fact that he points out the spilling liquid feature as a main selling point is hysterical.

Yeah, that's exactly why we bought 15 of them. It wasn't the FX570m Quadros, 4GB RAM, 2.8ghz C2D or hi res screens, it was the ability to dump Evian on it and keep going!

Whitefang, which distribution did you try of Linux? What metrics did you use to decide it was slow?

Please don't tell me it was boot time. Unlike Windows and OS X, it doesn't let you log in until it's actually done booting.

Well to be honest, it was a loaded question on my end, of course he couldnt. One language cannot be superior to another when they arent direct competitors. They do different things, therefore aren't directly comparable.

 

[Pooshka]

I didn't see this posted yet (OK, didn't look that hard either). It's funny, so worth a repost anyway, at least IMHO. It's from Joy of Tech http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/index.html

LMFAO

The best Microsoft ad ever!!!!!!

 

[AidenShaw]

LMFAO

The best Microsoft ad ever!!!!!!

The "laptop hunters" ad is about the best Microsoft ad yet, I agree.

But the "dumpster lunch" is one of the worst Joy of Tech cartoons ever. Most them are stupid (at least since it changed to "Joy of Apple Tech" from real humour about technology), but this one is shameful.

The arguments here that "Lauren wasted her money on a $700 HP, she should have bought the $2800 17" MacBookPro" are embarrassing when you think of the families struggling to put food on the table, gas in the car, and heat their homes.

So many spoiled rich kids here, so little realization of how hard life is for so many people these days.

I guess that I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person either.... and proud of it.