New PowerMac 1.8GHz Released

[Xtremehkr]

Supply, Demand, Equilibrium.

My general impression was that people wanted a headless iMac for under a thousand dollars. But it would need to be heavily upgradeable, with PCI slots, an extra drive bay, plenty of DIMM slots, and the ability to replace the video card. I'm not sure how that would still be considered an "iMac". Maybe they think the "i" just means cheaper than the PowerMac line.

There was much less demand for something like this, because of that, the few that are supplied are going to cost more. If this initial model takes off, the next one will be much better. I would say that this is a bit of a risk though.

Economies of Scale

I think I've said it a few times now, gamers are a niche market, especially so for Mac gamers. I hope that non gamers pick up a few of these so that the sales are good enough to invest more in them. A company as small as Apple doesn't try to extort people like a M$ monopoly does, at least, not anymore. They squandered their first opportunity to gain real market share by charging ridiculous amounts of money.

But for Apple, I would say that reacting to consumer demands like this is a big step. If it works, they will more than likely put more effort into it.

 

[scan300]

I hope that non gamers pick up a few of these so that the sales are good enough to invest more in them..

I think the non-gaming market will be the bigger market share for this machine.

They will service the creative market nicely who have been slow to uptake OSX, who already have their preferred monitors, but need cheap, easily serviceable, powermacs to mix with higher end power macs. They're perfect for the music industry who need to add custom DSP cards, but struggle to outlay for the high end powermacs. Newspapaer and design studios who need variability in pricing to replace their existing powermac line. Architecture, manufacturing etc.

This machine will also make an excellent low cost server.

 

[~Shard~]

hmmm looks like a good alternative for someone who doesnt want a 1.6 but something more than an imac

I agree - although it may not be for everyone, it definitely fills a void if nothing else. Apple hasn't made too many bad calls before (not saying there haven't been any of course!), so I'm thinking this is going to sell quite well for them. Of course, maybe it'll turn into a Newton, Cube, or 1.6 GHz PowerMac too...

 

[~Shard~]

Ah, good. Those higher limits can be quite handy now...

It was quite handy, as the minimum stay for that limit was 7 days, and I left on my 7th day. I also picked up a digital camera in NY (Canon PowerShot S410 - SWEET camera, highly recommend it) and had my girlfriend declare it, so we didn't have to do anything at Customs - worked out quite well!

 

[MacinDoc]

If Apple Canada used the current exchange rate (which, even that, varies depending on WHO you go to), they would have to change their prices daily, at least. Perhaps there is more to the equation than a simple currency conversion.

My point was that although the 17" iMac and the new Power Mac are the same price at U.S. retailers, the new Power Mac is more expensive than the iMac in Canada, although the Canadian dollar has been rising steadily. It should have been priced the same as or less than the 17" iMac.

 

[dejo]

My point was that although the 17" iMac and the new Power Mac are the same price at U.S. retailers, the new Power Mac is more expensive than the iMac in Canada, although the Canadian dollar has been rising steadily. It should have been priced the same as or less than the 17" iMac.

True. That's why I suspect there is something else behind their pricing. It's obviously not just a currency conversion formula. Maybe you should contact Apple Canada and ask them "WTF?"

 

[dejo]

If they did a headless G4 low spec emac (1Ghz, 256 ram, 32 vid, 40 gig hdd - options for up to a gig or even 768, 64 vid, 160 gig hdd, BT and Wifi, ethernet, modem options) at above cost neutral it would allow them to switch allot of home users who dont want a CRT and can't afford anything else. An old argument I know.

But, unfortunately, even in Apple did that, there would be enough people in here griping that they "crippled" it with a G4 CPU instead of a G5. Or only a 1GHz CPU instead of 2. Or probably the front-side-bus was too slow.

 

[Dr. No]

How well does the iMac G5 with the 600 MHz bus perform??

 

[Mencius]

still too many $$

This is a move in the right direction. But a little while ago I put together this PC machine for gaming (while retaining a G4 imac for work):

AMD Athlon 64 3400+ (2.4Ghz)
1024MB PC3200
1x80GB SATA 1x160GB SATA 7200RPM
16x DL DVD Burner
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
6xPCI slots Digital Audio in/out Gigabit Ethernet
54Mb/s Wireless

Cost me: AUD $1,600

That G5 is AUD $1,000 more before upgrades. With the RAM, Vid Card etc. that I would want it costs AUD $4,352 =/ difference is still pretty big and arguably the PC is faster in some areas. I'd pay more just for OS X but I can't afford that much more. Just thought I'd contribute a real example.

 

[Devie]

This is a move in the right direction. But a little while ago I put together this PC machine for gaming (while retaining a G4 imac for work):

AMD Athlon 64 3400+ (2.4Ghz)
1024MB PC3200
1x80GB SATA 1x160GB SATA 7200RPM
16x DL DVD Burner
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
6xPCI slots Digital Audio in/out Gigabit Ethernet
54Mb/s Wireless

Cost me: AUD $1,600

That G5 is AUD $1,000 more before upgrades. With the RAM, Vid Card etc. that I would want it costs AUD $4,352 =/ difference is still pretty big and arguably the PC is faster in some areas. I'd pay more just for OS X but I can't afford that much more. Just thought I'd contribute a real example.

There have been many times where I look at the price for me to build a PC compared to a Mac where I just think "go for it". I have almost built a PC about five times, but each time I just look at the Mac's, and I just cant look away...
I have finally convinced myself that the Mac is the way to go. I am a gamer, I love games, I am always playing them (a bit to much ), then I just had a think about it, I play my Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube a hell of a lot more than my PC, the only PC games I play are Blizzard titles and UT. So then was the next decision- which mac was right for me? Before, I was reluctently going for the iMac G5 but wasnt to sure, until now thanks to this new G5 .

I also was about to buy a Powerbook, then build a PC for my games... then I realised I don't need a laptop... I'd be to stupid to bring a $4,000.00 AUD laptop to school.

 

[gekko513]

Yes, when you compare prices with PCs that you put together yourself, then all Macs look expensive, and especially on hardware sites, those are the arguments that you'll get why Macs are expensive.

On the other hand, if you compare prices on Dell PCs with PCs that you put together yourself, you'll find that the Dell PCs also come out looking very expensive.

When you buy a Dell or an Apple computer, you also pay for having it shipped ready to go, with components that are sure to match, with software installed, with warranty and with less hassle.

It's sort of a shame that it's not possible to build your own Mac in the same way, but as I hear, that was possible once, but was stopped by Apple for some reason that I'm not sure of. I didn't really consider Apple/Mac an option in those days

 

[Mencius]

I play my Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube a hell of a lot more than my PC, the only PC games I play are Blizzard titles and UT.

Yeah I don't use consoles or I may have reached the same decision. Heh I used to only play those games too... now I realise there's a whole different world. Farcry and Dawn of War are the pick of the moment.

Anyway I suppose the conclusion you could draw from my post is that I don't think this is really a gaming machine; I mean that in the sense that it won't convert many gamers to OS X. It will never able to compete with the PC options. Furthermore, I think a lot of gamers spend enough time with computers that building one isn't a serious challenge to them.

However Apple probably know this, as has been said many times mac gamers are a real niche market, and it has also been mentioned above that this G5 appeals to a market beyond gamers. In many ways Apple markets to Apple people, I can't see someone who wasn't buying a mac already buying this as a gaming machine.... there would have to be wider reasons.

 

[CTerry]

It seems a bit too expensive to me as well for what you get. Would be fine if it were $1200-1300, methinks.

But, in Canada it's even worse - $2099cdn

According to xe.com:
1,499.00 USD United States Dollars = 1,890.48 CAD

So we would have to pay an extra $200cdn+ because....

...I'm not sure why.

Stuff like this pisses me off.

Hazarding a guess Id probably say cos of sales tax. The reason Macs (and computers and everything in general) is more expensive in the UK than elsewhere is we have a stonking 17.5% sales tax. If Canadas taxation is similar that'd probably explain it.

 

[Eaon]

Hazarding a guess Id probably say cos of sales tax. The reason Macs (and computers and everything in general) is more expensive in the UK than elsewhere is we have a stonking 17.5% sales tax. If Canadas taxation is similar that'd probably explain it.

Doesn't work that way, actually. Canada doesn't have a VAT built in to the price. We have the national GST (Goods and Services Tax) which is 7%, and every province but Alberta has a provincial sales tax which varies in rate depending on the province. Together they can total as much as 18% in some places (I think - I live in Alberta, so I don't care about PST ), but none of that is included in the $2099 price listed on Apple's page. All prices are "+ tax".

 

[MacinDoc]

Doesn't work that way, actually. Canada doesn't have a VAT built in to the price. We have the national GST (Goods and Services Tax) which is 7%, and every province but Alberta has a provincial sales tax which varies in rate depending on the province. Together they can total as much as 18% in some places (I think - I live in Alberta, so I don't care about PST ), but none of that is included in the $2099 price listed on Apple's page. All prices are "+ tax".

Further to that, the GST, which is added to the list price at the time of purchase, replaced a manufacturing tax that was previously hidden in the price of goods. Did I read somewhere that the U.S. still does have a hidden manufacturing tax? It seems that in countries other than the U.S., Apple is making a much higher margin on each computer. It was interesting to see the comparison that was posted earlier on this thread between different models and different countries. I'm not surprised that in Europe, it's even worse than in Canada, because I've previously read many complaints about European prices. I think Apple has to have more reasonable international prices if it wants to improve its worldwide market share. Isn't its worldwide market share even less than its U.S. market share? The unreasonable prices of Apple products outside of the U.S. is probably a large contributor to that.

 

[Mac Dummy]

$200-300 US less would have resulted in a great value. But $1499 is too expensive for what you get IMO.

Another thought, apparently, there seems to be no shortage on 1.8 GHz cpus anymore, which is a good sign.

Maybe this means that 1.8Ghz is where the PowerBook G5's will start at.
I'm thinking 12" G5 Pbook.

 

[takao]

Isn't its worldwide market share even less than its U.S. market share? The unreasonable prices of Apple products outside of the U.S. is probably a large contributor to that.

yes it is ..(except switzerland perhaps..but there the mercedes marketshare is bigger as well )

example
imac G5 base model 1299$ in the US
here 1470$ with exchange rate in mind

this powermac 1764.85 $
with exchange rate and without tax
perhaps i update my excel files where i calculated the price differences for all apple products on average....

between 8% and 30% higher prices last time i checked on average i think it was 18%
i have time this weekend i jsut put updating the file on my to-do list i can send the stats to you in a prvt msg.

 

[Sun Baked]

The Developer Note is out on this, and...

1. It is a headless iMac

2. It is the machine from the linked Service Manual page we saw awhile ago.

3. And there are a couple new design elements.

 

[BanditBill]

1.8GHz iMac vs. 1.8GHz PowerMac(600 MHz Bus)

How well do you think these machines will perform against each other with equal amounts of RAM, same video chipset etc?

Wouldn't the iMac's onboard video chip perform worse than a dedicated card with it's own processor?

What is with the optical audio out on the iMac. I understand the Toslink connector on the PowerMac. Are they the same thing but a different connector? Does the PowerMac process sound differently?

I'm inclined to purchase the PowerMac as I already own a nice 17" CRT and the prices of a 20"+ replacement LCD with higher specs than the built in iMac monitor are continually dropping. I will also be hooking up my home stereo via optical (it only has Toslink connectors). The dual layer DVD burners are out and can be put into a PowerMac at a very low price.

 

[MegaSignal]

Another real-world example

. . .a little while ago I put together this PC machine for gaming (while retaining a G4 imac for work):

AMD Athlon 64 3400+ (2.4Ghz)
1024MB PC3200
1x80GB SATA 1x160GB SATA 7200RPM
16x DL DVD Burner
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
6xPCI slots Digital Audio in/out Gigabit Ethernet
54Mb/s Wireless

Cost me: AUD $1,600

That G5 is AUD $1,000 more before upgrades. With the RAM, Vid Card etc. that I would want it costs AUD $4,352 =/ difference is still pretty big and arguably the PC is faster in some areas. I'd pay more just for OS X but I can't afford that much more. Just thought I'd contribute a real example.

I just threw a whole lot of dollars and GHz at a Dell box and guess what - now more than ever I'm committed to Apple and their products. (Service Pack 2 almost made me think that there was a glimmer of hope for this PC...) After all was said and done, this Dell 4600 still cannot come close to the performance of my "old" dual 1.25 G4 - even with a 3.4GHz Northwood. But: this is only in terms of video editing, encoding, and audio CD ripping. As far as browsing the internet and writing the occasional letter, it's still OK for that. In terms of gaming: this is where I do not know much about computers, and will rely upon the comment from others as I do not game at all...

Attempting to stay on topic, and in conclusion: Literally, the money I spent on this Dell 4600 upgrade ALONE is within 10% of the cost of a NEW SP 1.8! (I've learned my lesson well!) Again, my hat's off to Apple marketing!

 

[Mencius]

I just threw a whole lot of dollars and GHz at a Dell box and guess what - now more than ever I'm committed to Apple and their products. (Service Pack 2 almost made me think that there was a glimmer of hope for this PC...) After all was said and done, this Dell 4600 still cannot come close to the performance of my "old" dual 1.25 G4 - even with a 3.4GHz Northwood. But: this is only in terms of video editing, encoding, and audio CD ripping. As far as browsing the internet and writing the occasional letter, it's still OK for that. In terms of gaming: this is where I do not know much about computers, and will rely upon the comment from others as I do not game at all...

Attempting to stay on topic, and in conclusion: Literally, the money I spent on this Dell 4600 upgrade ALONE is within 10% of the cost of a NEW SP 1.8! (I've learned my lesson well!) Again, my hat's off to Apple marketing!

Fair enough. However this has not been my experience in the matter. Personally I wouldn't consider Dell an option.

My point of comparison to my "old mac" is, as I mentioned, the G4 imac. It's an 800mhz superdrive. Naturally I performed a few tests to see performance differences. Encoding a two hour length of video to mpeg4 takes 30mins on the PC I built. It took 12-18 hours on my old G4. Aiff to AAC encoding runs at 26.0x, CD ripping also 26x on the PC. That's compared to 6.0x-6.5x and 6.5x-7.0x on the G4. I have never had any experience with the dual 1.25 though. In terms of expenditure besides a few more $6 case fans for the Australian summer I'm not spending any more money on this for one or two years.

Admittedly windows causes me much pain, grief and trouble. It is miles worse than OS X. But these problems have never cost me anything.... If I run into trouble I can most always solve it myself (eventually) or with help from friends.

 

[DaLazernet]

Alright, I've been following macrumors for so long - it was about time to register and have my first post! (Especially since I have my own two cents on this topic).

Let me paint a quick picture for you (and I'm sure I'm probably not unique in this scenario). I used to be a big apple fan (performa 475, pm 6100). Somewhere after OS 8, I looked towards the windows world and switched to PCs. Having unix experience and hearing of apple's OS X, I kept a keen eye open towards apple. Then it happened...they changed things which started drawing my attention back to them. First the new imacs (the previous model), then their gorgeous laptops, etc.

So here I am in the PC world, used to upgradability (except for our laptops of course), getting back into the apple world. The day they announced the new Powerbook 1.33Ghz 12", I custom ordered mine and decked it out (within reason). This was my taste into apple and I was loving it! I'd love to replace my tower with an apple product, but alas, I have more than one HD (and like working in that fashion), three 15" sony flat panels (digital input on all of them), etc. So the eMac and iMac are both out because they are simply not enough for what I want. This only left the pricey and seemingly overkill-for-my-purposes PowerMac G5 dual processor towers. (I'm currently a student, aspiring to become a biology teacher, who also has a small business designing web sites and graphics/logos).

Enter the new single 1.8 powermac -- looks mighty tempting, and oooh with the student discount! I'd need at least one of the PCI slots for an additional video card so I can keep my 3 monitors, and everything seems like just what I'd need. I'm sure I'm not alone in having this perspective, so I'm sure these units will sell. Heck, I'm even tempted. Unfortunately, the 600 MHZ fsb is troubling me (although still higher than the bandwidth of the memory, so it should be more than sufficient - and maybe thats apple's point of view). I'll tell you this much, I am seriously considering this unit because I'm sure it would suit my purposes of corel painter, macromedia studio MX, and normal web browsing/email/stuff. Mighty mighty tempting!

Sorry for the long post, and I look forward to many chats with you all!
- Eric Lozauskas

 

[MacinDoc]

Wouldn't the iMac's onboard video chip perform worse than a dedicated card with it's own processor?

The iMac does have a dedicated video card (in fact, it's the same card that comes standard with most Power Macs). The GPU is just soldered to the midplane assembly and therefore difficult to upgrade without replacing the whole assembly. It even has an AGP 8X connection, just like in a Power Mac.

 

[Qianlong]

Single 1.8Ghz G5 CPU is soldered onto the motherboard???

hello everybody

I just read this news on a French mac site : http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2004-10-23#3093

One more thing... on the mono 1.8 G5 - Lionel - 13:09:12

We’ve said a lot on the “anatomical” differences between the mono 1.8GHz G5 and his big dual processor brothers. There’s a major difference that escaped us (it has only one processor! ;-) ).
The processor is SOLDERED to the motherboard, just like on iMacs and ‘books. In the event of a failure, Apple has to replace both of them.
This design choice, along with those mentioned earlier, has the only purpose of reducing the production costs. It still is a great step backwards, as the last Powermac with a soldered CPU was the 7200, almost 10 years ago (it’s the great karmic wheel rolling on my friends).

It seems the CPU of the single 1.8Ghz G5 is soldered onto the motherboard? Can anyone confirm this?????
that can't be good, especially when I want to buy one

 

[Dr. No]

Go to hardmac.com and look at the other details. They talk about it being a matured product that has been worked on for several months. Good news??

I don't know much about the soldered processor, though.