New Video Pits iPhone Click Wheel Prototype Against Scott Forstall's Icon-Based iPhone Prototype

[dwaltwhit]

Get the new AppleTV with Siri remote and use it to "type" things with the string "keyboard". Should be near enough

or dictate into it. or use your phone to type.

 

[loby]

For the record, Forstall was more important than Ives. Ives developed industrial design cases that met Steve's ideals. He didn't introduce cases and Steve went, ``that's perfect!'' No, there is an entire building full of failed Ive designs. Steve found a `kindred' spirit industrial designer who could produce what he envisioned, not the other way around. Scott was one of the key architects on Openstep.

Yes, he is brash, but he's also amenable when put in his place. I know. I had my brush ups with him. He was used to wearing 7 hats doing his job. We all were at NeXT. When we merged with Apple we couldn't believe how little the average person did at Apple and still bitched it was too much work. That changed rapidly.

Being a NeXT employee had many perks in so we never were interrogated by Steve when he came back and let go if found our position was redundant. That was the Apple legacy crowd, including Blue Box/Red Box cruft, to the 26 marketing departments he whittled down to 1. Yes, there were individual marketing groups for each product made at Apple. There was also 180 internal applications and the IT Budget was asininely off the charts for people getting paid to make these asinine pet software projects that were never intended to be made into actual consumer products.

In short, NeXT folks saved Apple's bacon and it pissed off a lot of legacy who felt threatened. Steve cancelling the paid 12 week Sabbatical option saw a lot of them venting and he offered them the door. OS 9 was a stop-gap Tevanian oversaw to get out the door while OS X was still in development; and wouldn't be nearly viable for a few more years. The amount of cruft at Apple was insane. Lots of resources were leveraged to actually implement streamlined software development practices as no one at Apple had any worth while UNIX experience. So, the iMac became the center piece to pacify the masses, and the iPod was the lucky grand slam that gave Fadell fame for suggesting it but took Jon Rubinstein and his seasoned experience in hardware at NeXT and HP to pull it off.

Losing Rubinstein, Tevanian, Serlet and more takes a toll on any corporation the size of Apple. The replacements aren't on their level.Sina Tamaddon was also vital in ways none of you know.

The only person able to convince all of them to stay on-board and rebuild Apple was Steve. If he had only remained a technical advisor to Amelio the company would have folded in 6 months.

Steve saw something in people so far outside the IT world, brought them in and they became huge points of presence that no one else could have foreseen becoming. Sina was but one example of it. He did that quite frequently at NeXT. He also had a close knit group of luminaries in SV that he drew upon throughout his life which gave him even more insight into building a company.

Tim isn't a local SV product. It shows in his Compaq Southern personality. He's a behind the scenes man who Steve handpicked because he wouldn't sink the ship. Apple will eventually have to find someone who has vision that adheres to the founding principles of its original founder. But that's not now. They are working on the flag ship campus, Project Titan and so much more, but by all means paint Forstall as if you ever worked around him.

The guy is brilliant and well earned his position. Does he have an ego? Hell yes. Did he dwarf Fadell in talent? Hell yes. Tim Cook is not and never will be Steven P. Jobs. He has a more passive aggressive demeanor and doesn't like people to rock the boat: the exact opposite of Steve who demanded a spine and if you could deliver on your boasts you were well rewarded.

Apple is a global company trying to be all things to all cultures, something Tim has worked very hard at achieving.

Let's see what 2017 has now that the flag ship campus will soon be done and no longer preoccupying keep personnel's attention.

Thanks for the peek in..and setting the record straight.

Tim Cook is doing his job and has done it well and people sometimes get confused about a C.E.O.'s role. Steve was the exception and not the norm for a C.E.O. Apple will need to find some 'Think different` people to continue if they want the magic of past glory, but maybe those days are over. Hard to get (pirate) people like NeXT when you are a successful 'large' getting fat 'corporate' company that doesn't really have to do much to fight (right now) or try to make your mark in the world. Apple is cruising on past success (deserved), but will eventually sink...slowly if their current course continues. But saving the ship will be for the 'NeXT' generation when they have to fight again to get to the top. The current cats are getting older and pushing for retirement...and rolling in their well deserved $

 

[slimothy]

Forstall had a great vision for iOS. I really did like iOS 6 and before. It had a snappy feel to it. Apple wanted to progress. We can also speculate why Forstall was fired, but ultimately no one here knows. And it's not really our business. It's clear that Apple had a different vision for iOS, hence the iOS 7 overhaul. Did it make it feel slower? Yes. Did it change the look of almost the entire OS? Sure. But iOS is very good for what it is. We don't know if iOS would have been better or worse with Forstall continuing and not being fired. Do I miss iOS 6 feel? Sure. But I'm excited to see what iOS 11 brings us.

 

[loby]

Thank you for your post, finally a voice of someone with experience.
I have to say that you are completely right about Tim. He has taken Apple far beyond just products and brought stability.
However, it seems to be that Apple are becoming what they fought against from the beginning... in the classic 1984 ad, Apple where the rebels, the misfits (as Steve said in the Think Different campaign) however, it seems like now, Apple is the "big brother". When the phone in your pocket becomes involved in politics (Apple vs Government with 'privacy') and every move from them is being either copied or critisized and the risk taking is no longer part of Apple's culture, then it really makes me wonder about the future of Apple.

I can't comment on the people who work for/at Apple and I don't know if the decisions made are going to pay off, but I honestly feel that if Apple do more "innovating" and less politics, less hiring and firing then things might be better in the long run for Apple. They must not lose focus on what Apple should be doing and that's creating a user experience with technology that makes you "feel" and empowers your creativity.

It's just a "vibe" but the vibe I get is that MS is more stable and yet at the same time, Innovating and creating exiting product. Apple, not so much. If Steve's favourite artist was Dylan, then the times, they are a changin'.

Agree, Microsoft is innovating now why? Because they had too. They saw the writing on the wall and 'Stepped up'. They still have plenty of $ to continue and exist. But...new generation, want to make their mark, do something to make it worth it instead of just collecting their pay check. This is Microsoft now...look at the innovation in ALL areas. They are trying, I give them that at least.

 

[jamface]

I remember the countless cruel jokes MacRumors people would throw at Forstall for months.

yes, he must have felt awful, having to endure that...

t

 

[Paul Dawkins]

LOL everyone wants Scott now. When Timmy fired him everyone forgot who Scott actually is, and bullied him for doing a great job with the iPhone UI.

Not everyone.

 

[LordVic]

Or are you clueless why Forstalls departure occurred? Of course Apple never confirmed specifics, but allegedly He wasn't just terminated because of Cooks doing. Forstall botched Apple maps and Siri was over hyped during his reign, which fell flat. He partly put himself in this position with projects he failed to deliver upon.

Not to mention Forstall was in serious clash with Ive during that period, who was very close to Jobs. So, there were Indifferences between the two. I believe Forstall was a part of Apple's heritage, but we don't know Apple's current standing if he was still employed today.

Not quite what happened. After a few years it came out that Tim Cook essentially dumped Apple maps on Forstall without option. Then Silo'd his team off from the rest of Apple making Forstall work entirely within a small team with no additional support from the rest of Apple. He then gave Forstall a hard deadline to deliver Apple maps by.

when Apple maps was released, with much debacle, Forstall refused to apologize for it, Leaving Tim Cook to do so. So, Cook forced him out.

Forstall was absolutely one of the best product guys Apple ever had. He was basically ousted because Tim Cook cannot seem to Manage departmental resources properly at apple. This is STILL a problem with the Tim Cook era where he frequently juggles resources between projects and can't seem allow departments enough autonomy. We see this with the current MacOS team, which has been allegedely dismantled in favour of putting more developers on iOS. We saw this in 2016 when Apple reportedly put less work towards some products to favour others (such as iPad pro's over Macs).

We're talking about a several dozen billion dollar profitable company here. There's no reason why the company of this size, scope and monetary position cannot operate full teams to support all of Apple's products and initiatives, Except, the CEO who is supposed to manage this sort of direction seems to think only a few dozen people total need to do all the work?

Tim Cook was an amazing supply manager. He did a great job when he was just managing his own area of expertise. But as CEO, he's had many missteps, and Forstall is just one of them. And this is irrelevant of the actual products. As CEO he has not transitioned or positioned Apple in a good place right now. Whether you like to believe it or not, from a financial and market position Apple is in a declining position and Tim Needs to make sure he gets the right people, right departments, and the right product people in place to be able to build new things AND support all their existing product lines.

As for Scott? I can tell you it likely was a personality problem between him and Cook/Ive. Because Job's respected Forstall incredibly from his software/product chops. He was NeXt employee who came over to Apple with Jobs and the two of them were often working closely together until Job's death, when suddenly he was marginalised by Cook.

But maybe the leaving was good for Forstall. He's gone on to do some good stuff. he's now an adviser for charities, he's travelled the world for fun, and produced broadway plays (which won 5 awards at the Tonys)

He's probably laughing at the Current state of Apple software

 

[loby]

Damn, probably the best post I read on MR, ever. Thanks dude.

Agree...it has been awhile.

 

[theluggage]

And you can immediately see why P2 was selected...note how much the user is pushing the buttons on P1 and not using the wheel.

Hang on a mo. First that's not a very compelling "usability" trial - looks like the user is holding a camera in one hand, and is just bumbling around the menus a bit, rather than doing any sort of task-focussed tests.

Also remember that, at the time, the iPod was Apple's flagship consumer product and the click-wheel was one of its iconic features: they weren't going to throw the idea under a bus without giving it a chance.

The one on the left is something the onion would do a parody of

Well, yeah - a rotary dial as the user interface to a telephony product - as if that would ever happen.

Seriously, though, what makes it laughable is the thought of simulating a click wheel on something that looks much like a modern iPhone with a large capacitative touchscreen display. I wonder if that was ever Apple's plan or whether, if they'd gone with P1, the production iPhone would have been physically much more like an iPod Classic, with a physical clickwheel and a smaller, non-touch, or resistive display.

To me, this looks like the P1 OS running on P2 hardware purely for the sake of UI development.

Acorn OS? So the iPhone is actually British. Excellent!

Well, Acorn did invent the ARM processor (and ARM was British until it became the first casualty of Brexit).

That is some serious minimalistic design there, Scott.

It was clearly a lash-up with no pretence at giving it a pretty skin.

The P1 option, on the other hand, has almost certainly used existing assets from the iPod.

I honestly cannot see how I could live my life using a phone with a clickwheel - I mean imagine typing on this thing..

I'm guessing there would be a touch-sensitive numeric pad (only needs a cheap resistive touch sensor) and you'd enter text using the number keys. If you look closely at the P2 prototype, it has the same thing.

One of the design wins of the iPhone not shown here was creating a usable on-screen querty keyboard: something I'd have said was impossible until the iPhone pulled it off.

Forstall botched Apple maps

Apple Maps had one major problem: it wasn't ready. The "botch" was to pull the old Google-driven Maps before the replacement was finished, which was in turn probably a consequence of Apple and Google deciding to go to war.

 

[fishmongerer]

starting to feel this crazy feeling that tim cook has this master plan with scott forstall:
forstall clashes with jony and others at Apple, so tim made a deal with forstall that he'll take a long leave of absence until jony and others retire. then by that time, tim (now age 56) will retire and bring back forstall because he's a "product person" like steve. isn't it weird that forstall hasn't accepted a job position anywhere else (of course maybe there's a non-compete clause in his contract) and hasn't talked about why he left/was fired?

Seriously, this could be the repeat of the story of Jobs. Jobs story was the classic example of the myth of the person sent out into the wilderness, the hero to return and save the company/kingdom...

Forstall would be perfect for Apple. They need a crazy, passionate guy. Cook is about as exciting as an (apologies) bean-counting accountant.

Someone with passion, Apple needs a leader. It doesn't have one now.

 

[masotime]

Not quite what happened. After a few years it came out that Tim Cook essentially dumped Apple maps on Forstall without option. Then Silo'd his team off from the rest of Apple making Forstall work entirely within a small team with no additional support from the rest of Apple. He then gave Forstall a hard deadline to deliver Apple maps by.

when Apple maps was released, with much debacle, Forstall refused to apologize for it, Leaving Tim Cook to do so. So, Cook forced him out.

How do you know this? Did you use to work with them, or is this documented somewhere...?

 

[jonnysods]

Thank you Scott!!

 

[rohanparekh]

Or are you clueless why Forstalls departure occurred? Of course Apple never confirmed specifics, but allegedly He wasn't just terminated because of Cooks doing. Forstall botched Apple maps and Siri was over hyped during his reign, which fell flat. He partly put himself in this position with projects he failed to deliver upon.

Not to mention Forstall was in serious clash with Ive during that period, who was very close to Jobs. So, there were Indifferences between the two. I believe Forstall was a part of Apple's heritage, but we don't know Apple's current standing if he was still employed today.

So you think Apple Maps is now better after Scott's departure?

 

[fishmongerer]

Forstall had a great vision for iOS. I really did like iOS 6 and before. It had a snappy feel to it. Apple wanted to progress. We can also speculate why Forstall was fired, but ultimately no one here knows. And it's not really our business. It's clear that Apple had a different vision for iOS, hence the iOS 7 overhaul. Did it make it feel slower? Yes. Did it change the look of almost the entire OS? Sure. But iOS is very good for what it is. We don't know if iOS would have been better or worse with Forstall continuing and not being fired. Do I miss iOS 6 feel? Sure. But I'm excited to see what iOS 11 brings us.

Bring Forstall back and he can get his own "Jonny Ivie" sidekick to reinvent Apple and get it's act together.

Steve Jobs was essentially fired from Apple back in the day, banished to side projects, and then he quit.

 

[LordVic]

How do you know this? Did you use to work with them, or is this documented somewhere...?

Here's a "Scott was let go because he refused to apologise for Maps article"
http://www.cultofmac.com/198797/app...red-over-refusal-to-sign-maps-apology-report/

Eddy Cue discussion on Apple Maps discussing how the project was silo'd

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...rom-apples-failures-in-new-interview.1987326/

So you're trying to replace one thing with another thing, and we kind of let the team we put in charge of it go off on their own. Now that you understand the complexity of Maps, you realize that it was a relatively small team, and we kind of isolated them in their own little world. We completely underestimated the complexity of the product. If you think of Maps, it seems like it's not that hard. All the roads are known, come on! All the restaurants are known. There's Yelp and Open Table; they have all the addresses. Mail gets delivered; UPS has all the addresses. The mail arrives. FedEx arrives. You know, how hard is this? That was underestimating.

 

[parapup]

Forstall botched Apple maps and Siri was over hyped during his reign, which fell flat. He partly put himself in this position with projects he failed to deliver upon.

Phil Schiller - how is he still going on if two Product failures is all it takes? Clearly the Mac Pro, sliding iPhone sales, and MBP 2016 ought to be bigger failures than Maps and Siri? What about Craig Federighi - he is mostly doing cosmetic back porting on macOS (oh and renaming and choosing code names) while the OS has gotten buggier by the day? I don't think it is as simple as 2 failed product launches and Scott Forstall was out - it has to be more political than that.

[Or may be I misunderstand - since Phil Schiller is purely a marketing guy with no product inputs and/or control over execution? I think that's hard to believe though given how proud he was about the Mac Pro and head phone jack removal.]

 

[whiteboytrash]

Bulls**t. Forstall was the fall guy for Maps. He was Job's guy, didn't mesh with King Ive & was conveniently shown the door when he rightly refused to sign the apology letter. Apple Maps was a disaster from the get-go and was rushed onto the iPhone before it was even CLOSE to a golden-master. His replacement Cue even said as much saying that Apple "had completely underestimated the product, the complexity of it." This falls on Cook as the CEO. He approved & rushed an incomplete product out the door and when he was caught with egg on his face, rather than accepting the blame as he should have, he foisted it off to those beneath him and summarily dismissed them.

And let's not even get started on the Maps 2.0 that is Siri.

I would agree. How Cook allowed Maps to be part of a keynote when it wasn't ready is on him. Jobs would take one look at Maps and say " its not ready - its in beta for 12 months until it's prime time".

Forstall's downfall was Ive. Forstall still believed in Skeuomorphism whereas Ive wanted a more simplistic non-resprestive look and feel to IOS. Ive won because at that time he was threatening to leave and head badk to the UK.

 

[Karma*Police]

More proof that Tim Cook is clueless for firing Scott Forstall.

You forget how many people on this forum couldn't wait to get rid of him due to the lack of innovation, dated design principles and the maps fiasco. I wasn't one of them, but personally, I thought iOS 7 was a breath of fresh air and Apple's done a nice job of evolving it since. Churn is a good thing IMO and there's no indication that Forstall would've done anything great had he stayed.

If anything, I don't think Tim has been aggressive enough in firing executives who haven't performed; I'm looking at you, Cue. Steve was ruthless when it came to that and he was quick to demote (which is the same as firing) executives who weren't performing or sensed that they weren't as driven. He did that to Jon Rubinstein, Tony Fadell and Avie Tevanian.

 

[840quadra]

I would agree. How Cook allowed Maps to be part of a keynote when it wasn't ready is on him. Jobs would take one look at Maps and say " its not ready - its in beta for 12 months until it's prime time".

Jobs was notorious for doing software demos far before there was a finished product. The story published by Ex Apple Engineers regarding the drinking game that occurred during the original iPhone keynote is strong evidence of that. It isn't too far off from stories we can find on places such as Folklore.org of a younger Jobs.

The True visionary that apple is missing is Jobs, not Forstall. I am in the minority, however I moreso miss Bertrand Serlet, who brought us great features in OS X, some which have been forwarded on to the phones. Thankfully Craig Federighi seems to have a level head, and feels like he is bringing some creativity to the software.

 

[5105973]

I think this one is the perfect summary of today's Apple:

If you look at Apple by itself and see the profits, (as many forum members seem to whenever we complain about certain "cheapskate" Apple decisions like sticking with 16GB RAM for so long), things don't seem so bad. And the products don't seem too bad. I'm happy with my iPhone, even as I keep Android phones for the things they do and offer that my iPhone does not...yet.

But when I listen to Steve's words in this video, and reflect on Apple news of late, a little ball of concern and dread forms in my stomach. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm just too mired in the present to know if Apple is currently badly off course, and if so, by how much.

I just know I'm wary.

Which is why I did break out of the ecosystem in 2016 and set myself on the fence, ready to go in whatever direction that will best serve me as a consumer, because I'm not sure the current Apple has the same focus on the consumer experience that Steve was striving for.

 

[lympero]

Thank got Tim wasn't apple's CEO when they decided between touch OS and click wheel OS. I'm pretty sure his choice would be the safe, dull , boring click wheel.

 

[M2M]

or dictate into it. or use your phone to type.

Well if you dictate it use your phone you wouldn't get the painfully clickwheel kind of experience to input something.

 

[JungleNYC]

I gotta say…it took some huge foresight and BALLS to choose the touchscreen design. Sure, we know now where it evolved to, but that a/b demo really puts things into perspective. And 99 out of 100 CEO's would've chosen the UI on the right (click wheel).

 

[5105973]

As a way to navigate the home screen the click wheel seems to make about as much sense as turning the digital crown for selecting an app on the watch instead of just tapping on it...also known as no sense at all

It's hard for some people with big fingers to tap to select the icons on the small watch screen. But some people can. So we can do both. Samsung watches make you both turn a bezel ring and tap, which works well, too.

 

[keysofanxiety]

Not quite what happened. After a few years it came out that Tim Cook essentially dumped Apple maps on Forstall without option. Then Silo'd his team off from the rest of Apple making Forstall work entirely within a small team with no additional support from the rest of Apple. He then gave Forstall a hard deadline to deliver Apple maps by.

Citation?