Next AppleTV?

[kat.hayes]

I want to get a new 4K AppleTV, I do not need one now, so I can wait. Are there any rumors of an update coming anytime soon? What features is the current one missing that might make it into the next update?

Thanks.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I want to get a new 4K AppleTV, I do not need one now, so I can wait. Are there any rumors of an update coming anytime soon? What features is the current one missing that might make it into the next update?

Thanks.

Hi Kat,
No rumors whatsoever unfortunately.

Maybe we'll see an update in autumn 2020 with HDMI2.1 and 120fps for gaming and UI. Apart from Dolby Digital in the iTunes store etc i'm not sure what else is needed for the Apple TV. Apple are not big on lossless audio, so Dolby True HD isn't going to happen which is sad as it would then be a proper disc replacement for even the most conservative of home cinema types. Other than that, it's pretty perfect as products go.
It's an incredibly polished lil streamer.

 

[Longkeg]

Typically today’s top of the line Apple product becomes tomorrow’s entry level device once an update is announced. So the AppleTV 4K will likely still be available, possibly at a reduced price, once the next generation AppleTV goes on sale.

 

[Krakken]

I will be amazed if they don't announce another cheaper Apple TV option this fall/winter. With the launch of the Apple TV+ service they're going to need to get their TV devices in a lot more households for any hope of success.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I will be amazed if they don't announce another cheaper Apple TV option this fall/winter. With the launch of the Apple TV+ service they're going to need to get their TV devices in a lot more households for any hope of success.

It's not going to happen. The old HD model is still being sold at a huge £150 in the UK. Apple does not do cheap - it knows that it does things well and people will save up and pay for it. With its excellent security, updating of tvOS every month and super updates, I'd rather Apple not make a cheaper box. If you want cheap with no security and want to risk using your Apple I.D. on it, buy Amazon or a smart tv platform, if you want a quality experience every time, then buy the Apple TV, just don't expect it to be cheap. A Ferrari will never be the price of a Ford Focus and it shouldn't be, the same for Apple.

 

[d21mike]

I thought the announced Apple TV+ was coming to other platforms which have cheaper devices so I think that alone would not push Apple to release a cheaper device. But maybe a stick option would not be a bad idea.

But I was thinking of the Apple Arcade Service coming in the fall/winter. And with the support for other controllers like XBOX ONE maybe they will be pushing better gaming soon. If so, a more powerful Apple TV could be helpful to compete with XBOX and PS if that is their plan. If they or third party come out with a better gaming platform I would be happy to buy a more powerful Apple TV for that.

 

[EugW]

So I'm wondering if I'm an idiot. I just ordered the 4K 2017 model (32 GB). It was available on the refurb store so I ordered one, despite the fact it's over 650 days old now. But now I'm thinking a new one might show up in the fall.

Then again, I'm not sure what advantage a new model would give me. I don't care about gaming, and it already includes HDMI 2.0 and 4K HDR.

No lossless Atmos, but I don't see that as a big deal. I don't see the streaming services providing lossless Atmos anytime soon. Netflix only just upgraded their Atmos to 768 Kbps, which they claim is perceptually transparent. I'll get my Apple TV 4K tomorrow and give it a listen with Stranger Things this week. I was getting sick of just getting Dolby Digital 5.1 on my TV's audio for 4K Netflix.

Actually, maybe not fall. I'm guessing more realistically maybe 2020, with HDMI 2.1, 120 Hz, and VRR. Also better gaming features, including QFT and ALLM. However none of my other hardware is HDMI 2.1 yet, and I won't buy at full price anyway. It might not be available on the refurb store until later in 2020, and if it's gaming oriented with HDMI 2.1, who knows what it will cost.

When did the 4K model show up in the refurb store?

 

[axboi87]

I'd really like to see an 8k box within the next few years. So many great movies were filmed on 70mm stock which is easily good for 8k and beyond, and most of them have been scanned / remastered in 8k accordingly so the files are there for the streaming. The lamen with 20/20 vision can easily see the difference between 4k and 8k on a 100" or larger screen, and with the advent of affordable home laser projection (4k for now but 8k not far off) this will go hand in hand with these titles. Lawrence of Arabia is a great one that comes to mind that I'd be excited to see in 8k across my living room wall.

 

[EugW]

I'd really like to see an 8k box within the next few years. So many great movies were filmed on 70mm stock which is easily good for 8k and beyond, and most of them have been scanned / remastered in 8k accordingly so the files are there for the streaming. The lamen with 20/20 vision can easily see the difference between 4k and 8k on a 100" or larger screen, and with the advent of affordable home laser projection (4k for now but 8k not far off) this will go hand in hand with these titles. Lawrence of Arabia is a great one that comes to mind that I'd be excited to see in 8k across my living room wall.

For 8K to be truly worth it on a 100" screen, you pretty much have to be sitting at 6 feet or closer.

It should be noted that the recommended THX viewing distance for a 100" screen is about 10 feet, for viewing angle reasons. I would agree with that, because I find sitting that close to a 100" screen annoying. It's like sitting in the front rows at a movie theatre.

For me, the perfect screen at about 7-9 feet seating distance is a 77" 4K OLED. (I purchased a 65" though, for cost reasons.)

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

So I'm wondering if I'm an idiot. I just ordered the 4K 2017 model (32 GB). It was available on the refurb store so I ordered one, despite the fact it's over 650 days old now. But now I'm thinking a new one might show up in the fall.

Then again, I'm not sure what advantage a new model would give me. I don't care about gaming, and it already includes HDMI 2.0 and 4K HDR.

No lossless Atmos, but I don't see that as a big deal. I don't see the streaming services providing lossless Atmos anytime soon. Netflix only just upgraded their Atmos to 768 Kbps, which they claim is perceptually transparent. I'll get my Apple TV 4K tomorrow and give it a listen with Stranger Things this week. I was getting sick of just getting Dolby Digital 5.1 on my TV's audio for 4K Netflix.

Actually, maybe not fall. I'm guessing more realistically maybe 2020, with HDMI 2.1, 120 Hz, and VRR. Also better gaming features, including QFT and ALLM. However none of my other hardware is HDMI 2.1 yet, and I won't buy at full price anyway. It might not be available on the refurb store until later in 2020, and if it's gaming oriented with HDMI 2.1, who knows what it will cost.

When did the 4K model show up in the refurb store?

Hola EugW!!! You're late to the party and welcome! Looking forward to your findings as it's alway an interesting read when you report your thoughts! How has an Apple guy like yourself not had an Apple TV? For me, it's the best Apple device ever (well, after iPhone X design). This September, we've been using Apple TV for nine years and for a few years now, it's our only product connected to our OLED TV. The beautiful UI design and the buttery smooth operation makes it a very sexy slick streamer thing!
Enjoy!

 

[EugW]

Hola EugW!!! You're late to the party and welcome! Looking forward to your findings as it's alway an interesting read when you report your thoughts! How has an Apple guy like yourself not had an Apple TV? For me, it's the best Apple device ever (well, after iPhone X design). This September, we've been using Apple TV for nine years and for a few years now, it's our only product connected to our OLED TV. The beautiful UI design and the buttery smooth operation makes it a very sexy slick streamer thing!
Enjoy!

I’ve had a couple of Apple TVs, including the 1080p version. I didn’t buy the 4K version because I was watching 4K Netflix and Prime Video using my TV’s built in apps. Also, for iTunes, the vast majority of my titles were 1080p only, and my non-iTunes digital titles were not available on Apple TV so the Apple TV 4K was kind of superfluous. (Lately the digital codes that come with discs don’t work with iTunes, so most of my 4K titles are not in my iTunes library.)

The main drawback with 4K Netflix on the TV was that recently it has been updated to support Atmos and I wasn’t getting Atmos over ARC. Also, I’ve finally gotten myself Movies Anywhere, Fandango, and Vudu accounts in the US and have linked a US iTunes account along with my Canadian UltraViolet and Canadian Google Play accounts. If I switch to my US iTunes account in Canada I can watch all these non-iTunes titles on Apple TV as if they were iTunes titles, and some of the titles have been automatically upgraded to 4K as well.

I didn’t have a Movies Anywhere account before because it wouldn’t let Canadians register. I couldn’t register through an IP-hiding VPN either, and I couldn’t even register with my gmail address (which I use in Canada) when I was physically in the US on a US carrier. It seems Movies Anywhere was very strict on who it lets in. A nice user on one of the forums finally was able to get an American friend to set up an account for me last month. The good news is that once you register, it doesn't matter where you are. You can watch those titles from any country.

I started doing all of this because UltraViolet in Canada is shutting down at the end of this month, but should (hopefully) remain available if you've linked them to other retailers.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I’ve had a couple of Apple TVs, including the 1080p version. I didn’t buy the 4K version because I was watching 4K Netflix and Prime Video using my TV’s built in apps. Also, for iTunes, the vast majority of my titles were 1080p only, and my non-iTunes digital titles were not available on Apple TV so the Apple TV 4K was kind of superfluous. (Lately the digital codes that come with discs don’t work with iTunes, so most of my 4K titles are not in my iTunes library.)

The main drawback with 4K Netflix on the TV was that recently it has been updated to support Atmos and I wasn’t getting Atmos over ARC. Also, I’ve finally gotten myself Movies Anywhere, Fandango, and Vudu accounts in the US and have linked a US iTunes account along with my Canadian UltraViolet and Canadian Google Play accounts. If I switch to my US iTunes account in Canada I can watch all these non-iTunes titles on Apple TV as if they were iTunes titles, and some of the titles have been automatically upgraded to 4K as well.

I didn’t have a Movies Anywhere account before because it wouldn’t let Canadians register. I couldn’t register through an IP-hiding VPN either, and I couldn’t even register with my gmail address (which I use in Canada) when I was physically in the US on a US carrier. It seems Movies Anywhere was very strict on who it lets in. A nice user on one of the forums finally was able to get an American friend to set up an account for me last month. The good news is that once you register, it doesn't matter where you are. You can watch those titles from any country.

I started doing all of this because UltraViolet in Canada is shutting down at the end of this month, but should (hopefully) remain available if you've linked them to other retailers.

Oh my goodness, incredible story there EugW I buy my film from iTunes / Vimeo however, as I prefer independent and foreign film, my films tend to be in HD. The Apple TV 4K does a super job of upscaling them AND the auto frame rate / match is incredible as I have an eye for panning jerky/judder - I just wish that Apple had released that wayyyyyy back in the Apple TV 3 days!
Looking forward to your user reports over the next few weeks I'm travelling next week and the week after for a couple of months+ so it'll make great reading on the flights

 

[EugW]

Oh my goodness, incredible story there EugW I buy my film from iTunes / Vimeo however, as I prefer independent and foreign film, my films tend to be in HD. The Apple TV 4K does a super job of upscaling them AND the auto frame rate / match is incredible as I have an eye for panning jerky/judder - I just wish that Apple had released that wayyyyyy back in the Apple TV 3 days!
Looking forward to your user reports over the next few weeks I'm travelling next week and the week after for a couple of months+ so it'll make great reading on the flights

Typically, a good name brand TV will upscale well already itself. You don't need the Apple TV to do that unless it's a TV with bad upscaling. A lot of the lower tier brands like Vizio do poorer upscaling.

As for judder on panning shots, all OLEDs are problematic with it, as it is the nature of the technology. But OLED is so much better in almost everything else, I'm sticking with OLED.

In any case, I have now installed the Apple TV 4K. Video is better both because of 4K and HDR + Dolby Vision, and audio is better too, because of Dolby Atmos. However, if I have the original 4K disc, it's still better on both counts.

OTOH, Netflix audio is an improvement. Before with the TV's built-in app, I had 4K HDR Dolby Vision + Dolby 5.1. Now I get 4K HDR Dolby Vision + Dolby Atmos, and there is better height utilization.

It's nice to have Prime Video 4K as well. Too bad there is no Google Play app.

 

[Realityck]

For 8K to be truly worth it on a 100" screen, you pretty much have to be sitting at 6 feet or closer.

It should be noted that the recommended THX viewing distance for a 100" screen is about 10 feet, for viewing angle reasons. I would agree with that, because I find sitting that close to a 100" screen annoying. It's like sitting in the front rows at a movie theatre.

For me, the perfect screen at about 7-9 feet seating distance is a 77" 4K OLED. (I purchased a 65" though, for cost reasons.)

Feel free to read this article as it debunks that bogus chart.

Can We See 4K/UHD On A Normal Sized Screen? You Betcha! - homecinemaguru.com

How can so many people be so wrong about 4K? I think it boils down to two false assumptions. The first is that vision is limited to 20/20 and second is that the digital media can capture all of the resolution at the resolution of the imager.

Display Resolution Calculator

 

[EugW]

Feel free to read this article as it debunks that bogus chart.

Can We See 4K/UHD On A Normal Sized Screen? You Betcha! - homecinemaguru.com

How can so many people be so wrong about 4K? I think it boils down to two false assumptions. The first is that vision is limited to 20/20 and second is that the digital media can capture all of the resolution at the resolution of the imager.

Display Resolution Calculator

Uh what? That site effectively supports my statement that 8K is not necessary at usual seating distances (for a recommended THX viewing angle).

4K, yeah great, I agree, but 8K, not so much.

 

[priitv8]

Feel free to read this article as it debunks that bogus chart.

By saying the chart is bogus means in other words, that Mr Bernard Lechner (who's the author of that chart) is essentially BS-ing us?
See slides 7 - 16 in this presentation for extensive coverage with examples.

Even though the vision of humans is 20/20 only on average (some have better, some have worse), you can not deny, that the farther you sit, the less detail you see, can you?

BTW the same phenomenon also lies behind the depth of field, so it is actually present in us an working. As you can see from the discussion of circle of confusion, one of the important factors is indeed visual acuity.

 

[andyw715]

For what it does, I think ATV is a good value. And the price point is low enough that even refreshing every 2 years or so (if needed) isn't a bank breaker.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

For what it does, I think ATV is a good value. And the price point is low enough that even refreshing every 2 years or so (if needed) isn't a bank breaker.

Absolutely insane great value ESPECIALLY for the pro quality that it offers AND you can sell it 2 to 3 years later for around 50% of the original value!!! I reckon that most Fire Sticks will be in the landfill 3 years later!

 

[Juicy Box]

For what it does, I think ATV is a good value.

I have a slightly different opinion on the matter.

I feel like for what the ATV4K currently does, it is overpriced, but I feel like the ATV4K could be a really good value if it was utilized at the hardware's full potential.

For what most people currently use the ATV for, which is most likely video streaming, the competition is probably good enough for most. Once the user gets out of the competitions' UI into the streaming app UI, there is little difference on basic playback.

And, all this can be done at a fraction of the price of an ATV4K.

And the price point is low enough that even refreshing every 2 years or so (if needed) isn't a bank breaker.

I agree with this, but only with one ATV being in the home. If you have multiple TVs, and you wanted to upgrade all of them, it would be expensive when compared to the competition.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I have a slightly different opinion on the matter.

I feel like for what the ATV4K currently does, it is overpriced, but I feel like the ATV4K could be a really good value if it was utilized at the hardware's full potential.

For what most people currently use the ATV for, which is most likely video streaming, the competition is probably good enough for most. Once the user gets out of the competitions' UI into the streaming app UI, there is little difference on basic playback.

And, all this can be done at a fraction of the price of an ATV4K.



I agree with this, but only with one ATV being in the home. If you have multiple TVs, and you wanted to upgrade all of them, it would be expensive when compared to the competition.

Sorry buddy I disagree. It's all about user experience and longevity. These products last - many ATV3 from 2012 are still running - that's far superior to our environment rather than cheap Amazon products that have zero thought on the environment.
In life you get what you pay for - cheap is cheap - poor short longevity components, components sourced from 'dodgy' suppliers maybe using child labour or zero renewables etc. Plastic for the remote control, palm oil used in the cheap plastics etc. Apple TV features auto frame rate that performs superbly. Most don't offer that so you are left with jerky movement on your 23.976fps, 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60 fps.
If you think that a cheap product will perform 100% as well as the Apple TV for streaming a 4K Dolby Vision iTunes film with a 100% reliable WiFi signal that will not fail, then I suggest you buy it and try living with it. I for one know why the Apple TV costs a little more - because it performs, it's reliable, it uses top quality components and it is sold by a company that is trying to be one of the most ethical companies on this planet. For people like me who get out and see the world, that truly matters

Your suggestion of multiple TVs & upgrading all boxes would be expensive is vulgar and greedy to me. Less is more - it's just a shame that some of the Western World can't see this. Maybe this beautiful world wouldn't be so damaged and polluted if people stopped their greed!

I suggest that you buy a cheap Roku or Amazon piece of cheap plastic, live with it for six months and then report back your findings. I'm sure that you'll coming running back to the Apple TV.

 

[Juicy Box]

Sorry buddy I disagree.

It is okay, I forgive you.

These products last - many ATV3 from 2012 are still running

You don't have to tell me this, as I own many ATVs:

2 x ATV
1 x ATV2
4 x ATV3
1 x ATV4
2 x ATV4K

I bought at least one of each gen at their respective launch, except for the ATV4K. All of them still work except for my original first gen ATV, but I blame them on myself, as I left some DVD cases on the top of the unit, and it fried the GPU. It works, but has bad artifacts due to the damage.

I suggest that you buy a cheap Roku or Amazon piece of cheap plastic, live with it for six months and then report back your findings. I'm sure that you'll coming running back to the Apple TV.

I have Firestick, Fire TV, a Roku Smart TV, and a Chromecast, the Fires and Chromecast, I got just to play around with, and the Roku came with the TV.

You will not get an argument from me saying that any of the products are better than the ATV4K, as I think the ATV4K is a far better product. The UI is so much better than Fire's and Roku's, I wonder if they are even trying.

But.....

Once in the common apps (which is probably where most people are at for 99% of the time), there is very little difference between them from the laymen's perspective.

Of course there will be AV enthusiasts that can name various reasons why the ATV4K is better than the competition, but I think most people do really care about the details. They want Netflix and HBO, and would much rather pay less than $50 for a device than 3-4 times that for a relatively similar experience.

It's all about user experience

I don't disagree. But, I think the experience that people can get from the cheaper devices is good enough, and that the extra money to get the better experience just isn't worth it to many. I am sure there is some type of data proving this out there.

and longevity.

As mentioned earlier, I agree with you about the ATV's quality. I think it is the superior device. I am not going to comment about the lack of quality of HW from the Fire devices, as I have not had an issue with them.

Even if the competition had an inferior product when it came to HW reliability, with how they are priced, a user could replace them many times for the cost of one ATV4K.

Also, Amazon updates them about every 1-2 years, so as long as they last that long, the user could just replace the older one with the new version.

So, the ATV might have longevity on its side, but the user has to pay for it, while the much cheaper ones are at throw away prices, so longevity is probably not an issue for the user.

Your suggestion of multiple TVs & upgrading all boxes would be expensive is vulgar and greedy to me.

You calling my suggestion vulgar and greedy is just very strange to me, and is an odd thing to say. People have different priorities, and having the best and latest streaming box on every TV in a home is not a priority for most, I bet.

Maybe having 3-6 TVs in a home is unusual in many places around the world, but it is very common in the US, especially for families. Getting new ATVs every 2 years for a large family could be priced over $1k.
[doublepost=1562722429][/doublepost]

and a Chromecast

Oh yeah, I didn't really talk about my experience with the Chromecast, but I pretty much hate it. I know a lot of people like it, but I just didn't.

 

[EugW]

I’m not a fan of Chromecast either. It’s far too limiting, and finicky. Fire TV Stick is more usable in that price category. My main reason for preferring Apple TV though is iTunes video streaming. iTunes has the best video streaming support for paid content, and it’s possible the gap will widen even further when AppleTV+ lands. The interface is also better, and is supposed to be even better in tvOS 13.

Also, it’s easy to switch my Apple IDs at will between my Canadian and US iTunes accounts to watch my Canadian and US iTunes content, without the need for a VPN. This is also useful for my Movies Anywhere content since Movies Anywhere doesn’t link to Canadian accounts. Movies Anywhere is very picky about making sure an account set up is from the US but once set up it will allow access to its content from anywhere, also without the need for a VPN.

BTW, I’m definitely not using much space on my Apple TV 4K. This is after installing a bunch more applications:

Also, the device uses more than 2 GB RAM at idle. I think this tells us we ideally shouldn’t be buying any more 2 GB iDevices. It’s OK for the 2 GB Apple TV HD but it’s already at the minimum memory limit with that device. That (and not just the SoC) probably affects the UI performance to a certain extent in some situations. That along with the faster SoC may be a reason to choose the 4K over the HD model even if you don’t plan on using it with a 4K TV. I suspect the 4K version will receive OS updates for longer too because of both the RAM and the SoC (and because it’s newer and 4K).

PS. Given all the above, I’d be surprised if Apple released a new model Apple TV any time soon. There isn’t really any need for it as far as I can tell. Maybe 2020 or so but not this year. A10X and 3 GB RAM will be sufficient for quite a while.

 

[andyw715]

To me the UI/UX experience of ATV is what makes it a good value (even at 3-4x price of other devices). Same can be said with TiVo vs carrier DVRs (although TiVo's implementation of non DVR things ie. streaming UI's suck, thus why I have an ATV) no contest.

 

[Juicy Box]

To me the UI/UX experience of ATV is what makes it a good value (even at 3-4x price of other devices).

IMO, the tvOS UI is much, much better than the competition. Sometimes I wonder if those other streaming boxes even tried to make a decent UI, as it so horrible. The user experience on the ATV4K is much better too, especially after the elimination/reduction of so many tvOS bugs from the early years and the power of the newer ATV4K hardware.

I also think that most casual tech users would prefer the ATV's UI, but it alone probably wouldn't be worth the huge increase in cost for most, especially since most aspects of the UI are really only going to be used like 1% of the time.

As for user experience, tvOS is the best, imo, but most of this also is only used a small % of the time, as once in the apps, most aspects between the different platforms are similar.

 

[Tech198]

Hi Kat,
No rumors whatsoever unfortunately.

Maybe we'll see an update in autumn 2020 with HDMI2.1 and 120fps for gaming and UI. Apart from Dolby Digital in the iTunes store etc i'm not sure what else is needed for the Apple TV. Apple are not big on lossless audio, so Dolby True HD isn't going to happen which is sad as it would then be a proper disc replacement for even the most conservative of home cinema types. Other than that, it's pretty perfect as products go.
It's an incredibly polished lil streamer.

it is it you polish it