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One of the reasons I like a higher pixel count is because I like to crop images after I take a picture. It is fun to zoom into that tiny little speck to see the hidden detail you missed when you were taking the original picture. It is also fun to take poster size images.

All that said, I agree, You can not pack the optics or the sensor for a truly great high resolution camera into an iPhone package.

PS. I would prefer a strobe over a flash.
 
Phones offering 8MP are pandering to the ignorant who simply buy on tech specs without understanding what they mean.


The Nokia N8 with a 'pandering to the ignorant' 12mp sensor thankfully has 4000x3000 from an 8.75mm sensor with an F2.8 Carl Zeiss lens and Xenon flash so at least they'll ignorantly get some decent shots of their iPhone using friends complaining about their inability to take shots in anything but sunlight. ;)
 
Canon's original 1D professional DSLR only has a 4MP sensor, yet something tells me it would blow away the iPhone's 5MP sensor in terms of image quality.
 
I hope they keep the camera at 3MP.

A device as thin as the iPhone requires a short focal length. This dictates the use of a very small sensor. It's basic physics. There's no way around it.

Increasing the pixel count means higher pixel density. This means more noise = bad.

3MP please.
 
Claim:
The Nokia takes better photos, but it is not because it has more megapixels.

Agree. From the samples posted, I can only conclude that the Nokia takes great photos in bright light outdoors.

The issue brought up by those advocating for a lower pixel count is that a higher-pixel count (given the same technology and sensor size) will inevitably increase noise. This is not something that anybody knowledgeable will debate: it's a fact of physics.

Noise is not a problem in well-lit scenes, because the signal/noise ratio is much higher than in low-light scenes.

So, the only question is: does the increased pixel count increase noise in low light unacceptably?

Curiously, we've seen no examples from the Nokia in low-light situations.
 
4x6 at 300dpi is 1200x1800 pixels, or 2.16 megapixels. The human eye can't really differentiate detail beyond 300 dpi.

This is consistent with my own experience that you can get great 8x10's and decent 11x14s from a 3MP camera. Of course, they have to be properly scaled and printed.

I'd rather have a lower pixel count with a larger sensor, and optical zoom (liquid lens, anyone?).

Given an optical zoom, there's nothing I'm going to shoot on my cell phone that needs an 8-12MP sensor. I'd rather have the real-estate devoted to improved low-noise performance and a better lens than inflating pixel count to keep naive consumers happy.
 
This is consistent with my own experience that you can get great 8x10's and decent 11x14s from a 3MP camera. Of course, they have to be properly scaled and printed.

I'd rather have a lower pixel count with a larger sensor, and optical zoom (liquid lens, anyone?).

Given an optical zoom, there's nothing I'm going to shoot on my cell phone that needs an 8-12MP sensor. I'd rather have the real-estate devoted to improved low-noise performance and a better lens than inflating pixel count to keep naive consumers happy.
Absolutely 100%+. This is the way forward. Not higher pixel counts. Unfortunately, the general public has been led to believe otherwise.
 
LOL. Nice improvement, while other phones are getting close to replacing real cameras.

Like the HTC Incredible's 8 megapixel wonder, about which Wired says:

"The 8-megapixel camera with LED flash performs so well, we abandoned our trusty Canon point-and-shoot in favor of the Incredible's photo and video-capturing skills."

http://www.wired.com/reviews/product/pr_htc_incredible

And about the Incredible's combination of Android OS 2.1 and Sense, Engadget says:

"To say that this UI is competitive with something like iPhone OS 3.1 (or 4 for that matter), or Palm's webOS is an understatement; in many ways it's superior to what Apple and Palm are offering.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/19/droid-incredible-review/

And the Incredible does Flash.

Ah, it is so tempting to dump my 3GS....


Hey, I was getting excited until you said it does Flash. I've always hated Flash. Can you plug in a mouse to play Flash games?

But, the fact is that the current iPhone camera is lacking. It is silly to expect such a compact device to produce 35mm film quality slides, like a few professionals DSLR's do. But, you can see from the comparisons that Apple could do a lot better in a camera point and shoot. One thing I didn't see in the Incredible review, though, was location stamping of pictures. I love this feature. Every camera should have a built-in GPS and time/location stamp each picture.
 
The megapixel myth assumes that comparison is based on same sensor size. If sensor size is different, you can not really make comparison.

Nokia phone uses 1/1.9'' sensor format. Many of current 5MP mobile camera sensor use 1/4'' format. Based on these numbers, nokia phone should have roughly same amount of noise with other 5MP cameras out there. If they cramp 12MP on 1/4 format, the noise will be huge. (btw, AFAIK, there is no 12mp mobile camera on 1/4 format right now)

On top of that, they are using one of the top notch lens. Many mobile phone camera use very poor lens sometimes it's not even glass. :eek:

Also, most of the current mobile phone camera sensor can do "pixel binning". Basically, when you downsample the image, they can average the pixel and increase the sensitivity of the sensor, hence, smaller noise. This will help if you are taking video smaller than full resolution. Even full HD is much smaller resolution than 5MP. But, you can not use this as a counter argument for "megapixel myth" is not valid since it is not really based on full 12MP resolution.
Exactly. Someone needs to slap anyone mentioning the 'megapixel myth' without them understanding it's a naive argument and the N8 proves it.

http://conversations.nokia.com/2010...xel-sample-photos-shot-on-nokia-n8-untouched/
 
Phones offering 8MP are pandering to the ignorant who simply buy on tech specs without understanding what they mean.

I understand exactly what I am getting with my N86 8MP. 8 megapixel with Carl zeiss lens featuring variable aperture, 3 stops. A pocket camera sized ccd, dual third gen led flash and photos that are better then my N95 which had 5 MP. It has better low light performance more megapixals and more shooting features. My N95 takes better pictures then the 3GS and it is nearly 4 years old. I was hoping the iPhone 4 would take pictures as good as the N95 and it might. Now Nokia has the N8, they are promising and seem to be delivering more of everything, in fact the results look like a good compact to me. I know that my D90 will take better pictures with it's dx sized CMOS sensor. I can't take my D90 everywhere, I do take my N86 everywhere. I want to get an iPhone but my number one App aside from phone calls is taking pictures. I really hope that apple has not listened to you guys and progressed the camera significantly. If they have the same crappy 3 MP sensor with just a lowly single led flash, I will be buying the N8 even though I swore I was done with Nokia.

If you have some sort of proof showing a modern 3 MP camera phone snapping pictures that are better then the N8 then post them, hell even better then the 4 year old N95. You can't. I can post 5,8,12 MP pics from a camera phone that will make the 3 MP iPhone pics look horrible.
 
camera size

I dont get this camera size problem. Japanese mobile phone cameras in Japan are 10 megapixel. Photos look are in Iphoto. I have seen one phone recently. It zooms great and does flash etc.
 
If it doesn't have a 17GP lens, it's not worth it

http://www.yosemite-17-gigapixels.com/

also, i would like to be able to set the year and photograph what that spot will look like in the past or future

and color correction.
also it should be a 360 degree lens.
//////////////////////

Actually the part I'm concerned about is "mass produce them starting in the second half of this year"

WHAT? How am I going to get this in my next gen phone in a month which is in the first half of the year if they're not starting production until the second half of the year?
 
Next iPhone Camera

I don't know how the rest of you feel (hence the thread), but with the Incredible having an 8MP camera, I hope Apple steps to the plate with its next iPhone camera.

I know there's the whole "it's a phone, not a camera" arguement. But let's face it: all anyone wants is one do-it-all piece of equipment that does everything well.

Make it happen, Stevie.
 
I know there's the whole "it's a phone, not a camera" arguement. But let's face it: all anyone wants is one do-it-all piece of equipment that does everything well.

The camera will not perform any better just because its 8MP instead of 5MP. The only reason SLRs have more MP is because the sensor is several dozen times bigger.

Generally, all other things being equal, if you increase pixel count, you increase noise, and lower sharpness. Is that what you really want? Just for a bigger number?
 
I don't care how many mega pixel the next iPhone gets.... What's important is the sensor... A 5mp camera with a good sensor can produce nicer picture than a 8mp... The prototype from gizmodo site show the next iPhone with a bigger lens... We wi soon know....
 
5 megapixels doesn't mean much honestly. The quality of the sensor and the optics will determine if the upgrade is worthwhile. That being said the possibility of a significantly better camera is there.

In any event the rumors seem to indicate a very interesting and compelling next gen iPhone.

Dave

Yessir, and good optics cost moola which manufacturers rarely shell out for cellular handsets

Phones offering 8MP are pandering to the ignorant who simply buy on tech specs without understanding what they mean.

The same can be said about 5MP phones too. All manufacturers use the MP count for marketing purposes.

This is consistent with my own experience that you can get great 8x10's and decent 11x14s from a 3MP camera. Of course, they have to be properly scaled and printed.

I'd rather have a lower pixel count with a larger sensor, and optical zoom (liquid lens, anyone?).

Given an optical zoom, there's nothing I'm going to shoot on my cell phone that needs an 8-12MP sensor. I'd rather have the real-estate devoted to improved low-noise performance and a better lens than inflating pixel count to keep naive consumers happy.

BINGO!
 
Agree. From the samples posted, I can only conclude that the Nokia takes great photos in bright light outdoors.

The issue brought up by those advocating for a lower pixel count is that a higher-pixel count (given the same technology and sensor size) will inevitably increase noise. This is not something that anybody knowledgeable will debate: it's a fact of physics.

The Nokia N8 uses a sensor that is about NINE TIMES LARGER than the sensor in the iPhone. Again, those of us advocating for a higher pixel count aren't suggesting you keep the sensor size the same. That would be silly.


Noise is not a problem in well-lit scenes, because the signal/noise ratio is much higher than in low-light scenes.

So, the only question is: does the increased pixel count increase noise in low light unacceptably?

Curiously, we've seen no examples from the Nokia in low-light situations.

Nokia have an F2.8 Carl Zeiss Lens and a Xenon flash. Low-light should not be a problem. The fact you've not seen examples of low-light images is not 'curious'. They've not released the phone yet.

seedster2 said:
Yessir, and good optics cost moola which manufacturers rarely shell out for cellular handsets

The Nokia N8 costs £320 unlocked. The iPhone is £450 locked to a network.

Jimmy James said:
A device as thin as the iPhone requires a short focal length. This dictates the use of a very small sensor. It's basic physics. There's no way around it.

The N8 is 0.6mm thicker than an iPhone 3GS at the camera lens. It's thinner for the rest of the body. Perhaps Nokia are ignoring basic physics. :D

I don't want to keep banging on about it but Nokia can do it, why can't Apple?
 
I'll take better optics over megapixels any day. How large do you plan to blow up your pictures anyway?
 
It's not just Apple but most of other phone makers can't

Apple might not come up with something like this since they are not Nokia. Actually, none of the handset makers in the world has huge buying powers of Nokia. At least, not yet.

The camera sensor and lens that N8 is using are very special one. If other phone makers is trying to get this kind of camera modules, they are most likely face the supply problem. Being Nokia, they can play and produce with such rare item. If you look other handset makers (not just apple but other big names such as Motorla, LGE, Samsung, Sony Ericson, Panasonic etc. ), None of them can currently ship product based on this kind of special camera module. They just can't since they can't secure the supply at reasonable cost.

Image processing technology is important factor to produce better quality but it's not magic. You can't do only so much without proper HW support.

1/1.9" require pretty big case. I don't know how big N8 is but I am sure they can barely fit the module inside. F2.8 in Mobile phone world is not considered as fast lens. It is very typical. It is more like F5.6 in DSLR world. So I am not sure how much that will help low light performance. Of course, lens is top notch so it will definitely help image quality. Again, this lens is not easily available to many vendors at reasonable cost. It is only for selective few and I don't think Apple achieved that status yet. At this rate, Appple will be in selective group near future but not yet.

Basically, what I am saying is you should not make judgement on Apple based on very special device from one vendor. It's not just apple only but all the handset makers will have hard time to produce 12MP camera which match N8's image quality. The reason is not necessary becasue of they are technologically inferior to Nokia but mostly because of supply chain issue of gettting hold of top notch component.


Also, the final saying on image quality on mobile phone should come from actual user. All these demo pictures are look greate but you should keep that in mind that these are taken by pros. They can take a really good picures with really bad camera. :)

Some of these shot might be taken from tripod so that they can reduce the hand shake. Knowing that they will take demo image with tripod, they can take advantage of tripod by slowing down the frame rate to increase the exposure, hence, less noise. If same thing happend (i.e frame rate is dropped excessivly) in real life when typical end user hand held the phone, image becomes quite blurry. I don't know they used this kind of technique or setting in these demo images but it's hard to know. All the maketing demo (not just from nokia but from everyone ) only shows image but not how they take these images. :D



The Nokia N8 uses a sensor that is about NINE TIMES LARGER than the sensor in the iPhone. Again, those of us advocating for a higher pixel count aren't suggesting you keep the sensor size the same. That would be silly.




Nokia have an F2.8 Carl Zeiss Lens and a Xenon flash. Low-light should not be a problem. The fact you've not seen examples of low-light images is not 'curious'. They've not released the phone yet.



The Nokia N8 costs £320 unlocked. The iPhone is £450 locked to a network.



The N8 is 0.6mm thicker than an iPhone 3GS at the camera lens. It's thinner for the rest of the body. Perhaps Nokia are ignoring basic physics. :D

I don't want to keep banging on about it but Nokia can do it, why can't Apple?
 
My DSLR is only 6MP but takes way better pictures than my mom's 12MP point and shoot. So yeah, I echo the above posts.

But to the above posts, why are we assuming all OP cares about is megapixels? It's clear the Incredible has 8MP and a better sensor based on the sample photos I've seen and reviews I've read. Probably what he meant.

I think we'll see both higher MP and better sensor, but not as good as the Incredible.
 
+1 on sensor and lens. Could care less if it was 5MP or 8MP. Give me a bigger sensor and bigger/better lens.
 
Apple might not come up with something like this since they are not Nokia. Actually, none of the handset makers in the world has huge buying powers of Nokia. At least, not yet.

While that is true, the sensor they are using is only on one model, not every model, so we're probably talking about unit numbers that are probably in the same ballpark, n8 v iPhone.

This is Nokia's replacement for the mid-range N86. I'd guess the N97 replacement might get it too when more Symbian^3 devices emerge.

Saying that, it's possibly an in-house design or Carl Zeiss specific for Nokia whereas Apple almost always uses off the shelf parts.

The camera sensor and lens that N8 is using are very special one. If other phone makers is trying to get this kind of camera modules, they are most likely face the supply problem. Being Nokia, they can play and produce with such rare item. If you look other handset makers (not just apple but other big names such as Motorla, LGE, Samsung, Sony Ericson, Panasonic etc. ), None of them can currently ship product based on this kind of special camera module. They just can't since they can't secure the supply at reasonable cost.

Actually it's getting pretty common to see 8-12mp cameraphones. eg. Sony Ericsson Satio. Samsung Omnia


You also have to remember the N8 is priced at about half the price of an iPhone and hardware wise it surpasses the iPhone in every department.

1/1.9" require pretty big case. I don't know how big N8 is but I am sure they can barely fit the module inside.

The N8 is 12mm thick bulging to 12.9mm at the lens. iPhone 3GS is 12.3mm at it's thickest.

What was that about skating to where the puck is going to be? ;)
 
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