No MP until September?

[telequest]

didn't mention the enthusiast user, but they'd fall into the same catagory as an independent pro and students.

Some independents can fall more into the entity category if they've the ability to set equipment budgets (and keep depositing funds for that purpose) in order to fulfill a replacement cycle as well as cover expansion (i.e. new contract, and both new personnel and equipment are necessary to complete it).

Neither POV is "wrong", just from a different perspective, and is primarily related to the availability of funds = significant perception difference of system value.

Thanks Nano for your sane voice on this.

I'm a pro user in that I make a living using my Mac Pro – primarily video production, using Final Cut Studio and Adobe CS. But that doesn't lead me to poo-poo the views of enthusiasts, gamers, students or anybody spending time using the platform for whatever they do. I think we're all interested in getting a good value for whatever money we fork over to Apple for whatever reason we do it.

My take on the delay in the 2010 release is this: If my company got a job where our aging G5's would no longer cut it, of course we'd buy whatever technology is currently available to get the job done. No rational person, "pro" or not, would do any different. But given the iffy value of the 2009s, we'd likely go the refurb route if the right machines were available.

But at this moment, the exact date that we upgrade is discretionary. And we're looking to make an investment that will last about 5 years or so. Buying a technology released in March 2009 (1.25 years ago) means giving up about 25 percent of our best-guess useful life for the kind of work we expect to be doing ... vs a new model based on today's technology. And if we can get a machine that's 20 percent faster by waiting a bit more, that means a machine running 20 percent faster for the next 5 years. That adds up to real time and real money.

I don't really care about bragging rights about having the very latest, since for years 2 through 5 it won't be.

Anyway, here I sit, money in hand, but not about to spend it on last year's machine (or maybe 2008's) unless I get a really good reason to do so.

 

[nanofrog]

I also don't buy the idea though, that it's ONLY an issue for independents/students/enthusiasts, as so many say here. I work for a pretty high powered place, that works with the US and Mexican govt., NASA, the EPA, NSF blah blah blah.

I can tell you we don't want to buy a Mac Pro (I would gladly use one but they won't get one for me). We strictly buy PC's, and it's basically because of price, performance, and software. Spending twice as much for the same machine IS a big deal to even highly organized "professional" groups.

I would be wary of buying into the sort of stereotyping and categorization that users here like to constantly espouse regarding Mac Pros.

The fact your company uses PC's and related software, actually falls in line with what I'm used to seeing.

Larger entities are more likely to upgrade on MTBR cycles rather than waiting it out for a specific system (though this does happen at times to fulfill a specific need). But they have to watch the bottom line carefully, and MP's and OS X based software is a hard sell (it does cost more, and there are fewer choices).

I even see where the catagorization aspect can have limitations (there are certainly going to be situations where there are exceptions). And most I can think of off the top of my head, are financially based.

Where the argument sticks however, is in a pure OS X environment. Now there's no choice but to use an MP in such a situation (corporate IT depts. tend not to like mixed environments where a MP would coexist with PC based systems, and certainly wouldn't touch a hackintosh = why your company won't get you an MP).

For those on fixed budgets (and the funds are much more limited), such as independents,... , the current line of MP's are a hard sell when you think about the value the '06 - '08 systems provided (software costs balance out, given it's the same on both sides of the equation for a specific user).

 

[nanofrog]

Xeons have dual QPI to allow them to work in 2 socket configs. Quite similar? Yes. "Exact?" No. This is Intel's work though, not Apple.

In the case of a Quad core Xeon, they are the same except that the ECC functionality is ENABLED on the Xeon variant (both have a single QPI link).

The DP parts have a 2nd QPI link, as it's necessary to connect the 2x chips together. Otherwise, there's no other way for them to communicate with one another (different architecture than the FSB based parts of previous years).

You don't use ECC RAM in your servers?

Not all do (if it's actually possible as a means of saving costs), but most do. Not because it was desired that way, but because there's no choice (i.e. '06 - '08 MP's HAD to use ECC, as that was the only memory that was possible to be used). Intel designed the Xeon line that way.

The Nehalem architecture changed that. It can actually run non ECC DDR3 if desired.

So you could build a computer that from parts from Fry's that would boot Snow Leopard and perform better than current Mac Pro?

It's possible.

Check out sites such as insanelymac.com, and see for yourself. That's not to say a hack is a viable solution for everyone however, as the user is responsible for any and all support. Which truly means they have to have both the time and skills to do so.

Not an attractive scenario if the system is used for earning an income.

Thanks Nano for your sane voice on this.

I'm a pro user in that I make a living using my Mac Pro – primarily video production, using Final Cut Studio and Adobe CS. But that doesn't lead me to poo-poo the views of enthusiasts, gamers, students or anybody spending time using the platform for whatever they do. I think we're all interested in getting a good value for whatever money we fork over to Apple for whatever reason we do it.

My take on the delay in the 2010 release is this: If my company got a job where our aging G5's would no longer cut it, of course we'd buy whatever technology is currently available to get the job done. No rational person, "pro" or not, would do any different. But given the iffy value of the 2009s, we'd likely go the refurb route if the right machines were available.

But at this moment, the exact date that we upgrade is discretionary. And we're looking to make an investment that will last about 5 years or so. Buying a technology released in March 2009 (1.25 years ago) means giving up about 25 percent of our best-guess useful life for the kind of work we expect to be doing ... vs a new model based on today's technology. And if we can get a machine that's 20 percent faster by waiting a bit more, that means a machine running 20 percent faster for the next 5 years. That adds up to real time and real money.

I don't really care about bragging rights about having the very latest, since for years 2 through 5 it won't be.

Anyway, here I sit, money in hand, but not about to spend it on last year's machine (or maybe 2008's) unless I get a really good reason to do so.

Sanity and perspective was the real goal of the post, not trying to force-fit/pidgeon-hole users into categories.

I see it as a matter of perspective, which results from a combination of situation and available budgets. As it happens, the 2 category method made sense as a means to explain that (category count is based on observations of posts here on MR).

 

[bzollinger]

I don't know where this 'untalented' idea has come from - certainly isn't from me - better post up the quote on that one since there's some rather extraordinary allegations here.

To cover this again - since it's evidently not clear - the difference between professionals and consumers IS;

Consumers HAVE a choice as to when they buy. They have the fabulous luxury of sitting it out for 1 to 6,7,8,9 to X months until the machine they are willing to buy is released. The greatest consequence for them is they have to carry on surfing the net and watching media on their current computer. That doesn't negate their relevance, their opinion or their value or worth as owners and users of Mac Pros - it just means they have the freedom to wait. Most consumers are just miffed about having to wait.

Professionals who have paying gigs reach a point when updating is no longer a choice - it has to be done - and they VERY RELUCTANTLY buy a current Mac Pro, knowing full well there will be a new one in a few months.

Nice dig on the non-pros surferfromuk. Cause if you're not making money with your MP, all you do is surf (sarcasm intended)!

Kind of a funny comment considering your username has surf in it.

 

[bzollinger]

To me, the real sticking point is the fact user's are tied to OS X based software. Apple is fully aware of this, and taking advantage of the situation.

It's not ethical, but it's business (ethics haven't anything to do with it, only what they can/can't get away with within applicable laws).

Those earning a living, particularly video/graphics work, can find themselves in a situation where a contract is in-hand, and the purchase of an existing system is justified as they'll make money (assuming they've not under-bid to the point they'll actually see a loss).

For independents/students/enthusiasts (typically having low budgets), this is a much harder pill to swallow. They want more value in their systems, and is reasonable from their POV.

Apple however, will do what's in their best interest. If that means adding value by lowering prices,... GREAT. But going by recent history, that won't happen.

The best we can hope for IMO, is the added value provided by Intel (i.e. higher clock speeds for the same/similar money as the CPU's in the '09 MP's).

+1 on having $$ tied up in OSX software!

This is a significant expense for the independants/students/enthusiasts.

My main true use for needing a fast computer comes from working with 18MP RAW files and HD video clips from my dslr. Because of that I've got quite a bit of $$ tied up in photoshop and lightroom. I don't want to have rebuy all the software I've purchased over the years..

 

[TennisandMusic]

Xeons have dual QPI to allow them to work in 2 socket configs. Quite similar? Yes. "Exact?" No. This is Intel's work though, not Apple.

Not the quad core model.

 

[surferfromuk]

Nice dig on the non-pros surferfromuk. Cause if you're not making money with your MP, all you do is surf (sarcasm intended)!

Kind of a funny comment considering your username has surf in it.

How is that a dig? I suppose I could create a massive list of things if you want. Seems like people are just looking for a rumble in this forum right now.

Quote myself ;

That doesn't negate their relevance, their opinion or their value or worth as owners and users of Mac Pros - it just means they have the freedom to wait. Most consumers are just miffed about having to wait.

Tell me is that a wrong statement?

I am a consumer too you know - I do know the frustrations of waiting for tech gear, of buying gear that is just replaced the moment you buy it etc etc...

So I didn't list the thousands of things you can do on a computer - woopsy me!

Perhaps I should dress all my posts up in pretty little pink bows so as not to offend anyone who seemingly is looking for something to get offended about.

Bl**dy cabin fever is setting in with these forums right now.

 

[TennisandMusic]

So you could build a computer that from parts from Fry's that would boot Snow Leopard and perform better than current Mac Pro?

Well I'm not familiar with Hackintosh, but I'm sure it could be done, so yes. I was merely speaking from an overall performance standpoint, with Windows 7. Outside of some specific software, Windows does everything OSX does, and more actually. I would prefer to use OSX, but as a "pro" I do what I need to to get the job done. That's what makes someone a pro; The results they get, not the tools they use.

 

[Apple Corps]

+1 on having $$ tied up in OSX software!

...Because of that I've got quite a bit of $$ tied up in photoshop and lightroom. I don't want to have rebuy all the software I've purchased over the years..

How much does it cost to transfer your PS and LR software license to Windows? Is that an alternative?

 

[Apple Corps]

What does "Pro" mean?

For me, and others I suspect, we could drop the "Pro" label - call it the Mac Expandable or Mac Configureable - processor speed is only 1 of many considerations.

 

[surferfromuk]

+1 on having $$ tied up in OSX software!

This is a significant expense for the independants/students/enthusiasts.

My main true use for needing a fast computer comes from working with 18MP RAW files and HD video clips from my dslr. Because of that I've got quite a bit of $$ tied up in photoshop and lightroom. I don't want to have rebuy all the software I've purchased over the years..

Wouldn't the price difference in the 'overpriced' Mac Pro's balance this out? I mean people are always saying you can buy a PC for half the price - that would allow you to crossgrade off the Mac.

Just saying ( not looking for a fight!)

 

[bzollinger]

How much does it cost to transfer your PS and LR software license to Windows? Is that an alternative?

As far as I know there isn't a transfer option. You'd have to re-buy, then maybe sell your Mac software, but since CS5 is out and LR3 is on the way, I don't know how much $$ you could get.

 

[TennisandMusic]

I don't know where this 'untalented' idea has come from - certainly isn't from me - better post up the quote on that one since there's some rather extraordinary allegations here.

To cover this again - since it's evidently not clear - the difference between professionals and consumers IS;

Consumers HAVE a choice as to when they buy. They have the fabulous luxury of sitting it out for 1 to 6,7,8,9 to X months until the machine they are willing to buy is released. The greatest consequence for them is they have to carry on surfing the net and watching media on their current computer. That doesn't negate their relevance, their opinion or their value or worth as owners and users of Mac Pros - it just means they have the freedom to wait. Most consumers are just miffed about having to wait.

Professionals who have paying gigs reach a point when updating is no longer a choice - it has to be done - and they VERY RELUCTANTLY buy a current Mac Pro, knowing full well there will be a new one in a few months.

I never accused you of being the "one" to inspire my initial post. It's been something that's been observed for months on this board.

The difference between pros and consumers, is their skill and talent level, and the results they produce. Not the tools they use, or when they "have" to buy. Can you name a situation in which a top pro is using such outdated equipment that he absolutely HAS to upgrade and is strong armed into buying a low value machine? Maybe if someone's G5 dies? But then if he's a "pro" via your definition, why is he burning up so much of his time using such an outdated machine? It would be far more economically viable to get a faster machine and get more work done, thereby increasing revenue.

I would imagine someone absolutely NEEDING to upgrade would fall more into the hobbyist, or consumer space, since their time isn't valuable enough to keep up to date. Of course, that's total conjecture, but it does have plenty of reasoning behind it.

 

[TennisandMusic]

As far as I know there isn't a transfer option. You'd have to re-buy, then maybe sell your Mac software, but since CS5 is out and LR3 is on the way, I don't know how much $$ you could get.

Actually, based on more than one report, you can call them and have them transfer your license for free.

 

[bzollinger]

Wouldn't the price difference in the 'overpriced' Mac Pro's balance this out? I mean people are always saying you can buy a PC for half the price - that would allow you to crossgrade off the Mac.

Just saying ( not looking for a fight!)

I've considered that, and it's a semi-good point.

However I see the problem as, now I'm switching platforms (would rather stay w/ OSX), buying redundant software (rarely a good idea), and I'm still paying about what I would for an overpriced outdated Mac Pro! Damn !

Cabin fever = waiting for new MP

 

[bzollinger]

Actually, based on more than one report, you can call them and have them transfer your license for free.

Really! I have never heard of that. I might have to follow up on that, if nothing else out of curiosity. Thanks for the possibility!

 

[surferfromuk]

I never accused you of being the "one" to inspire my initial post. It's been something that's been observed for months on this board.

The difference between pros and consumers, is their skill and talent level, and the results they produce. Not the tools they use, or when they "have" to buy. Can you name a situation in which a top pro is using such outdated equipment that he absolutely HAS to upgrade and is strong armed into buying a low value machine? Maybe if someone's G5 dies? But then if he's a "pro" via your definition, why is he burning up so much of his time using such an outdated machine? It would be far more economically viable to get a faster machine and get more work done, thereby increasing revenue.

I would imagine someone absolutely NEEDING to upgrade would fall more into the hobbyist, or consumer space, since their time isn't valuable enough to keep up to date. Of course, that's total conjecture, but it does have plenty of reasoning behind it.

I don't seek to speak for all, Tennis. I can only say in my situation I had jobs I couldn't complete on current tech and I had to bump up quickly or lose work.

I'd rather have waited two months - that's a universal sentiment I'm sure.

 

[TennisandMusic]

I don't seek to speak for all, Tennis. I can only say in my situation I had jobs I couldn't complete on current tech and I had to bump up quickly or lose work.

I'd rather have waited two months - that's a universal sentiment I'm sure.

Well you are probably one of the rare very top end users of these machines. I just think there are a myriad of situations for users, and that because the choices from Apple are so few, they should be doing a better job of keeping them current, and at least a reasonably good value. That's all.

 

[surferfromuk]

I've considered that, and it's a semi-good point.

However I see the problem as, now I'm switching platforms (would rather stay w/ OSX), buying redundant software (rarely a good idea), and I'm still paying about what I would for an overpriced outdated Mac Pro! Damn !

Cabin fever = waiting for new MP

Too right!

I know with my copy of CS5 I can swap and get a PC disk set and serial number for £10. So shouldn't be a problem.

 

[surferfromuk]

Well you are probably one of the rare very top end users of these machines. I just think there are a myriad of situations for users, and that because the choices from Apple are so few, they should be doing a better job of keeping them current, and at least a reasonably good value. That's all.

Not that top end - it was more just timing really.

Personally I think Apple should pre-announce the new Mac Pro they do with iPhone so everyone has a two month decision/planning window - doesn't hurt iPhone sales and judging by this forum it really pleases nobody to have such random ship times.

 

[nanofrog]

Actually, based on more than one report, you can call them and have them transfer your license for free.

I managed it, but with a different type of product (LabView OS X swapped for a Windows version). But I wouldn't expect that to be commonplace, so users should put in the research to verify what they'd have to pay for, and how much of course if they're looking to switch OS's.

 

[xgman]

We should delete this whole thread. It might give Apple ideas, then again I doubt Apple ever looks this way.

 

[cutthroughthebs]

I know people doing platinum albums on mac pros and on G5's too... I don't think there's any one of you that could do any better work than your doing now on whatever your using let alone a faster one! Another useless thread!
Where do you people come from anyway? I know, they are switchers! I really wish that all the switchers would just go back to your PC's and let us that know WTF were doing alone!
I take my GF's out to steak and lobster while you broke dicks take yours to ronalds he he. If you can't afford it don't buy it! Get on your hackintosh or your bindblows machine and make a million then! Good luck because if you haven't done it yet you NEVER will!!!!

 

[TennisandMusic]

I know people doing platinum albums on mac pros and on G5's too... I don't think there's any one of you that could do any better work than your doing now on whatever your using let alone a faster one! Another useless thread!
Where do you people come from anyway? I know, they are switchers! I really wish that all the switchers would just go back to your PC's and let us that know WTF were doing alone!
I take my GF's out to steak and lobster while you broke dicks take your to ronalds he he. If you can't afford it don't buy it! Get on your hackintosh or your bindblows maching and make a million then!

I love it.

Real Mac Pros. Treating their girlfriends to lobster, while you dine at the Golden Arches.

 

[cutthroughthebs]

You better believe it! I get tired or hearing from these so called experts about how under powered the mac hardware is while Im making a VERY comfortable living off them and reaching my goals. These people whing about how crappy apples hardware is couldn't even type a meaningful post to a thread let alone live off thier mac or any computer for that matter!!! The Mac Pro's will come out when they come out but Im still cruzin right along with the mac I have now doing work that you see and hear every day. I think some need to start thinking more on the lines that they just don't have the chops and quit worrying about what tomorrow brings because hey, today you sucked... tomorrow you'll just have a faster computer to do your suck work on...