No special event for this year?

[ThisBougieLife]

Yes that’s my theory on why. They came up with the best keyboard they could to fit the thinner chassis. The motivation for the butterfly keyboard was to create a thinner low-travel keyboard for the chassis. It unfortunately didn’t pan out (should add that my 2016 was fine for a couple years until I started getting repeating characters and I’ve since had it replaced).

 

[NJRonbo]

One saving grace that an MBP announcement is imminent is that a new AirPods announcement is also allegedly imminent.

 

[turbineseaplane]

One saving grace that an MBP announcement is imminent is that a new AirPods announcement is also allegedly imminent.

I’m excited for both - except - I don’t know if I’ll buy the new MacBook Pro but I do know I will buy the new AirPods (particularly with noise cancellation)

 

[Mainsail]

They haven't turned any corner. They've gone through 4 iterations of this keyboard in an attempt to make it work and all 4 have failed to address the core problems. This is without even mentioning the fact that it is miserable to type on, and actually feels as cheap as it is unreliable.

It is well known at this point that the 16" Pro is going to debut with a brand new keyboard, that uses a scissor-style mechanism. Apple's self-loathing over this problem that they needlessly created is probably extreme. This is an example of them trying to change something that didn't need changing, and failing at it. Failing publicly, miserably, and everyone has lost because of it. Apple has lost. Customers have lost. They accomplished nothing with the butterfly keyboard, other than a hard lesson on why you shouldn't over engineer simple things, or try to solve problems that don't need solving. Apple's arrogance is what led to them not only making it in the first place, but releasing 3 more iterations instead of admitting failure sooner.

Excellent. You have evidence that the 4th iteration 2019 keyboard has “failed” to solve the problem. I have been searching for this but unable to find it. Please provide supporting data, research, reviews, or reports. Whatever, to substantiate the claim that the 2019 keyboards are unreliable. I am genuinely interested.....

Remember, we are talking about the 2019 Keyboards, since we all agree the early iterations were crap. Let’s avoid the temptation of just repeating old news. Thanks.

 

[turbineseaplane]

@Mainsail

If they release a new laptop and it does not have a butterfly keyboard anymore, will you be happy with that as evidence?

 

[fokmik]

I'd argue that innovation in keyboards wasn't needed to "move forward in tech".

You're conflating progress overall with iterating to the point of disaster on a component that was already phenomenal.

Way too many people can get sucked into thinking "change" and "new" is "better".
Sometimes it is...for sure! -- But definitely not always.

The Butterfly keyboard never should have left their lab.

Remember, Apple tries LOADS of things we never even learn about (as do many companies).
They mistakenly went ahead with something that clearly didn't get tested nearly enough.

You didn’t get my point..i was talking in general..if the butterfly where very realible this topic was irrelevant...i remember even now how worse were the first samsung ssd and still...now we love the tech moves forwards...i love companies tries to move forward..look also at what samsung tries with samsung fold..i guess it should never left the factory like the butterfly keyboard and so much more..but its cheaper to test on customers money and not on company money..QA is becoming a thing of the past...testers are fired by dozens and so on

 

[turbineseaplane]

if the butterfly where very realible this topic was irrelevant

I understood what you meant but I disagree that the butterfly is a great keyboard and a step forward in progress/technology.

We have one around the house and I think it feels like garbage to type on and it’s loud and just totally lacks any feel if you are a skilled typist.

It is thinner and the keys are more stable corner to corner, which I never cared about before and still don’t, but other than that I hate the thing… All reliability concerns aside

 

[fokmik]

@Mainsail

If they release a new laptop and it does not have a butterfly keyboard anymore, will you be happy with that as evidence?

You know he is...
[automerge]1571951379[/automerge]

I understood what you meant but I disagree that the butterfly is a great keyboard and a step forward in progress/technology.

We have one around the house and I think it feels like garbage to type on and it’s loud and just totally lacks any feel if you are a skilled typist.

It is thinner and the keys are more stable corner to corner, which I never cared about before and still don’t, but other than that I hate the thing… All reliability concerns aside

If the future..is touch keyboard that can be whatever the user needs based on app and situation..then,this is was the first step for the consumer to fell almost like typing on the glass

 

[wallysb01]

Excellent. You have evidence that the 4th iteration 2019 keyboard has “failed” to solve the problem. I have been searching for this but unable to find it. Please provide supporting data, research, reviews, or reports. Whatever, to substantiate the claim that the 2019 keyboards are unreliable. I am genuinely interested.....

Remember, we are talking about the 2019 Keyboards, since we all agree the early iterations were crap. Let’s avoid the temptation of just repeating old news. Thanks.

You're being intentionally obtuse. This is the state of affairs.

The 2016-2018 butterfly mechanism keyboard has high failure rates.
From 2017-2019 Apple has attempted to make slight changes around the edges to improve the reliability of the keyboard.
Through the 2018 machine, those fixes largely didn't work.
The fundamental problem is that with this design its easy for small particles, like dust and crumbs, to get stuck in the under the key and prevent proper function (double taps or dead keys).
Apple has not fundamentally changed the mechanism in 2019, rather its changed the materials used. Those materials appear to be aimed at preventing those particles from getting stuck and maybe reducing some noise.
Many speculate the changes actually make it easier for Apple to replace the keyboards, not improve the reliability at all.
Apple has stated these changes will reduce failure rates, but they haven't said by how much nor how that's achieved.
The 2019 MacBook Pro began its life already on the repair program.
For new computers Apple is apparently moving away from the butterfly keyboard across the board.


So is this all proof positive that the 2019 keyboards will also have high failure rates? Of course not. But it does show that its very unlikely Apple fixed the problem. Much of the problem stems from the design itself, not the particulars of the materials used. Further, you are asking for what is impossible on a 3 month old computer. No one has data on failure rates at this point besides Apple and you should not use this absence of information as a reason to protest the change away from the current design. Apple is the one with the information and the one making the choices regarding the redesign, not you or me relying on publicly available information.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Just to add to the above excellent post, there was a lot of speculation that heat from the components below was causing an issue also and was part of the reason for a materials change.

This is why it’s been so difficult for them to fix I think.
It’s a multi faceted problem.

Again this was all of their own doing.
The clamoring for keyboard changes was nonexistent

 

[Mainsail]

You're being intentionally obtuse. This is the state of affairs.

The 2016-2018 butterfly mechanism keyboard has high failure rates.
From 2017-2019 Apple has attempted to make slight changes around the edges to improve the reliability of the keyboard.
Through the 2018 machine, those fixes largely didn't work.
The fundamental problem is that with this design its easy for small particles, like dust and crumbs, to get stuck in the under the key and prevent proper function (double taps or dead keys).
Apple has not fundamentally changed the mechanism in 2019, rather its changed the materials used. Those materials appear to be aimed at preventing those particles from getting stuck and maybe reducing some noise.
Many speculate the changes actually make it easier for Apple to replace the keyboards, not improve the reliability at all.
Apple has stated these changes will reduce failure rates, but they haven't said by how much nor how that's achieved.
The 2019 MacBook Pro began its life already on the repair program.
For new computers Apple is apparently moving away from the butterfly keyboard across the board.


So is this all proof positive that the 2019 keyboards will also have high failure rates? Of course not. But it does show that its very unlikely Apple fixed the problem. Much of the problem stems from the design itself, not the particulars of the materials used. Further, you are asking for what is impossible on a 3 month old computer. No one has data on failure rates at this point besides Apple and you should not use this absence of information as a reason to protest the change away from the current design. Apple is the one with the information and the one making the choices regarding the redesign, not you or me relying on publicly available information.

Got it.
So, no data, but in fairness I did not expect it for just the reason you mentioned.
No examples of 2019 failures.
No reports of 2019 failures.
No reviews highlighting unusual numbers of failures.
No evidence of any kind.
BTW - I am not saying the 2019 keyboard is perfect. Every keyboard is going to have a statistical number of failures.

There were plenty of examples, reports and reviews that highlighted failures of the older keyboards. Plenty of Youtube videos. Lots of evidence after 3 or 4 months in the wild that this thing was not right. But, for the 2019 Keyboard, it seems very sparse. So, again, is it possible that you are just playing an old tape when you say the current keyboard is a failure? Is it possible you are making assumptions without supporting information?

Honestly, I purchased the 2019 MBA and took a chance. I felt like the new keyboard plus the 4 year warranty were sufficient coverage. But, I recognize that I want it to be all right, so I am trying to check facts against my bias. If I am being obtuse because of my bias, perhaps you are rushing to judgement with foundation or support. It might be time to update your database. The internet is full of echo chambers that support preconceived notions without adequate evidence.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Honestly, I purchased the 2019 MBA and took a chance. I felt like the new keyboard plus the 4 year warranty were sufficient coverage

Good!
Glad you’re happy with your purchase..

Can we move on now?

 

[wallysb01]

Mainsail, continues his ways....

No evidence of any kind.

That's a flat out lie. You just aren't paying attention enough:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/cc9y14

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/cpq0ky

But does that mean there are more problems than any other non-butterfly keyboard, who knows? Anecdotes aren't don't replace systematically gathered data and rigorous analysis. Anecdotally, it seems like less problems are being had, few enough to stay off the front pages of places like this site anyway, but some are still there.

So, again, is it possible that you are just playing an old tape when you say the current keyboard is a failure? Is it possible you are making assumptions without supporting information?

Bolder sized nuance is lost on you, huh? When did I say anything was a failure? What assumptions am I making? That a bad design might just still be bad whether it uses clear plastic or semi-transparent vinyl?

Honestly, I purchased the 2019 MBA and took a chance. I felt like the new keyboard plus the 4 year warranty were sufficient coverage. But, I recognize that I want it to be all right, so I am trying to check facts against my bias. If I am being obtuse because of my bias, perhaps you are rushing to judgement with foundation or support. It might be time to update your database. The internet is full of echo chambers that support preconceived notions without adequate evidence.

Check your own bias for sure. A lack of some headline stat on failure rates 3-4 months out is hardly proof of things being OK with the 2019 version of the butterfly keyboard. Given all the history of this, and despite any fixes Apple has offered, its absolutely prudent to be cautious of this design. That viewpoint alone means Apple needs to consider a move away from the butterflies.

 

[loybond]

Right, so it's Oct 24 and every single person on the Internet (ever) is reporting that Airpods are dropping soon. Shenanigans?

 

[BootLoxes]

New apple tv please 🥺

 

[Mainsail]

Mainsail, continues his ways....




That's a flat out lie. You just aren't paying attention enough:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/cc9y14

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/cpq0ky

But does that mean there are more problems than any other non-butterfly keyboard, who knows? Anecdotes aren't don't replace systematically gathered data and rigorous analysis. Anecdotally, it seems like less problems are being had, few enough to stay off the front pages of places like this site anyway, but some are still there.



Bolder sized nuance is lost on you, huh? When did I say anything was a failure? What assumptions am I making? That a bad design might just still be bad whether it uses clear plastic or semi-transparent vinyl?



Check your own bias for sure. A lack of some headline stat on failure rates 3-4 months out is hardly proof of things being OK with the 2019 version of the butterfly keyboard. Given all the history of this, and despite any fixes Apple has offered, its absolutely prudent to be cautious of this design. That viewpoint alone means Apple needs to consider a move away from the butterflies.

I have acknowledged the the new keyboard isn't perfect. But, I see no evidence that the 2019 keyboard has unusually high failure rates. As I said, there will be some failures for any keyboard. If there are complaints, they seem rare. Your link does not seem like an overwhelming response to someone searching for problems. There are nothing like the number of complaints they had with the previous iterations.

Honestly, I am open to the possibility that Apple still has a serious problem with these keyboards, but I am just not seeing much evidence of it. You can have the last word.

 

[kp98077]

its discouraging how long it is taking...

 

[wallysb01]

I have acknowledged the the new keyboard isn't perfect. But, I see no evidence that the 2019 keyboard has unusually high failure rates. As I said, there will be some failures for any keyboard. If there are complaints, they seem rare. Your link does not seem like an overwhelming response to someone searching for problems. There are nothing like the number of complaints they had with the previous iterations.

Honestly, I am open to the possibility that Apple still has a serious problem with these keyboards, but I am just not seeing much evidence of it. You can have the last word.

wee, I get the last word....

 

[Erehy Dobon]

.

 

[seeforyourself]

A live media event is not required to announce new product.

I know they've quietly updated products, but for this it would be a complete redesign of the keyboard. If this is going to 16" I'm sure this will be considered a major update. I think Apple always does a event for the major updates/redesigns.

 

[ThisBougieLife]

Yeah, an internal update may be announced via press release, but a new product entirely seems to require an event based on previous years of evidence. So if there's no event, look to 2020...

 

[richinaus]

Yeah, an internal update may be announced via press release, but a new product entirely seems to require an event based on previous years of evidence. So if there's no event, look to 2020...

Or look elsewhere

 

[Lakersfan74]

Im expecting a press release not much else. New keyboard, more power and thinner bezels. I don’t see the logo, ports, trackpad or anything else changing. Maybe more thunder port 3 ports but nothing new. The current model hasn’t even been out 4 years. What month did the current form factor come out?

 

[Octopuss]

Please let it be "special event" fully dedicated (2 or 3 hours) to new emojiis with "one more thing": (PRODUCT)RED for something, maybe left AirPod.

 

[waquzy]

Im expecting a press release not much else. New keyboard, more power and thinner bezels. I don’t see the logo, ports, trackpad or anything else changing. Maybe more thunder port 3 ports but nothing new. The current model hasn’t even been out 4 years. What month did the current form factor come out?

October/November 2016