Nvidia on Its Lack of macOS Mojave Drivers for Newer Graphics Cards: 'It's Up to Apple to Approve Them'

[tanner0101]

It doesn't make any sense that Apple would be delaying this. It seems far more likely that NVIDIA is having difficulty updating their drivers to meet the new Metal requirements in 10.14.

DM me if you're interesting in buying my GTX 1080 MSI. No joke. I'm switching to AMD, this is ridiculous.

 

[ikir]

I think most would agree Nvidia are the go-to for premium, high-end, high-quality cards. AMD is great for mid-range and budget. You would think that Apple, a premium brand, would use or at least support the more high-end cards.

Totally untrue. Vega FE and WX are incredible GPU for work (and game too)

 

[ApfelKuchen]

Could you expand on this? Because my understanding is this also applies to the new macs that were just announced. Anyone with a thunderbolt 3 Mac can’t run the newest OS and last years or newer GPUs. It’s actually a concern for me as I am looking to pair a new Mac mini with a 1080 ti I already own.

Ok, I forgot about that factor. It definitely expands the number of affected users. However, for both Nvidia and Apple, there are higher priorities. Even if Apple had standardized on Nvidia instead of AMD, Windows users would have to be a priority for Nvidia, and Apple would likely take a distant second place when Nvidia was prioritizing development efforts.

I understand the enthusiasm to have the newest gear to be compatible as soon as possible. What I don't understand is how this rises to the level of criminal conspiracy.

 

[podycust]

Since the only Macs this applies to are pre-2013 Mac Pros more than 5 years past date of manufacture, just how high a priority should Apple place on approving the drivers?

If it's purely a matter of driver approval, we could also ask Nvidia when they submitted their drivers for approval. It may be that they submitted them quite a while ago during the Mojave beta, but it could also be that they just shipped them to Apple yesterday.

Mojave has been in public release for a little more than a month. Meantime, the current lack of compatibility is a known issue, not, as Forbes might say, a "nasty surprise." Over the decades, I can recall instances where users of specific cards or apps had to wait six months or more to get the updates they needed in order to upgrade their OS (Windows or Mac). Certainly pro users are familiar with this phenomenon.

Forbes say that about every since apple software update be than iOS or MacOS so I've stopped wasting my time with them!

 

[Tapiture]

Totally untrue. Vega FE and WX are incredible GPU for work (and game too)

I knew people would disagree but in my opinion and for my uses Nvidia are better and I find them to be higher quality.

 

[4jasontv]

Ok, I forgot about that factor. It definitely expands the number of affected users. However, for both Nvidia and Apple, there are higher priorities. Even if Apple had standardized on Nvidia instead of AMD, Windows users would have to be a priority for Nvidia, and Apple would likely take a distant second place when Nvidia was prioritizing development efforts.

I understand the enthusiasm to have the newest gear to be compatible as soon as possible. What I don't understand is how this rises to the level of criminal conspiracy.

I don’t see a criminal conspiracy, but I do see an issue with the attitude that it isn’t their responsibility to make sure it works. They should take ownership of the fact that it doesn’t work. If they are waiting for Apple just say we submitted X to Apple on this day and expect then to roll it out by Y date. I expect a developer to be 100% aware of the situation and be eager to take the blame because it means they still have their customers attention.

 

[MrGIS]

I've been a Hackintosher for a little over 2 years now, and I've always had to wait a relatively short period of time for Nvidia drivers to get released after each update. It was a minor annoyance as I was willing to wait to the masses to test out Apple updates first. This Mojave delay however was enough for me to elect to switch to AMD graphics. I ran out during lunch today and picked up a RX 580. Its too bad Apple and Nvidia can't sort this out.

 

[macduke]

Good to see Apple supporting the pro community. /s

 

[MacWorld78]

I think add-on Nvidia graphics card will make the Apple computer even more pricey.

 

[nbritton]

Patiently waiting, I would like to buy an RTX for my cMP because it has boot screen support. I currently have a modified GTX 980. Do any of the RX 580 have EFI UGA boot screen support? Stuck on 10.13 until something changes.

 

[bsbeamer]

Unfortunately, there are not even updated drivers available for 10.13.6 build 17G3025 for the newly released security update. NVIDIA has posted Sierra drivers for that 10.12.6 build 16G1618 update.

Holding on upgrading to Mojave is one thing, but holding on keeping older OS versions up to date is another entirely.

To update this post: the latest High Sierra update 10.13.6 build 17G3025 will work with GPU Driver Version 387.10.10.15.15.108, but that version has been pulled by NVIDIA... See the sticky NVIDIA FAQ in Mac Pro forum for more info.

 

[jicon]

i think unless there is money involved, apple is gonna take its time to approve any nvidia drivers

I would think it would be the other way around if Apple needed to pay NVidia for anything.

Different circumstances, but the original mac Mini had an ATI 9200 card. DVI output was... horrible. Allegedly fixed in a firmware update. ATI explained to me that the Mac version had certain features on the cards disabled, thus custom firmware would be required (I could only assume features were disabled to keep cost and heat dissipation lower). Apple would need to pay some sort of fee for the new firmware at the very least.

External cards just needing drivers perhaps go by other business deals I clearly have no background on, but I have a tough time believing this is a fault of NVidia's.

 

[Haswell]

For hackintosh users, simply use the iGPU for macOS and the Nvidia dGPU for Windows!

 

[baryon]

Well at least there's a huge range of graphics cards to choose from for Mac users. For example, there's... uhh... the...

Does Apple even know what a graphics card is for? None of the computers announced just days ago even have a graphics card.

And when it comes to the performance of your computer when doing graphics related tasks, such as pretty much everything nowadays, the graphics card is pretty much the only thing that matters. You could have a 2009 Mac Pro with a super fast graphics card and it will easily beat any Mac released since. All the new CPUs and any amounts of RAM can go and hide in the corner in comparison.

I don't know why Apple doesn't give a damn about this amazing technology that could be modular, upgradable, and could allow Macs to do things that modern computers are meant to do, and could allow people to keep their 3-5 year old computer for another 3 years instead of having to buy a new one. Oh wait.

 

[Feenician]

I'm having trouble understanding this but I'm not really familiar with the topic. If Nvidia are a registered developer who can sign kexts and release their drivers on their own website, what is it that Apple need to approve here?

 

[esatamacmodular]

good opportunity to vote with your dollars people.. wait I already spent it all on apple and Nvidia... crap. Make those damn drivers!

 

[zorinlynx]

I am completely unsurprised by this.

Historically, MacOS has not supported Nvidia as well as AMD chipsets. Even going all the way back to 2008 or so I remember performance being better on AMD-based Macs, with Nvidia-based Macs having stuttering and graphics glitches.

I swore off ever buying an Nvidia-based Mac again at one point, and have been happy ever since with the GPU performance on my Macs.

I think Apple has finally realized this and is abandoning the Nvidia GPU platform. This is perfectly okay with me as AMD Radeon and even the newer generation Intel chipsets perform plenty well for my needs.

 

[bsbeamer]

I'm having trouble understanding this but I'm not really familiar with the topic. If Nvidia are a registered developer who can sign kexts and release their drivers on their own website, what is it that Apple need to approve here?

Argument is that for a GPU there is tighter integration into the OS and particular portions of the OS that need to be "opened up" to the developer making the drivers. Apparently this WAS available for 10.13.X and prior, but was never made available during 10.14 beta and still not available (correctly?) during public release.

Truly believe this mostly because of Apple giving a big middle finger to everything but Metal in Mojave. Depreciating OpenCL/GL does not help the situation. NVIDIA supports Metal, but the GTX series are not "GPUFamily2" capable/approved/sanctioned. The GTX 680 has drivers built into the OS, but you still need to install web drivers to use CUDA. There is reason to believe the RTX series would be "GPUFamily2", but without drivers baked into the OS or released as a post-install (NVIDIA Web Drivers) it would be impossible to confirm and impossible to use an RTX GPU in Mojave properly.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/metal/mtlfeatureset
https://developer.apple.com/metal/Metal-Feature-Set-Tables.pdf

 

[bmot]

Apple's customers are not angry. Apple targets teenagers and college students spending their parents money to look fashionable with Apple devices. These customers don't even know what a GPU is.

Apple is starting to stir in this subject area because of VR and ML. But Apple really does not care, and those of us in the know, know that Apple does not care. So Apple will do just enough to be able to make some marketing statements that will fool most people into thinking that Apple cares about leading edge graphics and computer performance. But its just a smoke screen to get the Apple aficionados to ignore the obvious.

I get your point but you are mixing stuff up a bit. Affected are people who spent a lot of money for their Mac hardware. Mac Pro users and those who purchased an external graphic card. At least the majority of those users are pro users who work with their hardware rather than college students as you mentioned. And i can very well imagine that a lot of them will get very angry if their expensive devices suddenly run poorly due to a software issue that can be addressed to Apple. If Apple wouldn't care about those users there wouldn't be another Mac Pro or IMac Pro.

 

[vailr]

Questions:
1. Exactly what is different with NVidia RTX card's firmware, that they now support the macOS boot screen?
And could an older NVidia card's firmware be flash upgraded to support the boot screen feature?
2. How is macOS so different from Windows, that one Windows NVidia driver can function for many multiple Windows build versions, while a completely new driver version is required for each incremental build version of macOS?

 

[spezaled]

Yea...I had a mid 2010 Mac Pro (with an updated processor) and the newest 1080Ti card but I got tired of waiting on the driver update with every MacOS update....plus my system was not Mojave compliant which was definitely disappointing on Apple's part ...so I just got rid of the entire system and sold the card separately. I upgraded to an iMac Pro and now those issues are long gone. Who knows who's truly to blame, Apple or Nvidia, but I got tired of the whole process.

 

[wjdavis]

I don't know who is to blame for this--speculation seems pretty rife and harshly critical on Nvidia's forum--but I do appreciate MacRumors shining a light on this issue. It seems like a disagreement that impacts a great many people, myself included.

 

[bsbeamer]

Questions:
1. Exactly what is different with NVidia RTX card's firmware, that they now support the macOS boot screen?
And could an older NVidia card's firmware be flash upgraded to support the boot screen feature?
2. How is macOS so different from Windows, that one Windows NVidia driver can function for many multiple Windows build versions, while a completely new driver version is required for each incremental build version of macOS?

Go to the Mac Pro forum for most of your Question #1 answers. There are pages of threads discussing this, including this post:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/rtx-series-cards-have-native-bootscreen-support.2148023/

#2 is apparently why this is an issue right now - Apple needs to sign/bless the drivers. It apparently is the way macOS is designed. I am not a GPU developer so I cannot 100% confirm this, but you do need access to parts of the OS that most "average" software developers do not receive openly.

Adobe has formed a tighter relationship with Apple in the past few years in part because of developing for Metal. They'll say they've been working together for 30 years or something, but it wasn't always such a rosy externally facing relationship. Apple also realizes they sort of need that customer base who are using those products. Adobe needed early access to certain products to develop their software (such as Photoshop for iPad) and Apple wants that software to be available and work great at release for the new product.

NVIDIA does not have this relationship. In this "space" they sell hardware. They are also developers and competitors to Apple at many other levels. It's much closer to the Samsung/Apple relationship.

Rumors have been swirling that AMD's contract was an exclusive with Apple and it ends in December 2018. Those same people blame the Mac Pro delay on this contract. Some of those people say the 387.10.10.15.15.108 web driver (which added VOLTA support) was pulled by NVIDIA because of Apple threatening to pull their contract for 2019. It's all speculation, but in between all of this there has to be bits and pieces of truth. Only time will tell...

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

Baffles me a company so fond and proud of superior design and performance continues to shun Nvidia in their products.

This is probably the single biggest FUBAR in the tech world ever.

 

[onigami]

Rumors have been swirling that AMD's contract was an exclusive with Apple and it ends in December 2018. Those same people blame the Mac Pro delay on this contract. Some of those people say the 387.10.10.15.15.108 web driver (which added VOLTA support) was pulled by NVIDIA because of Apple threatening to pull their contract for 2019. It's all speculation, but in between all of this there has to be bits and pieces of truth. Only time will tell...

You're onto something here. What's important to note is AMD lacks the infrastructure and capital at this time to develop both its CPU and GPU division at the same time. This is known throughout the tech world. Consequently, that's the reason why AMD is boasting success with Ryzen while struggling with Vega.

That said, I've heard stories on the AMD side of the situation that much of their development of late regarding Vega was mostly centered on either Macs or video game consoles (i.e., Xbox One and PS4). That may be the reason why Vega runs meh on DirectX, but extremely well on Metal. So there's something to it...