Nvidia on Its Lack of macOS Mojave Drivers for Newer Graphics Cards: 'It's Up to Apple to Approve Them'

[MacBH928]

I don't know if you where being sarcastic or joking, but I'll bite.

If you want a 'plug-n-play' experience you need something to plugin. Such a plugin is called a 'driver'. In this case the plugin (or driver) provides the gateway and communication between the OS and the graphics card.
In short: There is no plug-n-play possible without drivers, be it on Windows, Mac or any other OS.

My point is why can't we have technology without the drivers, or at least the consumer will not be aware about whats going on behind the scenes. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but if I insert a USB stick I don't need drivers it just works. Why can't everything else be like that.

 

[pastrychef]

Even though I don't believe that Apple is refusing to sign Mojave drivers at all, let's pretend for a second that it's true...

This statement implies that they have Mojave drivers ready and they are not releasing them because of Apple.

Why not release unsigned drivers and let the users choose whether they want to disable SIP? This also means that they are choosing to screw over all the Nvidia users who are stuck waiting for their drivers. Put a disclaimer that they are not responsible for whatever consequences may arise from disabling SIP and be done with it.

I've used unsigned drivers from SolarFlare. They make the unsigned drivers freely available on their website for users to download. There's nothing wrong with that. Keep in mind that SolarFlare sells enterprise level equipment and felt that unsigned drivers were safe to release.

Source: https://support.solarflare.com/index.php/component/cognidox/?view=categories&id=1795


It's obvious they are not holding back drivers because of business politics or they would not publicly try and divert blame to Apple for this fiasco and point complaining users to Apple. Bottom line, Apple can't stop Nvidia from releasing drivers, only Nvidia can stop Nvidia from releasing drivers.

 

[Irishman]

This is a huge problem. AMD GPUs are mostly useless when it comes to certain tasks like AI (keras/tensorflow/etc.). Many professional tools only work with CUDA & nvidia cards (for instance: vray). I remember being able to build and run pgstrom experiments on my mac with GTX cards 2 years ago.

I understand that Apple is pushing their own commercial APIs, but I doubt the scientific community will ever adopt them.

Apple's move toward opening up its graphics subsystems to third party standards - based on my experience - began back in 1995 when it trashed its own proprietary Quickdraw GX (which I had my experience with in printing in OS 8 and 9 back in the day), in favor of Postscript, the industry standard. Then, they moved to OpenGL, ditching their own Quickdraw 3D when OS X came out, so from my perspective, they've been moving in the right direction, as far as opening that up goes. When Metal was announced, me and my Mac friends worried to ourselves if this was going to be another boondoggle like QD3D. I'm just a MacOS user, not a programmer, so that's my perspective. So, I can't say if the under the hood changes in Metal and Metal 2 are improvements or not. I've noticed that Fortnite plays much better now (and I find myself having to bootcamp into Win10 far less now because the performance delta between Win10 and macOS are nearly neglible on my late 2012 21.5" iMac). It seems like Apple only does something proprietary these days when there's some level of control they can't get out of a hardware or software partner - brewing their own Metal instead of going with Vulkan, developing in-house processors as a fall-back plan in case Intel can't break through their problems in shrinking their chip fabs.

My 3D creation app of choice is Blender 3D (open-source), which, unlike vray, supports hardware acceleration under both OpenCL and CUDA.

 

[enigmasi]

My point is why can't we have technology without the drivers, or at least the consumer will not be aware about whats going on behind the scenes. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but if I insert a USB stick I don't need drivers it just works. Why can't everything else be like that.

you insert a USB stick and it works, because your computer has drivers for it since Windows XP SP2

 

[bsbeamer]

View attachment 800878
Source: https://support.solarflare.com/index.php/component/cognidox/?view=categories&id=1795

Your same screenshot shows the macOS/OSX 10.9 driver as SIGNED. Mavericks was the first macOS release to include the SECURITY & PRIVACY panel in System Preferences, so these operate exactly the same as NVIDIA Web Drivers in terms of driver signing for the updated Gatekeeper functionality.

 

[pastrychef]

Your same screenshot shows the macOS/OSX 10.9 driver as SIGNED. Mavericks was the first macOS release to include the SECURITY & PRIVACY panel in System Preferences, so these operate exactly the same as NVIDIA Web Drivers in terms of driver signing for the updated Gatekeeper functionality.

So what's stopping them from releasing unsigned drivers? Why are they screwing Nvidia users? Let us decide if we want to disable SIP or not.

 

[toleda]

Ummm... Eyefinity is a Windows-only feature for AMD cards. Nvidia has a similar feature they call Vision Surround, which is also not supported in MacOS. The same is true for Crossfire (AMD) or SLI (Nvidia) under MacOS.

Macs don't have a gimmicky name for displaying multiple monitors. I think they just call it "Yeah, you can connect up to 3 monitors on the Mac Pro 5,1 with HD 5770; Or, 6 monitors if you have a second HD 5770."

Eyefinity is not Windows only. It is any AMD HD 5xxx and newer graphics card with six DP ports, fully supported with macOS. Crossfire and SLI have nothing to do with Eyefinity. HD5770 is not Eyefinity.

Apple has only one choice for Pro graphics. No Nvidia graphics card offers these capabilities:
iMac Pro (2017): Connect multiple displays to your iMac Pro - Apple Support

MacBook Pro (2018, 15": MacBook Pro - Technical Specifications - Apple

 

[bsbeamer]

So what's stopping them from releasing unsigned drivers? Why are they screwing Nvidia users? Let us decide if we want to disable SIP or not.

Apple’s Gatekeeper is what is stopping this. The OS requires signed drivers for nearly all macOS versions that are active today. The screenshot shown only provides unsigned drivers for pre-10.8 OS versions. Signed NVIDIA Web Drivers are available for every OS version from 10.8.3-10.13.6.

NVIDIA does provide 10.13 drivers, which is still being supported by Apple. Stick with High Sierra if you need NVIDIA web drivers. Another version for the latest security update was just released yesterday.

IF NVIDIA is ever going to release official Apple sanctioned products in the future, or Apple will include NVIDIA products in their releases, they need to remain in the Developer ID program. Releasing products circumventing the program is likely against the rules or contract. As many have said for awhile, wait until more is known about MacPro7,1 - that should clarify a lot. Would assume we’ll know something by April 2019.

 

[pastrychef]

Apple’s Gatekeeper is what is stopping this. The OS requires signed drivers for nearly all macOS versions that are active today. The screenshot shown only provides unsigned drivers for pre-10.8 OS versions. Signed NVIDIA Web Drivers are available for every OS version from 10.8.3-10.13.6.

NVIDIA does provide 10.13 drivers, which is still being supported by Apple. Stick with High Sierra if you need NVIDIA web drivers. Another version for the latest security update was just released yesterday.

IF NVIDIA is ever going to release official Apple sanctioned products in the future, or Apple will include NVIDIA products in their releases, they need to remain in the Developer ID program. Releasing products circumventing the program is likely against the rules or contract. As many have said for awhile, wait until more is known about MacPro7,1 - that should clarify a lot. Would assume we’ll know something by April 2019.

Lmao. April 2019?? By then, Mojave drivers will be nearly irrelevant and users will need drivers for macOS 10.15.0 beta.

If drivers are ready and it truly is just a matter of getting them signed, which is just speculation, then Nvidia owes it to their customers to release unsigned drivers. Disabling SIP is just a reboot in to recovery mode away.

Nvidia needs to (1) clarify what the hell they mean in their message and (2) get the drivers out to users one way or another. Short cryptic half hearted answers will only increase speculation and confusion. Blaming another company for their problems and pointing users to complain somewhere else is absolutely irresponsible and unprofessional.

 

[namethisfile]

Eyefinity is not Windows only. It is any AMD HD 5xxx and newer graphics card with six DP ports, fully supported with macOS. Crossfire and SLI have nothing to do with Eyefinity. HD5770 is not Eyefinity.

Apple has only one choice for Pro graphics. No Nvidia graphics card offers these capabilities:
iMac Pro (2017): Connect multiple displays to your iMac Pro - Apple Support
View attachment 800988
MacBook Pro (2018, 15": MacBook Pro - Technical Specifications - Apple
View attachment 800986

WTF? I didn't say Crossfire and SLI were Eyefinity.

WTF?

I used Crossfire and SLI as examples of features that are available on Windows or under Bootcamp.

And, even though, "Eyefinity" is not just available on Windows, it is essentially "restricted" to Windows because one needs AMD's Catalyst Driver (under Windows) to enable or disable Eyefinity, which is a way for a game to span across multiple monitors for, in say, a triple-monitor gaming setup.

Under MacOS or OSX (prior) there is no "Eyefinity" because 1) There is no AMD Catalyst Software; 2) Spanning across multiple displays or desktops are managed in Mission Control and Spaces under Macs.

And, again WTF?

I didn't say HD5770 is Eyefinity.

What...

the...

... fock....

 

[Irishman]

you insert a USB stick and it works, because your computer has drivers for it since Windows XP SP2

That's true. Also, when you buy a USB stick that's say, 8 GB, a meager amount of that storage space is taken up by pre-loaded formatting. Plug and play comes at a price.
[doublepost=1541283981][/doublepost]

Apple’s Gatekeeper is what is stopping this. The OS requires signed drivers for nearly all macOS versions that are active today. The screenshot shown only provides unsigned drivers for pre-10.8 OS versions. Signed NVIDIA Web Drivers are available for every OS version from 10.8.3-10.13.6.

NVIDIA does provide 10.13 drivers, which is still being supported by Apple. Stick with High Sierra if you need NVIDIA web drivers. Another version for the latest security update was just released yesterday.

IF NVIDIA is ever going to release official Apple sanctioned products in the future, or Apple will include NVIDIA products in their releases, they need to remain in the Developer ID program. Releasing products circumventing the program is likely against the rules or contract. As many have said for awhile, wait until more is known about MacPro7,1 - that should clarify a lot. Would assume we’ll know something by April 2019.

I'm wondering if changes were made to Gatekeeper in Mojave, because Gatekeepers been in macOS for several revisions now, but yet the web drivers just aren't aren't available for download in Mojave. That's why I'm dubious that it's a Gatekeeper problem. My suspicion is that it's a money problem.

 

[Jack Burton]

My 3D creation app of choice is Blender 3D (open-source), which, unlike vray, supports hardware acceleration under both OpenCL and CUDA.

How do you feel about Blender Cycles having limited AMD support on Mac because open cl is behind and no longer being developed? Or the fact that Blender’s impressive new Eevee render engine is based off of Open GL?

On the Blender mailing list, Ton had this to say about Apples Metal decision and how it affects Blender:

My opinion: MacOS has not been a good choice for 3D artists for at least 5 years already. Artists didn’t have choice of GPUs. Support for CUDA, OpenGL and OpenCL was always behind. We never really had Cycles GPU render perform good on a Mac system either.

Looks like Apple is heading in a different direction with their OS. Probably merging it with iOS…

Meanwhile we can keep supporting it, but this support will then be for a dying platform - like back then for SGI Irix, Sun Solaris and BeOS.

 

[simweb]

Exactly.
I have a Mac Pro 5.1 - 12 core doing graphics design (Adobe CC).
I spend what is equivalent to 1070 US dollars for my
PNY NVIDIA Quadro 4000 for Mac graphics card I bought in 2011.
Only because of the Adobe and NVIDIA coorporation with the
Adobe Premiere Pro Mercury Playback Engine GPU hardware acceleration feature via NVIDIA CUDA technology.
The Quadro 4000 card has worked perfectly in Adobe Premiere Pro CC ever since.
Although after every macOS upgrade, NVIDIA had a small week to produce new GPU and CUDA drivers.
Like they did not ever do any development testing in the macOS Update Beta program.
Anyways, with the introduction of Apple macOS Mojave,
NVIDIA decided to not support my Quadro 4000 graphics card any longer.
So the "high-end professional" card that it was in 2011,is now worthless thanks alone to NVIDIA greedy fools.
So I am waiting for my new graphics card, that I ordered tree days ago,
one that Apple recommended for Mojave for the Mac Pro 5.1.
The Sapphire Radeon PULSE RX580 with 8 GB ram. Cost equivalent to 360 US dollars.
And then NEVER NEVER AGAIN ANYTHING NVIDIA CRAP!
As far as I am concerned, NVIDIA can go bankrupt, I don't care.

Peace and Love.

========

I recommend Mac Pro 5.1 (2010-2012) owners
to go AMD Radeon GPU from now on as APPLE recommends here:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208898

========

Here is a guide how to UNINSTALL nvidia GPU Web Driver and nvidia CUDA driver in macOS:

https://www.travelertechie.com/2018/10/how-to-uninstall-cuda-drivers-from-macos.html

========

Here under is the reply I got from NVIDIA the 3rd October 2018:

=

Response By Email (M...) (10/03/2018 01:43 PM)
Hi,

Your issue was just referred to me.

The official statement from the CUDA team is here:
https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/...tup-and-installation/cuda-10-and-macos-10-14/

Unfortunately, there will be no CUDA support for Quadro 4000 because NVIDIA
has dropped Fermi support for all platforms as of R396 drivers.
In order to continue using CUDA on a Quadro 4000,
you will need to stay on CUDA 9.2 and not upgrade to CUDA 10.

Legacy CUDA downloads are here:
https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-toolkit-archive

Let me know if any more questions.
Best regards,

M...
NVIDIA Customer Care

 

[sbarton]

Wow you went from 7 years of "worked perfectly" to "NEVER AGAIN ANYTHING NVIDIA CRAP" in like 1 paragraph.

 

[Loc89]

How can the customers within the community put pressure on Apple to fix this problem?
Any ideas?

We should unite and make this demand, because it is an issue which can be resolved easily if these two companies would cooperate properly and stop blaming each other. This kind of issue should of been a priority for Apple but it seems lately they only care about how to market old products with new features just for the sake of increasing their sales.

 

[bsbeamer]

May be best to just wait until more is known about MP7,1 or until January 2019 after the supposed AMD exclusive contract ends. Should at least have clarity by then. Personally prefer waiting until .3 or .4 OS updates anyway, when possible. At least most kinks will be worked out.

 

[Tech198]

But what it Apple are right, and nVida are the ones holding them back? ... Oh right, no manufacture than the machines we use, can do that

Works both ways.... Nvidia can be just as strong., There could be a reason why Nvida may not release them as well. It's not all Apple here. But it also could be just Apple's fault as well.

 

[Tech198]

My point is why can't we have technology without the drivers, or at least the consumer will not be aware about whats going on behind the scenes. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but if I insert a USB stick I don't need drivers it just works. Why can't everything else be like that.

Windows has 'USB mass storage' driver to talk to... Apple has Kect. It's easier It would be less troubleshooting. But if their was no drivers, we'd all be reinstalling the OS more and more for 'simple' fixes.

 

[MacBH928]

Windows has 'USB mass storage' driver to talk to... Apple has Kect. It's easier It would be less troubleshooting. But if their was no drivers, we'd all be reinstalling the OS more and more for 'simple' fixes.

I was hoping for a new technology where we don't need to install drivers in the first place. Think like Wifi where we don't need wires to connect to the internet anymore.

 

[navaira]

Think like Wifi where we don't need wires to connect to the internet anymore.

(Psssst. In order to work, wifi cards require drivers.)

 

[Unami]

It's all about control. AMD plays ball with Apple and Nvidia does not. I'm not blaming Nvidia but Apple requires more control than Nvidia is willing to offer. Both are making understandable business decisions.

this. I heard similar storeis.

 

[simweb]

Wow you went from 7 years of "worked perfectly" to "NEVER AGAIN ANYTHING NVIDIA CRAP" in like 1 paragraph.

that's correct pal. great observed.

 

[Irishman]

But what it Apple are right, and nVida are the ones holding them back? ... Oh right, no manufacture than the machines we use, can do that

Works both ways.... Nvidia can be just as strong., There could be a reason why Nvida may not release them as well. It's not all Apple here. But it also could be just Apple's fault as well.

I'm thinking that they're arguing over money. There are two major GPU makers in the PC/Mac market, and neither Apple nor Nvidia can afford to permanently piss off the other, otherwise they'd be losing out on an increasing-by-the-day amount of money. I'm sure that both companies have rooms full of beancounters running the numbers and advising the Chiefs that "we can afford this for x more weeks or months, and then we're not only missing out on current business but future business as well". I'm sure ether that AMD is loving it though.

 

[AnonMac50]

Exactly.
Here in Denmark. I have a Mac Pro 5.1 - 12 core doing graphics design (Adobe CC).
I spend what is equivalent to 1070 US dollars for my
PNY NVIDIA Quadro 4000 for Mac graphics card I bought in 2011.
Only because of the Adobe and NVIDIA coorporation with the
Adobe Premiere Pro Mercury Playback Engine GPU hardware acceleration feature via NVIDIA CUDA technology.
The Quadro 4000 card has worked perfectly in Adobe Premiere Pro CC ever since.
Although after every macOS upgrade, NVIDIA had a small week to produce new GPU and CUDA drivers.
Like they did not ever do any development testing in the macOS Update Beta program.
Anyways, with the introduction of Apple macOS Mojave,
NVIDIA decided to not support my Quadro 4000 graphics card any longer.
So the "high-end professional" card that it was in 2011,is now worthless thanks alone to NVIDIA greedy fools.
So I am waiting for my new graphics card, that I ordered tree days ago,
one that Apple recommended for Mojave for the Mac Pro 5.1.
The Sapphire Radeon PULSE RX580 with 8 GB ram. Cost equivalent to 360 US dollars.
And then NEVER AGAIN ANYTHING NVIDIA CRAP!
As far as I am concerned, NVIDIA can go bankrupt, I don't care.
I recommend macOS owners to go Radeon GPU from now on.

Peace and Love.

========

Here under is the reply I got from NVIDIA the 3rd October 2018:

========

Response By Email (M...) (10/03/2018 01:43 PM)
Hi,

Your issue was just referred to me.

The official statement from the CUDA team is here:
https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/...tup-and-installation/cuda-10-and-macos-10-14/

Unfortunately, there will be no CUDA support for Quadro 4000 because NVIDIA
has dropped Fermi support for all platforms as of R396 drivers.
In order to continue using CUDA on a Quadro 4000,
you will need to stay on CUDA 9.2 and not upgrade to CUDA 10.

Legacy CUDA downloads are here:
https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-toolkit-archive

Let me know if any more questions.
Best regards,

M...
NVIDIA Customer Care

I understand what you mean, I actually have a Quadro 4000 myself, and while it annoys me too, I don’t think dropping it was so much up to Nvidia as much as it was up to Apple. In Mojave, any graphics chip that doesn’t support Metal is not supported, be it Nvidia, AMD/ATI, or even Intel. There are ways to get the card to run on Mojave I believe, but it would have the same issues that other non-supported GPUs have. CUDA support probably won’t be there though, as it’s not available yet for any Nvidia cars, supported or not.

 

[jonahlee]

Most unfortunately I am starting to think that all the talk of the AMD exclusive is people grasping at straws. I think Apple is done with NVIDIA, and going to work with AMD who are more willing to make cards directly for them. And I am thinking the next Mac Pro is going to be Modular in that it can use Thunderbolt for expansion and maybe let you change out your ram. I just don't think Apple ever wants to make another computer like the MacPro that people are still running 9 year old machines successfully. I hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.