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Oh god, I never thought I would ask this "here"!
- Thread starter w_parietti22
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Seasought
macrumors 65816
w_parietti22 said:
Choose your friend. No he will never get over it if you do go out with her. If you 'go for the girl' the friendship will inevitably deteriorate regardless. Now, when you say 'friend' I take that as a 'decent friend' one you have known a long time and one that you have been through a lot of good and perhaps bad times with.
Stay loyal to your friends.
Always.
applegirl
macrumors regular
efotoI said:
Let me first of all say that I KNOW there are going to be those out there who totally disagree with me. I'm not saying that all women are like this.
Having said that, my theory about the "undeserving women" has to do with how women are viewed in the larger picture. Women are taught from a young age (at least many that I know were) that they have to learn that their position in society was not given to them but earned. Women fought hard for a long time to be treated somewhat equally with men, and therefore are indebted to men for giving up their "superiority". Many women feel a sense that they OWE men a debt of gratitude, and to some extent have this reinforced through their upbringing. I think that treating men like crap is a relatively recent thing: women wouldn't have dreamed of talking to or treating men badly, say, 50 years ago. I think there's a sense of rebelliousness that's emerging in some women today who are basically testing the limits of the "undeserving woman" complex that is instilled in them. They want to prove to themselves that they actually DO deserve to be treated equally by rebelling against the "good guy" who they think is only being good to them because they [men] are somehow making up for years of unequal opportunity.
The "undeserving woman" can sometimes be indentified by her tendency to preface a question with an apology: she'll say things like "I know this is off-topic but..." and the infamous "This might be a stupid question but..."
Again, this is my theory. I have a tendency to try to analyze why people behave the way that they do, but of course every individual is different.
Survival of the fittest my friend. You have much more confidence than your friend, her friend likes you, and it's obvious she likes you. You have been handed the perfect situation. However, there is a small catch. Julia says she doesn't want to risk your friendship by going out with you, and that is where the glitch in the system lies. You see, she doesn't care about the future consequences. She is testing you. She is manipulating you, testing your boundaries. She wants to know how much you like her and how far you'll go to get her. Seeing that you seem confident around her and her friends, I think you can succeed. You want this girl. Let's not kid. We all know you won't be satisfied with just being friends with her for the rest of high school and beyond. Even she knows that she wants you but can't have you forever. This is a tragic flaw in the human race. We constantly try to manipulate the future and give up our basic current human desires in order to prevent failure and with the thought that by doing so we will increase potential. NOT TRUE! Who is Julia in the big picture of your life? She is a high school crush. Do you think that Julia is going to wait forever for you? No! She will move on at a brisk pace. She is most likely attracted to you, you want her, your friend will never have what you have, so just do it! Your chance is here and now, so don't try and save your friendship with her. As my mom always told me, "You probably won't remember she ever existed later in life!". The only thing that Julia could potentially bring to the table is experience and a broader knowledge of women. And that warm fuzzy feeling. You can't say no to that.
Oh and don't go through her friends. That makes you look less confident than you actually are. Don't talk about your feelings to Julia online, in love letters, or through her friends. Leave no evidence of anything you feel towards her except what you tell her directly to her face. Don't spill it all at once, flirt with her but play hard to get. You shouldn't be chasing her, let her chase you. Then tell her you want her, and see what happens. I guarantee success in this particular situation.
Always leave them wanting more.
The juice is only worth the squeeze.
Watch The Girl Next Door!
With regards from your friendly Professional Poon Snaggler,
_Matt
Oh and don't go through her friends. That makes you look less confident than you actually are. Don't talk about your feelings to Julia online, in love letters, or through her friends. Leave no evidence of anything you feel towards her except what you tell her directly to her face. Don't spill it all at once, flirt with her but play hard to get. You shouldn't be chasing her, let her chase you. Then tell her you want her, and see what happens. I guarantee success in this particular situation.
Always leave them wanting more.
The juice is only worth the squeeze.
Watch The Girl Next Door!
With regards from your friendly Professional Poon Snaggler,
_Matt
iris_failsafe
macrumors 6502
Actually there is only one solution where you can actually sort of not loose. That is that neither of you go after the girl. If either one gets her there will be problems but if both of you don't go after her, and look somewhere else neither will loose or win.
Then again is better to take the plunge and find out that will happen, the regret of not doing it is a zillion times more painful than the consequences of going after her.
P.S. I learned it the hard way...
Then again is better to take the plunge and find out that will happen, the regret of not doing it is a zillion times more painful than the consequences of going after her.
P.S. I learned it the hard way...
I swear I get more misspellings of my name when quoted than anyone else 😛
I have found that stating a disclaimer before posting gets old. Mature readers will realize that your statements are your opinion and do not apply as a rule, unless otherwise stated. I appreciate you trying to stay neutral by not offending anyone, but if someone reads your post and thinks you said all women are like that they are just foolish. (I have no idea why I chose to include this....just felt like saying it. It actually sounds quite like the 'undeserving woman' comments before a statement 😉 )
A very interesting theory there. I certainly agree that women were not equals for quite some time in history, and that relatively speaking it was not until recently that women started to be treated as equals in the workplace and others areas of life. I'm not sure why a woman would feel that she owes her new-found equality to man, but fine I suppose. It's not like blacks thanked whites for abolishing slavery....they certainly don't feel like they owe anyone anything for it from what I can see (not meant in a demeaning way at all, so don't take it that way).
The rebelliousness that is emerging more closely represents that of a small child than an oppressed gender. It is almost humorous to me that some women feel like they owe man something for 'setting them free' and others take all the slack they can get and whiplash the 'master' for all those years of tugging on the leash. Either way, I don't see why we can't all just get along! 😱
applegirl said:
I have found that stating a disclaimer before posting gets old. Mature readers will realize that your statements are your opinion and do not apply as a rule, unless otherwise stated. I appreciate you trying to stay neutral by not offending anyone, but if someone reads your post and thinks you said all women are like that they are just foolish. (I have no idea why I chose to include this....just felt like saying it. It actually sounds quite like the 'undeserving woman' comments before a statement 😉 )
A very interesting theory there. I certainly agree that women were not equals for quite some time in history, and that relatively speaking it was not until recently that women started to be treated as equals in the workplace and others areas of life. I'm not sure why a woman would feel that she owes her new-found equality to man, but fine I suppose. It's not like blacks thanked whites for abolishing slavery....they certainly don't feel like they owe anyone anything for it from what I can see (not meant in a demeaning way at all, so don't take it that way).
The rebelliousness that is emerging more closely represents that of a small child than an oppressed gender. It is almost humorous to me that some women feel like they owe man something for 'setting them free' and others take all the slack they can get and whiplash the 'master' for all those years of tugging on the leash. Either way, I don't see why we can't all just get along! 😱
iris_failsafe said:
Although your suggestion may make sense on some level, it makes little sense in applied life. Friends will always be together, therefore commonly they will meet the same people which includes girls. Often friends have a lot in common, including girls 😛 which would lend to similar interests in the same girls. If one of the pair of friends never pursued what they saw and wanted for fear of a friendship on the rocks, they would both end up old and bitter, but still friends.
I'm not suggesting you go and be a dick to your friend and rub it in his face when you 'win' her, but you should still pursue what you want. Friends forever, but self first. As arrogant as it may sound, I believe it to be true. The trick is to learn how to put yourself first without being/appearing as a self-righteous *******.
applegirl
macrumors regular
efoto said:
Fair enough. I'm relatively new to this forum and I don't want to go around making statements that will inflame anyone. Please, please, please forgive me.
I'm just as guilty as anyone else for being an "undeserving woman"...minus the treating the men like crap part. 😛
As far as the behaving like a young child...do you happen to see the same characteristics in young children as you see in, say, 15-16 year old boys (the rebelliousness/temper tantrums/"I hate you")? Reeks of rebellion.
Plymouthbreezer
macrumors 601
I'm in high school, so here's my "peer to peer" advice.
Don't go out with her.
Sure, it might be some "fun" for a bit, but it won't last. Your friendship is something that should, so work to preserve that. Anyway, there must be another girl who you can find (easier said then done, I know myself...). Or, as someone else suggested, let your friend have her, I doubt it will last long.
Or, talking (with your friend that is) always helps - as long as you remain rational and try to see the other persons point of view.
On the why nice guys finish last issue, I must say it's true. While high school isn't a great time for kids to be focusing on relationships, it's sad when good guys aren't considered because there's the more popular ones around, most of whom are a**holes. Still, there are a few girls out there who do see "us" for us, and that's reassuring. What's not good is the fact that there are many less of the girls that like nice guys, then those who like the jerks.
In the meantime, I hate being single (mainly the fact that the one girl I have liked since elementary school would never date me, and she has been dating someone for months now, which oh-so pains me). But realistically I know that I don't have the time these days to devote to a girl due to my involvement in so many clubs, activities, school in general, and hanging out with my friends (time when I don;t have to worry about a girl). On the otherhand, a couple of very nice girls have liked me, and I refused because I was blinded by my longtime crush, even though there was no chance with her. While I remain close friends with the girls who did like me (they are both dating people now), I regret not pursuing them at the time... But hey, what good does it do to dwell in the past?
Don't go out with her.
Sure, it might be some "fun" for a bit, but it won't last. Your friendship is something that should, so work to preserve that. Anyway, there must be another girl who you can find (easier said then done, I know myself...). Or, as someone else suggested, let your friend have her, I doubt it will last long.
Or, talking (with your friend that is) always helps - as long as you remain rational and try to see the other persons point of view.
On the why nice guys finish last issue, I must say it's true. While high school isn't a great time for kids to be focusing on relationships, it's sad when good guys aren't considered because there's the more popular ones around, most of whom are a**holes. Still, there are a few girls out there who do see "us" for us, and that's reassuring. What's not good is the fact that there are many less of the girls that like nice guys, then those who like the jerks.
In the meantime, I hate being single (mainly the fact that the one girl I have liked since elementary school would never date me, and she has been dating someone for months now, which oh-so pains me). But realistically I know that I don't have the time these days to devote to a girl due to my involvement in so many clubs, activities, school in general, and hanging out with my friends (time when I don;t have to worry about a girl). On the otherhand, a couple of very nice girls have liked me, and I refused because I was blinded by my longtime crush, even though there was no chance with her. While I remain close friends with the girls who did like me (they are both dating people now), I regret not pursuing them at the time... But hey, what good does it do to dwell in the past?
Plymouthbreezer said:
Regardless of it HS relationships last long or not, why should he succumb to his friend's wishes that he, the friend, get to date the girl and not the OP?
Probably the best advice yet. Talk to your friend, explain that you realize that you both are interested and yet you are not willing to let your friendship be jeopardized by a 'simple girl' (you have to make it seems like less than you want it to be). See how he reacts. If he is willing to risk your friendship over this girl, then you have to wonder how solid the friendship was to begin with. Personally I wouldn't tell him he can have her, I would just go in talking to him about that fact that you both realize you like her and you should let her decide. It's better to have her in the pressure seat and make her decide, even if she chooses neither of you, than force the decision on you and your friend.
I never understand this, no matter how it is explained. How can 'nice' girls not expect 'nice' guys? I hate it when 'good' people don't think they deserve as good as they are, although this rounds back to applegirl's theory about the 'undeserving woman', so you can read above for that.
I have a girl I have crushed since freshman year of HS recently make some very poor decisions of late, they broke my heart even though I never dated her. She at one point 'confessed' her undying love for me, yet claimed dating was a poor idea because it would jeopardize our friendship. I was drunk (surprise surprise) and talked into a stupid agreement that if we were single at 38 we would get married based on principal alone. That has since been talked down to 34 (I believe, always drops when she is finished with another ******* and she realizes how good I would be for her) but now I don't even talk to her since our friendship has been so tainted. I'm basically bitter and jaded since she has made some poor decisions against my better opinion (after asking me what to do), and I basically get sick of telling her she needs a guy just like me....but apparently not me. I realize now, after losing a potential girlfriend and now a great friend, that it would have been better to date her in the first place then put it off and 'wait' to see what happens.
I hope that all made sense, I have been drinking again so the words don't always flow like usual (not that they are normally great, but at least they usually make sense to me). So basically, talk to your friend and figure out his stance. Depending on what he says, go for the girl yourself and don't hesitate. That is my advice, but I'm single and drinking, so take that into consideration if you will 😛 😀
revenuee
macrumors 68020
The solution is simple ... forget the girl and ask you two others
dating within a circle of friends is just asking for trouble.
Drama is no fun, and that's what you are already experiencing -- it will only get worse.
i know you probably think that this girl is "amazing" and "incredible" you've been "friends" for so long, that it would be "perfect".
remember
girls are not scarce -- don't put to much emphasis on this one girl, it just leads to trouble --- trust me, you will meet another "great" girl
dating within a circle of friends is just asking for trouble.
Drama is no fun, and that's what you are already experiencing -- it will only get worse.
i know you probably think that this girl is "amazing" and "incredible" you've been "friends" for so long, that it would be "perfect".
remember
girls are not scarce -- don't put to much emphasis on this one girl, it just leads to trouble --- trust me, you will meet another "great" girl
applegirl
macrumors regular
efoto said:
It also depends on your definition of "good". To me, if a girl will cheat on a guy, whether she feels "undeserving" or not, she's not good/nice by any means; this is also the case if she treats a guy like crap. A "good" relationship is born out of mutual respect; I hate it when people play games in relationships, whether girl or guy.
Dr. Dastardly
macrumors 65816
I'm suprised why so many people are saying to just forget about the girl. I dated girls in high school and ALL of them were my friends before. Not just classmates that I got along with or anything but actual friends. If you don't enjoy your self to the fullest, take some chances, and god forbid do something stupid every once and a while you will have a ton of regrets!
And basically the way I see it, your friend crossed the line when he asked for Julia's friend to invite Julia to go to the movies but refussed to have you go. So I wonuldn't even worry about that, plus it sounds like she really digs you.
Also I HIGHLY doubt one of you will screw up the relationship so bad that you both find it impossible to remain friends. But chances are good if you do nothing you will just loose contact with her anyway like most of your friends when everyone graduates.
I just have a hard time seeing (or reading) a situation like this when its really not that big of a deal and you will regret it if you don't go through with it.
I myself finally got enough courage in the beginning of my senior year to ask out one of my best friends. It was just like your situation. I knew she liked me and I liked her but she was afraid we would screw up the friendship. I said lets just try a few dates and see how it pans out. If it doesn't work it doesn't work...
Were getting married in June.😛
And basically the way I see it, your friend crossed the line when he asked for Julia's friend to invite Julia to go to the movies but refussed to have you go. So I wonuldn't even worry about that, plus it sounds like she really digs you.
Also I HIGHLY doubt one of you will screw up the relationship so bad that you both find it impossible to remain friends. But chances are good if you do nothing you will just loose contact with her anyway like most of your friends when everyone graduates.
I just have a hard time seeing (or reading) a situation like this when its really not that big of a deal and you will regret it if you don't go through with it.
I myself finally got enough courage in the beginning of my senior year to ask out one of my best friends. It was just like your situation. I knew she liked me and I liked her but she was afraid we would screw up the friendship. I said lets just try a few dates and see how it pans out. If it doesn't work it doesn't work...
Were getting married in June.😛
Dr. Dastardly said:
Thanks for the incouragment fellow Washingtonian. (Is that what we call our sleves? 😉 )
Well, Just an update:
Arlene asked both me and Julia to come to HP w/ her... so tomorrow night were going. Not a date, but depending on how it goes... 😀
Thanks for everyone's advice. Even though I havent been posting much, I have been reading. 🙂
Dr. Dastardly
macrumors 65816
Unfortunatly.🙁w_parietti22 said:
OK totally do the fake yawn arm around her shoulder move. I can't wait for that post. You go stud! 😛w_parietti22 said:
groovebuster
macrumors 65816
sushi said:
Sorry, but that is complete BS...
A girl-friend is (or can becoem) a true friend too when you are not just looking for a screw. I wouldn't have married my wife if I was thinking that she would come and go. Today she is my best friend!
If it is a true friend the girl CAN NOT come between them. Otherwise it is not a true friend... Your statement is an oxymoron.
groovebuster
Dr. Dastardly said:
Do the yawn/arm move to both of them if you sit in the middle. It will be taken more lightly and jokingly instead of possibly being perceived as a 'move' to Julia. Even if you are drooling over Julia, make sure to pay attention to Arlene (or whatever other friends are with you) as that shows good character and should attract Julia to you even more! (assuming you don't act overly interested in the friend 😉 🙄 )
840quadra said:
We could probably swing a PG-13 rating I think....there isn't nudity or coarse language in PG-13 is there?
Stupid movie rating systems....bring back NC-17 and show me some good movies with real-life gore and violence. Makes me sound really disturbed, but I hate how 'soft' all media is presented these days.
sushi
Moderator emeritus
I was referring to a same sex true friend.groovebuster said:
Of course if you marry the right person for you they become/are your best friend. Good for you. BTW, statistically this doesn't happen for most.
True friends, are few and far between. As they say, when at the end of your life you can hold up one finger, you are lucky.
Of course many people don't realize the real meaning of true friend until you have a life altering event where it becomes evident.
It all boils down to which path do you want to take in life. Each to his own decision, may it work out best for them.
Sushi