Gagne sucks.Plain and simple. This isn't the Gagne that saved all those games with the Dodgers,obviously. Either he lost his change up,can't find it or forgot how to throw it,but he lives and dies by the fastball. He definitely can't handle the pressure. Fans hate him,and the media will have a field day with him now. It's too bad Donnely got hurt,because if he didn't,the Gagne deal probably never happens...The only good thing from these two games,is that the Sox showed they can chase their two aces out early...
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P-p-p-Playoffs!! Oh-seven!!
- Thread starter Counterfit
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Man, that was a painful game to watch.
I do have to say though, Fenway Park was electric all the way into the 11th inning. It may have been the longest game I ever attended, but it wasn't until the Indians put some runs on the board in the top of the inning that people started filing out. I'm proud of the Nation.
...Quick tangent: Boston either needs to keep public transportation running longer or they need to start games earlier- It was a looooong walk home last night.
I do have to say though, Fenway Park was electric all the way into the 11th inning. It may have been the longest game I ever attended, but it wasn't until the Indians put some runs on the board in the top of the inning that people started filing out. I'm proud of the Nation.
...Quick tangent: Boston either needs to keep public transportation running longer or they need to start games earlier- It was a looooong walk home last night.
Gagne may have let up a walk and a hit last night, but he wasn't the one who let them score.
Technically they were his runs, but if Lopez could get anyone out, it wouldn't have mattered.
So Gagne gets the loss and looks like the goat, but look a tiny bit deeper:
J Lopez relieved E Gagne.
T Nixon singled to center, G Sizemore scored, A Cabrera to third.
A Cabrera scored, T Nixon to second on wild pitch by J Lopez.
J Michaels ran for T Nixon.
V Martinez intentionally walked.
R Garko singled to center, J Michaels scored, V Martinez to second.
The other night Gagne loaded up the bases before getting out of it.
The real problem here was the horrible decision to let Lopez face Nixon.
Brilliant move by Wedge because Lester was Francona's long man if the game went deeper so you're not going to bring in Lester to face Nixon.
Problem is lefties are batting .293 against Lopez this year.
So instead of going down with one of the best relievers ever, you hand the ball to a some shlub named Lopez with Nixon up. And you know Nixon is juiced playing in Fenway.
I'd much rather give Gagne the chance to get out of trouble.
I mean seriously what did Gagne do that was so horrible?
He absolutely blew Blake away.
Sizemore went first ball fast ball and got a single. He walks Asdrubal.
If you're not going to let Gagne work out of a 2 on with 1 out situation, why is he even on the roster?
And if your excuse is the lefties coming up, then why even have him there to begin with?
Oh yeah lefties are hitting .224 against Gagne this year.
And over his career in 352 games over 289.2 IP, lefties are hitting .225 against him.
Basically, Francona blew it.
Technically they were his runs, but if Lopez could get anyone out, it wouldn't have mattered.
So Gagne gets the loss and looks like the goat, but look a tiny bit deeper:
J Lopez relieved E Gagne.
T Nixon singled to center, G Sizemore scored, A Cabrera to third.
A Cabrera scored, T Nixon to second on wild pitch by J Lopez.
J Michaels ran for T Nixon.
V Martinez intentionally walked.
R Garko singled to center, J Michaels scored, V Martinez to second.
The other night Gagne loaded up the bases before getting out of it.
The real problem here was the horrible decision to let Lopez face Nixon.
Brilliant move by Wedge because Lester was Francona's long man if the game went deeper so you're not going to bring in Lester to face Nixon.
Problem is lefties are batting .293 against Lopez this year.
So instead of going down with one of the best relievers ever, you hand the ball to a some shlub named Lopez with Nixon up. And you know Nixon is juiced playing in Fenway.
I'd much rather give Gagne the chance to get out of trouble.
I mean seriously what did Gagne do that was so horrible?
He absolutely blew Blake away.
Sizemore went first ball fast ball and got a single. He walks Asdrubal.
If you're not going to let Gagne work out of a 2 on with 1 out situation, why is he even on the roster?
And if your excuse is the lefties coming up, then why even have him there to begin with?
Oh yeah lefties are hitting .224 against Gagne this year.
And over his career in 352 games over 289.2 IP, lefties are hitting .225 against him.
Basically, Francona blew it.
Funny all these Gagne bashers in Boston. Obviously he's not the pitcher he was a few years ago, but he's still the guy who set a consecutive save record that will probably never be broken. And also, obviously, he wasn't the pitcher who really lost that game. Give the Indians some credit, why don't you?
For all those Boston fans who are unfamiliar with Gagne when he pitched for the Dodgers (probably nearly all of them), his killer pitch was never really the fast ball, it was the slow curve. Back when he was so dominant, he could strike guys out with three 65 MPH curve balls in a row. That's what made him great. It was the breaking stuff, not the heat.
For all those Boston fans who are unfamiliar with Gagne when he pitched for the Dodgers (probably nearly all of them), his killer pitch was never really the fast ball, it was the slow curve. Back when he was so dominant, he could strike guys out with three 65 MPH curve balls in a row. That's what made him great. It was the breaking stuff, not the heat.
I thought the changeup was always his dominant pitch. Of course in his hey day it was a 96-98 mph fastball setting it up too. He's dropped a bit from that. And if you noticed, what got him in trouble was that fastball, even though he did blow away Blake with an inside heater.
The curve and changeup seemed to be working ok, then he grooved a high fastball to Sizemore and then he lost the strikezone to asdrubal.
Cleveland gets full credit for a hard-fought game all around. But you clearly haven't followed Gagne since he came to Boston. He is literally not fit to take the mound. He's got multiple blown saves in very few appearances. Every time he's on the mound, it's a huge struggle to not give up three or four runs.
We are all very aware of the old Gagne... he's just not the same pitcher now.
There are some of us Boston fans that do follow players outside Boston. A surprise to some,yes I know..Right now, Gagne looks like a guy with a massive confidence problem or some underlying nagging injury.. Very fragile. He does not have control of himself mentally. He panics the first time something doesn't go exactly his way: a hit, a walk, even a pitch that doesn't get called a strike. I won't speculate on the exact nature of the panic itself because I can't know what he is thinking - but it manifests itself mechanically: he throws the ball different after a basehit or a walk. His leg kick varies; his elbow drops and his pitches flatten out; he cuts off his follow-through. The Cabrera at-bat really was a head scratcher. He seemed to rush things and may have been distracted by Sizemore at 1st.
Missed with his fastball low.
Then another beautiful curve for a strike (why doesn't he throw this more?)
Misses badly with a curve in the dirt
Change-up outside
Fastball outside
I think there could be a decent argument for letting him get through the jam but who can blame Tito for having no faith in Gagne given his track record. Cabrera was a relatively easy 'out' for that inning and Gagne displayed no command or aggressiveness.
I don't care what pitches the guy was able to throw 2,3,4 or 5 years ago. Who cares? What matters is now.So yeah, a lot of us don't have the same over flowing,abundant man love for the guy that some do...And quite honestly,the ALCS isn't the place to try and let a guy "get it right"..
Missed with his fastball low.
Then another beautiful curve for a strike (why doesn't he throw this more?)
Misses badly with a curve in the dirt
Change-up outside
Fastball outside
I think there could be a decent argument for letting him get through the jam but who can blame Tito for having no faith in Gagne given his track record. Cabrera was a relatively easy 'out' for that inning and Gagne displayed no command or aggressiveness.
I don't care what pitches the guy was able to throw 2,3,4 or 5 years ago. Who cares? What matters is now.So yeah, a lot of us don't have the same over flowing,abundant man love for the guy that some do...And quite honestly,the ALCS isn't the place to try and let a guy "get it right"..
Tito should have just brought in Lopez to begin the inning. As soon as Gagne came in I knew the game was over.
You have to have confidence in your pitchers.
If Tito can't trust Gagne to get out of a 2 on, 1 out situation in a tie game, then Gagne simply should not be on the roster. Period.
His tentativeness with Gagne in that situation cost him.
What you want there is someone other than Lopez. Okajima or Timlin is what you want there, not Lopez/Gagne.
I think he used Timlin and Okajima way too early.
It was always the big slow curve, which mixed in with mid-90s fastballs, was the deadly combination. He seemed to lose command of the curve when he had the back trouble. I think it became painful to throw. IIRC, during his last few appearances with the Dodgers, he was relying almost entirely on the heat, which was not what we were used to seeing from him.
I have followed him, and realize he's not the same pitcher. I'm just noticing that Boston fans like Yankee fans have a tough time giving any credit to the opposition.
Thank you very much!..And after catching some of Gagne's post game comments,he sounds like a guy that needs to have his shoelaces and belts taken away.
I'm wondering how much "influence" Theo and the FO had on Francona putting him on for this series?
Technically he did, the first two runs were charged to Gagne. Had Francona put Lopez (I'd much prefer Lester) or kept Papelbon (Its not like he can't throw 3 innings, he was going to start this year, plus with a day of rest in between games he'd likely be available to close on Monday for an inning) runners may have never reached base, but instead he went with Gagne, who everyone knew would blow it. Bad managing decision and even poorer pitching from Gagne.
Thank God Gagne is a freeagent next year, you made my day Zioxide.
Because he was brought in for situations just like last night.And he gagged. I don't think he's had one clean inning since the Sox signed him. And Sox fans are sick and tired of hearing about his glory days,what he used to do,what he used to throw,what he should do,what he might do,what his numbers are/were...blah blah blah....
You would think a guy would be pitching his ass off (ala Derek Lowe postseason 04) considering he's going to be a free agent at the end of the season..
since when is a "clean inning" the metric of success?
Borowski had an era over 5 and topped the league in saves.
Maybe if he felt he could let 2 guys get on without getting yanked he might pitch with a little more confidence.
I don't see sox fans getting on schill because he choked last night do we?
Sure it was Gagne's fault.
Here's Schil's line:
4.2 IP, 9 hits, 5 runs, 5 ER, 0 BB (good), 3 K, 2 HR (eww).
So Schill can lay an egg, but Gagne gives up a hit and a walk and the guy behind him can't pick up his teammate and Gagne's the problem.
You Sox fans are insane.
Maybe if he had made it out of the 5th, Francona wouldn't have had to overextend his pen.
Sorry I don't share the same man love/lust for your binky that you do. But that's my opinion just like you have yours.
and yet you're more than happy to give schilling the benefit of the doubt based on his past performances.
At least you're (in)consistent.
It is good to see one Yankee still in the playoffs.
go back to the golf course
Dude, he's been beyond *&*% horrible for the sox since he got here. No way around it, and no suprise why fans are on him. It's not really debatable.
He's JD Drew Part Deux. So when Sox fans groan when he's brought in, it's because they know he's gonna give up runs. And he sure does deliver on that.
Schilling, on the other hand, has an excellent playoff record.