Palm Pre Emulating an iPod to Accomplish iTunes Sync?

[cleanup]

Why is everyone complaining? Such news is only good for consumers. Would you really root for Apple over having more choice and freedom for yourself as a consumer? Are you an Apple zealot? Opposed to competition and new developments in the market?

Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to sync whatever I wanted with iTunes. iTunes is a bit uncompetitive in the sense that music you purchase from iTunes can only be played on iPods/iPhones, while music purchased from other online music stores can be played on anything.

 

[Test17]

Would Apple release a firmware update for a 4th or 5th Gen iPod? Just to stop Palm from using iTunes?

I never said they would or should, and I hope they don't. But I think they could if they wanted to.

To be honest I think Apple and Palm are going to end up with a cross-licensing agreement like the end of the legal "battle" between Apple and Creative.

 

[miketcool]

Or just go back and se someone's (cough, cough) posting history. Some have been here for years with nothing nice to say about aapl. Nice job if you can get it.

I don't want to go back through my posts, it'd be like reading the letters sent to a former lover. The affair seems over now, Apple broke my heart.

 

[Phil A.]

remember Phystar ???? Apple have sued lots of vendors trying to use OS X on there machines ... how is this different ... ????

Ignoring the fact that there has been no judgement against Psystar, the OS X license explicitly prohibits installing it on non-Apple hardware whilst the iTunes licenses does not say you can only use it to sync apple hardware so there is no breach of the license agreement involved.

As I've said previously, the closest analogy I can see is SAMBA on OS X that allows Macs to interoperate with a closed windows network: If you enabled Windows file sharing, your mac will pretend it's a Windows machine and communicate using the windows protocol.

If you look at a Mac on a Windows network, it identifies itself as "Windows NT 4.9 Server". This is little different to the Pre identifying itself as an iPod is it?

 

[fishkorp]

Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to sync whatever I wanted with iTunes. iTunes is a bit uncompetitive in the sense that music you purchase from iTunes can only be played on iPods/iPhones, while music purchased from other online music stores can be played on anything.

That was only true with DRM tracks. Many players and devices can play DRM-free iTunes tracks.

 

[iStudentUK]

Meh... don't see the problem. Good luck to them I say, competition is good.

I really don't like the fanboy era we seem to be in. Imagine if MS decided apple couldn't install itunes or sync iPods on their OS. Would destroy iPod overnight and there would be an outcry on here.

What if they made it so you can only have iLife, iWork, Safari, iPods, apple brand printers etc on Macs now, no 3rd party products? Market share would be <1% within a year or two, and Mac OS X would be dead within 5!!!

Consumers want a world where everything works with everything else, I'm sick of trying to see what file types work on different devices, which formats allow network storage, which cables are needed for different AV products... I realise that total compatibility is not possible, but we can get a lot closer than we are now.

 

[miketcool]

If you look at a Mac on a Windows network, it identifies itself as "Windows NT 4.9 Server". This is little different to the Pre identifying itself as an iPod is it?

Nail, hit on the head.

 

[diamond.g]

Ignoring the fact that there has been no judgement against Psystar, the OS X license explicitly prohibits installing it on non-Apple hardware whilst the iTunes licenses does not say you can only use it to sync apple hardware so there is no breach of the license agreement involved.

As I've said previously, the closest analogy I can see is SAMBA on OS X that allows Macs to interoperate with a closed windows network: If you enabled Windows file sharing, your mac will pretend it's a Windows machine and communicate using the windows protocol: If you look at a Mac on a Windows network, it identifies itself as "Windows NT 4.9 Server". This is little different to the Pre identifying itself as an iPod is it?

How do we know that Apple didn't ask MS for permission to do that? MS strikes me as the kind of company to bury you if you use their OS name without asking (and turn a profit from it at that).

 

[ddTaylor]

Er, except Apple gives away iTunes for free, to support sales of iPods. And the iTunes Store makes a little money for Apple, but not much -- again, its purpose is to drive iPod sales.

You do realize that Apple used to allow ANY MP3 player to sync with iTunes several years back, right? I have a generic MP3 player from Menard's and with a quick flash of the firmware with a nice open-source project I am able to sync my $35 8gb, color-screen MP3 player with iTunes and play all NON-DRM music.

Oh, speaking of DRM...now that DRM is gone for most iTunes songs there is no real reason Apple should care as any iTunes song can now be played on most any MP3 player.

I HATE the fact that only my iTouch, iPod and iPhone can sync with music I purchased LEGALLY form Apple via the iTunes store...but oh well, what do I know. If you ask my ex-wife and kids they will tell you not much.

D

 

[jonathanbruck]

Apple should weigh their options.

With this move, Palm may have freed Apple from their anti-trust lawsuit in Europe. If I remember correctly, it charged that Apple held an unfair competitive advantage because itunes was locking out other devices.

Maybe they should come up with an id for Pre and be happy selling palm owners all the music/tv shows they can.

 

[diamond.g]

With this move, Palm may have freed Apple from their anti-trust lawsuit in Europe. If I remember correctly, it charged that Apple held an unfair competitive advantage because itunes was locking out other devices.

Maybe they should come up with an id for Pre and be happy selling palm owners all the music/tv shows they can.

Palm owners can't play the TV Shows as they (and the Movies sold on iTunes) all have DRM that Apple won't license.

 

[natebookpro]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5H11 Safari/525.20)

This sounds like some Palm ploy to whine about Apple being unfair because other devices can't interface with iTunes. Apple will come back with "iPods can't dock with Palm Desktop" and Palm will look very stupid.

Nor do they want to lol

 

[gnasher729]

I hope Apple don't allow this.

Surely this must break some patent or law, if anyone else had done this there would be lawsuits left right and centre

yeah, apple will be all over this

I can very much appreciate that Apple doesn't like this, because it takes one competitive advantage away that the iPhone has compared to the Pre. But I am not convinced at all that this would be breaking any law.

For example: If the iTunes Music Store allows you to copy music that you download to up to five iPods, and you download music to a Pre instead, then it would be the owner of the copyright (record company) who might be able to sue you, but Apple couldn't. And if the record companies don't mind, such a download would be fine. As long as nothing is copied to the Pre that belongs to Apple, this should be fine. Copying music that _I_ own or copying playlists that _I_ created would have nothing to do with Apple.

I think legally Apple doesn't have to support this in any way, so if Apple makes a change to the iTunes software that breaks this _by coincidence_, then there is nothing that Palm can do about it. If Apple breaks this _on purpose_, the situation might be different. Because of this, I think Apple will order its iTunes developers not to test against any Pre's, in order to maximize the chances of accidental breaks and to make sure they cannot be accused of breaking it on purpose

If what this guy says is true it's beyond reprehensible. To fool a piece of software ( and underlying frameworks ) into believing the Pre is an iPod is illegal in many arenas. It's as close to corporate espionage as you can get. And seeing how former iPod designers are doing this is evidence enough of wrongdoing. Regardless of whether a person thinks iTunes is a monopoly or not. Had they not used "iPod" as the vendor ID to connect it would be a different story.

Exactly what is illegal about this? I used this wonderful piece of hardware for many years that tricked the tape cassette player in my car to believe that it was playing a tape cassette, while it really was playing music from my iPod. Was that illegal, and if so, how was it illegal? Which laws do you think Palm is breaking?

For example, Psystar got sued because they were illegally copying Apple's software (at least Apple claims they do, and I believe Apple is right). But what exactly is Palm doing that is breaking a law?

 

[Test17]

Off-topic but would people be this outraged* if the Pre was syncing with MobileMe? I'm under the impression that MobileMe is a bit of a cash cow though.

*The two articles on this topic: 153 Positives, 84 Negatives.

Palm owners can't play the TV Shows as they (and the Movies sold on iTunes) all have DRM that Apple won't license.

Yeah, but a Pre only has 8gb to play with - you need a Classic / Air for that anyway .

 

[Tussen69]

Regarding Palm "patents" ... they will possebly loose ..

Why you might ask .. Palm has there patents for loads of stuff ..

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/28/apple-vs-palm-the-in-depth-analysis/

like this

so this means that Palm has its own warheads .. no it dont ..

for you who dont know about patent claims .. a patent is only violated of all patents in each claim is violated or infraginated ...

so what does this mean ... well if I got one patent with 3 features within that patent you can steal 2 of them and I cant do nothing .. get it ... but if you steal all 3 of them its anouther story ...

in some cases a number of features is needed to make up the whole patent but in some cases just one thing can be patented .. take the pinch gesture ..

if Apple has pinch within a claim that also incudes de-pinch then Palm is free to steal just pinch ... but they would need some outher function to zoom out ..

now lets flip the coin and look at Palm patents ... I´m not intire convinced that Apple have infriginated Palms patents ... have a look yourself and say what you think ..

http://www.google.com/patents?id=yZN4AAAAEBAJ

 

[iPaf]

I can understand why APple would want to stop it, but why do you want it stopped?

Cause I have Apple stocks (AAPL).

 

[eastercat]

It would be great if Apple allowed devices like Zune and Pre to sync with iTunes. When it comes to choosing my music player or phone, I want to pick the one that I like the best--instead of the one that's compatible with my computer. Compatibility with iTunes helps even out the playing field.
Luckily, Apple has been making media playing products that I want to use.

 

[Small White Car]

Luckily, Apple has been making media playing products that I want to use.

Right.

Is there someone here who WANTED to buy a Zune, or something, and couldn't because it doesn't sync with iTunes?

Anyone?

I just don't see iTunes as a big lock-in that needs to be proteceted. People buy the device they want and figure out how to get their music on it later.

 

[mambodancer]

Why is this a big deal?

The Pre would be just one more device already compatible with the 20 or so devices that are already compatible with iTunes. What is the big deal? Here is the link to Apples Support page showing the list of 3rd party mp3 players that will show up under devices in iTunes:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

Apple will update the page to add one more: the Pre.


Digital Players Manufacturer Connection
iPod Apple FireWire / USB
Nomad II Creative Labs USB
Nomad II MG Creative Labs USB
Nomad II c Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox 20GB Creative Labs USB
Nomad Jukebox C Creative Labs USB
Novad MuVo Creative Labs USB
Rio One SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 500 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 600 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 800 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio 900 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S10 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S11 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S30S SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S35S SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio S50 SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Chiba SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Fuse SONICBlue/S3 USB
Rio Cali SONICBlue/S3 USB
psa]play 60 Nike USB
psa]play 120 Nike USB
SoundSpace 2 Nakamichi USB
CD MP3 Players Manufacturer
RioVolt SP250 SONICBlue/S3
RioVolt SP100 SONICBlue/S3
RioVolt SP90 SONICBlue/S3

 

[decksnap]

Apple has been tuning iTunes for eight years. They are in no way obligated to allow their competitors to use their software to enhance their competing product experience. There's no reason to prevent the use of the iTunes Store, but the sync experience is another story.

This is it. As somebody else mentioned, the iPhone/iPod experience (what makes owning one so good) is successful because of three things - hardware, OS and desktop syncing /integration through iTunes software. Why should they allow a competitor who only invested in the first two take advantage of their years of investment on the third one for free?

 

[AtHomeBoy_2000]

So, it's been widely reported that the Pre team involves several people who worked on the iPhone. How long until Apple finds a way to sue over stealing of intellectual property or something along those lines?

 

[*LTD*]

Speaking of patents . . .

Here are four new ones for Apple:

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.p...ranted_multi_touch_and_iphone_design_patents/

 

[tigres]

Did Apple try to dock an iPod with Palm Desktop?

Because if they didn't _Apple_ will look very stupid if they complain that it doesn't work.

So Apple is giving us the digital hub. It just must not become too hubby. If we start using it as our "digital hub" and as the centre of all our digital devices, Apple will sue us and/or the people who provide the products we use.

That's convenient.

There are three things I really hate about Apple: their customer service, their use of government powers to defeat competition, and the fact that they never test their software.

I am going to have to disagree strongly on your "customer service" report. To tell you the facts, this is really a very strong reason I buy Apple products is there ability and consistantly to stand behind product failures. I.E. last evening I brought one of my Macbooks (2.5 years old in for the 3rd hd failure.) for repair. Store manager comes up to the Genius bar- and poof brings me a brand new one in the box with little to no fight. That my friend is service. Granted it is a PIA to have this product fail, but try that service with Dell, or Toshiba or Whatever... Never going to happen...

Sorry for the off topic.

 

[Thataboy]

God who cares.

The Pre honestly looks like it is by far the best non-iPhone out there. Of course, it hasn't been put through a real world test yet. I am glad it is coming out, and I hope it is moderately successful -- needs to step up the game for the 2010 model(s) instead of going out of its way to break Pre's iTunes syncing.

Frankly, when I look at the ZuneHD and Pre OS/interfaces, the iPhone OS is starting to look a little dated to me!

 

[Kwill]

A lawsuit will be ugly

Surely this must break some patent or law, if anyone else had done this there would be lawsuits left right and centre

There's some serious huevos kicking going on to prompt a legal battle!

(Prepare for another iTunes download in the Software Updater.)