.Andy
macrumors 68030
Not really. A company has no obligation to respect the business plan of another company (within the law). That's what competition is all about. You cold argue subjectively that it is unethical but that's about it.
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Palm Pre Roundup: Public Launch Tomorrow, iTunes 8.2 Syncing
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SirithX
macrumors 6502
I think it would be cool if Apple built-in support for the Pre into iTunes. So many people already use iTunes for their music and iPods, it wouldn't be practical for Palm to try to make something to compete so their method to go with the flow of what works is better for them and their consumers, and my point is that it's just better for consumers in general. This would also help Apple maintain market share in the media player market, and show people that Apple isn't afraid of the Pre. iTunes compatibility with as many phones as possible would be very convenient.
The image of palm created by all this is that it's employees are bitter ex apple staff who weren't good enough to progress at apple. So when they were looked over for promotion they spat the dummy and left for palm vowing revenge to join their equally bitter mates.
This may nor be what happened but this is how it looks. They are staffed by people not good enough for apple.
Why leave yourself exposed to another company turning a major feature off as you hacked in using questionable means.
It just isn' sitting well with me . A company should be built on a solid foundation. Palm are behaving like a bunch of petulemt children with no real ideas of themselves.
They are desperate with nothing to loose. They may pull it off but I think they are going down.
This may nor be what happened but this is how it looks. They are staffed by people not good enough for apple.
Why leave yourself exposed to another company turning a major feature off as you hacked in using questionable means.
It just isn' sitting well with me . A company should be built on a solid foundation. Palm are behaving like a bunch of petulemt children with no real ideas of themselves.
They are desperate with nothing to loose. They may pull it off but I think they are going down.
I'm sorry but that is non-sensical.
How is Apple going to maintain market share in the media player market by letting other media players sync with their kick ass media player? Not.
Apple has said all along that the iTunes store is a break even business. Apple makes it money selling the iPods, iPhones and whatever else they will come up with.
Of course Apple isn't afraid of the Pre. But they aren't about to start designing software for the damn thing. And that is basically what people are saying Apple should do.
It makes no sense on any level. The Pre will lose any ability to sync to iTunes in one of the next updates.
inkswamp
macrumors 68030
Everyone keeps talking about how Apple is in a bind with the Pre/iTunes sync thing because if they make a public move to stop it, they look bad and if they don't make a move, Palm wins.
Well, I see it from the other angle. Palm really opened up a bit of a Pandora's Box with this. All Apple has to do is engineer some craziness into the next version of iTunes that breaks syncing and then sit back and watch. The blogosphere would start arguing about whether that feature does or doesn't work and a few tech journalists are bound to join in and say how sad it is that Palm could only attract serious attention by hitching their Pre to the rising star of the iTunes store and yet, the promised feature doesn't even work.
And the poor Pre will get rolled along in a wave of bad publicity.
I really think this puts Palm in a weak position, frankly.
Clearly the Pre team is a technically competent one. My big question is what now? Where do all the great ideas for Pre v. 2 come from? It's one thing to pull off a clone of an existing product, another entirely to outdo it with newer and bigger ideas.
Well, I see it from the other angle. Palm really opened up a bit of a Pandora's Box with this. All Apple has to do is engineer some craziness into the next version of iTunes that breaks syncing and then sit back and watch. The blogosphere would start arguing about whether that feature does or doesn't work and a few tech journalists are bound to join in and say how sad it is that Palm could only attract serious attention by hitching their Pre to the rising star of the iTunes store and yet, the promised feature doesn't even work.
And the poor Pre will get rolled along in a wave of bad publicity.
I really think this puts Palm in a weak position, frankly.
Clearly the Pre team is a technically competent one. My big question is what now? Where do all the great ideas for Pre v. 2 come from? It's one thing to pull off a clone of an existing product, another entirely to outdo it with newer and bigger ideas.
Xibalba
macrumors 6502
while i welcome adding competition to the "smartphone" market and understand that just like the verizon voyager and blackberry bold/storm that there will be a market for the pre, i am so glad that i found the iphone in Nov 07 and cannot wait to upgrade again this summer.
my personal and professional life depend on the iphone...now if only the new iphone hardware or the 3.0 OS would encourage epocrates to speed up their program i could get through my patients more efficiently...
my personal and professional life depend on the iphone...now if only the new iphone hardware or the 3.0 OS would encourage epocrates to speed up their program i could get through my patients more efficiently...
I suspect what will happen is that Apple will break Pre compatibility with the next update but not for reasons noted above...I suspect there is some clause in the agreements between Apple and the record labels that will not allow sync with devices other than iPod / at least no new devices as some earlier posts indicated some devices are 'grandfathered' to sync. Maybe I'm totally off base with this since I am not familiar with the contracts Apple has (of course) and, thankfully, I'm not a scumbag lawyer but I assume that one of the limits placed at least for the old DRM music sold in the past would not allow sync to more than a set number of devices. Does anyone know if by assuming an iPod 'costume' the Pre takes up one of the set number of 'syncable' devices linked to a given copy of iTunes?
From what I have read elsewhere Apple has little to fear from the Pre due to poor build quality / there are reports that VERY few will actually be available for launch and that the reason is that they have to be manually checked for the very common build errors. If that is the case, many bad units will soon be circulating and will tarnish the launch.
Disclaimer - long on Apple and therefore biased. I'll admit I'm an Apple fan but not a 'fanboy'. I actually hope the Pre does well - check out the video on Palm.com; it looks like a nice OS. Competition is good and will only make the next iPhone even better.
From what I have read elsewhere Apple has little to fear from the Pre due to poor build quality / there are reports that VERY few will actually be available for launch and that the reason is that they have to be manually checked for the very common build errors. If that is the case, many bad units will soon be circulating and will tarnish the launch.
Disclaimer - long on Apple and therefore biased. I'll admit I'm an Apple fan but not a 'fanboy'. I actually hope the Pre does well - check out the video on Palm.com; it looks like a nice OS. Competition is good and will only make the next iPhone even better.
AMEN! I have been very disappointed with the latest Epocrates updates - I used to be able to check a dose or wholesale price in seconds and now it is SO slow. We went to EHR this year and so now I'm doubly slowed; but with costs I see the same number of patients - so end up working till midnight several times a week....I'll get off my soapbox now.
cocky jeremy
Suspended
Exactly. It's ok though. Let me introduce my two friends to each other.
Bankruptcy court, this is Palm. Palm, this is bankruptcy court...
Goodnight. iPhone FTW.
No, my point was that the Pre was not sending any information to iTunes that is an 'iPod' (referencing the 'Syncing iPod' line as seen) but rather, iTunes interpreted the Pre as such.
It is tricking software to get it to interoperate, and in this case, there is no harm to anyone. In fact, it only simplifies the experience for end users with no loss in any shape or form, to Apple.
So why the complaining? Because the apt-named 'Appletards' jump on anything that is not pro-Apple. Honestly, if anything, this is good for Apple, seamless syncing between the Pre and iTunes can only lead to more use of iTunes (and thus store purchases, which, guess what, only benefit Apple).
No harm, no foul; but leave it to the aforementioned to cry foul at nothing. That was my point and I apologize if that was not more clear from my previous post.
MorphingDragon
macrumors 603
Thats a very terrible and misinformed argument. Read up on copyright and the DMCA laws some more.
kdarling
Contributor
Wow. That's a totally different image than I got. I think Palm hired the brightest, not the dumbest and most bitter.
Do you really think all the people that Apple hired away from other companies, also came to Apple only because they were terrible at their old jobs? If so, why would Apple hire them? Ditto for Palm.
I think it's more likely that these are very creative people, who wanted to work somewhere that their ideas could come to life, without a boss hampering them. That's why I've changed jobs before.
Apple should just get it over with and block it, it doesn't matter if they do. Palm can always just use something else to get the job done.
http://www.palmpreitunes.com/
http://www.palmpreitunes.com/
khunsanook
macrumors 6502
Why is Palm releasing their product a few days before one of Apple's biggest events of the year? So much for any immediate media focus Palm. Whatever Apple announces will most likely trump any Pre press.
aristotle
macrumors 68000
I'm sick and tired of hearing about the Pre and having fanboys gloss over the fact that the "API" is just a way to make glorified web widgets. It is not possible to create the kind of games like we see on the iPhone such as Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed Underground etc..
Palm has not released a native API for the Pre and they are trying to pull a fast one by calling their OS "WebOS". There is no OpenGL support and no way to create sophisticated AI, collision detection, signal processing or 3D rendering with Javascript and HTML.
The pre below iPhone 1.x as far as a functional API let alone iPhone 3.x.
I remember everyone bitching about there being no API before iPhone OS 2.x but now the internet media seem to think web widgets are ok because Palm is doing it.
Palm has not released a native API for the Pre and they are trying to pull a fast one by calling their OS "WebOS". There is no OpenGL support and no way to create sophisticated AI, collision detection, signal processing or 3D rendering with Javascript and HTML.
The pre below iPhone 1.x as far as a functional API let alone iPhone 3.x.
I remember everyone bitching about there being no API before iPhone OS 2.x but now the internet media seem to think web widgets are ok because Palm is doing it.
Why block something which is an inferior product.
If I were Apple, I'd want to help Pre as much as possible.
Someone has to pick up the dribble of customers who don't buy iPhones and for Apple, I'm sure they'd prefer that to be Palm or RIM as opposed to any ***** Micro$oft brings out.
And if they can sync it on their MAC, Apple still wins by selling them a Mac. They can then work on 10.6 more to impress these people enough to make their next phone an Apple one 😀
If I were Apple, I'd want to help Pre as much as possible.
Someone has to pick up the dribble of customers who don't buy iPhones and for Apple, I'm sure they'd prefer that to be Palm or RIM as opposed to any ***** Micro$oft brings out.
And if they can sync it on their MAC, Apple still wins by selling them a Mac. They can then work on 10.6 more to impress these people enough to make their next phone an Apple one 😀
kas23
macrumors 603
Actually, due to this move, Palm is piggybacking onto the WWDC news. We shall see the media reports, but any news of the WWDC will likely include a blurb about the Pre.
This makes good sense. If this is such an inferior product, then Apple shouldn't have to waste their time on worry about it. If Apple believes their iPhone is superior, the market will dictate how well it does. Let's fight this on the technological front, not in the courtroom. And yes, iTunes does expose people to Apple products. What does Apple have to lose by letting the Pre syn to iTunes?
bruinsrme
macrumors 604
Well, if apples takes as longas it has in giving iphone users copy and paste, Palm has a while.
First off you're wrong in thinking that somehow Apple wanted Fairplay. The record labels forced Apple into doing it. When Steve Jobs wrote the open letter for DRM free, the labels were pissed that he did it because it laid the blame directly on their lap and fueled the fervor even more for DRM free. This was really the start for Apple vs. the music industry.
Secondly, I don't know if anybody uses IE8 browser strings. I know that Safari sometimes uses Mozilla browser strings and I am sure that they talked to Mozilla first about it.
Third. There is a way out of Fairplay. You can use the analog hole. Let's be frank about this. You didn't need iTunes to get your iTunes media on the Pre. Palm is piggybacking Apple's "ease of use" solution. That is what's wrong. They are using what Apple has worked hard to build up and deliver that solution.
They could have used DVDJon's solution (DoubleTwist). That was the whole reason why that was made. Instead they directly used Apple's vendor ID and masked itself as an iPod. They wanted as seamless a solution as Apple offered so they pulled a hack.
I hope they do get sued. There were other solutions available and they decided to stick it to them instead. Palm is showing no respect for another company's IP. The sooner Palm goes bankrupt, the better off everyone will be. It even more disgusting that they're touting to this customers as a feature when Apple can close the hole anytime they wanted. Innovation will continue without them.
The EU is already knocking on Apple's door for being a monopoly in the online music world. Microsoft was being dragged through the mud for nothing more than bundling a freaking web browser with Windows. Microsoft never said only IE can run on Windows, we will block Firefox. All they did was include their browser in Windows and a few years later and millions of dollars in legal fees they're still in court!
It doesn't matter that Apple invented iTunes/iPod one bit, they're by far in first place when it comes to online music and some court somewhere is going to soon have a problem with that. Apple would be best to play nice and not rattle any cages.
Honestly, there are tons of media sync applications out there that'd work great with the Pre. iTunes without the store really isn't that feature rich. If I didn't own an iPhone, I wouldn't use iTunes personally. I'm switching my iPhone to a Pre and porting my number to Sprint tomorrow. Since all my music is already synced via iTunes I'll simply use it, but rest assured I'm not upgrading my iTunes until I confirm it's Pre safe. 😀 When I upgrade to Win7 I'm not installing iTunes on it and I'll use something else like Mediamonkey.
Besides, it's not like anybody was sitting around thinking "Gee, I was going to buy a Pre until I found out it doesn't work with iTunes".
It doesn't matter that Apple invented iTunes/iPod one bit, they're by far in first place when it comes to online music and some court somewhere is going to soon have a problem with that. Apple would be best to play nice and not rattle any cages.
Honestly, there are tons of media sync applications out there that'd work great with the Pre. iTunes without the store really isn't that feature rich. If I didn't own an iPhone, I wouldn't use iTunes personally. I'm switching my iPhone to a Pre and porting my number to Sprint tomorrow. Since all my music is already synced via iTunes I'll simply use it, but rest assured I'm not upgrading my iTunes until I confirm it's Pre safe. 😀 When I upgrade to Win7 I'm not installing iTunes on it and I'll use something else like Mediamonkey.
Besides, it's not like anybody was sitting around thinking "Gee, I was going to buy a Pre until I found out it doesn't work with iTunes".
kas23
macrumors 603
I'm curious, why do you say this?
It will, but at a snails pace, considering it took 2 years to develop MMS and c/p.
The main problem with Microsoft is not really that they are bundling IE with Windows. The problem is with that majority of users they were trying to impose their own standards on the Internet through things such as Active X. To this day, Active X is still a pain in the ass for everyone. Even now IE is not standards compliant. While every new browser manages to pass Acid 3, IE8 gets a 20/100. This is the reason why the EU hates Microsoft and wants to destroy IE. It also does not help Microsoft that the US government backs them up on everything.
As for iTunes, it's not Palm's job to decide whether they are a monopoly. iTunes is not preventing other people from access to music. There are many mp3 players and media player that can do what itunes can do. If you didn't have IE & Active X you could not visit many websites. That is a monopoly. There are still some important websites that have not been redesigned for 10 years that you still can't access if you don't have IE.
If you don't like iTunes, then don't use it. But don't sit here and complain about iTunes being a monopoly and on the other hand say that you wouldn't use it if not for the iPhone. That alone is a contradiction to your initial argument.
Because when one company used another company's IP without permission it is disrespectful and dishonest. Even when asked about this by Mossberg, they had a smart ass remark. If they are so willing to disrespect Apple with their expensive lawyers, how easy is it for them to screw over their customers?
Palm had two choices:
1. Make their own app for mac and windows that would have synced with content in your iTunes folder
2. Use DoubleTwist which is free and open source and would have not required any serious effort from Palm compared to making your own app.
Instead they decided to mask themselves as an iPod to use a system that Apple put a lot of hard work into making.
As to your second comment, innovation would not continued at a snail's pace. WebOS is not a mobile OS from 15 years in the future. In fact much of the design of the OS, including multitouch, is copied from Apple and the windowshade of notifications was copied from Google. There is not even any evidence that Palm has influenced anyone or anything. Apple and Google have been innovating long before them. Do you really believe that Palm suddenly sped up Apple's schedule of adding MMS and copy/paste?
Don't believe for a second that Palm is doing this for everyone else's benfit. They're motives are selfish.