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Palm Pre Vs. iPhone

slapppy said:
Your misdirecting this. You wanted to point out the past, I gave it back to you.
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So ex-Apple employees working for Palm and creating the Pre is not past, but the example of Apple hiring an IBM employee for Senior VP of Devices (after Apple had acquired a chip-maker) is the past?

It is easy to rationalize one's point when they can decide what "counts" as evidence and what doesn't. The Papermaster is an example, as well as Palm's hiring of Apple employees, of what goes on in the tech industry. These practices are what lead to new innovations and no tech company can do/develop everything on their own without help/inspiration/etc. from other tech companies.
 
slapppy said:
Which Jobs ran and Soundjam was for the Mac only. Fingerworks outright acquisition.

Palm?

"We've learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone," Ed Colligan apparently laughed about with John Markoff last Thursday morning. "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in."

Yeah right.
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Soundjam was for the Mac only... ok, so what? Without it, we wouldn't have iTunes as it is today.

There are HUNDREDS of employees at Apple. Many of which are vital to Apple's operations. MANY of which come from OTHER companies from which their knowledge from OTHER companies have CONTRIBUTED to Apple's success.

Get off your d*mn high horse and step away from the Apple kool-aid. It's time to come back to REALITY.

What about the guy Apple hired WHO WORKED AT MICROSOFT's XBOX LIVE DIVISION?

Give me a break :rolleyes:

w00master
 
Slappy has shown his fanboy ways haha.

No one is even down talking Apple of or the iPhone yet he finds the need to down talk everything about Palm and the Pre.


And then try to flip anything you say about that back around.


He would make a good politician. Incredibly bias and great spin tactics.
 
bdorpetzl said:
So ex-Apple employees working for Palm and creating the Pre is not past, but the example of Apple hiring an IBM employee for Senior VP of Devices (after Apple had acquired a chip-maker) is the past?

It is easy to rationalize one's point when they can decide what "counts" as evidence and what doesn't. The Papermaster is an example, as well as Palm's hiring of Apple employees, of what goes on in the tech industry. These practices are what lead to new innovations and no tech company can do/develop everything on their own without help/inspiration/etc. from other tech companies.
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Go back to post 172. Your point is irrelevant.
 
DougB541 said:
Slappy has shown his fanboy ways haha.

No one is even down talking Apple of or the iPhone yet he finds the need to down talk everything about Palm and the Pre.


And then try to flip anything you say about that back around.


He would make a good politician. Incredibly bias and great spin tactics.
Click to expand...

Huh? go back to post 172, I made my point in return, no spinning there.
 
slapppy said:
Go back to post 172. Your point is irrelevant.
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That does not prove your point at all. You contend that Palm could only make the Pre because of ex-Apple employees per your post #161. Ipointed out that this is common within the tech industry and mentioned that Apple's recent hire of Mark Papermaster, from IBM, after Apple had recently acquired a chip making company is very similar to the Palm Pre situation.

Linking to a www site about the development of Apple and the first Mac does not prove your point. All it proves is that you have Apple tinted glasses on. My god you act like Apple has single handedly created and revolutionized computers on their, which is far, far from reality.
 
bdorpetzl said:
My good you act like Apple has single handedly created and revolutionized computers on their, which is far, far from reality.
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No, not computers. Personal computers, Graphical User Interface you use today, whose very roots are from the development that Apple did with Macintosh. As clearly laid out and chronicled at the site I posted. From the very engineers and programers of the Mac. Yes, the GUI you use today owes quite a bit on the Mac/Apple.
 
As others have pointed out, it's the very backbone of the industry, that people will move from a company that isn't using all their talents, to one that will.

-Jobs used that fact when he lured Sun employees away to work on the Mac GUI.

-Jobs did it again when he formed NeXT, and stole the best Mac guys for his company.

-Apple did it last year when they hired IBM and Motorola top people.

-Apple just repeated it a few weeks ago, hiring the CTO of AMD graphics chip division.

Palm has done no different: they've hired quite an impressive array of ex-Apple guys, including designers, production experts and developer relationship gurus.

Clearly those ex-Apple employees felt that they could do better with Palm. Perhaps they got tired of Steve's temper tantrums.

Or maybe they just heard that Palm was doing something cool that Apple wouldn't let them do, and they jumped at the chance.
 
slapppy said:
No, not computers. Personal computers, Graphical User Interface you use today, whose very roots are from the development that Apple did with Macintosh. As clearly laid out and chronicled at the site I posted. From the very engineers and programers of the Mac. Yes, the GUI you use today owes quite a bit on the Mac/Apple.
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Bringing up the development of a GUI further proves my point. The Xerox Parc was the first GUI and it was with help from members of the Xerox Parc group, Steve Jobs and Jeff Raskin were able to continue development of the GUI, but they needed the help from the former Parc members to do that. That is much akin to what happened with the Pre.
 
bdorpetzl said:
Bringing up the development of a GUI further proves my point. The Xerox Parc was the first GUI and it was with help from members of the Xerox Parc group, Steve Jobs and Jeff Raskin were able to continue development of the GUI, but they needed the help from the former Parc members to do that. That is much akin to what happened with the Pre.
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No it doesn't. Your stretching the truth. The development that the group created was far different from what Xerox/Parc showed to Apple. It's not a continuation, but a whole new animal. Pre is just a blatant copy of the iPhone UI, with a variation. It's not a whole new UI.

- Progress dialogs
- Confirmation dialogs (Star had one line at the top of the screen where you clicked Yes or No.)
- Drag and Drop on desktop -- In Star the user selected the icon, pressed a keyboard key for Copy or Move, then clicked at the destination. Macintosh Drag and Drop feels more natural.
- Macintosh icons have much better labels. It's a small thing, but in Star the label is part of the icon, so more than about 8 characters gets chopped off.
- Tool palettes -- Star didn't use these. The first instance I'm aware of is in MacPaint.
- Menus -- Macintosh had a menubar, Star didn't. Star had a few menus that popped up from buttons in windows headers or dialog boxes, but it didn't use a menubar. In fact it used very few menu commands -- relying instead on a few keys on the keyboard and property sheets (dialogs). See http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/1/p6-lg.jpg
-- Better designs for Radio Buttons, Checkboxes -- Star's dialog box widgets really weren't as well designed as those in Macintosh. Nore were there as many different kinds of widets.
- Setting properties via menus -- Macintosh used menus like Font, Size to set properties on content. In Star you had to use the property sheet.
- Keyboard Equivalents (aka Command-Keys) -- Star didn't use these, but they had been used earlier in SmallTalk-80 at PARC.
- Color -- Star didn't have color until much later than Macintosh, and it wasn't done nearly as well.
-Smalltalk has no Finder
-resources and dual-fork files for storing layout and international information apart from code
-definition procedures
- drag-and-drop system extension and configuration
-types and creators for files
-direct manipulation editing of document
-disk, and application names
-redundant typed data for the clipboard
-multiple views of the file system
-desk accessories
-control panels, among others
-pull down menus
-imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw
-the clipboard
-cleanly internationalizable software.
 
slapppy said:
No it doesn't. Your stretching the truth. The development that the group created was far different from what Xerox/Parc showed to Apple. It's not a continuation, but a whole new animal.
Click to expand...

Yes, a lot of it was different. But the point was that Apple did just what Palm did: hire experienced people in the fields they needed.

Pre is just a blatant copy of the iPhone UI, with a variation. It's not a whole new UI.
Click to expand...

Blatant copy? How so? The basics are common to all touch-centric devices, from factory floor touch consoles to mall kiosks, but especially so in handhelds.

The iPhone's not a whole new UI. I and my friends in the business have seen and made the same type of UIs for decades. The iPhone core, the app icon grid, has been around longer than many of the readers here have been alive. Context keyboard changes? Did that in 1999. Flashy effects? Old. Ditto for kinetic scrolling, sizing, you name it.

It's just new to you and most other consumers. I give great credit to Apple for bringing it all out of the shadows.

I can't think of anything Apple did that hasn't been done before, with two minor exceptions:

1) The rubberbanding at edges was new to me, but probably not to others.

2) I admire their clever trick of immediately presenting a stored static image of the application to the user, so that you think it's starting up quickly... while in reality it could be quite a few seconds before it becomes fully ready.
 
kdarling said:
Yes, a lot of it was different. But the point was that Apple did just what Palm did: hire experienced people in the fields they needed.



Blatant copy? How so? The basics are common to all touch-centric devices, from factory floor touch consoles to mall kiosks, but especially so in handhelds.

The iPhone's not a whole new UI. I and my friends in the business have seen and made the same type of UIs for decades. The iPhone core, the app icon grid, has been around longer than many of the readers here have been alive. Context keyboard changes? Did that in 1999. Flashy effects? Old. Ditto for kinetic scrolling, sizing, you name it.

It's just new to you and most other consumers.

I can't think of anything Apple did that hasn't been done before, with two minor exceptions:

1) The rubberbanding at edges was new to me, but probably not to others.

2) I admire their clever trick of immediately presenting a stored static image of the application to the user, so that you think it's starting up quickly... while in reality it could be quite a few seconds before it becomes fully ready.
Click to expand...

A lot? It's more than a lot. Just about every part of it.

To compare the iPhone to mall kiosk and ATM touch interface is plain silly. Whats to compare next? An Apple is the same as an orange? Similarly shaped and similar to the food groups? Seems that this is where its heading to. :rolleyes:
 
slapppy said:
A lot? It's more than a lot. Just about every part of it.
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Okay, what parts of the iPhone UI do you think are unique, and that Palm copied?

To compare the iPhone to mall kiosk and ATM touch interface is plain silly.
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Don't misquote me. I said factory floor interfaces, not ATMs. Whether it's for factory or home control, casino games or field touch apps, they all follow some basic touch UI and design rules that have been around as long as touch systems have.

In my thirty+ years' experience programming UIs, fifteen doing touch systems, ten on handhelds, there's rarely been anything new. Just because you've never seen such things as sliding switches, item groupings, finger scrolling, large buttons, or whatever it is that you thought was terribly unique, doesn't make them so.
 
kdarling said:
Okay, what parts of the iPhone UI do you think are unique, and that Palm copied?



Don't misquote me. I said factory floor interfaces, not ATMs. Whether it's for factory or home control, casino games or field touch apps, they all follow some basic touch UI and design rules that have been around as long as touch systems have.

In my thirty+ years' experience programming UIs, fifteen doing touch systems, ten on handhelds, there's rarely been anything new. Just because you've never seen such things as sliding switches, item groupings, finger scrolling, large buttons, or whatever it is that you thought was terribly unique, doesn't make them so.
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There is no need to "brag" about your 30 years. The fact is the Multi-Touch implementation of the iPhone is not in the same category as what you portray it to.
 
slapppy said:
There is no need to "brag" about your 30 years. The fact is the Multi-Touch implementation of the iPhone is not in the same category as what you portray it to.
Click to expand...

OK. I don't have 30 years of computer UI design experience... my first exposure to doing graphical UI development was only about 28 years ago.

And I have to agree with Bruce Horn that the history of UI design is more intertwined than even according to the first person recollections of some of its key historical figures. I look at all these new interfaces and see maybe a few unique innovations based on a large foundation of pre-existing ideas and technologies.

The Palm team has some ideas, coming from their palmtop usability mantras, that lead to some better user experiences than their competition (e.g. how many taps it takes to do some very common tasks). But Apple seems to be able to bring UI innovation to market for a wider range of usages and audiences than any of their competitors.

IMHO.
 
How many Pres will they sell? Will they even beat the sales of the first iphone in it's opening 3 days?
 
While I agree that Palm didn't blatantly copy the iPhone UI, I will also say that Palm did exactly what Apple did - they took existing technologies and put them together in a different way. This happens all the time: houses, cars, TVs, gaming systems, computers...

There is nothing unique about the Pre. Everything they claim for fame, exists somewhere else just like the iPhone - but now days it's all about how you put it together. Of course, all the old Apple employees know to ignore what already exists on the market and simply claim how great that feature is on their device.

How much have you heard about Palm's card view? It's one of the features the Pre is known for. Yet, it's the same thing as Apple's Safari cards view (which is probably like someone else's card view). Although, I think Palm did choose a better way to close cards - why aim for an "X" when I can swipe it away.

The only thing that ever bothers me when people argue Palm and Apple is that they claim Palm created the handheld PDA (1996) and everything else is derivative. The whole time ignoring Apple's Newton (1992) and other company's PDA before that...
 
Goona said:
How many Pres will they sell? Will they even beat the sales of the first iphone in it's opening 3 days?
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Not even close... Most of the stores had 10 to 30 people in line at most this morning. With the iphone 2G and the 3G I stood in a line of 400 or more that went on all day long.
 
Goona said:
Will they even beat the sales of the first iphone in it's opening 3 days?
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I don't think Palm needs to worry about that...they just need to sell units, make money, and keep producing products. WebOS looks very promising, but I doubt I'll get it on the Pre because currently its only CMDA. And even when they start selling unlocked, it will be pricey(I assume)

The rumored Eos looks interesting(and cheaper)
 
Does it even matter whether Pre's an iPhone copycat or not?

With the lines for Pre, the real questions is whether Palm will survive another six months.
 
Let them have their day in the sun. Here what stinks about it:
1) No simultaneous data and voice.
2) No visual voicemail.
3) No onscreen ability to type, especially in landscape mode on web pages- have to keep flipping it up and down to get the hard keyboard.
4) Can't download music over 3G- Sprint won't allow it. Only over WIFI.
5) Can't download podcasts at all. The only way to get is via computer.
6) 8 gig storage max
7) Can't talk on it while charging via USB connection.
8) Smaller screen.
9) Cheapo, tiny keyboard
10) Few apps yet available
11) The battery life is horrible- much worse than iPhone. It sounds like it may be due to the multi-tasking which is why Apple says it has not done it.
12) The screen is plastic, not glass- how long do you think that will last?

One more peeve- the ads for Sprint seem to imply, but not state, it is made for their 4G network. False. The Pre can't even handle 4G at all.
 
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