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You don't have to be an "apple basher" or "palm lover" to like the idea of being able to use a single media management program (for instance itunes) to sync all your devices whether they are apple branded or not. The same would go for any media playing program. Choice and flexibility is good for consumers. Lock in is good for a single company.

Well put, but not allowed stays not allowed, whether other companies or customers like it or not.

It doesn't take an army of developers to code a program that takes your iTunes library and syncs it to the Pre, without syncing directly through iTunes.

With this being so easy and Palm obviously having contracted great developers, I can only conclude that this is a deliberate attempt by Palm to damage Apple's reputation. That or they are REALLY lazy.
 
I know this will upset people...

Are you fan boys retarted?

I dont need to own an iPod to get iTunes... I can download it and use it as my MUSIC MANAGER.... No one wants to install 10 programs just to sync one set of music over all the devices they have. It makes sense to just have one app to manage your music and syncs with everything.

A friend has a PC and i used his WINDOWS media player... You know what... that FREE software lets you sync your music with a freaking USB thumb drive... So, i dont need a zune and can still sync all my music through one program and not 10....

In all reality... Apple still wins by letting the Pre sync up. i use iTunes to BUY music through the music store in which apple still makes SOME profit... Why must apple be a NAZI and only allow me to sync my PURCHASED music with an iPod... (and the first gen didnt even have a SHUFFLE feature, the simplest thing in the world).

Why would i want an iPod anyway... Its just gonna blow up and burn me to death in my sleep...
 
Lol.

Im going to gleefully update the next version of iTunes and any after that... why? No Im not a updateholic, Palm just rub my nerves. It goes against my ethics as a programmer. This isnt the world of FOSS people. The is a proprietary system developed by a closed source company. They "modify" (Read up the meaning of hack, there's a dictionary in spotlight) the Pre so iTunes reads it. Even though they could've easily written a damn script or even asked Apple. (Shock Horror)

Gotcha, then what would you say when they introduce iShoot 50Mpx, and block all the Canons accessing your iPhoto?

"Hey look this is new iShoot megazoom & new even more candy iPhoto'10 - who cares about Pros?"

Or better off they buy AOL, and then block Safari from accessing internets.
"Let them come to us, we are mighty AppleOnLine" :eek::D
 
I know this will upset people...

Are you fan boys retarted?

I dont need to own an iPod to get iTunes... I can download it and use it as my MUSIC MANAGER.... No one wants to install 10 programs just to sync one set of music over all the devices they have. It makes sense to just have one app to manage your music and syncs with everything.

A friend has a PC and i used his WINDOWS media player... You know what... that FREE software lets you sync your music with a freaking USB thumb drive... So, i dont need a zune and can still sync all my music through one program and not 10....

In all reality... Apple still wins by letting the Pre sync up. i use iTunes to BUY music through the music store in which apple still makes SOME profit... Why must apple be a NAZI and only allow me to sync my PURCHASED music with an iPod... (and the first gen didnt even have a SHUFFLE feature, the simplest thing in the world).

Why would i want an iPod anyway... Its just gonna blow up and burn me to death in my sleep...

I wonder how many noobs registered for MacRumors Forums today just to post garbage like this troll?

Where do I start? "Retarted"? Do I need to point out the irony there?

And if you are so impressed with your buddy's PC and WMP, then you can always run out and buy yourself a Dell or some other Winblows virus-magnet. Knock yourself out.

Last but not least, drag out the "exploding iPod" myth, and there we have it...troll complete. Congrats, "Fro" your credibility here is now non-existent. Hope you at least got your lulz!
 
... I can only conclude that this is a deliberate attempt by Palm to damage Apple's reputation ...

You can't damage their reputation even more in my eyes, company who doesn't give a ***** what it's loyal customers want (Hi-Def screens), and taking away even that little that we had (matte screens, express cards).

I love Apple, it got me hooked so I can't go back
But I hate it for forcing me to have what "popular demand" wants, with no (extra paid) choice :mad::mad::mad::mad:

I think I hate that it evolves from true Pro/Geeks products company, into "Pro/Geeks" impersonators type of company.
 
You can't damage their reputation even more in my eyes, company who doesn't give a ***** what it's loyal customers want (Hi-Def screens), and taking away even that little that we had (matte screens, express cards).

You can be sure that Apple looks very carefully at what customers want, but Apple is in it for the money, so they look to the masses. Very few people use express cards, most people prefer glossy screens, and many people think the resolution in the MB and MBP is good enough.

The fact that Apples products are selling like crazy at the moment, means that they are doing something right in the eyes of many existing and new customers.

Each electronic appliance I own has some features that I don't use, or misses features that I would like to have. Apple cannot cater to the specific needs of each and every customer.

If you are that much dissatisfied with Apple products than you should look for another manufacturer that does satisfy your demands. Of course you will have the trade-off that you will not have OS X.
 
You can be sure that Apple looks very carefully at what customers want
If they do, then I think they are in the business of torturing people :(

Apple is in it for the money ... The fact that Apples products are selling like crazy at the moment
Yeah I heard that tired rhetoric times & times ...
Yet you fail to factor a [sane;)] group of people holding on to older Macs, because new ones lack features, or still lag behind industry's offerings.
These people:
1) Vocal in their dissent & spit anger (look at me:p) = bad PR!
2) Still want to buy Apple's stuff, and even pay extra for features they want!

All this means that they don't listen, but rather profile & then trim it to a SJ's distorted image of the world. Where those who don't get it are loosers & don't deserve attention.

means that they are doing something right in the eyes of many existing and new customers.
Each electronic appliance I own has some features that I don't use, or misses features that I would like to have.
Apple cannot cater to the specific needs of each and every customer.

How come then they buckle under pressure, and bring back FW, get out of their way/design du jour/ and allow antiglare on MBP'17"? (And isn't it stupid to even think that Pros can buy 17" but not 13")

If you are that much dissatisfied with Apple products than you should look for another manufacturer that does satisfy your demands.
How come it's not nazi?

Apple probably the only company who does get Design, and I love and adore both Apple & SJ, and won't go anywhere.
I only wonder if Genius should always be so stubbornly moronic?
Would YOU love it less if it would have all the options on the market CTO.
Would you be really lost and cry, at online Apple store where in addition to 3 standard models you had a chance to configure your dream machine?

I long have this dream that SJ' would look at his own CTO AMG and realize - SOME people want it different!!!
 
can't apple keep track of how many Pre's are registering with itunes?

why can't they just charge them a license fee for each phone allowing them access to itunes. it would just increase itunes sales in the long run no?
 
I have a University of Edinburgh staff card. Queen Margaret University library has some books that I want to read. I could go to the University of Edinburgh library and fill out an inter-library loan request so that I could read the books, but that seems like a lot of hassle, so instead I make a fake QMU staff card so that I can go into their library to read the books. QMU security staff cotton on to the fact that a few people seem to be gaining entry to their library using fake IDs, so they change their badging system. In response, I make a new fake ID so that I can continue to gain access. Also, I instruct my solicitor to sue QMU for denying me access to their library by obfuscating their security so that I have to keep creating new fake IDs.

Now, the ideal situation for me would be for University of Edinburgh and Queen Margaret University to enter into some kind of agreement whereby their staff and students can use both libraries. That would require both Universities to play nice together which, as it happens, they are doing now. In the absence of such an agreement, I would say that my strategy of making fake IDs is completely in the wrong.
 
Why is it that many people are saying Apple are a monopoly, then the only argument against it is that a monopoly has to be completely exclusive.

So that basically means Microsoft is not, and was never a monopoly. So that if they prevented a competitor's product (Safari or iTunes) from working on their software (windows) then it'd be fine with everyone?

Monopoly is about being able to force people what you want.

The iTunes music store is no monopoly. They seem to have 20 percent of the music market in the USA, but it doesn't actually matter too much what their market share is, because there is nothing whatsoever that prevents you from using alternatives, like records stores, online record stores, other online stores selling downloadable music.

Windows has about 90 percent market share. Microsoft Office has enormous market share. Many people cannot use a word processor other than Microsoft Word because they cannot send their documents to others to read. This is where you have a monopoly: The fact alone that Microsoft sells so many copies of Word means that it would better for me to buy it as well. If I found a better and cheaper word processor for sale, I might not be able to buy it because so many people use Word. That makes it a monopoly.

Compare this situation with the iPod: No matter how many people have an iPod, even if it was 99%, that wouldn't make any difference to a customer. If you want to buy a Zune, the fact that everyone else has an iPod doesn't make any difference to you. No matter what market share each manufacturer has, you can make your decision based solely on merit of the device, and what others decided doesn't make any difference. Or take a TV, or a car: You are free to buy the one that suits you best. It doesn't matter to you one bit what anyone else drives, or what TV everyone else watches.
 
Monopoly is about being able to force people what you want.

The iTunes music store is no monopoly. They seem to have 20 percent of the music market in the USA, but it doesn't actually matter too much what their market share is, because there is nothing whatsoever that prevents you from using alternatives, like records stores, online record stores, other online stores selling downloadable music.

Windows has about 90 percent market share. Microsoft Office has enormous market share. Many people cannot use a word processor other than Microsoft Word because they cannot send their documents to others to read. This is where you have a monopoly: The fact alone that Microsoft sells so many copies of Word means that it would better for me to buy it as well. If I found a better and cheaper word processor for sale, I might not be able to buy it because so many people use Word. That makes it a monopoly.

Compare this situation with the iPod: No matter how many people have an iPod, even if it was 99%, that wouldn't make any difference to a customer. If you want to buy a Zune, the fact that everyone else has an iPod doesn't make any difference to you. No matter what market share each manufacturer has, you can make your decision based solely on merit of the device, and what others decided doesn't make any difference. Or take a TV, or a car: You are free to buy the one that suits you best. It doesn't matter to you one bit what anyone else drives, or what TV everyone else watches.

This is bull... again - you can get Open Office or whatever there is, and convert files back and forth. Hence if they (users of nonMSFT products) managed to survive - than MSFT is no monopoly.

It all boils down to ability to tame your greed (and in the case of Apple : arrogance) and put the users first.
If you only nice to people after you took care of locking them in first - then how it's not evil - even if legit.

We are not lawyers here, OK, stop all this bull who's monopoly or who's not.
All charges can be easily worked out if there is a will, not evil.
And stop saying that - being nice to end users - gets in the way of making money. It's true [such thinking] only if you are lazy & backwards, and a good sign of corrupt incumbency.
 
Yeah I heard that tired rhetoric times & times ...
Yet you fail to factor a [sane;)] group of people holding on to older Macs, because new ones lack features, or still lag behind industry's offerings.
These people:
1) Vocal in their dissent & spit anger (look at me:p) = bad PR!

A few hundred or even a few thousand on a few discussion boards (whether they are sane or not) don't mean anything against the hundreds of thousands that are satisfied. You apparently are a member of a too small group for Apple to care. Or you are channeling your critique in the wrong spot or in the wrong way...

All this means that they don't listen, but rather profile & then trim it to a SJ's distorted image of the world. Where those who don't get it are loosers & don't deserve attention.

How come then they buckle under pressure, and bring back FW, get out of their way/design du jour/ and allow antiglare on MBP'17"? (And isn't it stupid to even think that Pros can buy 17" but not 13")

They listen/they don't listen.. Make up your mind. If you gather a group of a hundred thousand people that will guarantee to pay Apple to build matte displays on a 15", than I'm sure you will get it.

How come it's not nazi?

Read up on your history and learn to use the word Nazi in situations where it applies. The only thing Hitler and Apple have in common is that they didn't/don't sell matte displays on 15" MacBook Pro's.

Apple probably the only company who does get Design, and I love and adore both Apple & SJ, and won't go anywhere.
I only wonder if Genius should always be so stubbornly moronic?

So they "get it" but are still morons. Your argumentation is all over the place.:rolleyes:

It seems like you are waiting for Apple to become something they are not. Expect Apple to evolve more into a company that is catering to the masses as they grow. This is what all large corporations do. They are not anymore a small company that can afford to listen to each and every customer separately.

The companies that do are failing at it as they grow. Look at Nokia that sell 100!! different cellphone models at any time. 90% of these are crap because quality assurance is impossible that way and design can't keep up.

It sounds like you are the right customer for a small computer workshop that caters to your specific needs. I'm sure they will do anything for money. If you lay it down, they would paper-mache the butt of Jennifer Lopez (Or George Clooney, whatever is your fancy) on top of the case (with a choice of matt or glossy). The design would go out of the door, but unless your name is Steve Jobs, you can't have it all as far as Apple products are concerned. Try to live with it.

And as far as your monopoly argumentation goes... Gnasher729 is right and you are not. There is a definition for a monopoly and it is used by courts to determine whether a company has one. It takes research and lawyers to determine a monopoly and it is not determined by the feelings of posters on a discussion board.
 
The only reason they are doing this is for their names to be in the news, companies in desperate situations do desperate things.

Yes, that is a great point but surely they are not so desperate as to taint their name by doing something that is wrong.

I am not up on legalities and such, but I know that Palm can't be right in what they are doing here. I'm sure they have been wrongly advised over this matter because they seem confident in breaking the rules. There are no possible loopholes for them to jump through here, what they are doing is opening themselves up to becoming bankrupt through legal battles.

They need to develop something of their own and fast before Apple rip them a new ******.

One thing Palm can be grateful of is that people are talking about them... Its a shame that most of it is negative really. Press is press, though, I guess.

Apple all the way baby! :apple::apple::apple:;):p:rolleyes:
 
Read up on your history and learn to use the word Nazi in situations where it applies. The only thing Hitler and Apple have in common is that they didn't/don't sell matte displays on 15" MacBook Pro's.

Now you tell me that "mean" doesn't apply here ... blah blah blah.

Fire up your spotlight for 'nazi' - from Dictionary it means (amongst other things of course):
"Brutally act according to one's authoritarian views"

You apparently are a member of a too small group for Apple to care

Is it that (business sense), or arrogance really.
As many of the companies who combined have 9% of $1000+ laptop market share still offer choice, especially in premium segment


Expect Apple to evolve more into a company that is catering to the masses as they grow. This is what all large corporations do.
Yeah, ever heard HP, Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo having 7 configs of laptops in total? Let alone Acer & ASUS.
Thanks God/SJ, we can fiddle with RAM/HDD/CPU a bit.

It seems like you are waiting for Apple to become something they are not.

I don't want them to become ASUS, but I don't want them to become one size fits all - eat this because [we decided] that you don't want choice.
 
Fire up your spotlight for 'nazi' - from Dictionary it means (amongst other things of course):
"Brutally act according to one's authoritarian views"

I looked it up and you quoted it only half:
a person who holds and acts brutally in accordance with extreme racist or authoritarian views.

I'm of the opinion that you are using the word Nazi here in the wrong context, even if it says this in the dictionary. I also don't see any brutal acts here. There is a reason why it says "derogatory" next to it. Try to keep your feelings out of the argumentation.

I'm sure that if I were Apple or any other company and would look at your requests (demands), and reading me associated with Nazis, would not get you very far on the top of my list to fulfill your needs.

I don't want them to become ASUS, but I don't want them to become one size fits all - eat this because [we decided] that you don't want choice.

Again, Apple doesn't sound like the right computer manufacturer for your needs. Take your business elsewhere and make them feel it.
 
I also don't see any brutal acts here. There is a reason why it says "derogatory" next to it. Try to keep your feelings out of the argumentation.

I'm sure that if I were Apple or any other company and would look at your requests (demands), and reading me associated with Nazis, would not get you very far on the top of my list to fulfill your needs.

Again, Apple doesn't sound like the right computer manufacturer for your needs. Take your business elsewhere and make them feel it.

Oh, and it is again you not being mean or authoritarian ...

I looked it up and you quoted it only half
Do you understand what OR means?


I'm of the opinion that you are using the word Nazi here in the wrong context, even if it says this in the dictionary.

The word Nazi is a short for Nationalsozialist (supporter of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) in the German language. This means "National Socialist German Workers' Party".

But we [people] like to use things in a new ways, hence "grammar nazi", and other less known and pronounced uses.
But Apple nazis don't like when we [people] reuse things we paid for, in the ways we like it of course.

... You clearly not working for Apple, and it's clear that you not simply "explaining" how things work for some clueless lost soul.
So I wonder why you so protective of Apple, why you seek to justify their uptightness?
(Short of you holding their stock :confused:)

monopoly: the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service
This also means that virtually no company is really monopolistic (being "legal nazi" :p)
Yet we [people], actually you/they? [europeans] - managed to show us the way, in how to treat MSFT, Intel & the likes.
P.S. And given non of them fitting strict/nazi?:p definition of monopoly, it opens the way to teach Apple the lesson in humility? :)
 
Ooooh now I'm confused, but as a noob to this forum here's my opinion

"It's all down to perspective!"

:mad:Palm are wrong, these are hostile business moves
:pApple are right to block, this is a threat to their business model
From the point of business ethics, they are trying to sell their product off the back of a service that apple believe is their monopoly.

No doubt apples business plan shows a break even point where they had to sell number of IPods/IPhones before they would have cleared any money payed out to the Music Industry in terms of licensing. So the business model would have included "ITunes Store" "ITunes Software" and "IPod Hardware" as parts of a symbiotic system.

Having some jerk selling other hardware, therefore would affect apples ability to offer music at the price that it does!

:)Palm are right, everyone should be invited to the party.
:mad:Apple are wrong, how dare they discriminate and monopolise!
From a customer point of view, I might love ITunes Selection of music, and understand that to access it I MUST use their ITunes software, but there are plenty of legitimate reasons for picking something other than an IPhone,

Hey, if Walmart bought Ford, and wanted to sell more cars, would they be morally right for turning away anyone trying to drive a Toyota into their parking lot? That's discrimination!


I mean the argument that they cannot guarantee the user experience with non-Idevices is just wrong.... Its a straight forward usb file transfer, OSX can transfer files to USB sticks, its not that complicated.


Conclusion
I suppose it comes down to this....

If apple were to say that they're only allowing apple devices into the store because it's their business model is finely balanced around having to sell Ipods to give low music costs to the consumer :), or guarantee licensing conditions to the music suits :mad: Then thats fair enough, since by not preserving the lock-in the whole system would fail. They have the consumer in mind.

If however apple were to say that the "ITunes Store" part of the business and "IPod Hardware" business were both self sufficient, then by definition the aren't reliant on each other for survival it would be more like they were trying to dominate. That means they are running a monopoly where they hold their own profits far above the consumers happiness.

(Thats where the European authorities will cry "Monopoly", and apple would get the microsoft treatment!)

One mans "Symbiotic" and "Synergistic" is another mans "Monopolistic", "Cartel". They are both right, they are both wrong.

  • If apple would be badly hurt by Pre getting in, then I side with apple.
  • If apple just made a bit 0.5% less profit of their huge Ipod sales, then I'm a'gin them.


Just for reference,
I don't own any apple gear, but have bought the 16Gb Nano, and the 32Gb Iphone 3Gs as presents for my non-tech girlfriend. She loves them!

I'm using a 5 year old laptop with Ubuntu, Want a change, hear good things about Windows 7, but really like the 13" MacBook. (And colleagues are giving me a hard time for even considering 'overpriced' apple.)
 
Sorry for being off-topic

@EspressoLove

It's too bad that you live somewhere in a Gay Area (according to your profile) and I live in Amsterdam (also a quite gay area, btw). I would love to show you why it's incredibly inappropriate to use the word Nazi in whatever context other than the historical one. For that you would have to come over to Europe and see the concentration camp museums, or the Anne Frank house here in Amsterdam.

If you are gay, than I would suggest you look up what the Nazi regime did here to gay people. Maybe then you would see why using Nazi or whatever derivative you or anyone else made up is inappropriate.

Consider yourself ignored by me from now on.

Again, sorry to the other readers here for being off-topic.
 
My take on this is that Palm is trying to provoke Apple into some sort of legal action. Once Apple sues, Palm will probably counter-sue and claim that Apple has used some of Palm's patented bits in the iPhone.

There are a few ex-Apple employees working at Palm these days, and they have some knowledge of the way Apple developed the iPhone.

This could turn out to be not so much Apple-v-Psystar as Apple-v-Microsoft but with roles reversed.
 
Palm is acting like a bigger version of Psystar, making decisions that just seems illogical. Also it seems that some of the employees that went there from Apple are using trade secrets. Remember when Tim Cook said months ago they wouldn't take kindly to competition using their IP, I think he must have known about this beforehand. Apple probably waited for the Pre to go on sale and are building a case against them. Something like this has never been attempted before, this about to get nasty.
 
My take on this is that Palm is trying to provoke Apple into some sort of legal action. Once Apple sues, Palm will probably counter-sue and claim that Apple has used some of Palm's patented bits in the iPhone.

There are a few ex-Apple employees working at Palm these days, and they have some knowledge of the way Apple developed the iPhone.

This could turn out to be not so much Apple-v-Psystar as Apple-v-Microsoft but with roles reversed.

We'll see if Palm has the resorces for a long winding lawsuit.
 
People seem to be confused here between what they would like, what would be nice and convenient, and what the actual legal position is.

I am not a legal expert, but from the information we have at our disposal it would appear to be very clear that Apple is in the right here, and Palm is in the wrong.

Of course it would be nice for the Palm Pre to be able to use iTunes - and having spent a number of years struggling with HotSync I have to admit that were I still a Palm customer I would have no confidence that Palm would be able to produce an application of similar utility. I understand entirely why Palm customers want to be able to sync with iTunes, and I agree completely that it would be nice for Apple to let them.

But that's not the case at the moment. What would be nice and what actually is are two different things. Apple may be being mean to Palm customers in your eyes, but they are also in the right. Palm may be right that their customers would benefit from connecting to iTunes, but their method of enabling that is wrong.
 
One should think that if they were confident enough in their product line Apple wouldn´t care about this.
But they sure do

Apple doesn't want to be responsible for providing support and making their software work with other manufacturers products. Why is that so hard to understand. Apple has every right to limit iTunes use to hardware in makes and controls. If Palm wants to compete it should spend the money writing it's own software.
 
I wonder how many noobs registered for MacRumors Forums today just to post garbage like this troll?

Where do I start? "Retarted"? Do I need to point out the irony there?

And if you are so impressed with your buddy's PC and WMP, then you can always run out and buy yourself a Dell or some other Winblows virus-magnet. Knock yourself out.

Last but not least, drag out the "exploding iPod" myth, and there we have it...troll complete. Congrats, "Fro" your credibility here is now non-existent. Hope you at least got your lulz!

that might be because you always call people troll when they disagree with you.

His point of MS being much more open than apple in this situation is sound and valid. You dont have an argument against that, so you accuse him being troll, told him to buy a pc. etc,etc.

You whole post has nothing todo with the topic, but everything todo with the person you are talking about, that, is trolling.

you yourself used much worse words before, Im not here that frequently to know if you got banned for those vicious attacks, but I hope you learn something from those.

if you can't be level headed in a heated discussion, maybe you should just avoid it, there are enough firepower from both sides, yours are not a necessity.
 
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