Palm trying to 1-up Apple's [potential] iPhone Release?

[tomhut]

To be honest, the Pre's multi-tasking is not a whole lot more than having multiple pages open on Mobile Safari, (even the interface is staggeringly similar) the reason the Pre can run so many apps simultaneously is that the Apps are no more than glorified web pages, technically, just a little bit above the iPhone's Web Apps, (even the Pre SDK simulator is just a modified webkit view!)
This seriously limits what developers can do, especially with graphics as they cant access the GPU! (just as an example, games will be most lightly out of the question for the most part)

Dont get me wrong, the Pre is a cool device and Palm have taken an interesting angle, but for me personally, id rather have push, giving a sort of pseudo-multitasking effect and not have applications gimped hugely by the SDK.

 

[clevin]

To be honest, the Pre's multi-tasking is not a whole lot more than having multiple pages open on Mobile Safari, (even the interface is staggeringly similar) the reason the Pre can run so many apps simultaneously is that the Apps are no more than glorified web pages, technically, just a little bit above the iPhone's Web Apps, (even the Pre SDK simulator is just a modified webkit view!).

its not a picture hanging there like iphone's safari, each card is live and running! inside the card! shape might be similar, but there aren't many stuff out on the computer that isn't square....

not to mention, what is the biggest advantage of multi-tasking? you can work on net, IM, email, office, music, simultaneously! switch between them, absolutely no interruption of each other's flow. Try that on your iphone, or your mobile safari.

Glorified webpages? no, I should say iPhone itself is just a glorified apple launcher. just like the concept in treo by palm 7 years ago. Now thats a more proper comparison.

 

[DHarrisDBS34]

I'm glad the Pre is getting a lot of hype. Competition is great for Apple. Now they're forced to stay ahead of the curve and make their product better. It's better for us as a whole as the consumer.

 

[tomhut]

you need to pay attention to it, its not a picture hanging there like iphone's safari, each card is live and running! inside the card!

not to mention, what is the biggest advantage of multi-tasking? you can work on net, IM, email, office, music, simultaneously! Try that on your iphone, or your mobile safari. lol

Glorified webpages? lol, should I say iPhone itself is just a glorified apple launcher? just like the concept in treo by palm 7 years ago? Now thats a more proper comparison.

Well you cant work on them simultaneously, as the screen is only big enough to display one App at a time...

and yes, the Pre's apps are nothing but glorified websites.

 

[clevin]

Well you cant work on them simultaneously, as the screen is only big enough to display one App at a time...

by simultaneously, i mean work flow is parallel, just like my netbook, its screen isn't large enough to run browser and office together neither. But I can interchange between the two, search info online, write the report, maybe IM my friends about the progress of the report, without quitting one app and then open another. and then open another again...

Simultaneous work flow, that is. Even on computer, nobody can do two things at the split second, but work flow are simultaneous.

take a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrxJjunJR4k

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBe9fCWoD7g

 

[tomhut]

by simultaneously, i mean work flow is parallel, just like my netbook, its screen isn't large enough to run browser and office together neither. But I can interchange between the two, search info online, write the report, maybe IM my friends about the progress of the report, without quitting one app and then open another. and then open another again...

Simultaneous work flow, that is. Even on computer, nobody can do two things at the split second, but work flow are simultaneous.

Personally id rather wait the extra second or 2 it takes to go to the home screen and launch a different app if it means they arnt going to be limited to localised Websites.

Palm have a great multi-tasking UI and Apple have put together an amazing OS / SDK, unfortunately with todays CPU's and batteries, you cant have it both ways yet.

 

[clevin]

Personally id rather wait the extra second or 2 it takes to go to the home screen and launch a different app if it means they arnt going to be limited to localised Websites..

except its not.

the language used is HTML 5 and JS, doesn't mean they are websites stored on the device. Currently most JS engine is producing machine codes, it runs almost as fast as natives.

There is an interview with Pandora's developer, who explicitly emphasized that people shouldn't confuse language as webpages.

Well, I think one of the important little nuances here to understand is that you might think from the name "webOS" and from the technologies used – HTML and CSS and Javascript – you might think that this is the whole thing, just kind of a fancy web browser, and that you're – y'know, any interaction you take is interacting with web content. That's really not how it works at all. What you really have, is that you have an environment where a developer can write a traditional application – so, an application that gets installed onto the phone with all its code and all of its user interface elements and that is actually local to the phone. There's also a database and file storage that allows you to take data from the internet connection and store it locally – so when you're browsing your contacts, for example, you're interacting with an application that's local to the phone, with interface elements that are local to the phone and with contacts that are actually sitting on the phone.

What makes it this "webOS" is that the programming models for your developer rather than being C or Java is really just HTML and CSS and Javascript. So you can take a developer who's been developing web applications and quickly get them productive in the webOS SDK, leveraging their familiarity with these web-based standards. And that decision is one of the reasons we were able to get, very very quickly, a version of Pandora up and running. We were able to take one of our star web developers – someone who has never touched the Palm webOS and not done mobile development before – and have that person be immediately productive because it's all based on systems that they're familiar with from web development.

 

[tomhut]

except its not.

the language used is HTML 5 and JS, doesn't mean they are websites stored on the device. Currently most JS engine is producing machine codes, it runs almost as fast as natives.

There is an interview with Pandora's developer, who explicitly emphasized that people shouldn't confuse language as webpages.

Languages and the paradigms they limit developers to can be as limiting as the way the SDK handles them itself, Still dosnt allow any access to the GPU.
I used the term "glorified websites" to capture what they really are, a collection of files written in languages which are mostly interpreted in real time (another thing that will limit the app using the devices full potential) which are usually reserved for use in HTTP.

 

[milani]

welcome, wishful thinking apple lover from the future!

run out of RAM! crash out! battery last 2 hours! Seems like you have quite clear a picture about apple's capability already! And since NOBODY can do better than apple! you sure can SAFEly assume Pre is going to die!

Doesn't that sounds a bit desperate?

good luck with your wishful hatred. Too bad there are actually companies that CAN make multi-tasking phones.

Soaking in the apples RDF for too long isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least wishful thinking still have your hack, when reality fails you.

calling stone age single app approach of apple as "innovative", haha, I guess when apple say black is white, you would pretend not to see your finger in the day light then. what a joke.

If only you knew me, you would know that I'm not in any way an Apple apologist. In fact, I have a problem with many things they do, especially concerning the iPhone. However, I will give credit where credit is due. If you can't understand why hand-held devices shouldn't opt for conventional desktop multitasking then you're so hopelessly lost that there is no point in continuing the discussion.

And by the way, my post was based on reports that surfaced that highlighted the problems associated with the Pre's conventional multitasking setup. I'm only repeating what Palm already said.

P.S. Why is your avatar a Netscape logo?

 

[clevin]

Languages and the paradigms they limit developers to can be as limiting as the way the SDK handles them itself, Still dosnt allow any access to the GPU.
I used the term "glorified websites" to capture what they really are, a collection of files written in languages which are mostly interpreted in real time (another thing that will limit the app using the devices full potential) which are usually reserved for use in HTTP.

I just dont know how you can call pandora and classic OS emulator or office suite as webpages. But hey, if glorified webpages can do that much and meet nearly all cell phone users' usage, AND providing desktop-level multi-tasking, and accomplish most dektop level tasks, I guess thats good enough!

Open up low level hardware for gaming would be great, but I see no reason to compete with PSP, at least not at first. I doubt most people play significant amount of games on their phones anyway, now thats a battery killer for sure.

If only you knew me, you would know that I'm not in any way an Apple apologist. In fact, I have a problem with many things they do, especially concerning the iPhone. However, I will give credit where credit is due. If you can't understand why hand-held devices shouldn't opt for conventional desktop multitasking then you're so hopelessly lost that there is no point in continuing the discussion.

And by the way, my post was based on reports that surfaced that highlighted the problems associated with the Pre's conventional multitasking setup. I'm only repeating what Palm already said.

P.S. Why is your avatar a Netscape logo?

I never target individual person, I only target argument and reasoning. Its very likely I will stand with you in some other discussions.

But, If you want to convince me that something that haven't even been tried by ANYBODY is already proven "bad". Sorry, I wont buy that.

But I guess we wont be waiting for too long to find out the fact. It will be out very soon. We shall see. Before that, I have every reason to be positive since almost all reviews I saw about the pre are reasonable, positive, and honest.

You are welcome to share links tho, I would love to read more articles about it. As long as its not from notorious apple fanboy websites such as RD or MDN.

Im a netscape fanboy, so I used it whenever I can.

 

[tomhut]

Will be interesting to see how it works in real life and if they grow a substantial app ecosystem. Also details on an international GSM launch would be very much appreciated Palm, none of this CDMA North American nonsense (joking!)

 

[t0mat0]

What's to stop Apple taking Pre's approach using whatever tech they need (SproutCore /HTML 5 / other?)
and implement it also? If it is really just "HTML and CSS and Javascript"? Apple could change how they do web apps?

Couldn't Apple then replicate the multitasking on this environment, but have the apps currently used to only run one at a time, and then make swapping between them easier?
I guess what i'm wondering is = How hard would it be to replicate Pre's WebOS?

 

[redman042]

I really don't see whats so "amazing" about the app store. Sure it is convenient and nice..but "amazing"..no way. Some here get overly excited at small things..sheesh

I was referring to the app selection, not the store itself. Even when you strip away all the crap applications, there is a very nice selection of top-quality applications for very low prices. This is unmatched by any other phone. What is most amazing is what you can do with some of these apps. There's almost no limit to what is possible, and how some of these apps really increase the usefulness of the phone.

 

[kdarling]

The Pre's multitasking is going to be its downfall. I can't wait to see real world battery life, or when primary apps like the phone run out of ram and crash out.

Or not. Palm hired the engineer who did the basic iPod operating system. He has a good rep.

And have you even seen the 10+ step process to try to free up ram that Palm posted? It's laughable, to be honest.

The Pre steps are: flick some apps off the screen to stop them. And if that doesn't work, go to a control section and click a button to clear memory.

If that's too complicated for you, then compare to Apple's instructions to get around weird bugs by doing a restore (reload) of the entire OS!! Now that's funny.

... While it was surely necessary simply because the ram is too weak to support multitasking in a conventional way, the result is that Apple was forced to develop something that makes far more sense in a mobile context.

More like forced to borrow. Java mobile has had a background notification registry for years. Blackberry's have used push servers for years.

The difference here is, developers who wish to use the Apple scheme must invest in their own servers with registration and notification databases. Kind of cuts into regular developers giving out free apps.

The Apple method is okay for some things, but in no way can it be considered a substitute for multitasking... which has been available in the "mobile context" for a very long time. Mobile isn't rocket science, and it isn't new.

 

[iphoneCDN]

Bell Mobility in Canada announced they are going to be selling the Palm Pre in the second half of 2008. The next day, Rogers Wireless states that they will be selling Android handsets on June 2nd.

Palm will be a niche market, for people who "don't want iPhones". I don't know what the long term support will be for the Pre if Palm doesn't make it through the gates though.

 

[pavvento]

This is good news. The more competition the better it is for consumers. IMHO cell phone plans are way too expensive now. I am hoping that cricket, who offers unlimited voice and text plan starting at $40, takes away alot of customers from the major carriers.

Logically and realistically I completely agree. Unfortunately the average Apple, and IMO even worse, iPhone fanboy can't be happy unless the iPhone is proven to be head and shoulders above the competition. And by competition of course we mean another laughed off product.

 

[Nermal]

Sprint is the only thing that sucks about the phone. What palm was thinking... ill never know.

If this was on AT&T, I might think about it...

My opinion is quite the opposite. There aren't many CDMA smartphones at the moment (Blackberry is the only one I can think of), so Palm could potentially grab a lot of existing CDMA customers with this phone.

Bell Mobility in Canada announced they are going to be selling the Palm Pre in the second half of 2008. The next day, Rogers Wireless states that they will be selling Android handsets on June 2nd.

It's good to see that there's at least one international deal available. I expect to be in the smartphone market soon, and I'm already on CDMA, so a Pre may be a good choice for me.

Edit: Does anyone know what frequencies the phone uses? We have an 800 MHz network here.

 

[CocoaPuffs]

It won't matter how good Pre is simply by looking at it from marketing perspective. Have you ever seen people waiting in line for 10 hours to get a phone all across the country even a week after launch?

Pre has nothing on iPhone.

 

[kas23]

and yes, the Pre's apps are nothing but glorified websites.

Cool. Can I then get these "glorified websites" (if that's all they really are) to work on my iPhone?

 

[Eso]

The Pre's multitasking is going to be its downfall. I can't wait to see real world battery life, or when primary apps like the phone run out of ram and crash out.

I can't wait to see it in person just to try out how effective the card system of app switching is. Half of the iPhone apps I use don't start where they left off when I close them. People scoff at WebOS and HTML/CSS/Javascript apps but I think they will be surprised at just what they will be able to do. They will also have the benefit of being extremely light on resources. The total size of all the content required to display Apple.com is 426 KB - the HTML file itself is only 183 lines! iPhone OS 2.2.1 uses almost 50% of the available memory from right from boot-up.

I would love full multitasking support as much as the next person, but modern battery technology is just too far behind to support it I'm afraid.

Despite what Apple would have you believe, battery life is mainly affected by CPU and wireless signal usage - multitasking or not. Apple claims 5 hour battery life for calls/web browsing - both continuous CPU intensive tasks. Whether or not the CPU is being loading by one app or five, it is the same.

The current interpretation of multitasking on a computer is to have multiple applications running at the same time, equally sucking ram and slowing down the system. When you think about it, this is a pretty archaic way to run most applications, especially in terms of notifications.

Why is it archaic? Here I am running MS Excel (9-sheet file), MS Word (3 page document), and Hulu.com, Apple.com, and Macrumors.com in Firefox using a combined 128 MB of memory - the total amount of RAM in the iPhone. I do agree that having to run multiple apps for notifications would be silly, but that is not what we are talking about with multitasking.

...Apple was forced to develop something that makes far more sense in a mobile context. You're always connected, you need applications to push to the phone, so you build a scalable server that can manage push, and in so doing you save ram and battery life. This is a sensible approach to mobile multitasking - running multiple apps all the time really isn't.

The Push system is only suitable for certain types of apps, but it's not very useful for the majority. Any developer that wants to use this as a mutlitasking alternative also has to run their own infrastructure to support it.

"Saving RAM" is non-sensical. You lose nothing by using available memory. In fact, the argument for using as little RAM as possible is actually in support of multitasking. As far as battery life is concerned, motulist probably said it best when he said, "Writing the same amount of data to disk takes a lot more juice than writing it to solid state memory. So in the real world adding ram will reduce overall battery consumption in all except the most unusual of circumstances."

The concept of multitasking is not running multiple apps all the time. Perhaps this is the root of all your difficulties with multitasking. In any case, Push is hardly a suitable substitute to multitasking, but it is a solution to a few notification problems, at least.

Have you ever seen people waiting in line for 10 hours to get a phone all across the country even a week after launch?

Have you ever heard of Tickle Me Elmo? Pogs? Razor scooters? Tamagotchi? Beanie Babies? If not, then you'll get my point. They are fads: consumers get hyped up and do things like waiting in line all night to buy. It's somewhat of a social phenomenon that relates little to the merits of the product. The hype eventually dies down and gets forgotten - which isn't to say that no one buys Elmo dolls anymore (or won't still buy the iPhone).

 

[tomhut]

Cool. Can I then get these "glorified websites" (if that's all they really are) to work on my iPhone?

Sure
http://www.apple.com/webapps/

Anyway apps and os aside, I haven't heard much of a buzz about the pre outside the technical community, nothing compared to what the iPhone produced anyway, even my grandma had heard of it!

 

[kas23]

Sure
http://www.apple.com/webapps/

Anyway apps and os aside, I haven't heard much of a buzz about the pre outside the technical community, nothing compared to what the iPhone produced anyway, even my grandma had heard of it!

No, I want a Pandora web app. Where's that? If Apple wants to improve these web apps and actually make them useful, I'm all for it. Apple can take a page from the Pre and develop some very nice apps to run through Safari, which is already running in the background already. Oh yeah, and develop a lightweight Flash too.

 

[clevin]

What's to stop Apple taking Pre's approach using whatever tech they need (SproutCore /HTML 5 / other?)
and implement it also? If it is really just "HTML and CSS and Javascript"? Apple could change how they do web apps?

Couldn't Apple then replicate the multitasking on this environment, but have the apps currently used to only run one at a time, and then make swapping between them easier?
I guess what i'm wondering is = How hard would it be to replicate Pre's WebOS?

apparently its hard enough that whenever apple tried, they end up with 2 hour battery life!

Turn on any computer, any OS, you know the largest resource hog is the system itself. Apple isn't capable of slim down OSX to fit the phone, plain, and simple.

I think apple is relying on "waiting" strategy, they are just wait for more powerful battery less energy consuming hardwares. Thats fine, but I think thats at least 2 years away.

People shouldn't overestimate apple's software developing strength, they can't get security patch out quick, they write a small preview app on top of safari and consumes 4GB+ disk space, they couldn't get leopard's wi-fi right until at least half year after release. They build OSX upon BSD and Unix and its libraries within are years old. They unable to release any partial download for its apps and users have to download hundreds of megabytes of packages for each 0.0.1 software download, for years they couldn't work with adobe to bring a nice solution of flash for its end users. Every intel chip mac users is paying hefty price of their HDD for the universal packages, leopard default installation costs 11GB space. and yes, it couldn't figure out a way to provide users multitasking on their phone without sucking battery out in unacceptable rate.

Apple customers, go demand more from apple.

 

[Mr_Brightside_@]

Has anyone else noticed the misspelling of "Benefit" on the memo/schedule?

 

[Sedulous]

3.0 hardware? no, no, no, no, no, no, iPhone's problem right now is software level problem, you can put a C2D in there, it still doesn't have desktop level multitasking, it still interrupt you every time you start a new work flow.

You've missed something very important about how the pre will achieve its multitasking. There's no magic pixie dust that lets them bend the laws of nature to accomplish something others cannot. Everything on the pre is essentially a web app. So, as you can imagine, the depth of the apps will be quite shallow.