Piracy and Mac OS X

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Choppaface
as to mymemory and people in his sort of situation, it would be convenient if the idealogy of the software license worked everwhere, but some places don't have governments strong enough to promote it. before one attacks the disadvantaged user, one must consider those that are responsible for the conditions that led him to make that decision. if mymemory lived in the US and had the same job here as he does there, he would probably have the potential to pay for the software he uses. where he is now, he most likely does not, unless he were to commit more crimes in order obtain the money needed to pay. these observations boil down to the case of the lesser evil: not getting paid for software that one would not get paid for anyways, or getting paid with dirty money. I do not mean to defend piracy, I mean to question the amount of censure towards pirates. clearly there must be a difference from pirate to pirate; treating all pirates equally overlooks these important differences..

There is no difference from pirate to pirate. Piracy is illegal, that's all there is to it. It doesn't matter what your economic background is, it doesn't matter how corrupt your government is, it doesn't matter how much money you have or how clean or dirty the money you do have is. It doesn't matter what software you're pirating, it doesn't matter how much software you pirate or in what way you pirate it or for how long you pirate it. Piracy = illegal.

You say that mymemory is faced with choosing between two evils: That of not paying for software he wouldn't have paid for anyway or that of paying for the software with "dirty money." In fact, he has a third option, which is to not pay for or use the software at all. Nobody is forcing him into using any software. If his job depends on the pirated software, his job depends on illegal piracy.

I don't have a lot of money, but I want free access to every pay per view and premium channel on television. Does that give me the right to splice the cable line, run it into my house, and attach it to a descrambler? After all, I'm not technically taking anything from anyone - the cable company can't even tell I've done it. Does this make it okay, or right, or in any way not illegal? This is the equivalent of what mymemory is doing.

Alex

 

[balliet]

I think everyone shoud take a look at the justifications for stealing software and try to apply them to hardware, see if they still make sense.

I don't make a lot of money, so I should be able to steal a computer.

I'll never use my desktop and my laptop at the same time, so I should get a laptop for free.

All i want is for me and my wife to be able to use the computer at the same time. Why doesn't apple give me a computer for everyone in my family for the price of one?

Why should I have to buy a whole new computer just for a faster CPU and DDR? Apple should just give me a new computer.

Apple hardware is overpriced. So if I steal a computer from them, they are still making money.

And then there is the argument that software companies are evil, and they make enough money already. That goes for just about any big company. By your logic, I could go around stealing cars and it would be ok.

 

[Cappy]

Originally posted by ptrauber
I don't completely agree. If software was cheaper, I would have no problem buying multiple copies of it. If warcraft III cost only $30, I'd buy one for every computer I own so that I could network it. Not at $60 though.

So not only does piracy drive costs up, but costs drive piracy.

-Pete

That might be for you but typically what people say and what they do with issues like this are two different things. It's all a matter of ease and convenience.

My beef is in not seeing a savings passed down when a developer implements copy protection schemes. Did we see Windows XP or Office XP get any cheaper with product activation now a standard "feature"? Nope. And corporate licenses went up at the same time.

Other developers are just as guilty. Most like to play this silly game but no matter the scenario they price things by what the market calls for. It has little to do with the amount of piracy.

Note I'm not endorsing piracy but many of the developers need to wake up to this rather than even rely on something like Palladium if it makes it to market.

 

[alex_ant]

Re: PLEASE

Originally posted by 3777
I can't believe the crap i'm reading. If I buy software, and then I make copies and give it to a bunch of people, yes that is wrong. But to hear all of these people whine about how I should "buy one OS or program for each computer" PLEASE, if I spend $140 dollars on XP Pro or OSX, I should be able to install it on any damn computer I own. And if there is something in the law that says that is wrong..... then there is something very wrong with the law. And all the Apple and Microsoft employees who disagree with me can go to #ell!!!

If you don't agree with the law then feel free to help change it. If you can't get enough support together, then tough cookies. Violating the law is not an effective measure of protest - it is a self-serving, greedy form of pseudo-protest that is oblivious to the respect of the law. If everyone violated every law they deemed bad, then we would all be living locked in concrete cells to hide from the hordes of maurauding anarchist bandits out to kill us for the gold in our fillings.

Alex

 

[G4scott]

Re: Justification

Originally posted by imacguy
This is just an attempt by Apple to justify their prices for Jaguar. Based on the comments it sounds like it's working.

I wonder what they will try to come up with for the whole .Mac debacle.

I love apple, but announcing both those items on the same day was D-U-M-B marketing!

It might've been dumb from a consumer perspective, but from a business perspective, it was a good move. Apple's going to get $100 bucks from you one way or another in the next couple of months 😛 And if you choose not to upgrade, or use .Mac, or to pirate 10.2, that's your choice, but believe it or not, there are still people in this world who pay for things they use (Of course, I'm not saying this about me, entirely 😉 )

 

[pianojoe]

Re: Re: Re: PLEASE

This discussion is getting way out of hand.

Over here in Germany, it's like this: Usage of software is treated like the usage of a book. Same as one physical copy of a book that can't be read by different people in different places at the same time, you're not allowed to use software that way. You may, however, install a copy on your desktop, and one on your laptop, as long as you're not using them at the same time. (OK, there's no easy way for the sw company to control this. Sorry.) This is the law, and any eula going elsewhere doesn't apply to me. 🙂

Of course, this doesn't apply to OSes. If I sync my iBook to my G4, I'll have two copies running at the same time! I feel that an additional license should be very low-priced, let's say $20.

Another thing: The moment Jaguar comes out, my original X.1 CD becomes virtually worthless. The first MacOS I ever used was System 7. I wonder how often I paid for the Finder in the last ten years? This all comes down to

Apple, find an upgrade price! Don't kick those millions of people in the ass who have been public-beta-testing OS X since 10.0.0 for you!

A word to Pin-Fisher and the "moron" thing posted earlier:

If you can't deal with my limited knowledge of English, feel free to converse in German or French with me.

 

[maluscanis]

Re: PLEASE

Originally posted by 3777
I can't believe the crap i'm reading. If I buy software, and then I make copies and give it to a bunch of people, yes that is wrong. But to hear all of these people whine about how I should "buy one OS or program for each computer" PLEASE, if I spend $140 dollars on XP Pro or OSX, I should be able to install it on any damn computer I own. And if there is something in the law that says that is wrong..... then there is something very wrong with the law. And all the Apple and Microsoft employees who disagree with me can go to #ell!!!

There is a very simple answer to these kind of questions and comments - it is morally wrong to steal software or to not abide by the restrictions placed on the end user by the software company. Unfortunately, this doesn't make the decision to pirate any less tempting.

 

[A. Rastetter]

Originally posted by Pin-Fisher


No trees were killed in the sending of this message.

What about all the trees that were killed strip-mining the coal that powers the generators at the power plant which gives power to your computer and all the server computers your message is going through? 😀

sorry, just had to ask

 

[maluscanis]

Re: PLEASE

Originally posted by 3777
I can't believe the crap i'm reading. If I buy software, and then I make copies and give it to a bunch of people, yes that is wrong. But to hear all of these people whine about how I should "buy one OS or program for each computer" PLEASE, if I spend $140 dollars on XP Pro or OSX, I should be able to install it on any damn computer I own. And if there is something in the law that says that is wrong..... then there is something very wrong with the law. And all the Apple and Microsoft employees who disagree with me can go to #ell!!!

There is a very simple answer to these kind of questions and comments - it is morally wrong to steal software or to not abide by the restrictions placed on the end user by the software company. Unfortunately, this doesn't make the decision to pirate any less tempting.

 

[alex_ant]

Re: Pirates...

Originally posted by elgruga

So a few people (mostly poor people) pirate a lousy disk.

Are you saying that there is any difference between rich and poor under the law? There isn't. If you're poor and you steal something, you're in trouble. If you're rich and you steal something, you're in trouble.

They still have to run it on an old Apple machine. Which they paid for at some point.
All the new Apples have the new software. No pirating there, right?
Oh I forgot, I bought my Tibook 667 in early July - no 10.2 for me.
My f***ing OS only lasted 2 weeks. (true)

Honestly, cry me a ****ing river. If you don't like Apple's software pricing policies, call them and complain. Sign the petition at petitiononline and storm the web boards and newsgroups. You do have plenty of ways to give feedback to Apple to tell them you're not satisfied. And you DO have the option not to use 10.2. Nobody is forcing you to buy it. There was no contract included with your TiBook that said "We owe you a reduced-price copy of Jaguar." If you assumed there would be, then you made a false assumption, and that's your problem, not Apple's. I don't like the Jaguar pricing scheme either but I do understand the difference between LEGAL methods of protest and ILLEGAL methods of protest (piracy).

Old machines running pirate software? Apple should be glad that people are interested enough in their OS to pirate it.
Its a sure sign of success.

As for Application piracy, well, lets face it, $700 for Photoshop is insane.
$150 - maybe.

Look at M$ Office - Bill gates has 400 billion bucks, but he needs more and somehow this is a good thing?

Is what Bill Gates needs any of your business? Does the morality of your purchasing decision hinge in any way on what Bill Gates needs? If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. Complain to Microsoft if you wish. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying, "Buy this overpriced software."

Its time to wake up guys. The world is now dominated by rich and selfish oafs, like gates and Jobs and Martha Stewart etc.
They arent nice people - they are *******s.

Steal their damn stuff if you can - they will Never pay you enough per hour to buy it.

Well, hey, guess what, I don't like you either. So I'm going to raid your bank account and take what I wish, just because I think you're a dick. No other reason. Do I really need another reason? You're ugly and you smell bad, there, those are my reasons for ya. Hope your account is insured.

Photoshop = 140 hours of labor at minimum wage - thats 3 and a half weeks - whoops! no rent or food in Photoshop month!
OS 10.2 = 24 hours of labor - no shoes for the kids this week.
Office X = 60 hours of labor (10 days) - Bill needs his cash.

You want to work for almost 4 weeks to get a copy of Photoshop?

Tell me that it isnt ALL overpriced.

If you think it's overpriced, fine. Nobody is forcing you to use it. So don't use it. "I think this Lexus is overpriced. $40,000? Should be $20k, tops. I'm taking it."

Unwilling owner of about $20,000 bucks worth of legal software that just aint worth the price I paid.

Boo-hoo. You bought it by your own free will, didn't you? Nobody forced you to. You have no one to blame but yourself for your bad purchasing decision.

 

[big]

>I feel that an additional license should be very low-priced, let's say $20

that's what I'm trying to say, in a home environment, this makes sense.

>it is morally wrong to steal software or to not abide by the restrictions placed on the end user by the software company.

ummm,excuse me, I'm so glad you have such a handle on everyone else's life. I for one would rather leave this ruling to higher powers. I know stealing is wrong, though adobe & M$ does it so well, legally.

I'm buying Jaguar, and will install it on two machines. end of story. I will not feel bad for it. When photoshop drops to a reasonable price, I will buy it too!

 

[G4scott]

I remember when Mac users used to be friendly 🙄

We would get along, and make fun of and complain about m$ and dell, but now it seems that everybody is just complaining about Apple... It's sad when you see love for something good ruined by penny-pinchers and tight wads

 

[AlphaTech]

I just thought I would mention something about the piracy issue... Of the software I have installed on my TiBook and home/game pc, I would have to say that almost all of the software on my TiBook are applications that I have purchased. That jumps to all on the game system. I do have one application on my TiBook that I didn't purchase, but that is software that I use mostly for work. It helps that I got approval from work to install it, and can remove it if I need to.

I did purchase a copy of 10.1 when it came out, and got 10.1.4 with my TiBook. I'm not certain, yet, about how, when or if I will purchase 10.2.

Because of the cost of m$ orfice, I refuse to purchase (or use) it for home. I do have Appleworks, which I do use often.

When I was setting up the game pc, I purchased an OEM copy of win2k. It was about 1/2 the cost of the retail version, and is a complete copy (not an update). It's also not tied to a specific installation number, which comes in handy at work. Especially since all the pc's that come in, have OEM installation codes on the case (either on the side for desktops or underneath the laptop). We also have corporate installation codes, for use when we need them (not often at all).

 

[FattyMembrane]

piracy is wrong, plain and simple. but i REALLY hope that apple does not resort to serial numbers and other such devices. the simplistic beauty of setting up a mac was that you didnt have screens popping up every 5 minutes asking you to enter serials, ssns, birthdays, music preference, blood type, etc. when my room mate's pc had one to many blue screens of death, he had to re-install the whole system, and having a paper due the next day, tried to re-install msword, but did not have the serial from his "computer passport" or whatever kind of pamphlet comes with those things. he ended up using my mac. apple has to do what it has to do, but it is tragic that the long running streak of simple installs and simpler backup measures must be ended by a bunch of teenagers with carracho.🙁

 

[big]

>piracy is wrong, plain and simple.

so are the current prices...

damn, I feel like throwing some tea in the bay now

remember, thats what ended the State's relationship with britain

 

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by big
>piracy is wrong, plain and simple.

so are the current prices...

damn, I feel like throwing some tea in the bay now

remember, thats what ended the State's relationship with britain

The difference is that piracy is both morally and legally wrong whereas the current prices are only arguably wrong to some people who can't afford them.

 

[big]

>The difference is that piracy is both morally and legally wrong whereas the current prices are only arguably wrong to some people who can't afford them.

could you be any more hypocritical? who can/will say they can afford them?
will you be the presiding judge to say "OH- you make $12 an hour, your broke, sure, you can steal software"

how are you to judge my actions of buying one copy & installing on two machines? M$ office doesn't care, and puts in the LAN control

will apple? don't know, maybe they started this thread to judge our reactions

 

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by big
>The difference is that piracy is both morally and legally wrong whereas the current prices are only arguably wrong to some people who can't afford them.

could you be any more hypocritical? who can/will say they can afford them?

Sorry, I should have phrased that differently: "The difference is that piracy is both morally and legally wrong whereas the current prices are only morally wrong to some people." People who can & can't afford them, my bad.

I can't afford Photoshop or Office, or even Norton Utilities. But I don't think the prices of any of those products are morally wrong. I can't think of ANY software prices that are morally wrong to me. If a piece of software costs too much, it will be overtaken by less expensive competition.

Too expensive != morally wrong

If you can't afford it, don't buy it. If it's worth it to another company, they'll come in and offer a competing app that you can afford. If not, that's the free market for ya, love it or sail to Cuba.

Alex

 

[big]

sorry, I really dislike it when people tell me what I am doing morally wrong...so it appears though, we both agree big business is just out of their skull, and we definatly need a competitor

 

[3777]

Re: Re: PLEASE

Originally posted by maluscanis


There is a very simple answer to these kind of questions and comments - it is morally wrong to steal software or to not abide by the restrictions placed on the end user by the software company. Unfortunately, this doesn't make the decision to pirate any less tempting.

If I pay for the software, I own it. I can install it on my property. The people behind these posts must work for Microsoft or Apple, I bet 99% of the people who buy programs have no idea "they are supposed to" buy a new copy of the same program for every system they own" ...yhea ok, in Apple and Microsoft's dreams maybe! lol🙄

 

[big]

>yhea ok, in Apple and Microsoft's dreams maybe!

in their wet dreams

 

[elgruga]

Morals and the law.......

Originally posted by alex_ant

The difference is that piracy is both morally and legally wrong whereas the current prices are only arguably wrong to some people who can't afford them.

LOL! - Alex-Ant - ENOUGH of your specious arguments!

Laws are made by rich people to protect their property. There is ZERO connection between law and morality, OK?
Morals are a kind of subjective notion based around whatever belief system you happen to 'think' is ok. OK?

Sometimes, Laws are based on morality.

I think that $700 for Photoshop is morally wrong, and in my book legally wrong.
I dont need you to tell me - "well just dont buy it then"
Thats an obvious solution, and one that is morally weak - but I happen to think that its morally WRONG to do what many large corporations are doing - see Enron, etc.

I have Apple software upgrade coupons sitting on my desk that are 2 f***ing weeks old! And guess what? They aint worth squat.
So why did Apple put them in the TiBook box? Because they used to do upgrades, and now its all just grab.

Some idiot on this forum said something like " It was a lousy consumer decision, but a great business decision" referring to the Apple Macworld debacle.

That is Bollocks. Shafting the customers (consumers) is good business? I find that MORALLY reprehensible, and also stoopid. Dont you, Alex?

Guess what? I dont want free software, I just want FAIRLY priced software.

I dont want a FREE lunch, I want a reasonably priced lunch.

I aint looking for a HANDOUT, I just want a fair shake.



Read a simple American history lesson - Grapes Of Wrath, Steinbeck.

We are in the beginning of a recession - and Apple is behaving like a bunch of scared businessmen worried that they might have to sell their Porsches.

Cry ME a f***ing river, baby!

Oh, and f**k bill gates and all his cash, and yes his needs ARE my business because he is a BAD dude and we have to try to stop people like that.

You dont get any rights of privacy when you are shafting people - see Adolf Hitler.

Gee, I guess we are back at morals and law again...!

 

[elgruga]

sail to cuba.....not necessary.

aaah, come'on , man!

Sail to Cuba?

Life doesnt have to be a choice between rampant insane capitalism and rampant insane communism.
We could just have a kind of decent society where there is a guarantee of health and education for all, and enough well-paid jobs to go around, and software at reasonable prices.

We are trapped in Apple's monopoly, as much as we are in M$'s monopoly.

What Apple seems to be doing is copying the M$ model, and that aint cool.

The market will one day be seen for what it is - a tragic gambling game that cares for no-one.

Dammit, those decisions at MWNY by Apple have got everyone at each others throats.

I apologise if my remarks have offended anyone (sorry Alex) - I really am pissed about this 10.2 no upgrade thing.

Dont get me started on .mac.........

 

[Choppaface]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Piracy = illegal.

blue is the best color in the world!!! ha ha you're wrong! 😀 😀 😀

but seriously, some things have more depth that that. speeding is illegal but do you speed? if something is illegal, then a society has decided that they don't want somebody to do that. that doesn't mean that doing something illegal is wrong or right, nor does it prove that it is in the best interest of the society or individual not to do things that are illegal. the arguement is not whether what he does is illegal, it is who is hurting who, and who deserves what. labeling something as illegal doesn't mean that all offenders always deserve the same punishment. somewhere there must be more depth, or the community is ignoring diversity.

In fact, he has a third option, which is to not pay for or use the software at all. Nobody is forcing him into using any software. If his job depends on the pirated software, his job depends on illegal piracy.

and nobody forces the software writer to write the software. "Nobody is forcing him [or her] into" writing "any software." everybody has to make a living. if you don't approve of how he makes a living, then try to improve his options, because he will not be able to live up to your expectations by himself. censure does nothing but hurt both parties.

I don't have a lot of money, but I want free access to every pay per view and premium channel on television. Does that give me the right to splice the cable line, run it into my house, and attach it to a descrambler? After all, I'm not technically taking anything from anyone - the cable company can't even tell I've done it. Does this make it okay, or right, or in any way not illegal? This is the equivalent of what mymemory is doing.
[/B]

the difference is that the cable company is thousands of miles away, on a different continent, far away from the juristiction of american morality. sort of like the issue with sat dishes in Canada, but that's a whole nother issue.... but if you don't want to do things that are illegal, that's fine, just grab a plow 😀

 

[AlphaTech]

Hey elgruga, way to go, contradicting yourself like that... 🙄

Originally posted by elgruga
There is ZERO connection between law and morality, OK?
Morals are a kind of subjective notion based around whatever belief system you happen to 'think' is ok. OK?

Sometimes, Laws are based on morality.

If there is zero connection between two items, then how could one be based on the other??? Seriously flawed logic in those statements.

As for the price of products like Photoshop, at least they have very reasonably priced version upgrades. Purchase version X (say 4) and get version Y (7) for $149. This has been the way that Adobe has worked for several years now. They offer reduced price/cost upgrades for all of their software (at least all that I have looked at). There was a time when PhotoShop cost only a few hundred dollars. If you purchased it back then, you had the chance to upgrade for reduced prices all along.

BTW, PS7 is selling for $609 right on the Adobe online store. I am not 100% certain, but I believe that if you have PS version 4 or newer, you qualify for the $149 upgrade (might be version 5 forward).

More then a few software companies have practices like that, reduced price updates (full version changes). I just wish that Apple would do the same for registered owners of their software. Hell, even knocking off 25% for people that went out and purchased 10.1 would be GREAT PR.